Religion =crawling..lets all jog shall we?

Yeah.

I firmly believe religion (and I include all the old school ones here, so Christianity, Islam etc) were a needed, but very basic and simple attempt by humanity to make sense of the world when we didn't know how anything worked.

It was our infant grasping of reason and logic, trying to fathom the wonders of space and disease and famine and the changing seasons!

We made our best guess, and it served us in a very basic way, it allowed us to crawl, to at least move in the right direction very....very slowly.

Now we know how the world works to a large degree and we don't need religion to explain the weather, or disease or death or the depths of human experience and mentality....we have, quite literally learned to walk without that crutch.

I think, for many people the call to leave behind the childish imaginings of religious faith is cry for us to pick up our pace and start jogging to a more advanced way of living, unhampered by ancient moralities and "big brother" dieties who stalk you not only in life, but even after you have died.

Anyone fancy a run?

I think there were discussion posts like this one before.
Basically what you're saying is religion is a human created conception of the meaning of life. But life hasn't really been explained... it is too broad to be explained. Besides many religions have concrete evedince (if not in your point of view, it is in theirs) that it comes from a god or higher forse. Most of the evedince is gibberish to people who do not believe in religion, yet they are tottaly convinced in it and they believe they are right on their behalf.
I will tell you what I told everyone else who opened a topic like this: Religion is too broad to be discussed and you can never fully understand it or grasp it's meaning. Unless you go through years and years of research... not to find some way to prove you're right - which is what everyone like you is trying to do - but to study the religion and associate it with common sence and look for patterns and evedence to prove that this religion has a legitiment core to it.
Like you would say that the patterns in different religions prove that they all came from one basic source and that that source is human, because of some kind of astrological old belief. Whereas I would say that god created this world a certain way and that he kept those patterns as proof that there is a god, because he created the stars and he created religion. There is no credibility and proof in you saying that religion - all religions - are false and they are a creation of man. Because even if there is evedence it depends on how you look at it. In the end religion is a matter of belief, not science.

No debating you is more of a run in the park....ha

Religion is not so cut and dried, yours is a very simplistic approach which in no way touches or refects on the intricacies of what religion has to offer todays society. Religion has evolved alongside mans achievements and in many ways has been instrumental in these advancements

Religion is far removed from the bone between the nostrils that you are insinuating

We already have one thanks, its called "The Club" lmao

About the time that the Ayatollah Komani was considered a threat to national security I recall a catholic priest saying "I know it sounds funny coming from a man in my vocation, but I believe some of the most dangerous people in the world are religious fanatics." I believe it would be wonderful if religious authorities had the innocence of a child.

I also found an interview with a monk to be very interesting. The monk said he got the feeling that most believe men who committed to a contemplative lifestyle in a monastery were running from something, The monk believed quite the opposite to be true. He said if you come to monastery to hide from something he was sure it would find you very quickly. Though I have not felt a strong calling to such an extreme, I believe I have been called to practice a faith to some degree

"No. I think what Kevin is saying is that religion was and still is a tool used by a few to purposely mislead and control the messes But in today's world we don't have to worry about it as much anymore for we or should I say ~they~ have a new tool called media! We are being blinded"

If this is what he's trying to say then I'm sorry. Because I have the same point of view. I agree with that because that only makes religion seem bad in everyones eyes and religios people become terrorists.
If that's how it is then lets run... but the title makes it seem like being religios is crawling, so that's why I understood it that way.
Let's see what Kevin has to say about it.

We all know modern religion, especially Christianity, was born out of sun worship right? You do all know that I assume, the Sun...the Son...the Sun of God..the Son of God.

I am not blind to the many positive effects of religion, it gives alot of people a moral framework, it provides an anchor and system for harsh events like death and it offers perhaps the most seductive deal anyone could ever offer a human being.

Live life according to these rules, and you will survive death and live forever.

Now, I won't list all the bad effects that are directly caused by religion, just turn on the news or read any paper.

But I repeat my initial point. Religion was, without a doubt humanities first blundering attempt to understand the world back when we worshipped the Sun as a god....it rose from the dead every morning bringing light and life and chased away the darkness (evil)..it was a guide, a saviour etc etc and it was followed about by the 12 constellations.

We can laugh at this now, but if you swap the Sun for Jesus and the 12 constellations for the 12 desciples, we're still looking to the sky for reason and purpose...and it's just as laughable to me based on the Sun, or the Son of God.

I feel sorry for anyone who is an adult and still believes in this stuff, I know that sounds massively condescending, but to me religious faith is no more rational or evidence based than Santa claus.

If anyone is interested, watch this...will take 9 minutes and you might find it interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw&feature=related

You shouldnt let it bother you so much kevin. religeon has entered its death throws and there is nothing tht can save it. look at it this way. three hundred years ago people like you and me where burned at the stake, while now there are many hundreds of thousands like us who have no fear in speaking out. in rebeling against the lies we have been force fed for so long. and look at the youth. in every new generation more and more of them are thinking for them selve and turning away from religeon. also look at how much power and controll religeon has lost in the same time. the pope was once more powerful than kings, but now all he rules is a few meagre miles. and in how any countries has religeon become all but seperated from the state. so take heart, religeon is dying, and while it wont happen in our life time it will still happen relatively soon

Amen Rocky..amen.

RickyH, Is there something in particular you know about that was inacurate from that movie? Something you could post a link too that proves it to be false, or out of date?

Does anyone here, who believes in Christianity not even pause for a second, when they realize just how many Sungods have almost the exact same basic birth and death story as Jesus? Doesn't that freak any of you out?

Does anyone think the astrological links and history of worship have NOTHING to do with the worship of jesus?..I mean really?

