Children with Down's syndrom, your views please

Today I got the news that Dutch scientists have found a way to detect Down's syndrome through a simple blood test. They take the blood from the arm of the mother in the 10th week of the pregnancy( at the earliest) and then they know for 98% sure if the child has Down's. They hope to make the test 100% accurate before the end of this year.

The questions I have for you are simple:

- Would you want to know in advance if you are carrying a handicapped child?
-Would you consider abortion if it turned out you were indeed carrying a child like that?
-How do you feel about these scientists, that help us, yet, to a certain degree also play God and, in the long term, will determine what KIND of people will roam this earth...if we play along.

I think I would want to know in advance, I think like Britt part of me thinks no because of fear, but it would help in preparation, which leads to the 2nd question, no I would not abort.

"How do you feel about these scientists, that help us, yet, to a certain degree also play God and, in the long term, will determine what KIND of people will roam this earth...if we play along."

The key phrase is "if we play along" People will go as far as we allow.

- Would you want to know in advance if you are carrying a handicapped child?

I think if knowing beforehand could prepare me for such a journey then it would/should be welcomed. Unfortunately not all handicaps can be detected prior to birth. Some handicaps occur during delivery as well.

-Would you consider abortion if it turned out you were indeed carrying a child like that?

I personally would never terminate a pregnancy based on those grounds or any other. I think that is just personal beliefs and others believe in it and that is their choice. I, myself, couldn't live with that decision.

-How do you feel about these scientists, that help us, yet, to a certain degree also play God and, in the long term, will determine what KIND of people will roam this earth...if we play along.

I also believe those same scientist have lengthened our life expectancy with tests. It wasn't so many years ago they in fact did not have immunizations for things I have either had or witnessed other children/adults having, like chicken pox and polio. When they started coming out with a chicken pox vaccinne I was ecstatic for my children. Though, I also don't think they should play God and decide if someone lives or dies based on their research. I have a niece that is "total care", she is 13 years old, looks like she is 6 heighth wise and weight wise declining rapidly every day. I am afraid that she may not be around for her birthday in June. She was not expected to live past 3 years old at most. They still haven't quite figured out what exactly the diagnosis is, one says it's LGS-Lennox-Gastaut Syndrome, along with some other things like sever mental handicap, and other forms of autism. She does not talk, just within the last 3 years learned to walk, has only said "momma" maybe twice in her life and we are not really sure if she said it then or if that was just a sound that resembled it. She knaws her shirt constantly to the point of holes in them, they are wanting to put her on a feeding tube because of the tremendous weight loss but first must do a test to see if it is because of a medical condition or neurological reason she is not eating. My point to adding all of this is if the mother had known beforehand that her child was like this, would she have done it any differently? No, she wouldn't have, how do I know you ask? Because, that is the type of dedicated mother I see in her every day. I don't like the father much, but have to give him credit that he has been there and not walked out a long time ago which it would have been very easy to do for some.

I agree Anna, I worked with handicapped kids throughout school, my uncle also worked with them when I was growing up and I have a few friends who have children with Down's, they are all amazing people.

I don't think it's a good thing to knowingly bring a child into the world that will never be able to live an independant life, if you could easily avoid it.

I'm not going to get into an abortion debate, because that is a no brainer, and if you think it's a serious issue you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

It's true that peeps with Downs tend to be super happy and amazing fun to be around, but they do needs heaps of support, they are generally discouraged from having children and tend to die very young.

This doesn't mean they can't have a decent life, I know the adults I work with do, but they won't ever have a full life, or the chances and freedoms most of us take as signs of a good life.

Personally, I think it's a bit irresponsible to knowingly have a baby that will be disabled or have severe learning impairments, when you could stop it.

This topic has been discussed before and my views have not changed. Unless you have been placed in the situation yourself its easy to take the moral high ground

When my unborn son was in his mothers womb we were told there was a chance he had Downs. We decided to have an Amniocentesis to determine whether he did or didn't. We were lucky he didn't. Prior to finding out we had discussed whether we would abort if he was. We both agreed we would

Why... I will be clinical here and number our reasons
1) We already had a daughter with a hearing disability, another one would have meant less quality time devoted to both.
2) We both worked, another child with a disability would have meant full time care for both. We could not afford that at that time.
3) Id lived opposite a family with Downs i witnessed first hand the stress it placed upon that family. And although they all loved little Annie the strain was very evident and when Annie died the mother was emotionally and physically worn out, she had spent so much time looking after her she had little left for the rest of the family
4) If we had to abort we would have tried for another child, one that would never have been born had we decided not to abort, that in itself is an important point.
5) We also don' t believe the foetus ia aware at that age within the womb.

