What is the difference ..between them and them

Yes, I rather enjoyed the first part, Hellon, thank you. and I wholeheartedly agree. I was just referring to you saying that the thread has taken another course but the one intended by the original poster, so i thought i'd explain why i answered the way I did, because the way i understood the question was a bit different than yours. but then all discussion is fine with me.

as to your question, I don't think she betrayed her belief actually. a belief is something between you and god or you and yourself. it should not affect how you treat people. people should be respectful to one another first place, no matter what is their beliefs.

-----

Michael, I loved your post. very inspiring and true.

"where I come from it's more respectful in this order: non believers/unbelievers, heathens then at last atheists. atheist is the less respectful, almost close to infidel. if you pick atheist though, then what can I say."

I had to laugh at that. Satisdiction.

As for why wars are started, I agree they're mostly for political purposes, even hundreds and hundreds of years ago. Conquistadors. The acquirement of more land and power. But religion is a big one too. Definitely up there on the list of war starters. Religion of all kinds often grants followers a high and mighty sense of self worth, or rewards for terrorism. All sorts of bad stuff... Good stuff too.

If I understand your lengthy posts correctly, Princess, you seem to be saying that atheists have leeched their morality from religious people?

Do you believe in human evolution? There was a time when we were humans without religion, with only primal instincts and no concept of God. It was found that to survive effectively, we needed to get along with our pack and be accepted. With more intelligence, we developed empathy.

Morality was born.

The golden rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" has been practiced long before the times of any Jesus, any prophet, any religious figure, any human who chose to dictate it as God's word.

Now, is the impact of religion on our contrived morality a positive one? For the most part, it works. A believer's actions is mostly governed by hopes of divine reward and punishment- there is a sense of Absolute here which is both inspiring and terrifying. Of course, this can lead to extremes, but atheists are capable of this too.

The main flaw with any doctrinal morality is that it can manipulate huge masses of people so easily. And people do generally notice the negative influences much more than the positive. However, religious morality has so much potential that goes neglected. Moses' Ten Commandments, for instance, are held in much high regard. But what of the Beatitudes, by Jesus himself on the Mount? They are so beautiful. Blessed are the meek, the merciful, the peacemakers. Ha! Get real, Jesus. That is too hard to remember in a house of justice or politics or law. Yet, it is really what our ideals, our constitutions, our inner sense of Good are based upon.

Theist, spiritual or atheist- as humans, we end up choosing what fits.

Ooops. grammatical mistake, a very embarrassing one at that. I meant the ''least'' respectful not the less.

Jane, do pardon my English, but ''Satisdiction'' means?

Glad we agree on something. however there are no such promises as the 40, 50, 60, 70 virgins at all, if that's what you mean by the rewards of terrorism. actually terrorism=hell fire. but then I explained that to donald before, let me find the post and copy it to you, since you haven't been on the boards that much except recently. I guess it would settle down that terrorist thing. at least, I hope.

-----

Hellon, infidel here is not a taboo word or of the like. no idea about where you are. but here it's just the same as atheist, what i was trying to say is such words when translated into Arabic you find that non believers or heathens are considered more respectful than atheist. no one says here that someone is an athestist or infidel but then say he doesn't believe in god. an unbeliever. so it seems the opposite from what Nicko thinks. I guess no matter how many languages you speak you'll always be influenced by your mother language.

if anyone knows someone who speaks arabic. you can ask them.

unbeliever= ger momen
heathen= moshreek
atheist= molheed
infidel= kafer

there.

----

abracadabra, yes, that's what I was saying. to me (and that's my own opinion) our life on earth started when adam and eve descended from heaven (or were kicked out as some like to say). Adam taught his children what he learned and hence yes, what we know now started then and there.

I do agree with the rest of your post though. mostly. and even the parts that I have a different opinion on I do understand.

Jane, there you go...

''so as I said according to Quran, which is the main source of Islam, they are not promised to martyrs, not one let alone 70+ which is rather unreasonable and irrational. (not to mention that martyrs are those who die and not those who kill. killing innocents, even suicide = HELL.)

what happened is after the prophet died PBUH and they started gathering people for a lot of years and writing everything down so it won't ve lost, the problem was that a lot of hadiths (prophetic statements) were told to be said by the prophet. and they were rather controversial and people agreed, and other refused and others added more fuel to the fire. in the end it was considered that any hadith that has noy any basis in Qur'an one would do best to consider thinking about it first or leaving it aside as a whole. especially if it's NOT found in the prophetic statements in Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim.

it's rather strange that everything held on our necks concerning religion especially from the west is rather one of those things that can not be found in any reliable or trusted source of Islam. and it's rather more so that it seems that most of the west knows nothing at all about anything concerning paradise, our lives and our teaching except those things. which again are NOT true. not one single bit.