When I'm out of my nihilistic and existential moods, I tend to think that the degree of similarity between religions is one of its curious strengths. I think, as humans, we have a very very basic need to orient our lives and thoughts and perceptions around some sort of narrative. Facts don't make sense on their own, just like you can have no actual physical "point" on a graph in reality. Points on a graph need weight and surroundings and preferably lines drawn between them to make sense, just as the basic sense data we take into our bodies about the world around us needs contextualization in order to be perceived or understood. It needs some kind of story to make sense for us.

I think this need for narration is a particular need of humans. There's something going on in our minds and in our living that thirsts for a story. I think that need can be projected unto the biggest stories of our existence. We need to be able to have beginnings, and endings. There are repetitions of themes throughout mythology and religion because they are extensions of ourselves. So we have stories about birth, aging, love, murder, redemption. It's childish only when you see it like a disillusioned adolescent who, being older now, and "quite grown up," scorns his previous beliefs.

Whatever else God is or isn't, religion - that thing that derives from our need to understand - is a natural, essential part of human existence, because humans are not, and never will be, or in my opinion never ought to be, purely scientific beings. There's more to a life and there's more to a soul than a cold string of empirical facts.

So, Sibby do you not think it is very odd that the Jesus story, of his birth and life has been the story, almost event for event in many causes of several other sungods?

Horus
Attis
Krisha
Dioysus
Mithra

and please don't go to Wikipedia to check this out, thats like asking your mate Dave down the pub for a quote to use in an essay.

I understand humans need to an objective correlative, and for myth and story telling to carry fable and carry the history of our people, I respect that.

What I'm saying here, is that we can have all that without it needing to be based on a religion, and one whose central figure, Jesus has a story which was ripped off from other "messiah's" going as far abck as 3000Bc. If I believed wholeheartedly in a religion based on the life of a man, and I found out his story, which I took to be a unique reason for the whole religion, was in fact copied, almost event for event from many previous religions and faiths...I'd be rather concerned about the validity of the book I was basing my worldview on.

Oh and RickyH, this is for you. All the books used as references for the religious section of Zeigiest...feel free to check they are all real acredited books from scholars and professors in their field.

