Kieth Olberman

This is actually to continue the difference between them and them discussion, or if you will, them and us

If you are turned off by this commentary feel free to use your off button and skip this discussion
But if you are sincere about understanding cultural differences please go to this link and express any differences of opinion you may have with the veiw point expressed here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

Edited-

after reading Michs explanation

"Can you maybe paraphrase what he is saying in this clip? "
Not at all Britt, but I could just as esily quote you to parahrase what I took from it
"I'm not saying all Muslims are nuts and want to kill everyone else. I'm saying there are some that distort what they read. Take it out of context. People do that on this very site, what makes it so hard to believe it happens elsewhere? It's not something you should need to defend, as I truly believe you are a good person, with good intentions and a good heart. I don't think you think it's right to strap bombs to yourself and kill a bunch of random people. I can honestly say the Muslims I know personally have all been very interesting and very GOOD people."

The theme was the danger of immature sterotyping and taking things out of context as demostrated by Beck in this youtube critique ,which seemed to miss the whole point
Glenn Beck on Keith Olbermann's Special Comment about Ground Zero Mosque
www.therightscoop.com/glenn-beck-mocks-keith-olbermanns-ground-zero-mosque-special-comment -

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2011/01/treason-say-i.html

Yes- but wen I saw ur explanation I replayed and got his main points.

His opening is very interesting tho.. I think he summed up all the most imp points..starting from the Holocaust..to the examples about the aim of the war In IRAQ, To the victims of 9/11..

A rich clip

Are you meaning to tell me there is no such thing as extremists? Because that is who Donald has been repeatedly been talking about.
^^^Fanatics//extremists ARE everywhere.

You can tell us all you want about what is in the book and what Bin Laden was saying.

^^^HE and his crew ARE not Muslims ( at least that's what I THINK, thanks for respecting my opinion In advance), as Britt said they only think they are. And who ever that is taking that path ( bombing etc etc etc..ARE not considered Muslims)AT all

I understand where you are coming from. But you also have to understand that we are talking about the people who distort the Muslim faith but still claim they are Muslim. We're talking about the people who take things out of context.
^^VEry true, and they are MANY

There is a piece in the Bible, Deutoronomey I believe, that says you should stone people. I don't remember exactly why and I don't really care to look it up, because I think it's a joke. Now there are some Christian extremists, who do believe in the old Testament and believe you should stone people for turning from faith. But there are also PLENTY of Christians who do not believe in that.

^^I think this has said it all.

Just as there are people who believe you kill infidels in the name of Allah.

^^JUSt one thing to point out lol..out of topic but why do ppl say ( Allah ) when they are talking about extremists, I know it's how they Say ( God ) but Allah = God; just in Arabic. Makes it sound weird. But God is Allah and Allah is God..Since the debate is in English.

I'm not saying all Muslims are nuts and want to kill everyone else. I'm saying there are some that distort what they read.

^^And I think those who are killing PEOPLe in the name of GOd.. ARe reading the wrong book :). HONESTLY

Take it out of context. People do that on this very site, what makes it so hard to believe it happens elsewhere?
^^^ Good point, but what happens here is nothing compared to the crimes in the outside world!!!

It's not something you should need to defend, as I truly believe you are a good person, with good intentions and a good heart. I don't think you think it's right to strap bombs to yourself and kill a bunch of random people. I can honestly say the Muslims I know personally have all been very interesting and very GOOD people.

^^ yes but that's Cause the Muslims that you know are the ones who read and believe in the Islamic Holly book. That speaks of peace and acceptance of one another.

Not the one that fanatics, and so be called terrorists are killing others in the name of it. Excuse my language it's BULLSHIT as much as Silly, and Shameful. I do not consider them Muslims, I consider them an organization that is actually polluting the reputation of this religion and the view of this religion in the world, due to the misconceptions they have about life it self.

Whether I was from middle east or not. Whether I am American or not. When it comes to humanity and the crimes that are happening every where, in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan , etc etc etc ..
What ever my religion, culture and back ground was.

I should never defend actions that speaks nothing but injustice and cruelty . Criminals are criminals and there is nothing to defend anything they do against humanity. Be it Religion or faith, or a belief.

AGAIN . People in middle east are amazing, honest, loving and caring, but they do have criminals just like every where else. THAT doesn't make anyone from middle east bad.

BEcause I live with Americans as much as with people from middle east. Thank God I have had the chance to be surrounded by both, and they are as good as each other. Would a Bad American, speak in the name of USA ?
Would a terrorist with the American nationality speak in the name of USA ?
Saying I am christian would not make me christian, believing in the Qura'an would not make out of me a Muslim.

Individuals can never represent a culture it self, a religion, or a country. Even if they are many. Every body represent his own-self, his own belief, but never his place and his religion.

It's broader than what they can handle actually.
I will never treat someone for his color, belief, or nationality. I will judge them as individuals, and only due to their actions.

I would stand against my own father if he killed innocent people.
It's how things should go, but again we don't live in the perfect picture of the perfect world.
People are getting offended as soon as they read a name that relates to a certain culture or a certain religion.

But gah..come on

Who ever want to post while they read, please be ready to have an opened heart and an opened ear. We or (I) am not accusing, I am not aiming, and I am not attacking. I am telling the truth of our world, and if we can't admit a simple truth " like" the ones that has been mentioned up by several "etc.." Then I only wonder if this world will ever better, since we are not ready to accept and be convinced as we listen to each other.

Again donaldrminikus thank you for a tower of Babble metaphorically equal to the Tower
of Babel.

The Point of the Ground Zero Mosque commentary was achieved. Most of us cannot make the distiction between religion and God, a Mosque and a community center or paraphrasing and taking things out of context. My God paraphrased the ten commandments into two.

How many times have you heard the leaders of the so called "drestroy the mosque foundation" point to the facts? . After the Spanish Reconquista, it once again became a Roman Catholic church, with a Gothic cathedral later inserted into the centre of the large Moorish building. Today the entire building is used to house the Cathedral of the diocese of Cardoba in Spain.
Gingrich: No Cordoba at Ground Zero?