IF you read what is mentioned in Qur'an:

"Gardens of perpetual bliss, they shall enter them as well as the righteous among their fathers, their spouses and their offspring. And angels shall enter upon them from every gate.'' (Surat al Raad 13:23)

''They and their wives will be in pleasant shade, reclining on thrones.'' (Surat Ya Sin 36:56)

''Enter Paradise, you and your wives, in happiness.''
( Surat Az-Zukhruf 43:70)

"But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before", for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (forever)". (Al-Qur'an 2:25)

''Whosoever works righteousness, whether male or female, while he (or she) is a true believer, We will give a good life.'' (An-Nahl 16: 97)

''For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah.s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.'' (Qur'an 33:35)

and if you notice, in the last verse, it's not only ''muslims'', as some seem to think we think everyone else are infidels which is very untrue, in the end it's not what religion you follow that would be considered but rather how people act that would grant them god's forgiveness and rewards or not. actually those who follow a certain religion would be more of the people with no way out of the ill deeds they've done, because they have the knowledge, means and know the right path and still they chose otherwise. no escape. but god is merciful.''

----

''Osama's videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of3uFj2U03w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiKyWJRRjnU

he does not sound that religious to me, actually. at all. he sounds like someone hellbent on revenge. he did not even mention a single verse.''

''Donald, First of all I'm not defending anyone , I was 10 years old, almost 11, when 9/11 happened, and to be honest I've been disgusted enough from what I've heard to never even think of seeing the videos of Osama myself, but yesterday I thought enough is enough and I'd see for myself, I could not find the first one though, but I'm after it. have to say I was shocked, because to be honest he's not talking religion or stating a hundred verses or implying that anyone is an infidel or wanting anyone to convert to Islam or fighting freedom, as he said in the video if he was indeed fighting freedom he would've attacked Sweden not the USA. that's why I shared the videos.''

oh and here is the link for the whole discussion.

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=126363

A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8. Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

I have often wondered if the anthropologist just ignored the altars to alter imaginations or if they just used their imaginations to pretend religion has just been as destructive as nature. I have read and listened to the archelogical evidence to prove or dispute the inspired word of God and it is less consistant than the scriptures. I am confused because I have never been to the Egypt that the Jews were supposed to have adapted the ten commandments from the book of the dead.
There is no evidence that the Pharoahs had slaves that were Hebrew, or any other race, and they were probably just piddle farting around when they built some of the seven wonders of the world.

Whether it is the pyramids or the Tower or Babel man has always babbled

It would not be original for me to compare words to sticks and stones,build with stones or, throw stones like words

As we say in rehab "I love you all, and you can't change that"

Religion and logic have always had power, but how much more power is in the conscience of an aware concious

"A poem is learned by heart and then not again repeated. We will suppose that after a half year it has been forgotten: no effort of recollection is able to call it back again into consciousness."
Hermann Ebbinghaus

Religion is a political tool, so i stand by my previous post

Re Heathen - its true meaning is fine, in fact I like it, but over time its picked up another meaning ie read the English dictionary. So its not about what i think.

Princess a question for you although its been asked many times before but not of you i think

You believe in Adam and Eve ok, and not i take it in any form of evolution. Am I correct? As I don't want to put words in your mouth.

That being the case. How do you account for the different races in the world, Negros, Caucasian, Asian, Pigmys etc etc how do you account for different blood types, different eye colour were it not for gene mutation and subsequent evolution..? In your world, would we not all be descendants of Adam and Eve and all be of the same race?

Changing pigmentation is mutating = evolution

i know its a hard one for the church to answer because there is only one answer...

Why should it be so that members of the same species that have adapted to the environment as they spread across the globe have proven to not originate from one source just because they are able to adapt? How do those two facts conflict with each other? To me it just shows we are intelligent creatures, with a clever system to transport us in as we roam around here.

Because adapt and evolve have two different meanings.

And Michael Jackson, God rest his Soul, never adapted to his high living life, he was only evolving into the Creature he was to become through Pigmentation and Desecration and Isolation of his fleshly Being, an Idol. Which has been hard for any Man, to be a God.

There is no difference only Choice of Believer or Unbeliever, We either are or We are not, still all are Vanity, all are one.

"Vanity of Vanities" saith the Preacher, all is Vanity." Ecclesiastes 12:8

We either are or We are not, still all are Vanity, all are one.

