Update the bible/Koran

Title says it all.

How many unstable people have taken really suspect passages out of these two books and used them to inflict pain and suffering on their fellows?

I know what you're thinking. Unstable people would most likely find a way to do that without religion, and that is probably true, however..and this is a very important point.

They wouldn't have divine backing for their actions. A christian couldn't practice hatred towards ahomosexual person with backing from the bible, and a muslim couldn't blow themselves up, taking a busload of innocent people with them safe in the knowledge they have a whole heaven full of virgins waiting for them.

I don't need to list all the offensive lines from both these books, we all know what Ji'had is, and we've all heard the "eye for an eye" and " a man shall not lie down with another man" being spouted by fanatics.

Anyone who is a Christian or Muslim, should be ashamed their Holy books contain even a subtle reference to this kind of thinking. I'll go one further and say they are tacitly responsible for not forcing their religious leaders to cut all this crap out of their books and get them updated.

You always hear the religious apologists and moderates claiming;

"Oh, they were interpreting our book in the wrong way, the vast majority of our faith don't believe that is right"

Yeah, fair point but until you get your holy books sorted out and updated you will always have people using it's worst parts to justify hate crimes against people.

Christians who actually believe in love and Jesus dying for our sins should be out in then streets with placards protesting the bible.

get it sorted out and you'll see alot of people be faaaar more open to your faiths, which I assume you'd like.

Kevin,
While I understand your post and agree that people will always take something out of context and use it to their own benefit regardless of the text of it being the bible/koran or whatever. People are going to believe whatever they want and adjust the writings to their own beliefs. It is my belief that the just of the bible of what we know today has been changed so many times along the way anyways. There is no way after the many language changes that has occured and so forth to get an accurate original script. You have so many different faiths, branched from every thing and every culture.

It is my belief that if people just took the basic principles from the Bible (using this as reference because honestly know nothing of the Quran) that they could apply them to their own lives. Everyone wants to judge someone even though the Bible in theory says you shouldn't. Then there are people who believe that the saying "spare the rod, spoil the child" comes from the bible. When in actuality it doesn't, it was first mentioned in a poem of all things.
So my point is this, that the Bible/Koran do not need updated. I think the readers and the followers of either of these books should in other words "do their homework" and update their own knowledge of their beliefs. The "religion" factor is the problem. Culture and beliefs play little in it, the fact that divides us is the "religion" and what we are being told to believe. In my own opinion everyone has the same basic moral beliefs which fall back to " do unto others...." If you want someone to be nice to you, be nice to them, and nine times out of ten they will.

Just my opinions.

"The Passion of the Christ," Gibson says "This is a movie about love, hope, faith, and forgiveness

This movie was rated R because of the violence.
I took a young fugitive to see it on palm sunday and helped her turn herself in on good friday. She told me latter that that movie was the only R rated movie that could be shown to the prisoners in the jail she was in.

My point is that though the movie offended many Jews in was not contrary to any bible I have read
nor did it offend the lesbian that watched it with me

The young lady was also proud to have graduated from a theo-therapy class offered to her in prison
The most popular bible is the NIV which I believe is yet another translation

The bible isn't exactly a Year 8 maths textbook. Haha, just imagine if the Pope woke up and said, "yoohoo, just got notification from God that we really do need to have another look at Chapters 4 and 6. They're a little too wrong. Sorry, everyone, for the past 2000 years." Wouldn't do the religion any favours at all...though could be worth a shot for the sake of humanity at least.

Divine backing? People will always think there is something divine behind them, be it in the bible or not. There is always an excuse, a reason. You are quite divine, you were being divine when you proposed this idea.

Any concept based on the authority of mass indoctrination is prone to corruption, and I object to following blindly. This includes science, legislation, media, and other propaganda.

Also, I think a significant problem with many concepts of God is God's humanness- having feelings, features, cares, offspring, ability to love, forgive, condemn, punish God's own creations...this thinking and evaluating God can only be modelled after our own purposes- it is a touching reminder of human fragility.
Perhaps an absolute absolute is too difficult to imagine.

Well Rikki, asking people to really study their history is a good point, but lets be honest with the majority of religious people it's not going to happen.

If it did, there might be less of them.

I'm surprised no one seems to be in support of this. I'm not advocating the books be destroyed or completed gutted, just have all the problem references removed.

I don't need to offer any further proof of why this needs to happen than Muslim suicide bombers.