So what is next, should we remove the churches and mosques because we have yet to define God?
or should we worship the spot where the towers fell?
"Did you know it's not the "Freedom Tower" anymore? It's going to be One World Trade. Why? Freedom tower ooh, yeah, that might be too offensive and we want to make sure we have the occupancy. Who could possibly find something offensive about freedom? Well, China for one. But I don't want anyone in the "Freedom Tower" who is offended by freedom, do you?"
Glenn Beck

How many of us want to remember the great strides
of free enterprise at ground Zero?

"But Niemoller was not warning of the Holocaust. He was warning of the willingness of a seemingly rational society to condone the gradual stoking of enmity towards an ethnic or religious group warning of the building-up of a collective pool of national fear and hate, warning of the moment in which the need to purge, outstrips even the perameters of the original scape-goating, when new victims are needed because a country has begun to run on a horrible fuel of hatred magnified, amplified, multiplied, by politicians and zealots, within government and without."
keith Olberman.. prove him wrong

So what is next, should we remove the churches and mosques because we have yet to define God?
or should we worship the spot where the towers fell?
^^ LOL....................

and pps..why are you aiming at each other..I thought it was going to BE a general debate.. I see we are naming and aiming now..and the subject is being changed AGAIN.

Despite the wat ever relation, but this is taking the wrong path.

Unless you think it's right, then not my business. I WIll watch.

>>>"I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers"
Kahlil Gibran

Yes Brillant aka Sunshine
The purpose of religion should always be aimed at the truth rather than the messenger...angel

Yes Sir. XD very true.

Your points are well taken and it is very nice to debate an intelligent mature man such as you. Thank you for helping me build a proverbial tower of babel that we know will not get us to heaven

Now it is my turn to babble

You know you are just curious about why liberal democrats blame all the failures, of free enterprize to keep americans working for a balance playing feild between labor and management, on the party that wants to downsize goverment or shut it down.

Facts are presented daily. I could spend hours finding sources that would put to question any media you quote and I am sure you could do likewise with me. Jon Stewart's Closing Rally Speech: "If We Amplify Everything, We Hear Nothing"

I will tell you what is going to happen... in two days the republicans are going to take control of the house and double O bama's chance of being a two term president

I was talking with a friend about the twin towers of the costly WTC tragedy, and somehow we ended up discussing the cost of a breast augmentation.

Believe it or not Babylon is in Iraq..that is no joke
We are not sure how to connect the collapse of the WTC to the supposed collapse of the world economy but it is nice to know someone believes there is one person that can lead us to peace and prosperity

Back from Iraq
by Michael D Nalley TC

I do not know too much about that crazy war
Or what those old crazy people are fighting for
But I know that some of the soldiers are back
Glad to be free of a crazy place called Iraq

I do not know why Iraq did not want men to free it
But I know what is beautiful when I see it
A mother's eyes freed from the sorrow,
Of the dangers of her tomorrow

When I search for beauty, I just look where I please
I have not seen more beauty than eyes such as these
Her sorrow will sleep, while she is awake in her joy
Of being reunited with the man she calls her boy

A poet tries to capture beauty with words
As if they could capture the song of the birds
Of course it is impossible but the poet tries
To say with words what can be said better with the eyes

A mother's eyes has more power than the kings of Babylon
They communicate a language of love all may build upon
I know the mother will forgive me for stealing such a beautiful sight
I think she knows a poet needs beauty as the darkness needs the light

If an Arabian poet like Kahlil Gibran could not, why do I babble on?
As if he or I could do what the soldiers were sent to do while they were gone
To free the people from the terrible lies for which they are dying
I know my words won't change a thing, but that does not stop me from trying

They cannot see, or chose not to see, the truth in a mother's eyes
That we do not need a "Tower of Babel," for us to reach the skies

Are you aware that the government now owns the banking system? They own the auto manufacturing system. They own the unions. They own schools, media NPR. They own wall street. They own the real state and housing market. They now own your kids college funding which means they own your college kids. They own the people that are teaching your kids they own the piece of land your house is to be built on. They own and control what you put in your houses such as appliance, insulation, windows ,doors, and what each construct material is made from. Did you know the governments insulated window program is owned by the brother in law of the wacko who runs the environment dept. he makes windows????

^^

I did not read the entire convo, but this particular part caught my eye. In my country it is the same, due to the recession the government is buying up virtually bankrupt banks and getting its paw back into all we fought for in the past, our freedom is being squandered little by little because we have no choice and the ones with no voice ( handicapped, seniors, university students, etc) are the first to feel the effects. We are going back to ancient times, when we had little to no personal freedom and Father State owned our butt and we had to bow down to the the small ,( mentally) corrupt upper class who had the means to become "someone"in our society.

"Ignore the facts and causes and attack the individual not what he is saying.
Your original post was to degrade beck and somehow erect olberman as more informed."

Donald in the comparison of Beck's mocking Olbermann's you might want to check the Beck youtube again and tell me he was seriously attacking the substance of what Olbermann said instead of twisting his words and taking them out of context

The spin starts and stops right here

Olbermann: There is no Ground Zero Mosque
The Countdown host questions American religious tolerance

Olbermann's closing statement was "And in America, when somebody comes for your neighbor, or his bible, or his torah, or his Atheists' Manifesto, or his Koran, you and I do what our fathers did, and our grandmothers did, and our founders did you and speak up."

"I support Keith Olbermann and his idiotic possitions"
That was a quote from Glenn Beck...is he telling the truth?

Lmao

That is comedy

Again I don't blame you for not defending Beck's disenguousness, though I still don't see what you see in Beck. I won't ask and you don't have to tell.

LOL
maybe he is blinking too much cause this debate scared him :)

We all bable here that sometimes I wonder if anyone reads.. at all. XD and with a Mickey and a Donald in the thread, this is getting cartoon-ish. in my own head at least.