[S1] - Singh, Madanjeet: 'The Sun- Symbol of Power and Life, UNESCO Pub., 1993
[S2] - Krupp, Edwin: In Search of Ancient Astronomies, Mcgraw-Hill, 1979
[S3] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds, DODO Press, Chaper III: "The Symbolism of the Zodiac
[S4] - Hall, Manly P.: The Secret Teachings of All Ages, 1928. Page 53-56 [Chapter: "The Zodiac and Its Signs]
[S5] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan & Christian Creeds, 1920. Page 36-53 [Chaper III: "The Symbolism of the Zodiac]
[S6] - Acharya S.: Suns of God, Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. Page 60-85 [Chaper III: "The Sun God"]
[S7] - Hazelrigg, John.: The Sun Book, Health Research, 1971. Page 43
[S8] - Acharya S.: Suns of God, Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. Page 86-95
[S9] - Olcott, William Tyler : Suns Lore of All Ages, The Book Tree, 1914. Page 157
[S10] - Mackenzie, Donald: Egyption Myth and Legend, 1907 Page 163
[S11] - Churchward, Albert: The Origin & Evolution of Religion, Page 48, 51
[S12] - Acharya S.: Suns of God, Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. Page 92, 113
[S13] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Page 257-259
[S14] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 39-40
[S15] - Septehenses, Clerk De.: Religions. of the Ancient. Greeks, p. 214.
[S16] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 327-328
[S17] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 40
[S18] - Hall, Manly P.: The Secret Teachings of All Ages, 1928. Page 53-56 [Chapter 7: "Isis, the Virgin of the World"]
[S19] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 12-13
[S20] - Jackson, John: Christianity before Christ, AAP, p111-113
[S21] -Walker, Barbara: Women's Encyplodia of Myths and Secrets, p. 748-754
[S22] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 56-61
[S23] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 613-620
[S24] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 614
[S25] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 600-607
[S26] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 256, 273
[S27] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 623-661
[S28] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Page 626
[S29] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 74-75
[S30] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Page 115
[S31] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 43-47
[S32] - Acharya S.: Suns of God , Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. Page 93
[S33] - Churchward, Albert: The Origin & Evolution of Religion, Page 135
[S34] - Bonswick, James: Egyption Belief and Modern Thought, p. 157
[S35] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Page 628-629
[S36] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 222- 223
[S37] - Bonswick, James: Egyption Belief and Modern Thought, p. 150-155, 178
[S38] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Page 107-108
[S39] - Frazer, James.: The Golden Bough, Touchstone, 1963. Page 403-409
[S40] - Jackson, John: Christianity before Christ, AAP, p. 67
[S41] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 190-191
[S42] - Berry, Gerald: Religions of the World, B&N, p.20
[S43] - Weigall, Arthur: The Paganism in our Christianity, Thames & Hudson, 1999 p115-116
[S44] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds, p 12
[S45] - Acharya S.: Suns of God , Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. Chapter 7
[S46] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 113-115
[S47] - Wilkes, Charles (translator): Bhagavat-Geeta, 1785 p 52
[S48] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 278-288
[S49] - Freke & Gandy: The Jesus Mysteries, Three Rivers Press, p. 29, 33, 38, 48, 56
[S50] - Frazer, James.: The Golden Bough, Touchstone, 1963. Page 451-452, 543
[S51] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Page 111-113
[S52] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 193
[S53] - Weigall, Arthur: The Paganism in our Christianity, Thames & Hudson, 1999 p220-224
[S54] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds, DODO Press, p10
[S55] - Freke & Gandy: The Jesus Mysteries, Three Rivers Press, p. 33, 42
[S56] - Frazer, James.: The Golden Bough, Touchstone, 1963. Page 415-420
[S57] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 223
[S58] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Page 118-120
[S59] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman
[S60] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds, DODO Press, p16-17
[S61] - Charles F. Dupuis : Origine de Tous les Cultes, Paris, 1822
[S62] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 12-13
[S63] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 140-146
[S64] - Irvin & Rutajit: Astrotheology and Shamanism, The Book Tree, Pages 25-26
[S65] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds, DODO Press, p 17-18
[S66] - Frazer, James.: The Golden Bough, Touchstone, 1963. Page 391
[S67] - Moor, Edward, The Hindu Pantheon, Simpson, p154
[S68] - Maxwell, Tice, Snow: That Old-Time Religion,The Book Tree, p43
[S69] - Freke & Gandy: The Jesus Mysteries, Three Rivers Press, p. 33
[S70] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 27
[S71] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Pages 189-190
[S72] - Acharya S.: Suns of God , Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. p199,220-221,352-353
[S73] - Frazer, James.: The Golden Bough, Touchstone, 1963. Page 415-417
[S74] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Pages 154-155
[S75] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 10, 98
[S76] - Maxwell, Tice, Snow: That Old-Time Religion,The Book Tree, p41
[S77] - Roy, S.B: Prehistoric Lunar Astronomy, Institute of Chronology, New Delhi, 1976 p.114
[S78] - Bonswick, James: Egyption Belief and Modern Thought, p. 174
[S79] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 495-508
[S80] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 483-492
[S81] - Olcott, William Tyler : Suns Lore of All Ages, The Book Tree, 1914. chapter IX
[S82] - Hall, Manly P.: The Secret Teachings of All Ages, 1928. Page 183
[S83] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 496
[S84] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Pages 166-183
[S85] - Higgins, Godfrey: Anacalypsis, A&B Books. Pages 781-782
[S86] - Anderson, Karl: Astrology of the Old Testamate, Health Re. p18
[S87] - Jackson, John: Christianity before Christ, AAP, p. 185
[S88] - Campbell, Jospeh: Creative Mytholigy- The Masks of God, Penguin, p 24-25
[S89] - Churchward, Albert: The Origin & Evolution of Religion, p 363
[S90] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.218
[S91] - Maxwell, Tice, Snow: That Old-Time Religion,The Book Tree, p41
[S92] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, John 9:5
[S93] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Matthew 28:6
[S94] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman John 14:3
[S95] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, 2 Corinthians 4:6
[S96] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Romans 13:12
[S97] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, John 3:3
[S98] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Mark 13:26
[S99] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, John 3:13
[S100] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, John 19:5
[S101] - Hall, Manly P.: The Secret Teachings of All Ages, 1928. Page 53-54
[S102] - A.L. Berger; Obliquity & Precession for the last 5 million years; Astronomy & astrophysics (1976), p127
[S103] - Campion, Nicholas: The Great Year: Astrology, Millenarianism, and History in the Western Tradition, Penguin
[S104] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_of_the_equinoxes
[S105] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Aquarius
[S106] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Exodus 32-34
[S107] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Exodus 32:27
[S108] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_calf#The_Sin_of_Idolatry
[S109] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.146
[S110] -Wagner, Leopold: Manners, Customs, and Observances; Jewish Fasts and Festivals 1894 # 403
[S111] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds, DODO Press, p16-17
[S112] - Acharya S.: Suns of God , Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. p 127
[S113] - Hall, Manly P.: The Secret Teachings of All Ages, 1928. P 55
[S114] - Dowling, Eva S. A, Ph.D: Scribe to the Messenger, p 6
[S115] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds, DODO Press, p 30
[S116] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, John 6:9-11
[S117] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Matthew 4:19
[S118] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.146
[S119] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.146-147
[S120] - Leedom, Tim.: The Book your Church Doesnt Want You to Read, Truth Seeker,. p.25
[S121] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Matthew 28:20
[S122] - Maxwell, Tice, Snow: That Old-Time Religion,The Book Tree, p44
[S123] - Churchward, Albert: The Origin & Evolution of Religion, p 282, 366
[S124] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 1-10
[S125] - Massey, Gerald.: Lectures, A & B, p 7-8
[S126] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.265-274
[S127] - Wells, G.A.: Who was Jesus?, Open Court 1991 p179
[S128] - Jackson, John: Christianity before Christ, AAP, p. 109-118
[S129] - Budge. Sir. E.A. Wallis: The Gods of the Egyptions Vol I, Methuen and Co. p566-599
[S130] - Churchward, Albert: The Origin & Evolution of Religion, p 394-403
[S131] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 122,190,213,222,256,327,363,476,484
[S132] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.115-116
[S133] - Jackson, John: Christianity before Christ, AAP, p. 110-112
[S134] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 32-35
[S135] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Page 663-671
[S136] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.237-239
[S137] -Walker, Barbara: Women's Encyplodia of Myths and Secrets, p. 315
[S138] -Thompson, R. Campbell (tr. by ): The Epic of Gilgamish, 1928
[S139] - Budge. Sir. E.A. Wallis: The Babylonian Story of the Deluge and the Epic of Gilgamish, 1929
[S140] - Teeple, Howard M.: The Noah's Ark Nonsense, Religion and Ethics Institute, 1978
[S141] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Exodus 2:1-10
[S142] - Blavatsky, H. P.: The Secret Doctrine Vol 1, p 319-320
[S143] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.241-243
[S144] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Exodus 20:2-17
[S145] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 55-61
[S146] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.241
[S147] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 60
[S148] - Graham, Lloyd, Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, Citidel, 1991, p. 147
[S149] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 526-528
[S150] - Budge. Sir. E.A. Wallis: The Book of the Dead, Gramercy, Chapter CXXV
[S151] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 319-321
[S152] - Budge. Sir. E.A. Wallis: The Book of the Dead, Gramercy, p66
[S153] - Budge. Sir. E.A. Wallis: The Book of the Dead, Gramercy, Chapter CXXV
[S154] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, p99-148
[S155] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, p84, 197-198,200, 202, 213, 215
[S155] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, p888-893
[S156] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 181-205
[S157] - Maxwell, Tice, Snow: That Old-Time Religion,The Book Tree, p51-53
[S158] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, p942, 951-952
[S159] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 85-87
[S160] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Book 4, p149-196
[S161] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics , p92 180, 192, 26-266
[S162] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.237-239
[S163] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World , Cosimo, p130, 228, 274, 584-585, 859, 870, 880
[S164] - Olcott, William Tyler : Suns Lore of All Ages, The Book Tree, 1914. chapter IX
[S165] - Bonwick, James: Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought, C. Kegan, 1878, p.237
[S166] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, p888, 797 [* also see S163]
[S167] - Martyr, Justin: First Apology / The Apostolic Fathers: Martyr and Irenaeus by Philip Schaff. Eerdmans Pub.
[S168] - Martyr, Justin: I Apol., chs. xxi, xxii; ANF. i, 170; cf. Add. ad Grace. ch. lxix; Ib. 233.
[S169] - Freke & Gandy: The Jesus Mysteries, Three Rivers Press, Chapter 3 -"Diabolical Mimicry"
[S170] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 466-507
[S171] - Churchward, Albert: The Origin & Evolution of Religion, p 404-409
[S172] - Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds, DODO Press, Chaper II & III
[S173] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, p563-622
[S174] - Acharya S.: Suns of God , Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. Chapters II, III, IV
[S175] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Gen. 30:22-24
[S176] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Matt. 1:18-23
[S177] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Gen. 42:13
[S178] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Matt. 10-1
[S179] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Gen. 37:28
[S180] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Matt. 26:15
[S181] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Gen. 37:26-27
[S182] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Matthew 26:14-15
[S183] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Gen. 37:28
[S184] - King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman, Matthew 26:15
[S185] - Murdock, D.M. - Who was Jesus?, Steller House Publishing, Chapter "Extrabiblical Testimony"
[S186] - Remsburg, John E.: The Christ Myth, Nuvision Pub, p 17-30
[S187] - Freke & Gandy: The Jesus Mysteries, Three Rivers Press, p. 133-139
[S188] - Doherty, Earl: The Jesus Puzzle, A&R,p78
[S189] - Acharya S.: Suns of God , Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. p381-388
[S190] - Doherty, Earl: The Jesus Puzzle, A&R, Chapter 2
[S191] - Freke & Gandy: The Jesus Mysteries, Three Rivers Press, Chapter 7
[S192] - Murdock, D.M. - Who was Jesus?, Steller House Publishing, 2005
[S193] - Remsburg, John E.: The Christ Myth, Nuvision Pub, Chapter 1
[S194] - Allegro, John - The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, Prometheus Books, 190-203
[S195] - Massey, Gerald. : Lectures- Gnostic amd Historic Christianity,Cosimo Classics, p. 73-104
[S196] - Freke & Gandy: The Jesus Mysteries, Three Rivers Press, p 89-110, 253-256
[S197] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. p.340-342