Well, if the Bible and Koran aren't the direct cause of fanatics, they are the justification for their actions.

Suicide bombers. The issue really ends there.

If anyone wants to explain to me how in the case of Muslim suicide bombers, religion isn't a direct and powerful contributing factor, I'd love to hear it.

Bad people are bad people, with or without religion. However, alot of human bahaviour is environmental and learned, and religious intolerance based off scripture could be removed from this equation giving millions of people a few less reasons to hate their fellow human beings.

Most religious people treat their holy books like a salad bar any way, so why not just go that one step further and demand all the bad stuff be taken out.

If you don't, then you give tacit consent to it being taken as gospel.

"Most religious people treat their holy books like a salad bar any way, so why not just go that one step further and demand all the bad stuff be taken out."

^^^ I am sorry Kevin but the statement of taking out the bad stuff out of these books, is like chopping off your nose to spite your face. Without bad one wouldn't know good. So taking the bad stuff out is like censorship. Which is something that I thought you were against. Boy I am confused.

BTW I am not Rikki, although our avatars are similar.

I think it's time we took responsibility for the bad effects our holy books can have, and accept the fact that even though most people ignore the bad stuff, it's there and it's;

A)no longer relevant (eg, stoning adulterers, men being superior, homosexual rights)

B)Used by people as divine justification for horrible actions.

I don't accept that the Bible wouldn't be as good a holy text if we took out all the negative socially reprehensible ideas and fables, it would be faar more acceptable. LoL, you don't see any modern million dollar selling self help book full of positive ideas...and hidden in there are lines and stories about kicking the crap out of dogs if they pee on your new rug...they would never get past their editors..or get banned from shops.

Why, because it's not acceptable as a spiritual message..forgive the akward comparision but you get my point.

I'm try to actually help religion here, by removing it's worst aspects and leaving only the good parts.

I'm going to smite you all.

: )

The irony is that there is a place in Iraq still called Babylon and it is one of the oldest civilizations written about long before the prophet Isaiah's peace was threatened by them
vengence is mine sayeth the Lord
The mission in Irag was named enduring freedom after Bush was advised that infinite justice would make him appear as if he were a divine judge

Death is evil, and it is clear that mother nature and God the Father allows it for the greater good, but it is a mystery to me why

Gandhi who was nominated for the N.P.P was once asked by a reporter what he thought about western
civilization. Gandhi smiled and said he thought it would be a good idea

God has became man was judged and put to death
and that great evil has become salvation

Every journey begins with a single step

Anyone who is a Christian or Muslim, should be ashamed their Holy books contain even a subtle reference to this kind of thinking."

Lol... Are you reading yourself? You're blaming books and simplifying its history... Interpretation is everything... Anyone can quote few lines to justify their actions.

Darwin's evolutionary theory has also been misinterpreted... Many can quote his view that women are biologically inferior to men... And lets look at social darwinism... Lets not forget eugenics which was associated with the holocaust...

Don't even get me started on homosexuality... Seeing as not long ago it was classed as a mental disorder as well as treated as deviancy...

The point is if you want to point the finger remember there's three pointing back at you...

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/isa13-14.htm

Its a prophecy Rikki... God didn't kill or plunder or even ravish them... Seriously you need to read all of it rather than quote verses without understanding it...

Noir, I'm not talking about creative interpretations of anything. Sure people can take an innocent enough passage from a book, holy or not and warp it to fit their cause, however with the Bible and the Koran in particular it's not reading between the lines or interpreting them.

It's just the lines, clear as day and there is no excuse for them.

"The extent of violence and bloodshed permitted in jihãd is also clearly stated in the Koran. The 5th verse of Sûrah Taubah makes no bones about the matter. Allah says in so many words:

“When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them, besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.”

This would be laughable as religious text if it weren't so current and dangerously relevant.

Qur'an 4:74 "Let those who struggle in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."

'I have been commanded to Fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'"

Maybe they never ravished their wives and killed their babies either

I would think the Babylonians would have an issue with that sort of thing

Brittness:

There are good and bad things to be found in any Holy Book. The Bible talks about despising people, hate of other tribes or countries, etc. Jesus says he comes not to bring peace, but a sword. I remember always being shocked by the man who threw his virgin daughters to a lecherous mob, to save the guests in his house - and this was treated as a pious solution. The fact as that the books were written at very specific times in history, and need to be understood in those contexts. Furthermore, people will always take things and skew them to their purposes. There are lots of good and wise things in the Bible as well... as there are in the Quran. Here's one verse:

"..Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom." (al-An'am 6:151)"

And another:

25:63:

The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!"