''Ask yourself this question would the afghan or the Iraqi or for that matter the whole of the Muslim world let us build a Christian church at Mecca. Eh?''

why do you guys seem to think that you're building mosques in the USA for us? you're not! you're building them for your Muslim american citizens. Mecca or Saudi Arabia is not some place you'd be even allowed to enter without a sponsor Donald, it's by invitation. so why worry about it? you'll never be allowed to enter anyway. it's a place where Muslims go for religious purposes and even when we go, we abide by THEIR rules, you can't have people walking around who are not properly dressed, let along other things. Mecca and Medina are more of a sacred Muslim place.

but then look at all other eastern countries, you have Egypt, Lebannon, Turkey and everywhere else with thasounds of churches. we even have holidays like Easter, christmas and such as a national vaction, do you have our Eids as national vacations? come to think about it, there are not mosques in the Vatican City either, which I understand and don't mind one bit. because you see, if we started a blame game then neither of us will win, because we're not doing it for you either, we're doing it for our citizens who are Christians.

------

@ Britt:

''Are you meaning to tell me there is no such thing as extremists? Because that is who Donald has been repeatedly been talking about.''

Actually no, what I was trying to explain is that it has nothing to do with the religion itself but more with the people. I've repeated that as well. there are extremists, not that I ever met one or I think anyone did. Donald was talking about mainly MUSLIM extremists and when he mentioned verses, habits and someone talked about rewards for martyrs I had to explain. there are many sick people around, I agree, everywhere. and it's not because religion makes them such. that's where I disagree. but then, the most talked about one was Osama, but even he himself said nothing about religion, which goes to showing you that no one watches or thinks themselves but rather hear and just repeat. a major problem. My main reason however of explaining is more to make you guys aware that there is nothing in our religion or society that talks about such acts or even allows it, so that when someone you know talks and just repeats over and over what they hear you'd be able to explain. but then as it is said, a lie would go around the world six times while the truth is still putting on it's pants.

''There is a piece in the Bible, Deutoronomey I believe, that says you should stone people. I don't remember exactly why and I don't really care to look it up, because I think it's a joke. Now there are some Christian extremists, who do believe in the old Testament and believe you should stone people for turning from faith."

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.''

however I don't think that's all to it, I am pretty sure there are conditions to such which makes it impossible to prove the act itself and hence the punishment/penalty would never be applied. I haven't read the old testment so I can't really talk about it, but I am sure someone did and can clear up things?

what many fail to acknowledge is that the main point in cruel punishments was deterrence and making clear how grave was the act because at times adultery wans't even that much of problem. it was common and everywhere. so the punishments were not really made to be executed and it becomes clear when you look at the conditions it's like impossible to fulfill and the fact that there is always more than one punishment and forgiveness is always one of them.

The old and new testaments and qur'an are in essence one, there are slight changes concerning somethings but the base is one. we actually believe in them. in the same god. point is people often just stick to a part without looking at everything said about the issue in whole book. again, a great fault.

'' Just as there are people who believe you kill infidels in the name of Allah. It's not like Donald is making this stuff up - it's something the news media (the uber left, super biased media, I might add, who try to paint everyone but white people in a perfect light lol) has been talking about for ages.''

To be honest I've never heard of seen anyone saying or talking about killing them infidels, except here on p and q and other websites. it seems it's things only for your ears there. I live at the heart of the east, Britt, so it's not like I'd miss it. there is nothing like that.

Nana, have you ever heard any of that?

as to the media, the media is talking about it to put into your heads, they don't have someone to tell them ''hey that's wrong because of such and such and such'', or ''this is against blah blah blah'', or '' this is not true, because..'' . they just talk to you in ignorance about something you know nothing about and show you how lucky you are that you don't life among those, uh, savages? not to mention if someone spoke against it they are called anti-american. i've seen that all those weird scenes, people and news broad casted where you are, never seen it outside your media though.

I think Britt you've actually saw me, right? do I look anything different than anyone you know in the states? does my life, my friends, my clothes seem different? the places i'm in? do I look like the eastern Muslim they paint to you in those medias. hell, by the standards they talk even I would be an infidel and targeted.

anyway back to the media, believe me, it happens here as well, they showed us the burn the quran day videos for example, it was on 24/7 and people here were cursing and cursing and cursing and.. well.. cursing! but did they show us the objections against it? no. did they show us the awesome speech that was said by some lady in the church against it? nope. and I had to get them videos and play them at Uni in class and every time someone talked about the subject I was like, that's not true, it's just some crazy man and everyone is against him. no one would allow it, it won't happen. and I was cursed for it. oh, life is grand.

some people just like to pour fuel to the fire. especially medias. It just seems that they function on that fear people have from everything foreign and different. but then we're all at the end humans, we're the same, so is our basic needs and our wants.

let me tell you that, for every terrorist you think there maybe here, your country, which is my country by birth as well, have sent thousands under various excuses and reasons. three countries down, in ruins. one or more threatened. and people here are wonder who's next. it's not pretty.

-------

now to this thread.

as to Keith Olberman and Glenn Beck, well I read somewhere that ''Olbermann is for people who are literate and educated. Beck and O'Reilly are for people who work the night shift at Sam's Club.'' but then I think Beck is more of entertainment than really any facts, a rather weird entertainment at that. the man does not even know or take responsibility for what he's saying. I watched him saying that Obama hates white people and white culture then when he was asked to explain, he said that he was not saying that Obama does not ''like'' white people, he's saying that the man has a problem. I was like REALLY? I mean if the speaker is insane than at least the viewer or listener should be sane.

oh here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dntOkE-1ICE

not to mention the video Michael posted. I mean seriously, he left everything of value Keith has said and is making fun of the way he speaks? do you guys even listen to such things? here it would be a waste of time and an insult to one's mind. but then who am I to judge, I personally can't stand the man. for reasons yes, but it does affect my point of view on him. again tastes vary.

---

''I showed you where you are wrong and then you say it is babble? ''

what goes around, Donald XD

about the health care bill, it was for your own benefit, people, I don't get you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbWw23XwO5o

the best investments any country could make would be in health care and education. it should be available always and to everyone, no matter what. hence the government should offer it for those who can not afford it privately. it's essential! I never heard Canadians complaining about the health care system where they are, they're rather proud of it actually.