I find the similarities of religions as interesting as the similarities of the pseudo sciences of astrology and alchemy to astronomy and chemistry. I just need to figure out whether mercury is a Roman god, an element, or a planet in our solar system. The natural world depends on systems and most cultures have a system of language. In the systems of measures it is difficult to measure divinity by the standard of a king's foot.

We have measured time by the birth of our Lord, though the historical event of the incarnation has not been held sacred by all kings

Some kings built pyramids that resembled the Tower of Babel to reach egocentric immortality or stardom.

Were the three kings the stars of the story that began the "Common-Era" more commonly known as "The year of our Lord,"before history was rewritten?

Books are not proof, it takes faith to believe.

"So, Sibby do you not think it is very odd that the Jesus story, of his birth and life has been the story, almost event for event in many causes of several other sungods?"

No, I don't think it is odd. I think it makes the most sense in the world, actually. Which is what I was eventually trying to get around to in my long-winded way up there. The stories line up because they are given form through us. To me, though, that doesn't make them any less real or important.

"The stories line up because they are given form through us. To me, though, that doesn't make them any less real or important."

Wow, you are so utterly correct about this. To me though that sounds like you are admitting there is less of a divine influence in how Jesus and all the other sungod myths came to be believed, and more of a manmade origin...would that be fair?

I understand a person's faith is, probably now more than ever in history, about personal experiences and emotions rather than a blind adherance and lack of education and understanding. I've debated some amazingly intelligent people about religion, and it always come down to their personal experiences...usually highly emotional ones, which of course can't be disproven by historical facts.

I would say though, in the case of the Jesus myth, and the Bible that spawned it if enough solid evidence can be shown that perhaps the central fable of the book on second look, isn't quite as original or divinely ordained as previously thought..IE, more people accept Christianity is basically a complete rip off of Egyptian faith (the commandments too) then where does that leave believers?

How can a person still believe as strongly as before when there is startlingly strong evidence the very core of their faiths holy book is a 5th hand version of older religions, and therefor is even less likely to be true.

Personal experience and emotions win every time...but for me, when the source and basis for these experiences it shown to be at least, partially false...the whole thing becomes at least partially false.

I hate it that so many good people can feel real things based off a horrible lie.

