RE: Soldiers

I thought I'd start this for more of a discussion about how you feel about soldiers, government, wars and foreign policies. (whatever you wish to discuss)

Feel free to re-post your opinion from sherry's thread to this one if you already had stated your opinion there.

--I might be away till the 29th, or off and on but not daily, so I'm not ignoring you or hiding if I don't reply till then. Exams are evil.

Warning: If you suffer from a high blood pressure, take things exceedingly on your nerves and/or extremely passionate about this subject then just skip this post or at least the last paragraph. I don't want someone to accuse me of murdering you or god forbid sending someone to the hospital. fair warning?

So as to soldiers, I believe a soldier's job is to defend one's country in one's own country . I also happen to think that every country is sovereign and equal (or at least so states international law), and hence, no other country under whatsoever reasons should stick its nose into another's country business. Defence comes from inside, not outside. You block/stop an attack, not go attack yourself. Even in disputes between people themselves, let alone countries.

As for people believing that their ''selfless countries'' are fighting for other countries freedoms by sending troops (to terrorize and destroy those countries instead, mind you) that's one thing that's always confused me. Since when do countries send soldiers to ''free'' other countries and fight for others rights. You'd think those countries would send people to spread awareness, they'd send money, they'd open schools, projects and activities, scholarships and education opportunities between both countries or they'd even exercise their very effective policy of pressure, but send troops? To free people? Troops? Do you guys really, honestly and truly believe that? Oh well.

Ok, even if you do, whoever said these people want ''your freedom'' to start with and even IF they did who said the price YOU made them pay was worth it ? (price: terrorizing and killing them and destroying their countries that most of them had to flee, mind you), and who said, that if they truly did want such, freedoms/rights or whatever you call it, they couldn't have fought for it? It's a fact that if people of one country, the majority that is, really want a certain thing no force whatsoever could stop them, look at Tunis, they out thrown their whole government and president and in lesser than a month. (without your valuable interference).

Anyway back to freedom, Just think of this, Saudi Arabia, for example invading, no, cross that, lets say.. sending their oh so selfless troops to the USA to free American women from hard labour and work, killing your president, destroying your country, terrorizing you, burying you under the ruins of your houses and making sport out of killing you (which really does happen, want videos?) and then telling the whole world what one hell of a good job they did for you, for now your women are rightfully in their right place. Home. and no longer working their asses off like servants but queens. Funny, is it not? But that's their opinion. It's all a matter of a culture and tradition and upbringing.
Problem is, Some people are arrogant enough to not see anything but themselves and their lives and countries and freedoms as best (including us easterners in eastern countries, to be honest, including me) but playing god and forcing it on everyone else is what causes all this mess.
As for Al Qaeda, it's hard for me to think that if the mighty USA really wanted to get them they wouldn't have until now, as hard as it for me to think that they or Osama bin laden really had anything to do with 9/11 (it's just that the USA thinks it's best they remain unfound, since they are their justification of doing anything in the east, just throw the name Osama, with islam, with Qaeda and terrorism and you have a green card to do anything) but lets assume they did, does that justify what the USA did to Afghanistan and to innocent civilians and people? I'd bury my head in the sand before talking so surely about Afghanistan or defending what was done there. It wasn't defence, it was more of revenge.

However, I do think ''some'' soldiers are victims as well, some have no other way, they need it because of some advantage be it pay, a scholarship or whatever, some others are brain washed by the government and both have no choice but to follow orders at times. not that I consider that an excuse, but it can not be denied that their country is ''buying'' such political interest or greed or whatever by the lives of their soldiers. Disgusting. However, still, some soldiers are inhuman and animals to say the least.

To sum this up, and I know I'll get hell for this, but I don't think anyone in such war deserves my thanks, glorification or even respect. Most of them are even in the same box as terrorists (according to my classification). All terrorist are brain washed by others into thinking that what they're doing is something great and honourable, that they're ''saving'' the world and people and what not, that they're heroes. so I think it depends on how you look at it. They as well, I believe, can tell you a hundred reasons of why what they did was and is for the best.

All terrorist are brain washed by others into thinking that what they're doing is something great and honourable, that they're ''saving'' the world and people and what not, that they're heroes. so I think it depends on how you look at it. They as well, I believe, can tell you a hundred reasons of why what they did was and is for the best.
^^

I too agree with this, its all about perspective and what way one looks at something. Like I said in the original soldier thread, Im sure many German people fully supported the Nazi army and had genuine causes for supporting them. Doesnt make it right.