This is a second post. and it's all about economics, so if you're not interested in the subject don't read.

''Are you aware that the government now owns the banking system?''

you mean controls it? oh well, believe me, if the facts or what I've been reading and watching is indeed true then you'd wish it did. google a documentary called ''The money masters'' and enjoy!

here is an interesting quote: "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." - Henry Ford

but then to be honest, to me, whatever the government is trying to do in such crisis is to protect what's left. you're all on the same ship as far as I understand, so it's no wonder. you want them to sit back and watch? of course they'll try to do something. I mean I've heard people screaming at the top of their lungs and cursing Obama and saying he's a socialist, well those have obviously don't even know what's socialism or capitalism and just repeating whatever nonsense they've heard. a major problem where you are if you ask me it seems. and everywhere else. your country is a mixed system with both public and private ownership, so is every other country in the world. the point here is the percentage, how much does the public sector owns and how much does the private. redistribution of income is a must when you have a country that has too much private ownership, because one of the free market system or pure capitalism failures is monopoly, lack of infrastructures, externalities and unfair income distribution. so the government has to interfere to protect competition , to build public utilities and infrastructures that the private sector won't care to build because it's not profitable.. like roads for example and of course to redistribute income, because if it didn't, the rich will become richer since they gain profit and the poor will be poorer and the gap would increase between classes and the economy will eventually crash down. that's when it comes to the failures of Adam smith's free market system problems, so you can't be a mixed country with 80% private sector for example without having a redisruption of income be it through progressive, regressive or flat taxes. not to mention that the government has other responsibilities/role like providing justice, defense and security.. etc. also to provide essential basics and needs at a low cost for those who can't afford it. so what Obama is doing is just what comes with being a more of a private sector ownership than a public one. in the end both Adam smith's and Karl Mark's theories are just theroires and none of it has ever been applied and won't and can't be applied.

now as to the economical problems you're facing, in times of recession there should be a decrease in taxes for those who can't pay and an increase in government expenditures, true, but then when you look at the ways the government can increase it's expenditure it's either through normal/regular ways as taxes, user charge or revenues from the governmental activities or public ownership (which depends on the size of the public ownership which is not so huge where you are and hence is another problem with your system at the times of crisis) or through indirect ways as borrowing money (loans) or Issuing or printing money (but such has to be only when necessary because it causes a very high inflation rate and other problems) so what do you suggest people? it's either taxes, nationalizing certain things so they they get more public revenues or loaning. or all of them. as far as I've studied the man is doing what needs to be done.

--- P.s do feel free to correct me if i'm missing something or wrong about something.

To be honest I've never heard of seen anyone saying or talking about killing them infidels, except here on p and q and other websites. it seems it's things only for your ears there. I live at the heart of the east, Britt, so it's not like I'd miss it. there is nothing like that.

Nana, have you ever heard any of that?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^not that I know of ;)

You know, obviously some over here are being biased to what they are fed. I have no idea why do people join a debate, when they don't even know how to listen.

BABLLing ?
You know they say" I have never won the debate while arguing the illiterate " :)

And ya it is hard to make someone who doesn't want to understand. Understand.
>and sure here I am not talking about education. No.

The comparison of the two arch enemies Olbermann and Beck, in my opinion, is paraprased best by the sign posted one hour ago 'Clowns to the left of me jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you.
CNN determined that was the sign that Jon Stewart was aiming at in his restore sanity/fear rally which they paraphrased as do not divide us

If you just want to be entertianed google Jon Stewart's Pitch-Perfect Glenn Beck Impression or go to the link donaldrminkus provided on olbermann's disengeneous response to Steward's mockery of methods of operation extremest have adopted

Glenn Beck - Interviews - Glenn talks with Jonah Goldberg, author ...
Jan 15, 2008 ... And Woodrow Wilson was in many respects the first -- forget the ... They were the ones who brought us prohibition

When Glenn gives a history lesson he leaves out some important stuff
Volstead Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Volstead Act, formally the National Prohibition Act, reinforced the ... The bill was vetoed by President Woodrow Wilson (largely on technical grounds, ... and the laws passed under its authority became known simply as "Prohibition" ...
Any who watches Glenns destortions should take his advice and back check recorded history

LOL

Stealers Wheels - Stuck In The Middle With You - Offical Video + Lyics

Google... Stewart rally's point -- don't divide us ...

Well I don't know why I came here tonight,
I got the feeling that something ain't right,
I'm so scared in case I fall off my chair,
And I'm wondering how I'll get down the stairs,
Clowns to the left of me,
Jokers to the right, here I am,
Stuck in the middle with you.

Yes I'm stuck in the middle with you,
And I'm wondering what it is I should do,
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face,
Losing control, yeah, I'm all over the place,
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Well you started out with nothing,
And you're proud that you're a self made man,
And your friends, they all come crawlin,
Slap you on the back and say,
Please.... Please.....

Trying to make some sense of it all,
But I can see that it makes no sense at all,
Is it cool to go to sleep on the floor,
'Cause I don't think that I can take anymore
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Well you started out with nothing,
And you're proud that you're a self made man,
And your friends, they all come crawlin,
Slap you on the back and say,
Please.... Please.....

Well I don't know why I came here tonight,
I got the feeling that something ain't right,
I'm so scared in case I fall off my chair,
And I'm wondering how I'll get down the stairs,
Clowns to the left of me,
Jokers to the right, here I am,
Stuck in the middle with you,
Yes I'm stuck in the middle with you,
Stuck in the middle with you.

I was blown away when this song was featured at the rally - Peace Train by Cat Stevens
Yusuf Islam (aka Cat Stevens), accused of backing Salman Rusdie fatwah, appears at DC 'Rally to Restore Sanity'

Egypt, Donald, I'm Egyptian.

as to your post, let me pretend to agree with all you said for a moment (I don't), so what do you suggest your country should do now to stand on it's feet again as before?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936#

this is an interesting documentary. so what's your thoughts on this? and how much of this is true?

