What is the difference ..between them and them

Now for some more religious thoughts..what is the difference between a believer who walks straightly for the love of GOd, and a person who doesn't believe in God yet do the right things, the right way..

Would it be his instinct ? or his morals..
Actually my question is, is it the same ?

Cause I think it's not..unbelievers who do the things for the sake of others would do it only cause their conscious calls them for it , or is it just more like their citizenship ..
(is that enough tho)

Cause regarding this, I have once heard a story about a building that has been on fire...and all the residents of the building been out, and one woman was crying out for her child who was stuck inside..
No body made a move, then one man out of a sudden crossed the flames and entered that building ..Every one out there was cheering for the man and his guts..calling for him and admiring his actions till he came out holding tightly his savings with both arms , leaving that kid to burn to death..

> As for a believer i think the fear and love for God..would have been stronger than his instincts and would have drove him to save the kid..rather than his savings.

In other words..lets forget about the belief of salvation etc..for a believer their is always a stronger reason to do the right thing, but I dont knw if that's how things go for a nonbeliever ..

NOTE: I respect all beliefs..it is not my business if you are a believer or not.

Hmm... I believe in Good, not God. The story you mentioned is interesting, however, I think you could just as easily find a story with a man (a non-believer man, we'll say) who walked into the building and rescued the kid.
People are inherently good. No, I can't see into others, but I can see into myself. I know I'm a good person and I live by a fairly strict set of morals... not commandments, but suffice to say they're similar.
I figure whoever wrote the 10 Commandments was writing virtues and vices based on unspoken morals that humans are innately aware of.

Heck, I don't know. I've taken too much Philosophy to be anything but Agnostic.

Yes thats what I mean..ppl are inherently Good.
BUT would it be strong enough..to do the right thing in situations like THIS...

That is my point if the same story was about a real believer.. would he rescue the kid..? despite the commandments .. and what they tell a believer to do

Here is an interesting question, that may or may not add something to this debate.

Write down for us, a positive moral action that could only be undertaken by a believer, and never by a non believer.

Got that?

Now, write down a negative moral action that could only be undertaken by believer, and not by a non believer.

It's pretty clear which question is easier to answer.

Questions aside, I think it's pretty clear which is the most moral;

Doing good out of a fear of divine punishment, or simply out of a concern for your fellow human beings.

Of course, doing good, not for Gods favour, but still with thought of reward or recognition is still morally suspect. The greatest acts are the unknown ones, done for personal reasons and kept personal.

There is a natural genetic inclincation to do good for each other. You can see this in animals and children, which you'd think would rule our celestial influence. Monkey's have died trying to save each other from drowing, children naturally try to comfort people who are upset.

Lovely topic, Nana.

I am a bit short on time, so I will keep it brief for now and return later.

Now for some more religious thoughts..what is the difference between a believer who walks straightly for the love of God, and a person who doesn't believe in God yet do the right things, the right way..

^^
The first person believes God is a force separate from Him, the second one is acting as an inseparable part of Him( maybe even without being aware of it). One does not have to believe in God to be His follower. The mouth should not play any part at all, it is the ACTIONS that count.

We are like cells in His body, to think of Him as somehow separate from us comes from not being able to oversee all.

I agree with Ingrid's mystical understanding of the Spirit
I was raised catholic, but religion did not originate in my mind
As far as I know the laws of nature did not originate in the mind of any mortal being
The Bible, Mark chapter 12 verses 28-31

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

"The most important one," Jesus answered, "is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbour as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."
I am not a naturalist because I beieve in things to come that no man has seen.

Though the 7 deadly sins common to man, wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony are natural
The gift of wisdom corresponds to the virtue of charity.
The gift of understanding corresponds to the virtue of faith.
The gift of counsel (right judgment) corresponds to the virtue of prudence.
The gift of courage corresponds to the virtue of fortitude.
The gift of knowledge corresponds to the virtue of faith.
The gift of piety corresponds to the virtue of justice.
The gift of fear of the Lord corresponds to the virtue of hope.
Without these gifts man can not be sacred or set apart

Now that I have shared all that is not original to me it is time for something different.