I dont quite understand how people can totally 100% divorce troops from the government who send them. Obviously they aren't one and the same, but soldiers like it or not represent the government, they sign up to do so. Many may deserve respect and admiration, and nobody can deny its a difficult job, but it is their job to carry out wishes of the government, whatever they may be.

I dont claim to know much about the American government, (so excuse if any of the following is inaccurate in terms of factual detail.) It has often been throughout history that apparently stupid unpopular decisions by many countries esp regarding going to war, cause suffering and loss of life, but not to the decision makers themselves. To quote George Bailey in Its a Wonderful Life.. 'that this rabble you're talking about... they do most of the working and paying and living and dying in this community.' But hey, I guess that is democracy.

By George Bush making the decision to go to Afghanistan and Iraq, he effectivly sentenced Im guessing thousands of American troops to die, and thats just Americans. One could argue that under Saddam Hussain, many more people were being killed and oppressed, and that if he had made the decision not to go after Al Queda, that more attacks could have been made on American soil. But then by same logic, why not go to Rwanda to end the genocide there, for example, if it's within ones power to do so and save lives? Where does one draw the line, who can say if a country needs liberation, what country needs it, and when does liberation turn into something else? Should hard working citizens pay their taxes to see them being pumped into a distant war or 'liberation?' Only the decision makers and government individuals can know their own true motives for making such decisions, to which the public can only speculate and estimate. Then again looking back and analysing motives isnt going to turn back time or change anything that has happened. History books or facts don't have room for 'what ifs.'

I support troops on an individual basis. If I meet them and they are cool, I'll support them.

I don't just support whole groups, especially not when, from a certain point of view they are hired to kill people by a government I don't trust, and never have.

It might be an honourable thing to serve your country, but not everyone does it for honourable reasons.

Nor, don't forget the other type of understandable issues, the pathetic part that is happening in Palestine where Palestinians OUGHT to pay for Israel to have their houses demolished over their properties..

(nno no I mean, can you imagine yourself being forced to pay for someone to destroy your own house infront of your own eyes, so they build a new one for their own people.. THAT'S HORRIBLE)

Or in Iraq, can I know how are the soldiers fighting for their countries, by rapping the women ? and torturing men and children..baring a bunch of men all together and taking pictures for them as they get electrocuted!! Man ya what a fair fight

Yes there are videos, yes there are pictures..and if you want to say someone is fighting for his country..then its this way : I invade your country, you fight against me to free yourself ..not go invade another country to fight for yours. That doesn't make sense for me either, whether my opinion is respected or not. But if I put the blame on anything it would be MEDIA.

Actually, Bob, my boyfriend was in Vietnam and we talk about it a lot.

Brilliant, I agree with you that the MEDIA is a huge part of the blame; however, we must also blame ourselves. How often do you sit and watch the news stories or read an article instead of turning off the television or putting the paper down?

As long as there is an audience then the media will continue to publish whatever gives them ratings.

Yes I know, but I personally have a huge interest in politics, and I read and search and watch as much as I can..

And the more I read the more I get sick..the world is full of BS and injustice. And few are those who know the truth

watch :
NOTE: both of the links contain pictures that maybe be harsh on the eyes..but they are "blured" however

Colm regarding this :

One could argue that under Saddam Hussain, many more people were being killed and oppressed, and that if he had made the decision not to go after
^^

saddam was a dictatorial..a killer..was anything but he did not allow this to happen in his country :
no matter how unjust he was, just not bad as you can see through the following links..:

in IRAQ :

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

http://www.aztlan.net/torture_iraqi_pows.htm

1st link :(Photos Show Rape of Iraqi Women
by US Occupation Forces)

2nd link : US Occupation Forces
Torture Iraqi POW's
-----------------------------------------------------------

in Palestine :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36r8eSmpGx4

^^^
Israel Soldiers Breaking Bones Of A Young boy In Palestine

http://vodpod.com/watch/862351-israels-breaking-the-bones-strategy

^
Here this live video clip shows Israeli soldiers using bricks and rocks to break the bones of Palestinians

^^^
is this what we call.."freedom"..defense ? fighting for the country..or is it what lies beyond the title

Well sigh*

I think the whole world is a very funny pathetic game, manipulated by those who got money..and power..
we are their toys, whether we like it, or not

No wonder the saying "All's fair in love and war," came to being. Atrocities of all kinds, by all sides, have been committed throughout history. Normal rules dont apply in war. Obviously this is wrong, but I would predict it is next to impossible to eradicate, such is the nature of war. Certain people are allowed to get away with murder and worse, as they hide behind the fascade that 'its war.' It is an excuse for some people to committ such crimes. People get life imprisonment, even the death penalty for things like on those photos in the US, but it gets shooed under the carpet when it happens in 'war.' Little wonder I wouldn't support any troops in a collective sense of the word.