-----

''Obama is a socialist and its been proven.''

Britt, I have to say for a moment I was thinking.. NO COMMENT!!

socialism is a THEORY. an impossible one at that, it's never been applied and never will. I suggest you read all about it first. it's weird seeing people fear him turning the USA into a socialist country. oh well. as far right economic is concerned it can't be done.

The New Party (which I think is your prove?) is a social democrats party. they are a far cry from socialism and/or communism (since they're not the same). just because sick Mr. Beck has called Obama a socialist, a Marxist, a racist and more doesn't mean the man is all that. he is controversial, yes, but not a socialist, though there is nothing wrong with BELIEVING in the principles of such theory. but as far as things are he doesn't.

Obama has studied economics apparently because he knows both systems. and is trying to make the best of both. in his own way. he believes in the state/government but he also believes in the free market. socialists don't. he believes the best way to help the poor is to economic reform, Marxist, communist and socialist believe that capitalism can not be reformed. if you look at it, he is not shutting down the private sector while expanding the government's to cover parts like health care which is essential to all people. that's not socialism. I would recommend that you read about economic systems and theories first before really getting into this.

and here's from the experts mouths..

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28645

as to Beck teaching you about the founders of your country, you know, you should really read first all about them, have your own opinion before listening to Glenn Beck. the man has the weirdest opinions with no basics or anythings. like the ''white culture'' part. seriously? not to mention that things like history should be taught by professors and people very knowledgeable in such fields. but then it's your choice anyway. I still don't and can't stand the man. and yes, I've heard and seen him. as I said, tastes vary.

"Beck doesn't teach me anything,"

I agree

The only reason Beck was brought into this discussion stemed from a quote I borrowed from another thread on this site Glenn Beck's Message on 9/11
I recall that when some else posted Glenn's speech or commentary that person was attacked as being misinformed

Does Glenn beck provide accurate information or not?

At least you have common sense XD

So you know that Glenn Beck is a master at taking things out of context

"Glenn Beck is definitely a love-him or hate-him kind of guy. I don't know someone who is indifferent about him that has actually heard him, lol. I personally love what the guy says and the goofiness he brings to his show sometimes. He has me crying one second and cracking up the next - hey - he is a commentator. Thats what they do."

"Glenn Beck may be shot for treason in Arabia, so I guess it's a damn good thing he's here in America, isn't it? I'm not sure what Glenn Beck OR Oprah have anything to do with this discussion whatsoever, but it seems you have some sort of secret love affair with Glenn Beck."
britt
Jon Stewart destroys Glenn Beck on the MLK rally on Aug,28th - America: Mosque or Mausoleum?
I think that if Jon Stewart proved anything it is that we all are fed up with having opinions fed to us
cat stevens defense to the twisting of the truth
I'm very sad that this seems to be the No. 1 question people want to discuss. I had nothing to do with the issue other than what the media created. I was innocently drawn into the whole controversy. So, after many years, I'm glad at least now that I have been given the opportunity to explain to the public and fans my side of the story in my own words. At a lecture, back in 1989, I was asked a question about blasphemy according to Islamic Law, I simply repeated the legal view according to my limited knowledge of the Scriptural texts, based directly on historical commentaries of the Qur'an. The next day the newspaper headlines read, "Cat Says, Kill Rushdie." I was abhorred [appalled?], but what could I do? I was a new Muslim. If you ask a Bible student to quote the legal punishment of a person who commits blasphemy in the Bible, he would be dishonest if he didn't mention Leviticus 24:16.

Again Jon Stewart was commented on by Olbermann when huffington praised Stewart's call to moderation. At least Jon Stewart sees himself as a joker who sometimes takes goverment seriously

As Stewart says oppossing groups work together every damn day . Labor needs management and management needs labor.

Somewhere in this country there is a registered Republican, Donald R Minkus, that is looking for a light at the end of the tunnel

Whether it be New Jersey or shutting down our government. we as americans are sometimes, sane ,honorable, and fearful at the same time

The one area that I agree with Beck on is that the government did not give us the right to take dignity from our fellow americans. I am sure many who have dreamed of the promised land may not get there

If the private sector wants to build a peace train I say more power to them

When we as individual are all motivated by something other than greed band six more deadly sins we can image there is no goverment or religion

The John Henry's may be not needed but what are the slave drivers going to do when they are replaced

Peace Train by Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) put that in your youtube and play it

Dick Cheney's Got A Gun if you preffer cartoons

Britt, what exactly has he shut down?

I may not agree with everything Obama has to say. but I respect the man. He is not trying to just shut people up by doing whatever they wish (like cutting down taxes for example) in his period and just leaving the problems to the next president to come in line. in his own way, he's trying to stabilize the country and make an outline and basis on which the country would benefit from in LONG TERM not just now. To reach all people and secure them. To invest in education and health care. he's investing in the youth of this country. in the future.

''Have you read his book about the dreams of his father?''

a book about the dreams of his father? you mean ''Dreams FROM my father'' ? No, I didn't read it, but I do have the book and did skim it. anything in particular you're referring to? I did however read ''The Audacity of Hope'' twice.

so let me quote him:

''our history should give us confidence that we don't have to choose between anoppressive, government-run economy and a chaotic and unforgiving capitalism. It tells us that we can emerge from great economic upheavals stronger, not weaker. Like those who came before us, we should be asking ourselves what mix of policies will lead to a dynamic free market and widespread economic security, entrepreneurial innovation and upward mobility. And we can be guided throughout by Lincoln's simple maxim: that we will do collectively, through our government, only those things that we cannot do as well or at all individually and privately. In other words, we should be guided by what works.''

''With Americans changing jobs more frequently, more likely to go through spells of unemployment, and more likely to work part-time or to be self-employed, health insurance can't just run through employers anymore. It needs to be portable. The market alone can't solve our health-care woes--- in part because the market has proven incapable of creating large enough insurance pools to keep costs to individuals affordable, in part because health care is not like other products or services (when your child gets sick, you don't go shopping for the best bargain).''

does not sound like socialism to me at all. not one bit.