A few years back I fired up a smoker. When the temperature of the rig, that I was about to cook some pork butt in reached about four hundred degrees I noticed a wasp that was struggling to get in the smoker. The wasp briefly ..very briefly..lit on the hot metal. This strange struggle went on for several minutes. Just when I was about to give up hope of a sign of intelligent design it occured to me that the wasp's offsprings must be in the smoker or at least in the mind of the wasp. It was as if the creature was created with the desire to sacrifice itself for a greater good. I know the naturalist could argue that random events guided by the laws of nuture created the creature, but a mystic poet sees that nature is only a fragment of the supernatural. Now back to the creature in Nana's example. If I did not risk my life to save a stranger how could I proclaim greed or sloth is unnatural?

Gr8 point mIch!!

Write down for us, a positive moral action that could only be undertaken by a believer, and never by a non believer.

>>>but this is what all this is about..this is what am asking..what kind of actions would be taken by believers..and not by nonbelievers..or taken by even both..
...and a moral action? they both do have
whts the diff between..a believer doing an action..and a nonbeliever doing the same..

Got that?

Now, write down a negative moral action that could only be undertaken by believer, and not by a non believer.
^^^there aint such thing...cause this is only rewording the vice of ur previous question..which I am trying to find an answer to.

It's pretty clear which question is easier to answer.
^^^its like

what can this do and that do not

what cane that do andd this do not.. (same question actually)

and

fear and love...I have to really ask..do believers fear god or love god..?

I know what Kev meant. This is the easier "question" to answer:

Now, write down a negative moral action that could only be undertaken by believer, and not by a non believer.

"Now, write down a negative moral action that could only be undertaken by believer, and not by a non believer."
This kid goes to his dad and asks what is`the difference between adultery and fornication?

After giving it some thought he said ;gee son, I don't know, I ve done both and I can't tell the difference

If anyone think's they'd be of lesser moral character without the idea of God, you are selling yourself very short, along with the rest of us.

I'd also be very concerned about the mental stability of anyone who acted properly out of fear, or only because of Gods wrath.

That to me is not morality, it's fear and reward seeking.

Interesting little story, my questions, how do we know it was a non Christian (or are we talking about all religions here?) that entered the building? Two, was everybody that didn't want to enter the building also non Christians? As If they were Christians and they weren't prepared to enter the building, are they any less guilty than the man that retrieved his savings.

The insinuation is that Christians are more moral than non Christians

Christians = more caring

In my view there are good and bad on both sides of the spectrum, just because you don't follow the word of God doesn't mean you are morally bankrupt, and less inclined to do the right thing, if anything you are less prejudiced in your views. Moral values were around before Jesus

I have a question for you. Did the Christians not go into the building to save the child because they thought it was Gods will that the child should die?

My answer is that a non Christian would enter that building because he does not believe in God's will.

What is the difference ..between them and them
literally there is no difference between them and them, us and us, it and it. The personification of God and His creation has been accepted for many years.
Fear of the Lord can be leading or misleading. If we did not understand the shadow our earth cast upon the Lght we might fear being separate from it.

It is very sad that the authorities that claim to express the will of God have invoked so many negative responses, though not so hard to understand.

It is very sad that the authorities that claim to express the will of God have invoked so many negative responses, though not so hard to understand.

^^
Bingo.

Why should we fear the force that created us? Why should we believe mortals who claim to speak for a force that they have never met? Why do we allow ourselves to be manipulated by a man- made book? God is love, anyone that acts out of that same love for all- that- is, cannot go wrong. Love should always be the driving force behind ANY action taken, never fear. Our heart tells us what is right or wrong, always.

"God is love, anyone that acts out of that same love for all- that- is, cannot go wrong. Love should always be the driving force behind ANY action taken, never fear. Our heart tells us what is right or wrong, always."
Again we are in agreement

The illusion that we can exist without the sun is to me less harmful than that we are independent from Good
..............................................Orderly
...............................................Direction

on another topic I asked
What is the most valuable thing to you, heart, soul or mind ?