I haven't read the Quran either, but it's amazing what the Internet can do! Wheeeee!

When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them, besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.â??"

This would be laughable as religious text if it weren't so current and dangerously relevant."

It's great that you quoted the sword verse Kevin, because if we took into account the history... You'd see that this verse was response to those who broke the treaties placed between the muslims and pagans... If you read the next ayat it will explain...

"Muhsin Khan: And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not."
^^ It seems like defensive war rather than killing all disbelievers... We're in the 21st century... The past can't apply today..

For all the holy books have been written, rewritten and translated into so many languages that the original and the modern version of the book may well be a universe apart."

The Quran has stayed and read in only one language since its revealation ... So you can't really put all religious books into one category without understanding its history

"List of astrologers: Encyclopedia - Biblical Magi
In Christian tradition the Magi, also known as the Three Wise Men or Kings from the east, are Zoroastrian judicial astrologers or magi who according to Matthew 2:1 came "from the east to Jerusalem", to worship the Infant Jesus, him "that is born King of the Jews". Thus the magi that came from the east, from the Persian Empire, were the world's first religious figures to worship him. Among their gifts were chrismatic herbs for anointing him the Christ. Their traditional names are Casper, Melchior and Balthazar. ... "

I asked a priest once did he consider all belief in astrology sinful in view of the fact that the bible states that astrolgers came from the east. The priest quickly told me he believed the Magi were astronomers

What do yo call an astronomer that believes stars influence events on earth?

Bethlehem means "house of bread"
John 6:48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die

Only a fool could deny that the tide was turned at the beginning of the common era which was better known as the year of our Lord before the pseudo historians began to rewrite history

Would it be logical for me to assume that I did not have a great-grandfather because someone failed to record the time of his death accurately?

Would it be wise to believe anyone could prove anything by arranging words on a screen?

Is it not ironical that people have been asked to place their hand on the bible while swearing in?

Is it not the God in the bible that we in the bible belt are ask to swear to, in a court of law, so help me God?

Place your right hand on the Bible...but. U.S. Supreme Court rules Ten Commandments displays are not allowed at courthouses

The Quran is now being written (translated) into other languages. How else are they ever going to get converts from non Arabic speaking countries??"

The Quran is only ever recited in Arabic, made to understand in arabic and written in arabic...

Every muslim must read the Quran in arabic... It'll never change...

We can pretend to have the power to censor ancient wisdom or foolishness, but pretending is a pseudo art and the pseudo sciences are weaved into modern sciences

For what it is worth many have tried to prophecize how it will all end
Note: Mystery Babylon of the future (Revelation 17) will be Apostate Religion - probably a union of world religions - which will give its power to Antichrist, and is thus seen as an adulterous woman (spiritually unfaithful to God) riding on the beast
what's lost has been found and what's to come has already been

^^ Rikki... what I'm saying is that while the bible has been written in hebrew, latin and english...

The Quran has stayed in one language and its words untouched since its revealation... Muslims have always recited and memorised the Quran in arabic...

The one thing that all of us may agree on is that religion divides though the goal of any religion or science should be truth

A principle is either:

a descriptive comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption,
a normative rule or code of conduct, or
a law or fact of nature underlying the working of an artificial device

Most likely the fundanental law of gravity has not changed
We all need gravity in order to stand on principle
The one thing that an astronomer might agree with an ancient astrologer on is the star we call the sun influences the world we live in

Though the astrologers believed the earth and not the sun was the center of our solar system, the priciple of gravity has remained the same

The percieved truth is the only variable that changes. Truth is constant

There are always people who may be interested in learning about Islam and maybe even converting. many of their people are from different countries and do not speak Arabic."

The bible has been preached in churches or personally read and prayed in different languages... The Quran is preached in arabic, personally read in arabic and well you know the rest... translations are merely used for understanding... However recitation, prayer are always in arabic no matter the country...

Do you want to know why? Because the Quran was revealed in (you guessed it) arabic

Though the astrologers believed the earth and not the sun was the center of our solar system, the priciple of gravity has remained the same"

Don't you mean astronomers?