-------------------------------

Donald, I have to confess I am totally ignorant when it comes to banking and monetary policies. I'm more into fiscal policies and public finance. but it comes to controlling money supply and central and commerical banks and interests and such, I'm lost. so let me read the basics from the start and get back to you.

as to socialism, capitalism and communism. none of them have been used or can be used actually. what has been used and tried are some of their principles which could have been applied. but them as a whole? no. never. let me try to explain in brief..

-- the free market economy (capitalism laissez faire system)

here it's a fully private ownership with no government ownership or public sector whatsoever be it in the form of banks, schools.. etc. there is none. decisions are taken by individuals. price mechanism is the only guide for taking decisions, something that Adam smith named ''the invisible hand'' because the markets and economy will self adjust themselves to the equilibrium without any governmental intervention. sounds good, doesn't it? but is impossible to apply. and it's disadvantages/side effects are terrible. the basic needs and goods for the poor would be neglected because they don't represent a source of profit. merit goods such as education and health care would not be provided by the government but just the private sector and hence not everyone would afford it. with no governmental control on the economy there will be so many externalities such as pollution for example. there will be also monopoly. people who are rich will become richer and people who are poor will become poorer, illiterate and with a lot of health issues. a disaster.

now as to the command or centrally controlled economy that contains both communism and socialism

here all decisions are taken by the central authority which is the state/government. the state owns all the factors of production and the decisions are done through a central plan stating all the objectives and targets concerning what, how and for whom to produce. consumer sovereignty disappears. there is NO PRICE SYSTEM. no profit motive and hence no incentive to work.

Mixed system

it's a mixture and combination of both systems, the free market and the controlled economy. there are both private and public ownership, a plan and a market system. the government is responsible of producing essential goods, public goods and meriet goods for the poor and the whole population while the private sector produces other goods, or the same, under the indirect supervision of the government.

this system is the one applied all over the world. the difference is the forms of combination of public and private sectors and the percentage of each. no economy has ever been purely free market economy or pure command economy.

-----------

the problems with socialism however is not that we can think, the problem is that most humans don't function that way. there is always the ''greed'' factor and everyone think they're best and hence deserve more. there would also be no real fairness.. who would collect the garbage? who would do the dangerous or risky jobs? and another problem would be that it could never function on one country without the others. so on the macro economical level it would fail. so unless you just cut all connections with the outside world it would fail also on the micro economical level.

as to ants, yes, come to think about it, they are a perfect example for socialism. nice.

______________________________________________

not related to the discussion but a reply to Britt..

I have not stated a word of you being stupid. you thinking that ''I've said that without really saying it'' is the most strange. i don't think I'm responsible about how you feel about what I wrote or more like what I haven't wrote. I did not state anything about college as well. as to Glenn Beck I said tastes vary and I don't like the man and stated why, but it's seems others do and that's none of my business. again, tastes vary.

you however saying that I have not listened to him as if it's a fact was rather interesting, because I have indeed listened to him before and yes, he does ask you to ''do your own homework'' and yes, I still can't stand him and think him ignorant and does not know what he's talking about in most cases. which is MY OWN POINT OF VIEW and not for discussion. just like yours when it comes to Olberman. not to mention that whatever Beck says adds nothing of value to me, it's boring, stupid and shallow. like him. so there. but if it does add anything to anyone then by all means feel free to listen!

''Beck doesn't teach me anything, he gives me things to research myself.''

well it was you who proudly stated ''Beck had a show every Friday called founders Fridays, where he taught us about all the founders''. and that's why I used the word ''teach''. now you're saying he doesn't teach you anything? he either does or doesn't.

''I did not learn about the correct founders of my country because the Progressives in the early 1900's wrote them OUT of our history!''

now that's interesting, if I get what you're saying right because I don't think I do. because then how did Beck know them? and how are you able to research them? I think I missed something?

''So don't tell me professors should be teaching me anything - they're all full of complete crap.''

no, of course they won't. people like Glenn Beck would.

on a serious note, you could always read you know? but then now you'd say that authors as well would state the facts from their own opinion and hence they won't teach you anything and we would go on until forever like this. please don't tell me you don't have just one reliable history book there? or more like, please don't ask me to believe that. but anyway you know what I do in such cases? read just two or three books, mark the things in common, they'll be mostly facts.. as to the things that are not, which would be more of reasons and assumptions, not really facts that happened and were documented.. anyway as to those, you now have more than an opinion and can form your own conclusion? I think you just said your common sense is ok up there. so you should have no problem.

'' In 12 years of school, I did not ONCE read the Constitution. I learned the Bill of Rights in Law class, but that was it.''

Britt, are you serious? don't tell me! how could they!? SUE THEM! XD (lol for those who distinguish between jokes or not with a ''lol'')

well guess what, they never gave us the constitution to read at school either and so many other things. I don't know why people want everything to be fed to them in schools with silver spoons and while they are in school they complain about the load they're studying. hello, there are libraries? if you're interested in something go there and get it! most of the things i know, remember and use now have been from things I've read that had nothing to do with my so called curriculum. actually most of the things I studied in school have been forgotten and totally evaporated from my mind during summer vacations, for some reason, to the point that I needed to re-read some of them after I was done with high school all over again.

''The man has weird OPINIONS so he can't tell anyone fact? Really? I think you have weird opinions, seeing as they totally differ from mine, but I don't say that everything you say is false. I don't say every link you provide is completely not true. I don't discount every post you make because I don't always agree. I take it into consideration and I try to understand and listen. I don't turn a blind eye because you're opinions are odd to me.''

well I was trying to put it nicely by saying ''weird opinions''. my bad. what I meant is the man, to me, is sick enough to twist facts his own way and even add to them some spice. disagreeing with someone is one thing and what I mean here is another. and again that's according to my own evaluation. I did not try to change your opinion about Keith Olberman though I listen to him and like him enough and I did not take your attack on him as an attack on his listeners so please try doing the same.