Trust ME, if the soldiers where not allowed, they won't ddo IT..they are taking the pictures.. No body is punishing no body, lol..why would they ? they consider it a way of "fighting for the country" I have what's worseee...but nothing to be displayed over such a site. It's not the aim either.

GOOGLe..ust go Google crisis iin Iraq..in Palestine.. Google rape cases in these countries by the soldiers..Google what ever that comes to your mind, and guess what ? you WILL find it (:

There are some very good points here about soldiers functions and politics, yet i am not agree with starting this sencente
"and hence, no other country under whatsoever reasons should stick its nose into another's country business". I think problem that exist in today's society is that we are soaked in selfishness. Think about human rights Liu Xiaobo's Nobel Peace Prize persecution by the Chinese authorities, who sentenced him to 11 years in jail for "inciting subversion of state power" after an unfair trial. Do you think it's none of the worlds business, only China? Rwandan Genocide mass murder of an estimated 850,000 people. Do you think because these people done horrible things to their own nations because they were being brain washed it's no body's business. There are so many astrocities, if every country defend what they think is right, and do whatever how do imagine this world would be?

"By George Bush making the decision to go to Afghanistan and Iraq, he effectivly sentenced Im guessing thousands of American troops to die, and thats just Americans". The truth is in every win, someone will fall. Soldiers knew their purposses. They said they are here to serve their counteries, after engaging in the army, choices they have notchosen, but giving. Not only american troops died in Afghanistan, but lots of european countries. I think why there were not masses of europeans there were because, what's for when america had more than enough. The media is to be blamed about how it represent soldiers in general. IT was horrible to see all over the tv how they showed the american soldiers as enemies to the afghanistans other than protectors. Even if a few soldiers were like that, why they put everyone feet in the same shoes.

THE United Nations is a powerful tool that can in of itself dictate what countries need immediate help through aid or military action, however this organization to has become too political and has lost its true purpose

^^^
AMEN

My post is going to be kind of random but it's the thoughts that entered my mind while reading other posts in this thread...

I read a book while I was backpacking in Vietnam. It's called "The Sorrow of War" by Bao Ninh. It is a fictitious rendition though there is speculation that the story is based on Bao Ninh's own experiences as a soldier in WWII. It expresses the reality of war; its horrors and futility. I recommend everyone read it to gain a better grasp of what war is in a personal and less distant manner.

I saw some of you mentioned Vietnam and I will tell you, based on my experiences of being there 1 year ago, the war has ripped the heart out of that country and it hasn't even begun to be mend itself.
While the U.S. reflects on Vietnam as a distant bloody memory taught in history books, the aftermath of the war remains on the doorsteps of their country. War bunkers, expired tanks, bullet shells, and war veterans (with missing limbs and burnt off faces) are strewn across the rural and urban areas alike.
I was treated like a celebrity while I was there and I have no doubts that for some of the people it was because they were scared of me; scared of making a bad impression on an American. I'll let you decide why that was...

War terrifies and confuses me. It's unnatural and horrific. Political, organized killing of strangers. What the hell kind of animals are we?

I live in a college town and I was at a party about a month ago when a group of soldiers in their early 20's showed up, not knowing anyone, but looking to have a good time on their weekend off duty.
They were part of the air force and I talked to one of the girls and one of the guys separately for some length. I had to feign support for the troops in order to suck out as much information as possible.

Anyway, what I discovered was what I expected, but nonetheless shocking. The guy was 26 and had joined the army at age 18. His explanation for joining was to fight terrorists and because he couldn't afford college. Since then, he had won many honors and moved up in rank so that he had quite a few people beneath his command. His morals were off the wall. He told me the girl he came with worked below him and they had slept together casually several times. He said she had slept with every soldier that they both knew. He talked about people in the Middle East as if they were game to be hunted and nothing more.
When I talked to the girl, all she was looking to do was party party party. She tried to convince me to join the airforce because "it's so much fun and you could get a free education afterward!" Also, "so many hot men!"
My point in sharing this information about these 2 soldiers is I think young people who become soldiers are not necessarily bad or immoral, but often times they join because they are lost souls (ignorant perhaps too) and need direction. GO ARMY. It's an ideal solution in so many ways...
Once joined, they feel part of a family, secured in a niche, and appreciated by their country. But war is no party and to cope with the crap these soldiers go through, they will often begin to think of the "other side" as less than human. It's no wonder videos and pictures like the one's Nana posted exist.