I think references to Hitler and Starlin are unhelpful

- Would you want to know in advance if you are carrying a handicapped child?
I would want to know. Learning your child has a handicap like that out of the blue... On top of the stress of just having had a kid... How awful would that be? If I knew in advance, I'd at least have a chance to grow accustomed to the idea, and probably buy a few books and learn about what I was dealing with.

-Would you consider abortion if it turned out you were indeed carrying a child like that?
In the past, yes, definitely. But after having worked one on one with orphaned DS kids, all I can think of are their smiling faces, and I can't imagine destroying that for anything.

-How do you feel about these scientists, that help us, yet, to a certain degree also play God and, in the long term, will determine what KIND of people will roam this earth...if we play along.
I think it's great that they can give us so much information. I don't believe specifically in a god, so I think that if people have more control over their children's health, that's a good thing. However, at some point you have to draw the line. Science, when dealing with new life, should not be allowed to focus on the "futuristic" superficial or bio engineering of the perfect child. That's not only invasive to the child's individuality, it's creepy, and it's an obscene overstepping of parental rights.

Im not that averse to futuristic if we can become smarter way way way smarter someone may figure how to get off this planet and go somewhere else because sometime in the future this place will cease to exist and thats a fact...

it'd be nice to know that we have some chance of surviving as a species other than a blip on a seismograph

I would want to know ahead of time to prepare and educate so my child as the best I can offer....but it is awful 80% of Downsyndrome babies are being aborted because the mothers know ahead of time- yes it is true they require extra attention, education, different visuals, but they are the same human being. WE cannot stand for this choice to exterminate the disabled!

I have no idea what I would do in this situation. I'd have to be in it.

If in a stable home with a family and a decent income, I might be interested in having the test done so that I can prepare for whatever child I'm bringing into the world. In said situation, I would likely opt to have a baby with down syndrome and not abort. It seems unappealing now, but parents with DS kids are always talking about how rewarding the experience is, never about "regrets."

If I were to get pregnant now, I would have a very early term abortion and not even bother getting the DS test done. I try to be safe and if I have doubts, I take a pregnancy test (I've never had a positive result).

This is a difficult and touchy subject and I feel most people have no idea what they would do unless actually pregnant/submersed in the situation.

My feeling about scientists playing God is uncertain. I don't really believe in God, so the meaning is lost on me. We are humans and we do human things, which seems to advance technologically every day.
As Anna said, just because we CAN do something, doesn't mean we SHOULD. That can work both ways in this discussion.

Yet 75% die before they are born..what dose this tell us about nature...

75% die before they are born... naturally? Dang that's a lot!

Wow, I am really happy with all the reactions.

What Nicko said is true: the body of the pregnant mother tends to undergo a spontaneous abortion when the child is not healthy enough to survive.

I did not state my own opinion earlier, because I didn't want to influence yours.

I feel that one the one hand it is great that progress is being made and we are able to determine so many things beforehand, but on the other hand it frightens me. What if, at some point in time, parents are denied, say health care, because the KNOWINGLY have a child with serious health issues(of whatever kind, not necessarily Down's)What if we have a choice, but the "wrong"one has serious consequences?

By playing God I meant to say: to be able to control people, because you have more knowledge than them.

I could not undergo an abortion ever, I know deep within me that a child is aware of whom he is the moment he enters the womb and even believe the decision is deliberate to go to the parents of his choosing..so to terminate his life is something I could never do. It goes against all I am.

I have one Chinese girlfriend. In her country people are only allowed one child. Many baby-girls are slaughtered there, because they all want a boy. Kind of crazy when you think of it, because they will need a woman also to produce babies. I suspect Chinese authorities to be the first to want to access the Dutch blood test....

Billy Rob, that was probably the daftest use of hitler and stalin I've seen since someone who is in the penalty box right now, tried to use them to justify the evils of athiesm.

Ingrid, I cringe when people say "we shouldn't play God". Who decides on laws and moral truths? Is it God or is it humanity? Who advances science and improves social policies? God or humanity?

You have it the wrong way around sister. We shouldn't pretend our Gods are good enough to play human.

They aren't, we decide everything, thank God.

I firmly believe, the rights of an unborn baby lie completely with the Mother, and to a lesser extent the father. Their made the life, they will have to pay and care and work their arses off to support it for 16-20 odd years. It's hard enough to do that with a full healthy normal child. Can anyone in here really be critical of a parent who, having taken a test whilst the fetus is still tiny (at 10 weeks it's the size of a strawberry), and discovered there are serious complications, then decides it's not a good idea.

None of you have the right to be critical of that choice, except in some armchair activist sense. Sitting at your computer screens logged into P and Q with a marker pen and a blank protest sign, just waiting for get up in arms about something.

It is not so much about judging others, Kevin...I do not judge anyone who wants to abort a child, for whatever reason they may have. It would kill me, personally, if I would do it, because of the way I think about things.