Yes, Britt, I went to school in the states. I was nine or almost ten years old when I returned from Nebraska. however I should tell you that no country really ever teaches constitution in schools. not any that I know of. if someone here knows a country that does then please do say.

also as you know Britt I am a senior law student and even we don't read constitutions, unless you do it yourself, they just let us know and practice how to interpret articles. that's the most important skill, then you're on your own. true we study and discuss the most important and controversial articles, the new amended ones..etc. but then our constitution is a CONSTITUTION. so we'll need 4 extra years to read and go through everything in there in class/lectures.

''How many kids will honestly do extra research, more than they have, while in school? ''

who's problem is that? mostly parents if you ask me. I have to admit my dad has forced books down my throat when I were younger. not to mention he'd read to me whatever I don't want to read to capture my interest or let me know whatever he wants me to know by force XD sometime he'd also get me a part and asks me to read it for him. and until now actually he'd recommend books to me all the time and ask me what I think about them. you can't always depend on schools, Britt, you won't be in school forever.

''The government is not supposed to be in education. The second they stepped into the system, our SAT scores started slinking downward. ''

and that's the problem of the government? or the people ruining the system? or the teachers? or the students?

do you know what are Obama's thoughts on this btw? it's rather interesting if you ask me. I can quote him to you from his book if you don't. I'm sure you'll like it.

oh, and there is no need at all to stay away from debates. I don't bite. If you just don't put words into my mouth or try to read between the lines some hidden ill meaning that I did not intend to start with. everything should be fine.

I never wanted to prove anyone wrong, if that comment was for me. I do discuss, disagree and agree and state when I'm wrong and when I have no clue. i don't know why some think me a know it all. i'm not and yes, sometimes I'm wrong and when I'm such I'll tell you. and sometime I do change my mind. a lot actually. it's not something I'm embarrassed of. I'm no encyclopedia neither is anyone except of course Michael XD he has one always handy.

---

'' People who read books but do not live the way cannot 100% understand, just as I could never pretend to understand how it is in the Middle East..''

and there we go again. same point you always throw at me all the time. Britt, I read your newspapers. I watch your shows. I lived and was born in the states and I have many friends there and we discuss almost everything. I know people where you live that have no clue what goes on in their country as I know people who know every thing that goes there.

if you read our newspapers and you know our culture, life and read our books and know our language then I see no problem whatsoever why you should not understand what's going on here.

I am excited too ...Keith Olbermann proposed a scenario where Boehner was seriously concidering this as an oportunity to govern after being a career politition since 1991, rather than wait for the privite sector to put the unemployed back to work Even though it appears that most of the private sector is not motivated by anything other than greed Beoner felt a clear message that shutting the government down is not what all of the voters expected from the public servants they have shifted the power to

Well, here's your next Speaker of the House, America: Cryin' John Boehner, who almost turned on the waterworks during his speech after it became clear last night that Republicans are going to win back the House. Boehner -- who, as Keith Olbermann pointed out after his speech, was overpainted himself as just a man of the people rather than on old-time pol -- complained about how "out of touch" Washington has become. Pot, meet kettle.

The Bush tax cuts were set to expire by Bush .....Congress can pass bills in a lame duck session. The private sector has no excuse to sit on the bail out money any longer... you are right

Cleanliness is next to godliness and godliness is healthy

Our brains should be pretty healthy as many times as the media has washed them XD

Benjamin Franklin wrote that "nothing is certain but death and taxes," but that is only half-true. There is absolutely nothing dead-certain about taxes this year.

"Unless Congress acts soon, almost all of the "Bush tax cuts" and credits that were enacted in 2001 and 2003 will expire at the end of this year. Most financial analysts and Washington insiders say they don't expect that to happen. But if it does, you -- the American taxpayer -- are in for a tax hike. A big one." quote from Fox

"Heres my thought. This is the LAST chance for the GOP. They screw up here, the party is ov-er."
That is my thought also . The thirty-eight million the Grand Ole Party spent in this midterm will be worth a long term gain if they can fix this ecomony

Quickly first. Paraphrase. Somewhere is a registered republican donaldrminikus It is no more possible to paraphrase personal belief than it is collective beliefs I am not the only Michael D Nalley and there are more people that have used the name Donald R Minkus than you may care to admit
We are in a democratic republic but you and I can call ourselves what we want as we expore the difference between them and..................

ROFL @ Michael's brain washing comment. can I go there to have mine washed please? XD

''I wont stay away for long. I just get incredibly frustrated when someone tries to tell me our kids should learn the Constitution on their own. In order to play nice, I need a break. Now I've just decided to ignore certain things in order to save my brain.''

well, Britt, it's not like i'm the one deciding or it's my word. however what I meant is, school won't teach you everything and you should teach your kids how to look into or read whatever they are interested in or how to add to them what you think they should know and the school is not teaching. i'm all for any added subjects or information that would be of a value for them in life but since it's not there and instead of just throwing everything on school and siting and complaining that it did not teach us such and such.. well go do it yourself or guide your children yourself until the system changes. maybe those children when they grow up and know how much such was important and helped them they would add it to the system. but I have to say that not learning about something in school is not at all an excuse for being ignorant about it and that was my point.

---

''Our enemies are not from the outside our enemies are from with-in. ''

couldn't agree more. but then of course I've said that before.

It seems you and Britt have a major problem with professors there though. which is weird. I am taught by American professors here all the time at the AUC, which is the American University in Cairo, and they do not brain wash us or tell us wrong or one side/opinionated views. it is also not a very good thing to stereotype.

I do watch fox news and MSNBC, it is obvious that Bernie Goldberg does too. If I believed comedy was the aim of fox I would laugh but those people are so stupid it is pathetic. Golberg was upset because the people at msnbc did not invite a GOP or a tea party Rep so they could humiliate them face to face like the jokers at fox do to the democrats that they talk over. Then he complained that the panel giggled like school girls when they interviewed the winners and no matter what they asked they got talking points. I will give credit where it is due, they contradict themselves so much they must tell the truth some of the time.