One response was this

"I think our souls are figurative entities expressing facets of our minds, as with our hearts - the way "heart" is used in a figurative sense I mean :)

So along that line of thought... my mind is most valuable. 3 = 1."

If our soul is our breath and our heart is commanded to pump life giving blood by an origan that is synonymous with our mind none can be separate

We are the parents of every God, from the thetans of scientology, right back past Jesus to the original sun Gods, or "sun of God"...Sungod.

We as people create and give attributes to these ideas, we embody them with our best and worst qualities.

So, for anyone to say we get our morality from our creations, IE from God, is ridiculous to me. The morality every God has, whether it be righteous, or, in the case of the Christian God, a sadistic mix of love and petty hatred, comes from us. We wrote it all down as an expression of ourselves.

God is our externalized morality, from a long time ago when things like social justice were in their infancy.

Hellon,

If I confuse you then maybe you didn't read all my posts in the Karl Marx thread?

I was inviting people to a philosophical discussion about what makes life worth living and how it would be like if we were to assume God does not exist. I do not have to disagree with that premiss in order to question it. I wanted people to stop and think.

This is one of my posts from that thread:

"I think the Creator does not need praise at all, just for us to live our lives to the best we know how. His "spokesmen"were never appointed by Him, nor were His words ever heard by any living creature..leaves the door wide open for manipulation."

I do believe we have a Creator, but I also believe we have been manipulated throughout the centuries by His so called "spokesmen" to have us abide by rules and stipulations created by them, to benefit themselves (power, money, etc).

"One does not have to believe in God to be His follower."

I should have phrased that differently perhaps: one can live a life following all rules we believe to be religious without believing in God, or even being aware of His existence (certain civilizations that are not in contact with the outside world, they may never have heard about Him.)So in essence: you can be a good human being, and allow all your actions to be inspired by love without being a practicing Christian.

"God is our externalized morality, from a long time ago when things like social justice were in their infancy."

"Every man dies. Not every man really lives."
William Wallace

It seems that William had more of a problem with English than he ever had with God

If everyone should remember Karl then I believe we should remember a Braveheart.

I watched the movie "Braveheart" twice but that would not make me an expert on William Wallace no more than watching the move "The Passion of the Christ" would make anyone an expert on God.

I believe Mel Gibson would fear the thought that our social justice has matured more than our faith in God

I love to visit this site and see people of all figurative language defending English quotes
"I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence." -- William F. Buckley ...

To externalize morality would make about as much sense as a poems and quotes forum that did not allow quoting poetry.

I'd like to second Kevin's last post.

I think to talk about whether or not good acts are accepted from non believers as believers we have to first understand why religion was sent or to others started. if you look at the time and place you'd find it was a time where so many an ill behavior and falsehood was present. people led the most horrid of lives. so it was sent to set their path straight, to lead them to the right direction and live. not just for their good but for the society they are in as well. in fact, I believe that most principles and morals we now function on or know of are religion-biased. being that the first messenger of god was Adam (to his children). so that's true except for those who believe we've been apes before of course.

----

so I have to say I disagree with you Nana.

The purpose of religion is to lead us to the right path and to get us in touch with our humanity. so if you already are on the right path, religious or not, then kudos to you. In religion God used three methods, other than reasoning. he used the method of encouraging and making you love what you're doing, the method of rewarding and last the method of deterring by making people fear his anger or what would be of their lives in this world and afterwards if they did certain acts. the resown for that is because we all function differently and do things for different reasons. so if you don't find the fact that if you do this and that then you'll be a good man, a man of honor and would have peace and spread good in your society and family, that god would love you..etc for example. then you may change your mind if you thought there is good in this for you and your children, good will protect you and then in the end you'd live in heaven which has such and such and such. and at last to those who are not convinced with both God told them something like.. ok do whatever you like but if you did such and such then you'll spread falsehood in your life and society and then you'd be punished for doing those certain acts in the end and in life itself. someone people for the fear of being punished would do their best not to do certain things. so yes some people function on fear of god, but not all people. and you do NOT have to do your every act for the fear of god. I'd rather you do it for the love of god or of the people around you (it's the same). and it's what was supposed to be.