This is still in the early stages, but maybe one day our choice may not be so free, there may be a gentle push towards certain options,due to the fact this world is overpopulated already and we have a growning group of senior citizens that do not bring in money( in general) but do use health care facilities etc. "playing God" is a figurative speech, in case you did not catch on to that. We are rapidly losing our freedom due to the advancing technology,in all fields, privacy being a major one of them by the way!

How do you post your messages on here, if not from behind a screen and through typing*grins*

And DANG! now why are we related? I did not know, it rules out certain options, ha ha ha! (jk)

I hope people do get restrictions on how many kids they can have, the sooner the better. And yes, if that means that parents won't be allowed, after having tests done to bring children into this world who have severe physical or mental impairments, I'd support that.

It's harsh, and part of me cringes, but it really would be for the best, overall. I work with a house full of adults whose parents had to give them up for care, because they couldn't handle the pressure, the constant work and the sure knowledge they'd never be relieved of looking after their child, because...they'd always be a child, even at 60 years old. That isn't fair, it's not fair on the parent and it's not fair to create a life you know won't be healthy and able to live free.

related? Huh? You're too pretty to be related to me, I'm fugly.

Kevin, I really do hope that you aren't expecting your children/future children to care for you someday when you're old and not as independent or healthy. You should have a back up plan.

Any child, no matter how far from perfect he/she is, has a great chance of having a great life if they were loved, taken care of and given the chance. I think we've all seen people with physical and mental disabilities who were an inspiration to us all and did and achieved more than anyone thought they would. actually, at times, even more than their ''able'' colleagues did. Just because a child has some sort of disability that doesn't mean they don't have equal gifts, talents or as much a role and reason to be here than any of us do.

One of my fathers best friends has a girl with down's syndrome, she's one year older than me, she's cheerful, loyal, sensitive and smart. she can read and write fairly, she goes to school, she loves movies and music and games and she brings joy into the heart of every person she meets. she's NOT suffering, far from it. she loves life even more than I do at times.

This thread made me wonder what would those who are for aborting a baby because it's not perfect or ''normal'' would do if they had one very healthy baby and then something, god forbid of course, happened and the child was physically or mentally impaired. you'd put them, like dogs, to sleep to cease their suffering? (or more like your suffering).

and here I thought we are supposed to protect those weaker than us and their rights. Not wipe them out.

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For those interested, do take a chance to look at this:

http://www.jacobhalpin.com/

http://www.ds-int.org/news/899
http://www.karengaffneyfoundation.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/arts/design/19kate.html
http://creativegrowth.org/gallery/judith-scott/

http://www.chattanoogadownsyndrome.org/home/johnny_stallings

Hellon, I'd suggest you do a bit of reading about how over populated this planet is and how much of a negative effect that is having on everything. Once you understand even the basics of this idea, you might consider that limiting population in a fair and controlled way might actually allow future generations to have a chance of a better life.

Or, you could just have a gut reaction and keep posting without being informed.

A very good topic Ingrid. Well we are all free to say what we want, but from what Kevin says caught my attention. First, well not only you are a man, but you think like a man too( a large majority) I think when it comes on situation like this, no woman should let any man decide for her. Of course he can support her but i think woman are the actors and victims at the same time. It's easy for men to say they want "normal" children, but looking at the society today, sometimes even the so called "normal' children sometimes gives the biggest problems. Life is filled with surprises. Also Kevin, do you know or heard of pregnancies where women were told that their might be an abnormality, and at birth the child is 'normal'. I believe that today in 2011, women should take their responsiblities and not fall for just ANY man, but one who is ready to stand by her side in any situation and believe that a child is not an object chosen by preference but a mysterious gift. I do have a friend who had a twin son with autism, and i heard him say the same thing, that if he had known they would be disabled, he would have done something. THank goodness he's not the almighty and secondly who knows how it feels other than a mother? A man can only imagine how it would be or how it is, but women feels it.
By the way, today is said to be ' women's day here. Happy Women's day to all ladies ...)

^^
My sister was saying the same thing. That guys would be more practical than emotional on this to the extent of being offensive (to some women).

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as to over population, I think if the people are productive enough, there won't be a problem. but when numbers grow while resources stay the same the problem arises. Here in Egypt for example, we live on only 3% of the whole land and then they whine about over population. Makes me want to pull my hair out. but hopefully with Farouq el Bazz's project that would be solved in the future. hopefully.

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Happy women's day!

@hellon - I'd love to hear your info on over population then, if you have some evidence it isn't a huge world breaking issue that could be massively impacted by controlling birth rates. Or you can just keep being silly and trying to make me look silly. I'd prefer you back up your response with some info.