Humans are animals and animals are not mentally equipped to deal with genocide, mass killing, senseless slaughter, etc. Going into battle requires the brain to enter video game mode, thus distancing entirely from reality and right and wrong.

Not many people are cemented in who they are by the age of 18 when just graduating high school. They have yet to enter the real world and discover truths for themselves. It's a shaky, rocky period for most.
I do not think 18 year olds are mature enough to enter boot camp and the battlefield and not be warped by all the ignorance and falsities that float around about our involvement in the Middle East.

I honestly don't even know why we're over there. How do people justify it to themselves?

I believe that Obama intended to pull out after he entered Presidency, but I've succumbed to the understanding that it's not the President who runs our country. The President is a pawn to his political advisors, and his advisors are after individual gain.

I think Jane's thoughts on war are the ones I've seen that are most in line with my perception. War is a dehumanizer, a soul-killer, both of individuals and of whole societies. In America, we've never had that comprehensive understanding of war. We've had isolated attacks on our soil, but nothing like the drawn out siege of an inhabited country, that slow bleeding to death.

I think soldiers should be supported inasmuch as any human should be supported. I think they deserve the love than any decent person deserves. However, I don't think the army itself provides its soldiers that care and respect. It teaches them that they are cogs in a wheel, pawns on a gameboard, rungs in a command... NOT individuals with freedom. Like the "video game" concept that Jane brought up, I think the military does its soldiers the biggest dis-service, by cheapening life in themselves and in "the enemy." Furthermore, I think the military disrespects its body of soldiers by being disingenuous. I've heard so often that people join the army "to protect the freedom of those at home." Which, of course, is an honourable position... the only problem is that I think the military and the government capitalize on that purity of desire. They take a soldier's love of freedom, and use it to their own ends. If we weren't waging war in several middle eastern countries (not even specifically at terrorist groups, but whole systems as well) would it make a difference over here? Conquest of America would be nearly impossible. My freedoms feel much more threatened by the constrains of American society than they do by an Iraqi terrorist.

That said, I think there are a couple of situations in which retroactive war is more desirable than doing nothing. One example would be to step in and try to stop genocide, like we did in WWII, and which we're NOT doing in places like the Sudan, currently. The other situation would be to fight to protect an attempted invasion of our country, which is not currently happening (except in reverse).

Now, I know there are animals that routinely massacre opposing clans (baboons, for example, wage full scale battles against other baboon troops) but no other creatures (besides viruses, maybe) do it with the cleverness and thoroughness of humanity. And no other creature is so proud of it, either. I think we can do better.

John Paul Merton was Thomas Merton's younger, and only, sibling. While on leave in England, he met Margaret May Evans and married her in February of 1943. On April 16, 1943, he embarked in a Wellington bomber over the English Channel. For unknown reasons, the plane lost altitude and crashed. John Paul's back was broken, but he was taken aboard a dinghy with some survivors. He died the 17th, which was the Saturday of Passion Week. The others were rescued Holy Thursday, and Thomas Merton learned of his brother's death on Easter Tuesday. Thomas Merton responded with the poem, "For My Brother Reported Missing in Action, 1943", which concludes the The Seven Storey Mountain.
It seems that most of my poetic mentors were pacifist such as Thomas Merton, Khalil Gibran ,Bob Dylan , Joan Baez Dorothy Day reflecting Cat Stevens' " Peace Train" and many others who I believe had a great respect and love of soldiers.
When Desert Storm began the contemplatives at the Abby where Merton lived at one time just happened to be feature in a local documentary . Most of them got the feeling that it was more about crude oil tan any holy anointing. War affects the heart soul and mind of all who dwell on the causes and justification , but again I would like to express my love and gratitude for those who would stand between me and any supposed enemy while I pray for peace

I did not read Sibs and Mikes post..but
regarding this

President who runs our country. The President is a pawn to his political advisors, and his advisors are after individual gain.

^^^
I bet !!

Kahlil Gibran and soldiers ?
there is a misconception there!

Awesome posts here, hippies.

"Kahlil Gibran and soldiers ?

there is a misconception there!"
Perhaps, but it would be a larger misconception to say Gibran was judgmental to the cause rather than say he assesses the abuses of a just cause

It was not my intention to give the impression that he condones or praises any violence
It is ironical that he died in New York don't you think?

"Oh, Bravery, this is your sword, buried now in the earth !
Oh, Love, these are your flowers, scorched by fire !
Oh, Lord Jesus this is Thy Cross, submerged in the obscurity of the night ! "

I doubt that the truth will change any minds here but it's nice to see it brought forth once in a while.