I also don't think that a non believer who has done more good than a believer would be denied heaven and even a higher level than a believer. he would not even be denied the love of god. to me, we are what we do not what we believe in (unless that belief caused us to doing certain acts, then those acts are who we are. not to mention that many people believe in one thing and act according to it differently). I believe people who kill others in the name of god would suffer the fires of hell. and rightfully so, though they are, in their own way, believers.

I found your example as well very offensive. I know many who do not believe in god that would rush to save that child. as I know many who believe in god that would just stand there. just to make certain assumptions is totally stereotyping to me. and of course so untrue. you could have found a much better example. I do not agree with the second part as well about instincts in this case, because your instincts and humanity would make you run to save the child. not the savings.

as to people having more reasons to do more good when they are religious. well I have to say that my religion did indeed shape my personality in certain areas. however it's because I am convinced, my faith is not blind. I do not drink or eat pork because it's proven they cause harm to the body. yes I do other things that are unhealthy, but need I really add to it? I do not sleep around because I believe in it as well. I pray five times a day because I feel better, I feel great. it's like i'm close to god. (some of you might laugh at this) but it's like a private meeting with god five times a day (in my case that is). can anyone be more honored? I believe the real reason for praying is to remind us that god is always around and watching for us. not as some think to praise god, I don't think god is that vain. actually it does help in certain ways as well, because I myself can not just finish a prayer and then do something considered wrong or something that I should not do. I mean I was just praying moments ago. how could I be that shameless? still I know other people who are non believers who do the same, minus the praying part (and sometimes minus the pork part as well?). so it can not be measured that way. in my opinion that is.

-----

Kevin, I find your two questions hard to answers, there is no act negative or postive that can be carried by a believer and not a non believer or vice versa. in fact even terrorism (I guess that's what you've been hinting at?) can be carried by people who are racists. no religion included.

---sorry for the messy post. I wrote it down in record time and did not check it afterwards. and I have to admit I have not read more than the first few posts. will be back for a more detailed answer though after I've read it all.

U cant disagree with me :P cause this is not my opinion ..lol i didnt even state any opinion either ? am only asking questions to recieve answers and diff view of points.. its more like I want to know what ppl think..

I found your example as well very offensive.

^^^ if an example would be offensive then I wonder what would be worse in a debate !
besides this was not "my" example..i said I have HEARD ..bla bla

know many who do not believe in god that would rush to save that child. as I know many who believe in god that would just stand there. j

^^and thats why I asked wats the diff between Them and Them

I do not agree with the second part as well about instincts in this case, because your instincts and humanity would make you run to save the child. not the savings.
^^^^

EXACTLY ?!!
so this aint answering what I have asked..this is rewording what I have stated ..again not regarding my personal opinion..

YET

I don't think god is that vain. actually it does help in certain ways as well, because I myself can not just finish a prayer and then do something considered wrong or something that I should not do. I mean I was just praying moments ago. how could I be that shameless? still I know other people who are non believers who do the same, minus the praying part (and sometimes minus the pork part as well?). so it can not be measured that way. in my opinion that is.
^^^^

I cant agree more !!

as to people having more reasons to do more good when they are religious. well I have to say that my religion did indeed shape my personality in certain areas. however it's because I am convinced, my faith is not blind.
^^^that has replied me..very well..for what ii said here

In other words..lets forget about the belief of salvation etc..for a believer their is always a stronger reason to do the right thing, but I dont knw if that's how things go for a nonbeliever ..

>>ur last part..was the answer I was hoping to recieve..or a reply that's pretty convincing..

well do u think a nonbeliever would do the same things a believer would ? and for same reasons..

You did not state your opinion?

well let me quote what I disagree with then... (third paragraph. to me that's an opinion. not sure about yourself.

''what is the difference between a believer who walks straightly for the love of GOd, and a person who doesn't believe in God yet do the right things, the right way..

Would it be his instinct ? or his morals..
Actually my question is, is it the same ?

Cause I think it's not..unbelievers who do the things for the sake of others would do it only cause their conscious calls them for it , or is it just more like their citizenship ..''