"in the case of the Jesus myth, and the Bible that spawned it if enough solid evidence can be shown that perhaps the central fable of the book on second look, isn't quite as original or divinely ordained as previously thought.."

I don't think the Jesus story is very original in the Bible to begin with, even that is shaped to fit the people who tell the story, that's why you don't get to hear much about his female disciples or his relationship with Mary Magdalene. Jesus is much to asexual to me though rumours of sexual rites have floated through many centuries of air.

"I hate it that so many good people can feel real things based off a horrible lie."

They're probably thinking the same thing about you Kev lol For some no matter what is proven or disproved, their beliefs are truth to them.

Kevin "then where does that leave believers?" personally i think it will still leave them in the same place. no matter what you prove nor how irrefutably you prove it, true believers will still carry on believing no matter what. it is kind of the definition of belief, to know that something is true(wether it is or not is immaterial) despite lack of proof, contradictions or simple logic. and for alot of believers i think taking there belief away would be worse than death for them. they can see how messed up the world is, how messed up there lives are, how they have hurt people they love and themselves, how they no longer even have a clue who they really are etc etc and the only thing they have left is there belief. take it away and they would have nothing . that is why they will fight so rabidly and blindly to protect it, even if they know somewhere deep inside it is a lie. a lie is still all they have.

now i dont know if you were raised christian, but by how much you hate it i would guess that you where. am i right?

Faith is above reason and imagining men of faith as blind and cripple, in my opinion, can be misleading
Then again humility is a virtue

Well said dear poet.

Illuminati - "Arguments cannot be answered by personal abuse.... Should it turn out that I am the worst man in the whole world, the story of the flood will remain just as improbable as before, and the contradictions of the Pentateuch will still demand an explanation". -- Robert Ingersoll, Some Mistakes of Moses

have you ever wondered why the worse a country is the more religeos it usually is. it is because it makes them more docile, more accepting of the unacceptable. it makes them believe that this life isnt really real, that they are being tested and as long as they are good they will go to a paradise for ever and ever. and i hate that to the core of my soul. if people stopped caring so much about the hereafter ,they would give more of a damn about now if they knew this was the only life they had. if they didnt believe this life was just a test they would be more inclined to try improve it. that is why i hate religeon.

and no my life isnt perfect. i dont have all the answers and i sure as hell dont know what the ultimate truth is, but i am working to better myself. i have no belief in a benelavent god, so i dont just pray to him for help. the only person who has any chance of making my life better is myself. i dont believe in heaven so i am trying to have the best life right here and now. and i hate religeons, they are a drug more addictive than heroin that perants seem convinced to force on there kids. have you ever wondered why there are no religous children, only children of religous perants. if god is such an obvious thing then why must we brainwash our children to believe

and for"There are at least 4 billion believers on this planet
according to you they are all dumb idiots, hurting others and the world" i didnt say that but my answer is yes. how many times as religeon been used as an excuse for war. leaders have never said " you know guys. those people in X are just like us. they are trying to live there lives as best as they can and have families and hopes and ambitions like any one of you here. but they also have gold and iron mines so why dont we go over there and savagely murder them and steal all they have." no they say something alone the lines of " do you see those godless heathens, they are a plague on the world, they worship devils and false prophets. it is our god giving duty to wipe them out and make ourselves rich off there ill gotten gains" or how about the salem witch trials, where millions of woman where turtured and murdered because people allowed religeon to determin there morals, there basic sense of right and wrong. as contrary to what is often argued, religeon is not the source of morality. it is the death of it . it is where people allow some man made book to tell them what is right and wrong, instead of following what there own heart tells them.religeon has proved time and again that it can turn relatively sane people into the most depraved and self rightous monsters capable of any evil without even a hint of remorse as it absolves them of all guilt and blame as they are only following gods word. and who can deny gods word.( and if anyone did they are labeled an heretic and killed 2 ) it would actually be funny if it wasnt so damn tragic

and so your friend is going to kenya to build a school.
big godamn deal hey. she is going to be there for what 6 months, a year maybe 2 at the outside? then she is going to come back feeling so impressed with herself. at how much she sacrificed for others lol. if she was going there for the rest of her life i would be impressed. otherwise it is just not realy real. its like shark diving in a cage. she knows she is only going to be there for a short period of time then abandon it all to come back to her comfortable home. she knows she can pull out anytime she likes.

and furthermore i take it your christian arent you. if so have you explained to your heretic friends how they are going to go to hell and suffer for all eternity. how that what they believe is evil and the work of the devil. that all there beliefs are lies and the only true way to salvation is through jesus christ our lord. have you tried to convert them every day to your way of thinking. if not then why not. is it that you dont really like them and dont mind the thought of them suffering in eternal hellfire. or is it simply that deep down you dont really believe in it either. and if your not christian, then why havent your friends tried to convert you every day for the same reasons. could it be they dont trully believe

"All of my friends are believers, some of them are Muslims Some of them are Jews or Christians and I bet hat they have achieved more in life helped more ppl And understand life better that you ever will "

Shame on you Illum for speaking like this a member of this website, and a from a moderator too, tsk tsk. Can I ask you not post anymore in this thread if you can't keep it civil, cheers. Personally insulting someone you don't know, and assuming anything about how successful or benificial their lives are is really, really rude.

Rocky, as it happens I was a christian when I was a lad, though of course being raised with the religion I had no life experience or knowledge to really consider it and was certainly not given any other options or choice in the matter. Growing up in Scotland I was painfully aware of how religion was a massive dividing force due to the violence in Ireland with the IRA, and of course the bombings that took place in London because of it.

It was only years later, after studying soiology, scottish history and psychology I developed a slightly deeper understanding of how religious faith effects people and places, and how it doesn't serve anyone in a way that isn't better served by other more rational, modern and socially benificial ideas.