^^^
Bingo:)

We were humans from day one, there are limits to changes within the species, borders that cannot be crossed. Man will never change into something that is not human, nor did we originate from apes.

Actually there is a massive difference though to admit to it you'd have To renounce your faith. And we are still evolving, ever wonder what your appendix was all about? It was used in the days when we were herbivores thousands of years ago, no need for it now,and no we didn't evolve from the apes we now see, but maybe something similar

And what has vanity to do with it... Sorry you lost me
There...

....what has this got to do with a believer/non believer/morals by the way..no idea...just giving my thoughts on the last post haha!!!

^^^
We were all having a discussion about it, Hellon. You should read a thread more closely, before you say things.

I did not bring vanity into the discussion, Nick, Edward did.

To think there ever was a time or will ever be a time when things stop evolving/ changing is unrealistic. The things we see around us, and we ourselves too, are vibrating bundles of energy and all the cells within our body are replaced in the course of seven years. In that time changes are made, depending on what we have eaten and what we have encountered, the stress levels we have had to endure, the medicines we have taken, the things that have changed around us, etc. etc. So we change, all around us changes, but that chance never makes a human change so much it becomes a different species, that is impossible. It will always be recognizable as a human as it has been from day one. Every now and then they find a skeleton that makes scientist realize their assumptions about the first people on earth have been wrong. Never forget there is no such thing as "the truth"in science, every theory holds until the next generation of scientist proves the old one invalid.

Nicko, thanks for not putting words in my mouth and asking instead. I appreciate it.

when I mentioned Adam I was replying to Abby's post about how did our moral/principles..etc. exist. she believes it was instinct, respectfully so. and I believe it was some sort of religious teachings, being that Adam was the first messenger/prophet (in my own mind). it was not that I don't believe in evolution or mutation.

let me share something.. a hadith (prophetic statement).

Abu Moosa al-Ash'ari said: ''I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: Allah created Adam from a handful that He gathered from the entire earth, so the sons of Adam come like the earth. Some of them are red, some are white, some are black and some are in between. Some of them are easy, some of them are difficult, some are evil and some are good.''

I know some might laugh at this. I've had worse reactions though, so no worries. laugh away.

point is neither Adam nor eve were like us. and I'm no science student so just correct me if i am wrong. but maybe, no let me try this again.. MAYBE they many recessive and dominant genes and those genes resulted in different races? maybe they were faster to evolve than us now after existing for that much time, now such rates became slower? especially that they had to go after whatever place that had food, water and safety then. in either case, there is no doubt an evolutionary process occurred.

as to skin and eye colors. well as far as I remember from my science classes is that they have something to do with the ammounts of Melanin? and that that depends on environmental factors as well as genetic ones? if that's true then that should explain it.

I find this an interesting article.

http://www.livescience.com/health/080131-blue-eyes.html

as to blood types. there are two possibilities. I, myself, prefer the first one. first one is as following, a person is either AA, BB, AB, AO, BO, or OO. since O is recessive type and not a dominant one then we just say A or B. so be it that Adam and eve were either AO and BO, AB and AO, AA and BO, AB and BO, AB and OO, or BB and AO then their children, grandchildren..etc would have the four types. the other opinion is that the O one has been developed or arose later by mutation, so Adam and eve needed to be an A and B or AB and B.. etc..

it can't be denied however that it was god's will all a long for us to be different. in everything. something that not a lot like to accept. were we are the same in thoughts, in morals and principles, in looks, in interest and in way of living this life would not have continued. we complete one another as is.

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, And made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other(Not that ye despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things)." Quran 49:13

it was not said the most ''religious'' of you. but righteous. I guess that answers Nana.

Re Heathen - it's really about what you think because you assumed the worse and just picked it. it was obvious context-wise and taking in consideration the fact that Michael was the person who first said the word (not evil me) that it was not meant the way you ''thought'' it did. let me put it like this though, if I wanted to call someone something I would not resort to hidden meanings, I'd say it openly along with the reasons of why I thought so. and I expect the same. so rest assured you would have known if I meant it that meaning of the word. a meaning that I myself didn't know existed until I checked a dictionary after you mentioned it. with that being said, you can believe I'm lying or whatever you want to believe.

---------

Donald, oh Donald. long time no argument! well let me say, I did not quote you at all. I just quoted myself. and I was answering Jane about terrorism and did not feel like writing it all again, after all I've had that discussion on three threads or more just with you and this account. with my Norhan account I discussed it even more than that.

now as to ''kill them infidels''. let me repeat that part again (just for those who are reading).

'' Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine.''

actually if it were translated word by word from the arabic verse it would be like that... tell them unbelievers I worship not what you worship, nor do you worship that which I worship. neither will I worship what you worship nor will you worship that which I worship. you have your religion (path) and I have mine.

so that's where it ends. it wasn't said for us to kill them infidels at all. more like to accept the differences and move on. move on with our lives, with our thoughts to whatever path we choose. otherwise it's just a waste of time and effort. there are times when one should stop because it become useless. like me and you, Donald. there were times your replies made me see red, there were times I did argue with you and try to change your mind and correct your info. I proved with verses and examples everything you claimed wrong. I've corrected verses you got from only god knows where and posted the true ones with links to them, I completed some verses that you seem to have choose certain parts of that lead to people thinking the worse and I even explained the circumstances around others. and none of this seemed to change your mind. so you know what, you want to think that, then do. please do. write it on walls even. and I hope it makes you feel better.

People tend to find me easy to argue with because I'm fairly opinionated -- I really don't believe in any supreme being or God and I can accept and respect people that do. Beliefs are the main drive of some people, faith can be love to somebody and to me, that's fantastic. I just don't like it when people try to sell their ideologies to me or try to preach that Christians or 'believers' are morally more significant than others. humans are complex creatures, and I do believe that humankind evolved into the way we are now and we shape each other's growth. I don't think that it's coincidence that we're the correct distance from the sun and able to function on one planet and the rest of the planets in our known solar system show no signs of life. That's a really cliched argument, though.

We can't naturally blame or thank religion because technically speaking, it's an ideology...we can only ever blame humans for tarnishing or using that particular ideology for good or for bad. That goes for Science too.

I don't know why I'm posting really, I admire all of you here though, especially Nor.

"Nicko I once asked my grandma that, and apparently it was taught in my church growing up that there are different races because of the sun..the eastern world/desert areas, their peoples pigment changed due to the sun. Never made much sense to me, but that is a theory a lot are told."

I skipped ahead after reading the initial posts on pigmentation, because I can offer some insight.
First of all, I would like to clarify the difference between a hypothesis and a theory. A hypothesis is a provisional explanation of phenomenon that requires verification/falsification through testing. A theory is statement of scientific relationships or underlying principles that has been [substantially verified through rigorous testing of hypotheses].
Evolution is a theory.
So you are correct in stating that the relationship between the sun and skin color is a theory, though I think you were using the word theory to describe your idea of a hypothesis. I could be wrong :)
No matter.
The strongest theory regarding the evolution of different skin colors is based on solar radiation, scientifically... and it would appear religiously, as well. Which is cool!
Natural selection has favored dark skin in areas nearest the equator, where the sun's rays are most direct and where UV rays are thus most intense. This is because dark skin acts as a shield to damaging and intense sunlight more so than light skin.
To quote my Anthro book:
"1. Early hominins lived in the tropics, where solar radiation is more intense than in temperate areas in the north and south.
2. Unlike modern city dwellers, early hominins spent their days outdoors.
3. Early hominins didn't wear clothing that would have protected them from the sun.
Given these conditions, UV radiation was probably a powerful agent in selecting for high levels of melanin production in early humans."
We share common dark-skinned ancestors :)

Another theory regarding skin color involves UV radiation and its role in the degradation of a B vitamin called folate. I'm going to clarify light skin pigmentation instead of talking about folate.

As hominins migrated into Asia and Europe, new selective pressures arose - cold temperatures, cloudy skies, etc. during summer and winter. Less sunlight and more layers meant the advantages of dark skin no longer applied... but that's not enough of a reason for light skin to have emerged, which is why a 'hypothesis' concerning the role of Vitamin D has been and is being tested. It's a theory now.
An insufficient amount of Vitamin D in childhood results in rickets. Reduced levels of UV radiation and more clothing would mean darker skinned individuals (who, because of their dark skin are more resistant to the absorption of UV) would be less "fit" because they would be more susceptible to rickets! - a huge factor way back when.
Vitamin D is critical to plenty of other biological processes.

Anyway, these things still require millions of years to happen. Immense geological time. Natural selection is a slow, slow process, and it can be described by the theory of punctuated equilibrium... the concept that evolutionary change proceeds through long periods of stasis punctuated by rapid periods of change.

Yeah. Hope you all learned something today. I tried to keep it short.

---

And yes, Princess, I was not on the boards for a long time. And before that, I was on the boards for a very long time. And before that, I was not on the boards for a long time. And before that, I was on... I've been on PnQ for 5 or so years, sometimes I sit back and read the boards without contributing for months at a time. So I hope you weren't trying to make some kind of point :)
Either way, I appreciate you copy pasting your post from another thread. I found it very interesting!