----

As to the example, would it make you feel better if I stated ''the example you mentioned was offensive''? let me say this Nana, I don't think that you met the person or it was stated that the person who ran for his savings was a believer or not. it was your own assumption that if he were a believer he would have acted differently. still what i meant by ''your example'' is the one you've written.

---

''so this aint answering what I have asked..this is rewording what I have stated ..again not regarding my personal opinion..''

I did answer what you stated. I did actually refer to every part in your post, didn't I? the fact I mentioned I disagree with you is to let you see my side. but yes, I found your post or the way you voiced your ideas a bit bias. though I do believe in god and am actually a Muslim.

if this is not your personal opinion though, then I really have no idea what it is..

''As for a believer i think the fear and love for God..would have been stronger than his instincts and would have drove him to save the kid..rather than his savings.

In other words..lets forget about the belief of salvation etc..for a believer their is always a stronger reason to do the right thing, but I dont knw if that's how things go for a nonbeliever ..''

---

let me say however the fact that I disagree with you means no disrespect or attack. it just means what it states, I have a different opinion on this.

---

P.S I keep editing my post because you keep adding to yours.

''as to people having more reasons to do more good when they are religious. well I have to say that my religion did indeed shape my personality in certain areas. however it's because I am convinced, my faith is not blind.
^^^that has replied me..very well..for what ii said here''

now if you read the rest of the paragraph you'd find I mentioned this: ''still I know other people who are non believers who do the same, minus the praying part (and sometimes minus the pork part as well?). so it can not be measured that way. in my opinion that is. ''

never take my words out of context. I was stating my own experience. not that the same could not be taught by parents in a family that does not believe in god to start with.

''well do u think a nonbeliever would do the same things a believer would ? and for same reasons..''

I did already state that before. but YES! and for even better reasons at times.

"never take my words out of context."

Hahaha, is that a threat?
Cool your jets, guys. Sheesh.
Things get taken out of context. It happens. It always has, it always will. We're all guilty of it.

"so that's true except for those who believe we've been apes before of course."

It's funny to me how many people don't understand the theory of evolution. We were never apes.

Exactly that was not my opinion ..i was still raising questions..regarding that..i was not giving answers either

As to the example, would it make you feel better if I stated ''the example you mentioned was offensive''? let me say this Nana, I don't think that you met the person or it was stated that the person who ran for his savings was a believer or not. it was your own assumption that if he were a believer he would have acted differently. still what i meant by ''your example'' is the one you've written.

^^not at all. .if he was a believer..would he act differently?..I cant assume he would..or else i would have not even mentioned it in the 1st place..cause it would be as simple as that..a believer would and a non believer would not..

and i was not tracking u back , I actually was aiming to clear up that I dnt have an opinion over here even if it sounded like it..im only asking questions to recieve answers.

and i knw disagreeing with me doesnt mean any disrespect..cause I think I am a bit more mature than that..As I said I was clearing for you that It is not MY opinion even if it sounded like it , due to my wording.

Despite that I do have the beliefs, that You do,
The fact that am asking about things doesnt change my own beliefs which I havent stated officially either.

and If it sounded like I have, then now Im announcing it again, wat ever I have mentioned in my 1st post is nothing but questions on my mind, and things that I have heard, and a topic that i wanted those ppl around to give me some of their personal thoughts about.

Well, Jane, it's a pet peeve of mine, I'm afraid. and no, i'm neither ok with it nor do I accept it.

I'm not angry though and I don't need to cool down. I'm rather tired in the moment and very calm.

''It's funny to me how many people don't understand the theory of evolution. We were never apes.''

I'm well aware of Darwin's theory actually. and I know it's been misunderstood and mistaken that we have descended from apes. I was making a joke. a horrid one it seems. again my lack of ''lols'' get in the way.

---

Nana, it's ok.

Ah, yep. Such is the way of the Internet. Misunderstanding of intent.

"Well, Jane, it's a pet peeve of mine, I'm afraid. and no, i'm not ok with it and I don't accept it."

It's probably a pet peeve of everyone, but I feel if you don't accept certain annoyances as inevitable, you'll be forever annoyed. Anyway, ignore me - back on topic! ;) Sorry Nana.