Thought so. as i have found the only people more vocal against it than brainwashed children, in a religous society, who have finally opened there eyes. are the brainwashed sons and daughters of preachers who have finally opened there eyes.

and i know what you mean. i was raised a christian 2 with absoloutly no say in the matter. and i really did believe untill i was about 13 and i started to wonder why there where so many different types of christianity. it wasnt simply good enough to be cristian, you had to be catholic or baptist or whatever. and every one of them believed the other was wrong and going to hell. so i thought i would read the bible to see what it had to say, after all it is the "authentic " word of god. got to the end of it a few days later and i could only shake my head in wonder how anyone could trully believe that pile of lies, contradictions and cruelty. being happily none christian ever since.

and kevin let illum say what she wants. i really dont mind at all. coming from a religous backround i have had hundreds of people resort to personal insults and name calling because deep down they know what i have said makes some sense.i actually welcome it. it means i have touched a nerve through there armour of belief

Kids and desperate adults will believe anything. We all know Santa Claus isn't real, and as adults we understand this because of the impossible nature of a man who flies around the whole world in one night delivery presents to children (not those in 3rd world countries though). We laugh, once we're grown up at the notion Santa can know all the things we have done good and bad all year...it's childish nonsense of course.

Kids don't have that experience, or knowledge of the laws of nature/physics. They accept what they are told. It's the same with religion.

Religion shouldn't be taught to anyone until they are 18 years old, when their heads aren't soft on top and they have some thinking and experience to make an informed choice. If that were to happen you'd see a massive change in not only the religions of the world, who'd have to seriously update their archaic holy books, but you'd also see a whole lot less zealous and fundamentalist actions of violence.

I have never met anyone who was a devout Christian, who either

A) wasn't raised in the religion from birth

B) didn't take it in during some drug/marriage breakup/death..

Seriously, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but if you weren't raised in it or didn't turn to it when life got really depressing and you couldn't hack it alone...I don't see how anyone could swallow this stuff.

It's santa for adults.

You might see it that way Kevin, but others see it as enlightment and being free of all materialistic views. As for people either being raised in religion from birth or comming into it after a dramatic event or experience, the quran already says that, so it isn't something new. But if you look at the world, I've heard of many people who came into religion because they felt it was the rational thing to do. If you all know "Baba Ali" on youtube you'll know that he came into islam because he was seeking the truth and after research he was convinced that Islam was the religion for him. Here he wasn't raised into the religion, nor did he come into it because of a dramatic event or experience.
I've already said this many times, but I'll say it again. You keep taking other peoples research and they have your opinion and have proved it already, unless you look for the truth yourself and go through years of reseach on religion and not on proving that religion is a hoax then you might get to some convincing result that you can argue.

"Wow, you are so utterly correct about this. To me though that sounds like you are admitting there is less of a divine influence in how Jesus and all the other sungod myths came to be believed, and more of a manmade origin...would that be fair?"

Maybe. I guess what I believe is that there's a lot more to humanity and to existence than the things that have been shown to be scientifically proven, because science by its nature can only reach one sort of truth.

I do think there are aspects of religion that are entirely manmade. I suppose that's natural. But if there is something like what you are calling "divinity," then I think it's something moving in the world at a very basic level, and only expressed through humans, in the only way they know how. Maybe our stories, told and retold, are our attempts to echo some truth that we can't comprehend.

That's why the "Christian rip-off" is, to me, not a dealbreaker, but rather something that makes sense. A picture of Jesus as someone who is in someway the non-physical "reincarnation" of earlier myths makes it more acceptable to me. The narrative has accumulated the weight of the past, and taken it all up into itself in order to be expressed again. The story is repeated because it works for us.

Of course, here where I see some spirituality at work, you might see politics or culture or mere fluke. And those could be right, who knows... I just think it somewhat ignores the mental and emotional potential of humans.

---------

Illuminati: ....really? Bad form, there.

"B) didn't take it in during some drug/marriage breakup/death"
They pretty much go hand in hand don't they?lmao

When people run to religion to escape drugs doesn't that say a lot about how dependable drugs are?

Isn't death as sure as taxes?

"No Kevin Shame on you and on Rocky !!!"

Very convincing argument you make there Illum, I loved the logic and evidence. Listen this topic isn't about offending people, and it's definately not about picking them out individually and trying to demean their lifes achivements Vs others, so please don't do that in my thread.

Back on topic.

So Sibby, are you saying that the clear similarity of Jesus and various other sungods isn't something that detracts from religions validity, but adds to it?

If I read you correctly, it's because you think, being there is a central truth that is...almost innate in humanity it will always express itself in the same kinds of stories? Is that what you mean?

It makes no difference to them if it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it all is lies. on the movie it talks about fundamental christians. and how they only believe the earth is a few thousand years old. and when asked about dinosaur bones, there stock answer is dinosaur bones where put there by god to test there faith. now these are the type of people we are dealing with. it is impossible to win an arguement with them no matter what. the word arguement comes from the latin arguer which means to persuade by reason. and these type of people are deaf to reason as it is the antithesis of faith and belief in many ways.

now i dont really care about the sun god myth that much. if christians could take off there rose tinted glasses of belief for long enough to realy read the bible. they would then realise that within that book alone is all the proof needed that either A) it was written by only men who had no more idea of what god really is than you or me and probably quite a bit less or B) god is an evil psycotic bipolar madman with a serious multiple personality disorder. i have read the whole bible more than once and how anyone can actually believe it is the word of god is beyond me. it is such a convoluted web of lies, contradictions, absurdities and evil that no-one in there right mind could but doubt it is the sole work of man

"Whenever we read ... the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize humankind. And, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel." -- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"Arguments cannot be answered by personal abuse.... Should it turn out that I am the worst man in the whole world, the story of the flood will remain just as improbable as before, and the contradictions of the Pentateuch will still demand an explanation". -- Robert Ingersoll, Some Mistakes of Moses

"The book, called the Bible, is filled with passages equally horrible, unjust and atrocious. This is the book to be read in schools in order to make our children loving, kind and gentle! This is the book they wish to be recognized in our Constitution as the source of all authority and justice!" -- Robert Green Ingersoll, The Gods, (1872)

"The God of the bible has got to be the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous, and proud of it, petty, vindictive, unjust, unforgiving, racist". -- Richard Dawkins, The Root of All Evil?