I have something about genetics, found it very enlightening, just thought I'd share it with you all:

http://www.documentarywire.com/the-ghost-in-our-genes/

Very interesting. I have thought that even the most random evolutionist could not deny the relaionship of environment to the latitude of our attitude. It could be taken a step further to prove our genes have been altered by the altar.

Interesting indeed Ingrid. I loved all 48 minutes of it :) actually I was thinking.. why oh why didn't I study science? XD instead of law that is, you never see us getting together like this or that excited about.. well anything. which is most probably our fault. I think most of us bang our heads on wall with every new amended article! but then that's off subject.. thank you for sharing! it was delightful to watch and very thought provoking. well, to me anyway. :)

---

Danny, thank you!

''We can't naturally blame or thank religion because technically speaking, it's an ideology...we can only ever blame humans for tarnishing or using that particular ideology for good or for bad. That goes for Science too.''

Exactly! couldn't have worded it better myself.

you should actually teach me how to put my thoughts in brief! XD

You are welcome:)

I feel we should try to broaden our horizon always, even when it comes to subjects foreign to us. It makes life so very interesting!!!

Firstly - the term 'believer' is exceedingly vague, a believer in what, and by what means? As this will differ the answers to your questions greatly.

I myself am a Christian, and sadly reluctant to say because of the messed up labels this word has acquired over the years. Being this sort of 'believer' I can tell you this of my belief -

Being a believer dose NOT make you a better person.
Being a believer dose NOT give you a better instinct or moral values.
Being a believer dose NOT make you walk into a burning building to save a child.
Being a believer dose NOT mean you do everything or live out of fear.

I don't think that being a believer gives you a stronger reason to do the 'right' thing either, but it may give you a different one.

To put it simply - being a believer is all about knowing God. It can have a tendency to flip over ones perspective to see things quite differently. If there are changes that ensue from that, it is by the individual.

I think C.S. Lewis said it best: 'I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen. Not only because I can see it, but because by it I see everything else.'

I would certainly hope it gives people the back bone and the strength to do what they know in their hearts to be good. It is the deeds that count at the end of the day. All decisions should be based on love, not on fear.

There would be no need to fear the Light if there were never a shadow cast on it. Darkess is nothing and we have nothing to fear but the fear itself. We seem to have a defect in our hearts at times that time can only heal. Healing comes to us like a gift, though we may hide from the way the truth and life that is only made possible by the Light of Love.

google
Brother Alban Tribute
The seed does not fear being buried
brotheralban.blogspot.com/

Believers in God Oderly Direction seem to not have randomly evolved figurative hearts. but hearts that are divinely created

Not to offend, but how many can see how this Glenn Beck quote may offend people who are not american
"We have forgotten: We're not Europeans, we're Americans! We run in to burning buildings, not away from them"

One man cannot speak from the heart, mind, and soul of everyone or any group, for that matter, if they do not look at a larger vision

What is the difference ..between them and them?
I find comfort in thinking more in terms of us being children of a Divine Creator

Bin Laden family allowed 9/11 leave

United Press International

NEW YORK, Sept. 2 (UPI) -- The bin Laden family were granted extraordinary White House privileges to fly out of U.S. airspace following the attacks of Sept. 11th, 2001.

Former White House counter terrorism expert Richard Clarke told Vanity Fair the Bush administration decided to allow a group of Saudis to fly out of U.S. airspace just after Sept. 11-- a time when access to the United States was still restricted and required special government approval.The bin Laden family (Arabic: بن لادن‎), also spelled bin Ladin, is a wealthy family intimately connected with the innermost circles of the Saudi royal family. The family was thrown into media spotlight through the activities of one of its members, Osama bin Laden. The financial interests of the bin Laden family are represented by the Saudi Binladin Group, a global construction and equity management conglomerate grossing $5 billion U.S. dollars annually, and one of the largest construction firms in the Islamic world, with offices in London and Geneva. According to an American diplomat, the bin Laden family owns part of Microsoft and Boeing among other companies.[1]

The family traces its origins to a poor, uneducated Hadhrami named Awad bin Laden, a Kendah tribesman from the village of Al Rubat, in the Wadi Doan in the Tarim Valley, Hadramout Province, Yemen. He died in 1919. His son was Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden (died 1967). Mohammed bin Laden was a native of the Shafi`i (Sunni) Hadhramaut coast in southern Yemen and emigrated to Saudi Arabia prior to World War I. He set up a construction company and came to Abdul Aziz ibn Saud's attention through construction projects, later being awarded contracts for major renovations at Mecca, where he made his initial fortune from exclusive rights to all mosque and other religious building construction not only in Saudi Arabia, but as far as Ibn Saud's influence reached. Until his death, Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden had exclusive control over restorations at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Soon the bin Laden corporate network extended far beyond construction sites.