^^^
I have to agree here, since even when people see by their own eyes the crap that is happening to other people, they still don't understand that there are certain things that are not right.

Billy rob i am sure you did not have the urge to kill humans, but regarding the points that me and some others talked about, I think it was pretty obvious how fighting for your country doesn't happen the way it's going on these days.

You can disagree with me, i am not from Iraq nor Palestine, and whenever i see the pics and watch the videos that I LINKED for anyone who is interested to see, I feel sick. And you can't make no body believe this is the art of war ! Fighting for your country in ANOTHER country by raping and killing, not like I am talking about a rare action, I am talking about stuff that's happening each single moment in these countries.

but who dares to admit the truth, anyway.
We cry for 4 soldiers and forget the 4 million killed by us.

Billy Rob let me be direct ok?

no the Arab leaders don't fear the Iranians dear, the Arab leaders most of them SEEK money, and personal gains..
Iran is not ruling lebanon LOL I live in lebanon, and if you mean Hizbolah, then if it wasn't for Hizbolah ..Lebanon would have been destroyed Jully 2006.

Media shows that Hizbolah is a certaiin spoookkyy organization, but only WE who see who are they, only we who live in this country know that .

They are people billy rob, not Syrian nor Iranian they are Lebanese people who never attack, but only defend LEBANON when Attacked.

USA or France, or Britain actually alwaysssss supported Israel, even when you lost your soldiers here and I am "sorry for your loss", but
the mission was not in it's place, and what you was told you are doing here, was not true. Beirut was being bombed by the battleship USS New Jersey,not what you said..or thought. .. And by the other part of the camps

The Marines/US {soldiers and forces} etc. were hitting LEBANESE houses, Lebanese people..children women..men..and properties, that is not supporting the Lebanese Army, they lied to you when they sent you there..along with the other 14.000 american/frensh/british soldiers... it was literately an invasion

And saying that the US forces were at Lebanon to support the Lebanese is as SAME as saying that the US forces invaded Iraq for the sake of IraqI freedom, the freedom that I showed you links and videos about.!!!
NOT TRUE
PS Back during the civil war, South Lebanon was occupied by Israel; WELL who was supporting Israel ? USa and France by weapons , power and money.
__explains ALL.

However why do you think all this fuss about Iranians..is taking place ?
Because they are creating weapons, well who will support Lebanon when Israel attacks it ? or the other eastern countries . Knowing that USA supports ISreal by weapons .

or is it like no one's allowed to make weapons or have it , if it wasn't USA..or
any of these big Western Countries.
They have the right to invent, just like USA has the riight to
I am not saying it is FINE, but when other countries tend to be supported by weapons, then the other strong countries will want to do the same to feel safe.

and regarding this :

I only say to you that many of your leaders say one

thing to you and another to us behind closed doors.

^^^
LOL these leader are the pro American Leaders ;) and
YES but that suits the American and Israeli Governments, and strategies .

They buy these leaders yes BUY them.
For example the govs saw how the lebanese
people protested for over a month in the streets of Beirut to get rid of "these leaders" back in 2006.
No body listened, and the leaders did not listen or feel ashamed because they had the Support
from the other big countries.

It doesn't suit anyone if the lebanese people lived with civil peace and love,
because then, they will have no reason to stick their noses in here.

And trust me there are books older than you can imagine, without history being rewritten..
books OLDER than 1975( date when Civil war started ) and books older than 1982 and I guess you know
what does that date represent.

However if you are to be sure about something, then it's Iran and Lebanon and their relation, we are
not being ruled by Iran over here and Hizbolah..
Hizbolaah I REPEAT defeated ISREAL it self in 30 days JULLY 2006, when they attacked lebanon!
IRan only gave them weapons and money, because ISREAL was being supported by the other countries
(whether it's admitted or not) and guess what ? the arab leaders were only watching.

So don't talk to us about the fake leaders, they are SOLD..long ago..along with their conscious, and that's why Eastern countries suffer. And if Iran by supporting lebanon is considered as manipulating it, then GOD be with the sane in this world.

I dont believe what i want to believe, you cant represent the whole world. my mom was there too, our grand parents, those who died and those who survived. i believe what makes sense, i believe history and proofs which alas i have. and we will always agree to disagree. Because it seems there is a misconception regarding the definition of peace and freedom.

Edited :
cause I posted from phone; however I was only speaking my mind which was a matter of a truth, back then I lost no one so no personal harm was done, except for war of Jully 2006 when I lost some of my friends.
I was only speaking facts, perhaps that's why you thought it was sharp.
so ya (: not such a deal.