"Power-mad, belligerent, masochistic, petty, woefully insecure, extremely dangerous and unpredictable (and seemingly not too bright) Yahweh exhibits all the worst attributes of man." -- Brendan Powell Smith, creator of the Brick Testament

"It makes no difference to them if it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt"
Believe it or not, you would be at quite a disadvantage testifying as to the lies in the bible here. When you are sworn in you are asked to put your left hand on the bible and raise your right hand. repeat after me . do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?

Lol. that could be a bit of a problem couldnt it.

now looking over what i have said i feel people will think i am attacking belief indiscrimantly. i am not. belief is what makes us trully human. belief in a thousand different things from love, to happiness to sadness to truth and honesty and good and evil etc etc etc. now in a purely materialistic sense non of these things trully exist outside of the mind. and only intangibly within. you could crush up the entire universe and still not be able to show me one molecule of love nor one atom of truth. but that dosnt mean these things are not as real to the person experiencing them as this chair is i am sitting on. belief is what makes us more than simply complex machines.

now i dont have a problem with the idea of god. only with dogmatic religeons that lie to us saying they know the ultimate truth. and that the only way to find god is by believing and folowing whatever they say without question. what they say is perverted as there is no ultmate truth.what is true today may not be true tomorrow. any so called ultimate belief only stagnates and begins to become corrupt, while my personal beliefs changes and grows as i do, as god lives within us, not without. and like beauty or love he does not actually exist, but that does not mean he is not real. a person has to look within not without to find god. and like true happiness or love, he means a different thing to every one of us. my truth of god will be very different from your truth of god. that does not mean they are not both equally true. every body has to find god on there own. and while it is a dark and lonely path and we all crave for someone to lead us, but all enlightened prophets have ever produced of there followers is benighted slaves.as while they may have found god it is there god alone and cannot be shared with anyone else anymore than i could share my love of my mother with anyone else, even if i wanted to. it is a personal thing to me alone and cannot be giving away in any form. i could try to describe and explain it to you and you could draw many paralels with your own love for your mother. but in the end it is still unique to me

now i realise how i have attacked the bible. but only because so many people believe it is the gospel truth. they swallow the good in it as well as the evil with no discimination at all. if people read the bible as a work of fiction with some history throwing in i would have no problem with it. and would even recomend it as a study of human thought and mental and social evolution.with some trully beautiful morals throwing in amounst all the lies and evil. one of my favourite passages out of the bible is
mathew
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven
-jesus is saying nothing about religeon nor belief. he is saying to simply be a good person and you will begin to find god. and if every person would follow these simple commandments, then we would go to heaven. heaven upon earth and we would have the most precious treasures ever. hapiness, peace and contentment

now make of what i have said what you will. i am not trying to preach for as i said there is no ultimate truth nor belief nor god. all these words describe is a journey, not a destination

Dear Kevin,

Yes, that's right, I think : )

Love,

Sibby

I bet Sibby could convert me to anything if she had that lipstick on.

RickyH, yeah I know what you mean. I have done a decent amount of reading on religion, though certainly from that list linked to the documentary, I haven't read one book, but I just wanted you to see that it was a serious piece of work properly backed up and referenced, and not some wacky student film.

I'm well aware of how important it is to not believe everything you read or see, lol you could say that is a massive part of the point of this thread. If people think I'm misguided or Naive for believing the theories of that amazing film "Ziegeist", which makes no fantastic claims...then how do you all think I feel about people who believe in a religion like Christianity, which does make some rather fantastic claims, with no proof.

There is alot of evidence other messiah's shared the same basic story as Jesus.

There is alot of evidence our modern worship of Gods with names and stories was born from primative Sun worship and astrology

There is no proof I've ever read about or been told about that supports the more fantastical claims of the Bible, such as the miracles, life after death..hell and heaven etc etc. Jesus might have been a real man, possibly even a wise teacher ahead of his time and I'm all about taking his words of love and compassion as a moral example, even though I think there are far more impressive examples in recent history we know to be true for that.

If the bible was just a story about a lovely man who walked around teaching people, sharing stories and fighting injustice and cruelty, I'd be all about supporting it.

Thing is, the bible is 95% nonsense, in my opinion and nothing anyone has ever said has made me think otherwise...there are better religions out there, if you must believe in something, swap your christianity to Budhism!

I'd love to see someone justify violence or hatred against gay people/other religions using that faith.