According to the magazine's sources, at least four flights with about 140 Saudis, including roughly two-dozen members of the bin Laden family, flew to Saudi Arabia that week without even being interviewed or interrogated by the FBI.

Clarke, who headed the counter terrorism security group of the National Security Council, said he does not now recall who initiated the request for approval. He said it was probably either the FBI or the State Department, both of which have denied playing any such role.

Is there any way to explain to Donald Duck that no one ever declared war on a religion or a family?
That's enough about Donald Duck, Micky Mouse and Goofy

Mr Minkus, is social Justice the responsibility of religion or government?

"Now, he's hell-bent for destruction, he's afraid and confused
And his brain has been mismanaged with great skill
All he believe are his eyes
And his eyes, they just tell him lies."

from Dylan's license to Kill

But there's a woman on my block
Sitting there in a cold chill
She say who gonna take away his license to kill ?

Sorry I missed the boat while reading my pet goat
videosift.com/.../Bush-s-Unforgivable-Response-To-9-11-not-Troof-Movement

Donna Marsh O'Connor : 9/11 Symposium 11/03/07

I can't blame Donna for being angy if she believe her daughter was told she was safe

I am just as confused by the right wing media
Glenn Beck: "I hate 9/11 victims families for asking questions"

We agree that hate is never justified

I don't want to miss a boat that would float, get your goat or change your vote . thanks for sharing donaldrminikus

"Number two, and I will ask the same question as glen beck, why is it that given the enormity of the hurricane Katrina and the thousands of acres in three plus states and the massive destruction is the news dwelling on a few square miles of new Orleans?"

I respect anyones right two quote all the number two they want, some people are full of it

We must give credit where credit is due, Beck has a cult following so I ask this question once agian ,is social justice the responsibility of religion ,or government?

"ps... glen beck is not a news media he is a talk shower that gives opinion. did you ever hear of the OFF button."
You see that even confusses me more, when a banned member quoted Beck as saying "We have forgotten: We're not Europeans, we're Americans! We run in to burning buildings, not away from them"
She was told how misguided she was,and berated with as much animosity as the tea party has for the government
I thought our government was we the people but now there seems to be as much difference between we and we as what is the difference between them and them

I agree with a lot of what beck says, but it is not genuine to criticise one spin while spinning your own web.

Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. ...

Olberman calls him a racist, Nazi, homophobe. ???? but wont explain why

Why doesn't Beck sue Olberman?
Keith Olbermann Special Comment: There Is No 'Ground Zero Mosque' - 08/16/10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

I don't have to look at edited left wing clips to know who Beck has called a racist, but then again fox is not a news organization they have been proven to be a propoganda organization

I can't blame anyone for being ashamed the clips taken from the talk radio shows

The tea party is not a political entity it is but a label for a movement of those that finally woke up and can see the destruction

Meanwhile, back at the boat, what is the difference between them and them?...and which teaparty supporter will be the next "speaker of the house"...on fire...Nancy's feet have been held there long enough ...eh

You think maybe Christine O'Donnell has a chance?

Rep. John Boehner sprinkles thousands of dollars on Tea Party candidates ahead of midterms
BY Sean Alfano
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Friday, October 22nd 2010, 11:59 AM

Burke/APRep. John Boehner (R-Ohio), has his eye on becoming House Speaker if Republicans win The man who wants to be the new Speaker of the House has a taste for tea.

Rep. John Boehner (R-Ohio) has sprinkled more than $320,000 of his own campaign funds on 39 Tea Party candidates, according to the Washington Post

What is the difference in tea party rhetoric?

Sarah Palin announces her 2010 target list

Most of us on the left really understood that Sarah was talking about votes as most conservative understand the presedent meant in the voting booth

You hunt and know what cross hairs are.

Does Sean Hannity mean it when he calls the president The Anointed One?