Well I always let people know what I do not like rather than accept the inevitable, tell you what, it works!

Hahahaa lol JAne..do all u like :P i still find everything related

*
and sure.

Many heathens are cool, and I do not believe it is against my beliefs to hope they stay that way.

Does anyone have issues with Faith, Hope and Charity?

* Edit .I did not mean to use a double negative.

''Many heathens are cool, and I do not believe it is against my beliefs to hope they stay that way''

exactly Michael. I have to say though just because one does not consider himself better because he believes in god. or does not think lesser of those who do not believe in god (or in the same god they themselves believe in) and just because one does not think that non believers are not capable of any good for the right reasons be it or not. just because some do not think all the above does not mean we hope for them to stay that way. it's more of respecting their choice, like I want them to respect mine as well. religion is one of those things that either you're convinced or not. and unless you're ready no one can really convince you of it anyway.

I would not wish or hope for anyone to be/stay heathens (against my beliefs was it or not). although as I said I do respect their choice and views on the subject.

*edited part taken into consideration.

Thankyou

Ok lets stop all this rubbish about unbelievers heathens etc and lets just call us Atheists, Heathen can be conspired to be a derogatory term meaning uncivilized.....unless that was the purpose..?

'The purpose of religion is to lead us to the right path and to get us in touch with our humanity"

Fine words but unfortunately for humanity religion has failed us miserably, as history has shown. There have been more wars more deaths more inhumanity to man due to religion than any other cause combined, so has God led us on the path of righteousness and humanity, history tells us no no no!

So the question should be "Will the religious man (in the context that we have been discussing) do the right thing" The answer thoughout history has been, no he has not.

Atheists dont carry the same restraints, the bigotry, the anti Semitism, the ethnic hatred, the religious rivalry and suspicions.

I feel an atheist will normally judge a man as a man and do the right thing, in many cases the religious man is obliged on religious grounds not to....

Sorry about that heathen thing, though it is difficult for me to see where religion can aid a social group to anything that a civilization connot. You can call a war civil and yet observe one colony of ants attack another.

-ism a suffix appearing in loanwords from Greek, where it was used to form action nouns from verbs ( baptism ); on this model, used as a productive suffix in the formation of nouns denoting action or practice, state or condition, principles, doctrines, a usage or characteristic, devotion or adherence, etc. ( criticism; barbarism; Darwinism; despotism; plagiarism; realism; witticism; intellectualism Catolicism

Religion has attempted to grasp immortality and ism's . Is atheism not an ism?

In Christian philosophy, theological virtues are the character qualities associated with salvation. The three theological virtues are:

Faith - steadfastness in belief
Hope - expectation of and desire of receiving; refraining from despair and capability of not giving up
Charity - selfless, unconditional, and voluntary loving-kindness such as helping one's neighbors.

Guns N' Roses - Civil War (Music Video)

Ok lets stop all this rubbish about unbelievers heathens etc and lets just call us Atheists, Heathen can be conspired to be a derogatory term meaning uncivilized.....unless that was the purpose..?

^^
I once heard a story about a boy asking his mum how she knew Saturn was really Saturn. It is all just words Nick, and sadly so, many hide behind them and are righteous only with their mouths. You find them in the front row on Sunday mornings in certain places often. (please do not take this personally anyone). We all have a personal responsibility to take care of both ourselves and the ones who depend on us and to live our lives to the best we can. It is fine if religion gives people the courage and the drive to do well, it does not really matter where we get our strength from, as long as it enables us to do good things with the time we have on this earth. To wear a badge with a made up name ( all"titles" are man- made) does not make you a better man per se, you still have to show what you are made of..that goes for all people. Respect has to be earned, it is no one's right to claim without any effort given.

That's why I prefer the company of holier than thou atheist over those who curse holinesss

( all"titles" are man- made)

It seems that is the one thing that creationist and evolutionist agree on ie that man gave names to the animals

It seems that the ratio of male and female looks like this from one angle

Each Man has two parents, four grand parents eight greats sixteen great greats thirty two great great greats and that is only five generations

Try diong the math on the titles used for hundreds of generations and you might understand the brotherhood sisterhood motherhood and fatherhood of mankind a bit better.