Anyway I went to church a few days ago and was very surprized to hear the priest compare John the baptist to John Lennon

In the gospel according to luke the baptist was imagining the improvements repentance in his surroundings would make, while Lennon was imagining a world not in need of spiritual guidance in his well known song "Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

http://vodpod.com/watch/1948253-bob-dylan-pope-live-bologna-97-knockin-on-heavens-door

The church has actually gotten more broad minded than PQ
Bob Dylan played for the Pope though he did not sing a single prophetic verse from "It's alright Ma
[ I'm only Bleeding"]
a bold attack on religion and politics

Most of you don't remember first hand when America was invaded by a British rock group who caled themselves Beatles The group was started by John Lennon
I seem to remember the moment that occurred on July 29, 1966, when the teenybop magazine "DATEbook" published an excerpt of an earlier John interview where he stated that the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus."
Or at least the controversy that followed
I recall the local parish priest commenting that the sadest part of the statement is that it could be true

In a world void of miracles the history of life could simply be viewed as infinite number of coincidenses. Mind in matter Matter in mind ceases to be important where the spirit is not present and the heart beats with a different rhythm

It is difficult sometimes to separate a man from a myth, but I thought that since John Lennon compared himself to Jesus, and I heard a preacher compare him to John the Baptist at church
I thought it would be fun to make further comparisons

January, Lennon's fellow student Stuart Sutcliffe suggested changing the band name to "The Beetles" as a tribute to Buddy Holly and The Crickets

After holly was killed in plane crash the beatles seemed to devour the crickets
The Baptist lived in the desert on a diet of honey and locust

Lennon was a forerunner to a force known as rock and roll
The Baptist was a forerunner to a force known as Christianity

Lennon got attention from people from all walks of life
The Baptist got attention from people from all walks of life

Lennon worked at world peace
The Baptist worked at spiritual peace

The attention led to Lennon's death
The attention led to the Baptist's death

"Human beings have always been mythmakers. Archaeologists have unearthed Neanderthal graves containing weapons, tools and the bones of a sacrificed animal, all of which suggest some kind of belief in a future world that was similar to their own. The Neanderthals may have told each other stories about the life that their dead companion now enjoyed. They were certainly reflecting about death in a way that their fellow-creatures did not. Animals watch each other die but, as far as we know, they give the matter no further consideration. But the Neanderthal graves show that when these early people became conscious of their mortality, they created some sort of counter-narrative that enabled them to come to terms with it. The Neanderthals who buried their companions with such care seem to have imagined that the visible, material world was not the only reality. From a very early date, therefore, it appears that human beings were distinguished by their ability to have ideas that went beyond their everyday experience."
Karen Armstrong

Of all the topics, issues or what ever you may call it in this world, the most difficult to rationalize is religion. As we know there have been more deaths attributed to religion than anything else.
What does that tell us? Our beliefs are the most important aspects of our lives? Ones we are prepared to die for? Forgetting the love we have for our immediate family, as I think that is separate to this equation, I don't think the Muslim suicide boomers can be included in this either although it is a pretty graphic example of what religious indoctrination can achieve on the ignorant.

No it goes much deeper that this, I think sibs touched on an important aspect of belief and faith and the need to narrate reason as a tangible thing! As for example the bible, of accumulated stories. Making Christianity almost a tangible object one we can carry with us, and over the generations with many telling's it has become an object of fact to many, does that describe the spirituality aspect of our belief, our soul, the uniqueness of us as individuals. Can any of us deign this aspect of our being? Whether agnostic atheist or religious? I think not, I think all living creatures have this uniqueness as individual organisms, our continued survival is dependant on it. As intangible as our beliefs are so is our awareness of this individualism, this thing we call our soul, and because of its intangibility it has always been linked with religion, when I feel the two are separate. Spirituality and religion are separate entities, I'm not religious but still carry this uniqueness of what is me, other than a mass of chemical reactions.

Our soul? how do we come to terms with something that can be neither seen, felt, described, imagined, explained? An awareness a fleeting flicker on the edge of our consciousness....this uniqueness that gives me purpose that makes me, me

I've seen my soul Nicko...yeah had an OBE and saw my spirit arm once.

It was like that film Cacoon, I swear to God man..just like that, only...less golden and more silvery..like, barley water in a ballon with small wispy lights moving around inside.

religion is dying out, which makes me very happy. Only place Christianity is growing at a decent rate is Africa where alot of people are very poor, desperate and badly educated.

go figure.

Cacoon is a 1985 science fiction film directed by Ron Howard about a group of elderly people who are rejuvenated by aliens

It seems Ron Howard has a talent for focusing on a sometimes blurred line between fact and fiction. In my personal experience I have noticed as much rhetoric within the scientific community as the religious community. I seem to see media attention given to global warming, and few can deny the political climate is heating up,though not all scientist can agree whether the overall weather is as well. The truth is it is hard to tell if the scientist are more easily persuaded by politics than actual data. The hard right American conservatives would rather not be seen as being more concerned with the bills with "IN GOD WE TRUST" printed on them than the fate of our planet, so they prefer opinions of the scientist that say Global Warming is a politically motivated myth, or mother nature must bear all of the blame. I must admit Kevin it warms my heart to hear you swear to God and put the blame were it belongs i.e. in human nature

"religion is dying out"

Is it really though Kev? And could it ever really die out completely? I am sure Christians thought they were doing away with Pagan religions, but they still exist centuries later. We'll never have a religion free world, people are drawn to it, they look for it, some depend on it like a drug. Any congregation numbers? Something showing a decline, that hasn't been picked up somewhere else, by people converting or new members joining?

Organized and dogmatic religeon is dying out in all developed countries. look at most of europe, uk or usa. how many athiests are there in these places compared to 200 years ago. in england christianity is all but dead. i know about 50 or so people relatively well. in the age goup of about 18 to 30. and of them there is only one that is christian. and he only became christian because he started going out with a christian girl.of my friend who go to college or school they say there is only maybe at most 5 % christians in them

"how many athiests are there in these places compared to 200 years ago."

But how much bigger is the population compared to 200 years ago? I don't know about over there, but here it does not seem to be dwindling at all, we've probably had 4 or 5 new churches built with more on the way in my own area and they all have decently sized congregations after only a short time in our community.