Www.postonpolitics.com/.../democrats-our-bullseye-targets-on-house-districts-are-not-like-palins-crosshair-targets/ -

What does a hunter mean to do ..............spank the target? XD

Savages? primitive? wow. you've obviously never been to the east, Donald. but the funny thing is that people here think the same of you. As you pride yourself your freedom to drink and wear revealing clothes (that people by the way here can do freely) and think your country has been attacked because of that. people here as well pride themselves their close tied families and societies, their stable lives, education and morals. they as well claim they're are being attacked by your country because of that, because they're more stable as a society and older and will outlive yours. they talk about incest and abuse both sexually and physically like it happens in every home where you are and they thank god that they don't live there, they also talk about the high level of crimes and seem to think that it's normal for husbands to kill wives and abuse them and would tell you statics and records of such. they call you primitive and savages because they seem to believe you all function like animals not like them according to the right time and place and blah blah blah. it's just so silly. both ways. I would like to really know who got that in both your heads! I'm out of this game. it seems I'm always trying to explain you to them and them to you and being cursed both ways. so be it.

it's obvious you don't want to lead our live and are happy with yours. and that we don't want to lead yours and are happy with ours. so where is the problem? the problem is, again, everyone thinking his is best and the other's is savage and primitive. not to mention that both parties have no idea why they're being attacked. at least we don't. we had no videos! talking about videos, why don't you find me that video you seem to be thinking i didn't find, Donald?

ours lives is just different, Donald, just like yours is. not primitive, not savage. they show you ruins on tv i know and deserts and dirty people with torn strange clothes. lies. they actually show you the ruins they made. they've destroyed whole countries and lives. in the name of what? freedom? revenge? searching for terrorists? they're making them! they've done here worse than you can imagine, they've terrorized, tortured and killed innocents, those who have done that are no better than terrorists.

people here function on tradition more than religion, that's what brings us together. actually the east has so many religions, we have a huge number of Christians, Jews and other believes. I know people who have hard feelings against us think that they're only killing primitive savage Muslims here, well they aren't. so I find it a bit weird that you say Muslims always when referring to the east as if other religions don't exist or function here. a branch of my studies in law is personal affairs for non Muslims, so yes we do have freedom of religion and they are effective. but then maybe just being eastern puts them on the black list with Muslims to you?

-----

as to the koran parts here, let me ask you this.. do you know what is the way of allah? do you even know what does allah mean here other than god?

and again, Martyr is the person who dies DEFENDING his self, his family, his position or his believes. and
before you think that when I say ''his believes''' i mean religion, someone like Rachel Corrie is considered a martyr while someone like osama is considered a MURDERER. despite the fact that Rachel is not a Muslim, but she stood and died for what she believed in.
-----

RE: stoning: believe it or not I've never heard of it happening here until it was mentioned in a previous thread and I've explained that they is nothing at all that encourages stoning in Islam. it does not happen in Egypt or all eastern countries I know of, if anyone here has it in their country then please speak up!

verses of the qur'an mention:

''If any of your women are guilty of adultery, take the evidence of four witnesses amongst you against them, and if they testify, confine them (women) to houses until death claims them, or Allah ordains for them some path.''

four witness? where would you find them?

''if two among you are guilty of vileness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, leave them alone for Allah is kind and merciful.''

no stoning here. actually if I recall correctly a stoning or flogging was the punishment of someone who would accuse someone else of adultery without having three other eye witness of the act itself. they had to be four or not mention a word. this was more to protect people and society from downfall.

as to what I think, adultery no matter how disgusting it was should be considered a crime that is punishable by law. since it's more of a moral responsibility than a legal one.
----

as to the habits or hadith, I said this before, anything that has no biases in the qur'an is not considered confidential, especially if not in either Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim. so want me to get you verses proving them all null and void? again?

as to those on the plans that were heard praising allah. have you heard them? can you say what exactly they said? masha'allah? sobhan'allah? allah? el hamdol allah? ash-hado anla ellah el allah? what have you HEARD? and what does it mean? not to mention that, as I said before and showed links, osama is not even accused of 9/11 on the FBI's list of the most wanted people. you can always check, he's accused of many thing but 9/11 is not one of them.

as to Muslims blaming the USA. again you mean the east, right? eastern countries? arabs? we are not all muslims. we are christians, muslims, jews and many other believes. now about blaming, some did yes, I can't say anything about that. some considered it a reaction to what what's happening in Palestine. however most didn't. most people were disgusted, hurt and angry. it's not only against our believes, but against everything. no one felt happy or liked what happened. some saw it as some sort of karma, I can't deny that. but what has religion to do with it? it's very senseless and I've been cursed for saying it aloud before but it seems that people here think that if something bad happens to them then it's some sort of test from god, but if something bad happens to someone else then it's a punishment from god because they've done such and such. doesn't make much sense to me. it's either this or that. to me it isn't both. it's some other people's actions!

now to Israel, the USA did not fight for it's right to exist, if it did, it should have invited them over. it protected them, their crimes, their killing of another nation to take over a land that is not theirs. they could have lived in palestine peacefully, we have jews here in Egypt, but no, they wanted it. all. I wonder when they talk so broken heartedly about the Holocaust, do they realize that they're doing the same to the Palestinians? are you familiar with the Goldstone report on the Gaza conflict? (just Gaza not the rest of the land they took by force and murder that's another story) I'd suggest reading it before answering this part. not to mention that Goldstone himself is a jew. a fair one at that.
----

''Fact, We are the enemy of Islam period.''