^ Rick - aha, that's where you are wrong, the prayers we pray and other religeos acts are in arabic and have verses and sura's of the quran in them, so you don't have to learn a new language to read the quran or do these religeos acts, you only need to memorise them in arabic and there is translation for understanding and only understanding.

As for the topic of this discussion I don't think I can convince you. But you cannot update the quran because if you actually read it and studied it piece by piece, word by word, letter by letter (letters mean something huge in the quran, as some verses start with a single letter or letters put together in a specific sequence) you would discover secrets of our time in them.

018.109 Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

I want to add something here, to us muslims the quran is not only a book of faith, it is the miracle which our prophet brought to this world, if you made research you'll notice, that while the bible has many versions and interpertations, the quran is one and only, it is stable and every quran in this whole entire universe has the exact amount of chapters, surahs, words and even the same amount of pages.

I know this is the argument you don't want to hear, but people who do these terrorist attacks and so on ARE NOT muslims, they are people who use the quran as a tool to make an excuse to why they do what they do. They do not have the ethics, humanity and morals of islam, they do not respect the quran or our prophet and they are not an example of who we are. Jehad is not another meaning of attack and distruct, it is another meaning of defending yourself and it does not nessessarily mean war, the people who do these bommings are commiting suicide which is forbidden in Islam and they will not have any virgins waiting for them on the other side.

Watch this...and then go lie down and let it sink in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgDI9bGQbCg&feature=related

gets super good at 3 mins+

Islam is like most other religions in that its young men and its new converts can so easily be convinced that only by fanatical acts will their religion be safe and prosper."

What?? Rikki you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about... Its quite evident that certain fanaticals don't speak for the rest... You can't generalise when you know nothing about their history...

As for translations its was made for understanding for those wishing to study it... The same goes for dua's and hadith...

Kevin... It looks like Christopher's example was taken out of context... But isn't he like the fanatics when he uses historical narrative in today's terms... It seems that people are not looking at history objectively... A shame

When the current Pope of the Christian Church says that Aids is bad, but Condoms are worse and effectively signs the death warrants of tens of thousands of people, backed up by Scripture...we have a problem.

When Homosexual people are the victims of hate crime and political inequality which has as one of it's main sources, religious intolerance and the backing of scripture..we have a problem.

When schools in America and now, to my horror, in Britain are debating or currently teaching intelligent design alongside evolution..we have a problem.

Faith, when it's personal and stays totally personal is fine..I defend your right to believe in spacemen or flying Monkey or Zeus..whatever so long as it doesn't have a negative effect on my fellow humans..I'm good with it.

But come on people, Christianity and Islam do not tick these boxes and it's high time we got them both sorted out and cleaned up.

You say that ordinary people do not support these fanatics, then stand up and say so publicly and loudly."

So we're suppose to appease certain people's islamphobic tendencies... Because really all it sounds like you're condemning and scoffing a religion based on the actions of the few...

I'm guessing you'd also scoff and condemn darwinism based on the actions of social darwinism... Am I correct in that assumption..

Fanatic terrorists are not only a threat to the Western world, but sometime in the future they may also prove to be a threat to the Islamic world too."
The threat to the western world is politics... This is what gave rise to varying problems...

If you bothered to read and not skim over it, you might have realised that I am not condeming Islam, the religion or any part of it. What I do condemn it the fact that no one appears to be prepared to publically criticise those that commit acts that are against the teaching of the Quran."

So basically we have to stand up and call out against the terrorists in fear that not doing so we are excusing and aligning in the murder of innocents... Are you kidding me?

Rikki... Naturally it is against Islam to murder and commit suicide... No reasonable muslim or any sane person would condone this action... So really its common sense...
Terrorist use religion as a platform for their own agendas... They project all the suffering happening in muslim countries to western countries... They recruit those psychologically, economically weak individuals with little to no education... If people want to equate terrorism with Islam without ever studying or learning about it... Then its a pity...

Stoners usually modify the bible while they are in the joint when rolling papers are scarce.

Everyone gets stoned one way or another

"When the current Pope of the Christian Church says that Aids is bad, but Condoms are worse and effectively signs the death warrants of tens of thousands of people, backed up by Scripture...we have a problem."