1st=1
2nd=2
3rd=4
4th=8
5th=16
6th=32
7th=64
8th=128
9th=256
10th=512
11th=1024
12th=2048
13th=4096
14th=8192
15th=16384
16th=32768
17th=65536
18th=131072
19th=262144
20th=524288
How great would Adam and Eve be?
or who did we inherit our goodness from?
not to mention any lack thereof.

I think firemen have responsibilities and it would be harder to respect those who only risk their lives for money

We often define people by the title they have ( adapted), but all that really matters, Michael, is what we DO with our lives and how we TREAT both ourselves and others. We gave names to all that surrounds us and to ourselves too. It is in our nature to label, because we want to control our surroundings, but we must never forget that things are not defined by a chosen name. All creatures are unique and will never be completely defined by a label.

To call myself a Christian, does not make me a better person, it is my actions that do.

That math did my head in, Michael. I've been confused with life enough lately, then you add to that I have thousands of distant relatives wandering around... split off from only several generations back. Talk about family. Sheesh.

"To call myself a Christian, does not make me a better person, it is my actions that do."
No it does not make me better, but if I were accused of being a Christian I would hope my accusers would find enough evidence to convict me

The thing that confuses me about athropology is that there would seem to be a gray area on who the first man was lol
Acts of Random Kindness could be what sets man apart from other primates

''Ok lets stop all this rubbish about unbelievers heathens etc and lets just call us Atheists, Heathen can be conspired to be a derogatory term meaning uncivilized.....unless that was the purpose..?''

always defensive, aren't we? well, despite what you want to believe (I have no control over that), it was not said on purpose. where I come from it's more respectful in this order: non believers/unbelievers, heathens then at last atheists. atheist is the less respectful, almost close to infidel. if you pick atheist though, then what can I say.

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''There have been more wars more deaths more inhumanity to man due to religion than any other cause combined, so has God led us on the path of righteousness and humanity, history tells us no no no!''

what I meant by lead, is more of show us the right path, not take us from our hands. you have his book (you can roll your eyes at that) which tells you what's right and what's wrong, then you're on your own. the choice is completely yours. so yes, he did tell us all he can, now it's up to us.

about most wars being religious. are you sure? because I don't think so. I think most wars have been for economical and political reasons mostly. and yes, racism and some people thinking their way and their lives and their everything is better to the point the want to apply it to the whole world is also a reason.

at times even most countries were following the philosophy of having the world as one huge country. but thing is that all countries had to be under the power of just ONE country. not pretty. that's when empires appeared. empires like the greek, the romans, the british, the arabs (Islamic?) and the french.

you could claim that wars like The Crusade or Muslim conquests were religious and I can't really disagree with you. although i believe it was about that period of time and how people lived then. the reason behind the names of such was that those who carried such were either christians or muslims. yes they had some religious men to try to let people convert into their religion. but it was not forced. they did not impose religion.(as far as I know). Muslims wanted to conquor the world at that time and the Christians wanted the holy land. (well and some other lands as well?). to me it was purely human greed and a love of power and yes, again, that period of time because the real reason was not at all religious. neither religion supports or encourages such. it was just the way of life then, to conquer. men were raised to be swordsmen not scientists, mind you. it was their life. all they knew. actually religion set rules for such in a time nothing like that was known. the rules varried between not killing a woman or a child or an old man, not killing an animal unless for food, not cutting a tree or posioning water, not to continue fighting once the other party surrenders, to free slaves not to slave people...etc.

but then again, if you consider them religious, then I really have no real argument here. just my evaluation of the situation.

but now look at these.. the american war of independence (and many other wars of independence in many countries), the Vietnam war, the war on Iraq, the war between Palestine and Israel, the first world war, the second world war, the war between England and the jewel of their crown (India), the boer war, wars carried by the Mongol which had the second largest empire in the world after the British, their empire was like from china to eastern Europe and they were known to brutally kill people in massive numbers and burn whole cities down. wars carried by the british and france. also, wars carried by Greece (Alexander the great) and rome. and many more. all of those are not religious as far as I know. and yes, SOME of them belonged to just that period where most men were brought up to be just swordsmen and knights. it was the most honorable then.

that had been said. I don't think the reason people kill is because of their belief, Nicko, more of an unstable personality or a really messed up brain. whatever the blame it on, it's themselves with the problem.