If the private sector aka wall street does not need main sreet or the government how can you claim the democrat bailed them out with funds they never received? Have you been hypnotized?
Why don't we forget about talking points that have brain washed us and stop spinning lies. If the private sector wants to make a profit overseas what do you think your tea party will do about that?
The mean ole labor unions regulate safety and put human lives above profit. Taxes pay for law enforcement that keeps Paladino's bat metaphorical

Said Keith Olbermann: "One can say that Ms. ODonnell in that set of demands that she just issued after not winning the race doesn't know the meaning the of defeat. And one can probably speculate that she doesn't know the meaning of several other words"

I don't expect you to find Olbermann's diatribes any more helpful than I find Glenn Beck's diatribes helpful or funny.
www.mediaite.com/.../sean-hannity-and-panel-rail-on-the-rally-to-restore-cat-stevensyusuf-islam
Acually after tonights performance by Sean Hannity he proved himself to be more of a hypocrite than Beck in his potrayal of a story that was started by right wing propaganga. It only slightly resembles anything that happened with a guest of Jon Stewarts ralley
Cat Stevens pretended to support the call for death of Rushie when a reporter was trying to get him to denounce his commitment to Islam

Rushdie came from a Muslim family but says that he was never really religious. In 1990, in the "hope that it would reduce the threat of Muslims acting on the fatwa to kill him," he issued a statement in which he claimed "he had renewed his Muslim faith, had repudiated the attacks on Islam in his novel and was committed to working for better understanding of the religion across the world." However, Rushdie later said that he was only "pretending

Listen to Glenn Beck explain comedy while he pretends he wants to vaporize France
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul9YGlapNiA

Please babble on

Side note; mikey never take my thoughts as personal I enjoy you arouind here. Im just argueing a principle not the person."
This reflects my feelings exactly donaldrminkus

Do not take this personally, Britt , but it will be interesting how this will be spun by fox news with the recent firing of Juan Williams from NPR
FoxPAC -- Fox News hosts and contributors raise big bucks for GOP
The plot thickens

Makes me wonder if Sara Palin gets a check from fox news?

Michael Moore thanked Sean Hannity for an increase in book sales after appearing on his segment

Karl Rove, the former senior adviser and deputy chief of staff to President George W. Bush, today thanked President Obama and the White House for helping him raise money for Republicans to spend in the midterm elections.

The right wants the president to go to Pakistan but in evey syfy I have ever seen the brother gets it first XD

The CNN report is that the guidlines of news networks are similar as maybe site rules and guidlines. If MSNBC has a provision for which party you may or may not support the constitutionality of this rule will be brought into question by the mainstream media.

"Olbermaniac is employed by a company that prohibits its claimed journalists from donating to campaigns no matter what the party. He got caught. But I think it was more than that. His ratings were in the tank and getting worse. as is mathews , maddow mr ed the talking horse....."

(Hannity, it should be noted, is a commentator, not a news anchor So he is employed by an organizatition that allows rumors to be reported as fact. It is sad that we don't even have to pretend to respect the office of the president while fox whines that Michele Bachmann ,who has no resonsibilty to prove anything she states as fact , is just a pinhead that was elected senator and she was not given respect by Matthews Let me ask you something "Congresswoman Bachmann, are you hypnotized tonight ... Has someone hypnotized you? Because no matter what I ask you you give the same answer. Are you hypnotized? Has someone put you under a trance tonight?"

The trip that beck is imagining cost 200,000,000,000 a day is not being desclosed as it would be useful for anyone that would like to kill an american diplomat to know how much security is provided . I have not come to expect resonsible news anchors to be hired by Fox

"Still, considering the GOP undying love for undisclosed contributions, I would fully expect that the Professional Conservative Criers of TV and Radio to be in full swing on this issue and rush to defend Keith."

"So; Rush, Glenn, Bill, and so on, and on; are you outraged? "

All I know is what I read in the papers." He then made jokes about what he had read in that day's newspapers. The line "All I know is what I read in the papers" is often incorrectly described as Rogers's most famous punch line, when it was in fact his opening line. We are in a different media era now and my sister whom I love so dearly told me I was full of it when I reapeted the above quote

The fact is the economy was in trouble before this administration passed a single law. Any media error such as adding or substracting a zero will cause the market to change in a matter of minutes. In the days of F.D.R he was able to get the quote "There is nothing to fear but fear it self " to the people. I need to go to church with the faith that the media does not control fear and that when Beck says F.D.R was wrong from his point of view and fear is a useful tool we should look deeper. I would hope you will look deep into your spirit for the truth that is still as rare today as it ever was becauseb we have become more effecient at spreading opinions of the cult leaders

Well I don't believe everything I have read. I do believe this has everything to do with the original topic and it does not surprize me that we are playing a blame game. The fireside chats were only heard by those with radios and my folks remember more about the reels of Eisenhowers golf games of the fifties. I was to young to remember all of the great press Martin Luther King got. I was eight years old in a catholic school when John Fitzgerald "Jack" Kennedy (May 29, 1917 November 22, 1963 }got assasinated and rember a lot of people crying.
A great american once said this
"Tower of babble? You see thats whats wrong about this country. You addressed the problem superbly. Ignore the facts and causes and attack the individual not what he is saying."

"If by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."
JFK

Ask not what your funny farm can do for you .but what you can do for your funny farm

Olbermann's fans note that he's made no secret of his support for Democrats on his prime-time "Countdown" show. So why should he be suspended for putting his money where his mouth is?

Years from now, when we look back on Bill Clinton's presidency, its defining moment may well be Clinton's rationalization to the grand jury about why he wasn't lying when he said to his top aides that with respect to Monica Lewinsky, "there's nothing going on between us." How can this be? Here's what Clinton told the grand jury (according to footnote 1,128 in Starr's report):

PRINT
DISCUSS
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

What you are repeating is what the left easily puts out as propaganda and deceit because as John Kerry has said "the electorate is gullible". They own the media so the media defends their lies and the gullible eat it like ice cream.

If I asked you whether the voters represented the
will of the people in the 2000 election could you answer with a simple yes or no?

Is our government a private sector or is it we the people?

Did we all shoot our friend in the face?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fcYKVj23FU