I could be wrong, but I feel like when a catholic fornicates, loyalty to the Pope is usually the farthest thing from his or her mind

AIDS is not as likely to be spread by loyal monogamous catholics

Anyone only interested in self gratification is not interested in what the Pope thinks about condoms

What I was thinking was that anyone commiting the sin of fornication is not going to think it is less sinful without a condom unless he or she is a complete idiot

monogamous
1 archaic : the practice of marrying only once during a lifetime
2 : the state or custom of being married to one person at a time
3 : the condition or practice of having a single mate during a period of time

It just takes more faith to believe the propaganda that the Pope meant to not use a condom so you can sow your wild oats

Lmao

Pope Benedict XVI has every right to express his opposition to the use of condoms on moral grounds, in accordance with the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church. But he deserves no credence when he distorts scientific findings about the value of condoms in slowing the spread of the AIDS virus.

I can't say that any organization is obligated to buy condoms for irresponsible people though
I would if I had the money
Catholism is not a democracy

By not speaking out against evil, then you give the terrorists the impression that you are supporting them. It is precisely your type of attitude that terrorists rely on, for they can say to their followers "Our people are not against us so they will do us no harm."

Oh so by that logic if I were sudanese, by not speaking out I'm aligning myself with the ethnic cleansing of the darfurians... Or if I was american, if I did not support Bush's invading Iraq and afghanistan, by not speaking out I'm basically supporting him... Nice logic you have there Rikki...Lol

Terrorists no matter their ideology will not listen to anyone because they believe that their right... You cannot protest common sense... And quite frankly I shouldn't explain my belief to soothe panicked islamophobic people who rather than blame the individuals involved blame the ideology...

People like me don't have to explain the obvious... But it seems that I explained to you a couple of times...Lol

"I am quite sure that people would have far more respect and maybe even wish to learn and understand Islam if the average believers of Islam spoke publically in there condemnation of violence."
That is kind of true, Muslims do not defend themselves and exclude the terrorists of their religion, but that is another topic. And we do have some people speaking out, but the effort goes to the wrong audience, because the only people who see that are the ones who agree with it. We should have a more wide protest on this topic, but then again it is partially the media's fault for looking for one side of the story and not the other.
"By not speaking out against evil, then you give the terrorists the impression that you are supporting them. It is precisely your type of attitude that terrorists rely on, for they can say to their followers "Our people are not against us so they will do us no harm."
Also true and we have a saying about that, our prophet (pbuh) said: "The one who speaks not of wrongdoing is equal to the wrongdoer himself", and also, "The one who defends not righteousness is a mute devil" and it's also true. We should be trying harder to get this point across to the world; we are not terrorists and people who do the bombings are not Muslims, they use our religion to do the ugliest acts in its name.
"Just to upset you. No religion is a democracy, their very nature must be dictatorial." I don't agree with this here, I say that my religion is a democracy; god has given us the right to do anything and everything we want, he has laid down rules for us to follow, because without rules we have chaos. That's why we have a constitution for every country; our books are our constitution in religion. As for the part that god dictates our lives, we believe that our god is superior, like no other and that is why he gets to choose and he doesn't confide in anyone, because he has no flaws. But our prophets did talk to god and they had messengers from him, he knows what is best for us and as for me I think god has made our religion just right, it preserves our rights and keeps them for us, it does not force anything on us and it defiantly doesn't make our life miserable. Islam has had democracy from ever since it was created; god introduced us to making community a part in politics and leading our country and putting down the foundation to that country, including rules and regulations. It encourages voting and making complaints and in it nobody is above the law, there are consequences to crimes no matter who the person is. It also permits freedom of speech and the equality of men and woman. In my opinion that is democracy in religion.

Dig it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhdonYOyWos&feature=related

and on the Koran..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTUXUbQr5mU&NR=1

Words can be weapons in the war on ignorance or building blocks for our future
We are in the middle of the age of communication and it seems the scientist are as divided on the issue of global warming as theology is on a moral code the world can live with.
In the acts of the apostles there was a Roman citizen who felt strongly that Christians were a threat to the Roman Empire and attempted to use the law of Moses to stone them. I guess you could say he was a stoner. This story has an amazing twist to it. Any volunteers to read these chapters in the bible and rewrite them to make them polictically correct?

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but it takes words to really screw me up

Stones have also been used for a foundation on which to build

Is the truth written in stone or on our conscience?

Micheal, I think you're going nuts again bro...: )

The debate is right here, and you're dancing all over the place, talking in a way I don't think anyone understands except you.

Get a grip laddy.