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'' Atheists dont carry the same restraints, the bigotry, the anti Semitism, the ethnic hatred, the religious rivalry and suspicions.

I feel an atheist will normally judge a man as a man and do the right thing, in many cases the religious man is obliged on religious grounds not to....''

This. this that you've just written is the heart of the problem. just like the part Nana wrote was. people just thinking all the good is in what they know/belief. what's not different from them. true, both of you just think it and in the worst case you say it. but some people believe it, and if it happens that such people have the power and the means to force it, like start a war, they would. and there you have it. it's not really religion, it's people thinking their way is best because of such and such and such, and that those ''others'' won't be able to do the same, and if they did it, then it's not for the right reason, so it's not really the same. mostly such is the problem, not just when it comes to religious beliefs but to every other aspect in life.

needless to say, just like I said to Nana, I don't agree with you. I don't think my religion would ever come between me and judging fairly or doing the right thing, like I don't think your lack of it would really come between you and whatever it is that some think religious people could do that atheists can't.

as to rescuing the child that has been in the burning building the whole thread, I don't think it takes a religious or an atheist to save him. just a person who has the ''human'' in him functioning.

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Hellon, I thought the question was is it the same doing good were it by believer or a non believer. and on what do atheist function if not religion. be it instincts or morals and is it the same as in someone doing the same act but for love/fear of god. at least that's what I understood from the first post. and hence answered accordingly.

as for hating religion, shouldn't what you just mentioned make you dislike the people more than the religion itself. I mean no religion encourages such abuse. am I wrong?

One of my favorite authors of writers or poets was visited by a folk singer who adapted a poem he wrote to a song
Joan Baez Lyrics
"Joan Baez The Bells Of Gethsemani lyrics"

Sweet brother, if I do not sleep
My eyes are flowers on your tomb
And if I cannot eat my bread
My fasts shall live like willows where you died
If in the heat I find no water for my thirst
My thirst shall turn to springs for you, poor traveler

Come, in your labor find a resting place
And in my sorrows lay your head
Brother, take my life and bread
And buy yourself a better bed
Take my breath and take my death
Buy yourself a better rest beneath the bells of Gethsemani

When all the men of war are killed
And flags have fallen into dust
Your cross and mine will tell men still
He died on each for both of us

That we might become the brothers of God
And learn to know the Christ of burnt men
And the children are ringing the bells of Gethsemani
For in the wreckage of your April Christ lies slain

He weeps in the ruins of my spring
The money of whose tears shall fall
Into your weak and friendless hand
And buy you back to your own land

The silence of whose tears shall fall
Like bells upon your alien tomb
Hear them and come, they call you home
And the children are ringing the bells of Gethsemani

Yes, if they had been there
They would have taken that crown of thorns from his hair
And stayed for a while in that place of despair
Ah, but what do I see, my brother is there
And he's ringing the bells of Gethsemani"

Thomas merton had this to say

quotes from Thomas Merton: 'The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not twist them to fit our own image"

We have to recognize that a spirit of individualism and confusion has reduced us to an ethic of every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost. This ethic, unfortunately sometimes consecrated by Christian formulas, is nothing but the secular ethic of the affluent society, based on the false assumption that if everyone is bent on making money for himself the common good will automatically follow, due to the operation of economic laws.

Thomas Merton Quote about Compassion

"The whole idea of compassion is based on a keen awareness of the interdependence of all these living beings, which are all part of one another, and all involved in one another."

Many poets are not poets for the same reason that many religious men are not saints: they never succeed in being themselves. They never get around to being the particular poet or the particular monk they are intended to be by God. They never become the man or the artist who is called for by all the circumstances of their individual lives. They waste their years in vain efforts to be some other poet, some other saint...They wear out their minds and bodies in a hopeless endeavor to have somebody else's experiences or write somebody else's poems." Thomas Merton