The war is not holy as you call it, Donald. if you really can call it a war. I want you to see, like we do, everyday children killed and houses being dropped over their heads, bulldozers passing over their bodies. I want you to see people living a non human life. I want you to see babies shot infront of their parents and parents infront of their children. I want you to see soldiers spending their time by torturing and setting wild dogs on people. and sometimes even just making targets of them and shooting them. I want you to see them all and not be able to help, just useless. I wonder then how will your feelings be? how sanely would you think and act? I am in no way defending them. I'm saying you're creating a place very rich in raising people who would act abnormally. those young generations have never known justice, care, love or security. just blood. be that in Iraq or Palestine or Afghanistan or wherever. soon, this would be ugly and scary. I'm in no way blaming you btw but the persons sitting safely in their countries and just sending other for their own interest under the name of freedom and fighting terrorist to the east and convincing you of such. so we're not the enemy, you don't even know us. the enemy is right where you are. one of you.

p.s. as to the singing and dancing and eduction part, no one sings and dances more than people here, you have no idea. and our education is one of the best, it's just that they here value dancers and actors more than scientist. so our scientist just go to the west to gain better recognition and they do. always.

Pasted from the washington post
Sarah Palin announces her 2010 target list
1. Former Alaska governor Sarah Palin named 20 Democratic-held seats as top targets for her grassroots followers in a Facebook post late Tuesday night. The seats, all of which were carried by Sen. John McCain (Ariz.) in 2008, are all represented by Democratic members who voted for President Obama's health care plan on Sunday. (The full list of Palin targets is at the bottom of this item.)

"Come November, we're going to print pink slips for

I do admit that the left over reacted to a map on Sara's Facebook that featured an o + with the plus in the middle of the O looking like the crosshairs of a long range rifle site

Exactly.. groups have targeted governments from the the begining of civilization The God of Moses seemed to punish the Egyptians. How are we to do away with government and religion?

This is a quote from that labor dispute
"But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work you, your son or your daughter,
your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns."

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

I may have this wrong but the original tea party targeted the Brits XD

There are those who believe in their Government and those that believe in social science others would like to see social justice in the hands of God

Religion and science have searched for truth and sadly politics sometimes runs from the Truth, the Way, and the Life

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tribute Money by Masaccio"Render unto Caesar¦" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's (Matthew 22:21).

This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about whether it is desirable for the Christian to submit to earthly authority. Interpretations include the beliefs that:

A. It is good and appropriate to submit to the state when asked;

B. Spiritual demands supersede earthly demands, but do not abolish them;

C. The demands of the state are non-negotiable;

D. Spiritual authority should maintain its independence from temporal authority, which rules by force rather than moral law.

E. As everything belongs to God and nothing belongs to any man, including Caesar, then there is nothing to render unto Caesar

Which do you like?

Well said

Though I really have never met a snake handler
My favorite Jerry Clower story was the one where he was asked to do his show in a Church of snake handlers. The congregation gets so excited they start passing around the serpents. Jerry, up in front of the church with his group asks one of them where the back door is. They look and say, "there ain't one". Jerry says, "reckon where do they want one?"

My comprehension is so nil? why, thank you, Donald. this is a first.

To make things clear I have to mention that I was in no way defending, I was explaining the whole issue from another perspective. and never worry about saving my face, I'd rather know exactly what the other person thinks than having a wrong impression, even if explaining means embarrassing me. which is did not, I'm not above misunderstanding. actually no one is.

My problem with your posts was the stereotyping, wrong info without evidence like saying you were attacked because of some verses while I did not see someone mentioning a single verse or even a religious reason. not to mention the wrong verses posted and misrepresented.

I asked more than one question that you didn't answer as well, but then never mind.

If the world is to be peaceful, it's not the causes that need to be eliminated, it's the way people think that needs to change. people create causes, not the other way round, so whatever you eliminated you'd find them comming up with something else.

As to your personal believes about god, it's yours, and between you and him (if he exists) so I have nothing to say about that.