Read this, it's just a wiki link but it's backed up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation

@ Kelleyana- I didn't even hint a man should decide for a woman, not sure where you got that. I clearly said it's a woman's choices, but the father should have some imput.

@ Billy Rob - you're just being rediculous. Hitler's ideals were not based on over population, of quality of life, he was talking about racial purity and the sanctity of German blood. Two different things.

So many contributions, so happy to see you all wanting to share your thoughts:)

Kevin, you are not fugly!

Have you all heard of Maslov's hierarchy of needs? It is a pyramid, you can see an explanation here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

These scientists fulfill a need in societies where basically all levels are met by the majority of the people in it. Rich societies have the means to take care of children that are born and will never be able to provide for themselves. Still, parents have this need to know in advance and feel it is their privilege to make a choice to have that kind of child or not.( this does not make it morally right) In the poor countries people have no way of being able to control the outcome, sometimes not even have money to use any kind of birth control. In those countries handicapped are sometimes kept as animals, in far away homes, tied to bed posts, rolling around in their own dirt..I have seen documentaries of such homes in countries like Romania that will haunt me forever.In China the baby girls are sold( "adoption") or thrown in wells, etc. Not all girls, and less than in the past, but still most Chinese people want a boy, to carry on the family name and these boys are spoiled silly, I know that for a fact.

In my country I know people who have handicapped children and their biggest grief comes from knowing they have to leave a child behind that cannot take care of themselves. I know of one woman that lives in an "apartment", in her parents house, that they made for her, and those parents know she will have nothing left, when they die and it kills them.

Scientist do research because a. they can b. they earn their money/ recognition that way c. people want to know these things ( otherwise this would not be subject to investigation)

In this modern world we only spend time and effort on things that are of value in one way or the other....if it is ethical, is sometimes a completely different discussion.

Sorry kevin but i quote "I don't think it's a good thing to knowingly bring a child into the world that will never be able to live an independant life, if you could easily avoid it".

"Easily avoid it", you mean abort it and then all the problems will be over. Of course it will be over for you, but what about the woman, it's her body and mind. If you read between the lines you'd see that this is what i am talking about.

"I'm not going to get into an abortion debate, because that is a no brainer, and if you think it's a serious issue you need to wake up and smell the coffee". Secondly, here you definatly means that birth should be selective and any that is not normal should be abort. Of course i respect your choice, but what about certain abnormalities that accur after 3 years old? My goodness kevin, imagine we select normal live births and when our child reach the age of three we learn that He/she sufffer an handicap, what would we do? Oh no is it too late to abort it...)

Today I received an article in my daily newsletter that I want to share with you all. It is about one possible cause of premature child birth (as it is related to the topic of this thread):
http://www.aerzteblatt.de/v4/archiv/pdf.asp?id=80767

There is a cure for what is described here an dit is so simple it will make you laugh: coconut oil. This oil consists of Lauric Acid for about 50% (this is one of the main ingredients in mother's milk and it kills most germs and virusses)

Here is a helpful link for those who would like to read more:

http://www.organicfacts.net/organic-oils/organic-coconut-oil/health-benefits-of-coconut-oil.html

Kelleyana, yes I did say all those things, but what I didn't say, and what you originally accused me of, was taking away womens rights and letting the man decide about abortion.

I never said that, never even hinted at it. I said very clearly, the parents will have the responsibility, they will have the burden and it's their child so it's their choice, end of story. If you can quote me saying anything about women having less rights and men making the call, please do.

@hellon, I'm betting you didn't read that link did you? No, you didn't, you're happy to just make this petty and personal, ignore facts and research. Pity.

Is this a religious issue for some of you? I'm sensing some....zeal coming off a few posts that sounds very righteous, but not in a personal way, like you'd perhaps get from someone who'd had an abortion forced on them...

It's important to remember I work with adults who have various learning difficulties, so I think I have more experience of these issues, than most of you, if not all of you. You might know someone who has downs, you might see them at parties etc and think their life is peaches, but you don't see the flipside, very few people do and you certainly don't know jackshit about the massive issues and stress and work that goes along with their lives.

I love the people I work with, they are all amazing, but their families had to give them up, some of their families were broken apart, violently because of the strain of trying to raise a child with impairments.

I would never suggest fully born children be culled if they develope issues, don't absurd. Jesus, some of you are taking this way too far.

I'm talking about making a choice, in the very early stages of pregnancy.

Get a grip.

Okay, I will weigh in here and trust me it is not easy.

As many of you know I have a 16 year old son that is disabled. He is diagnosed with a combination of bi-polar and schizophrenic. What you do not know is I also have a son with aspergers who functions normally and is now serving in the military.

Another thing that you do not know is that my 16 year old is in the hospital where he has spent the last year of his life and every week we have therapy together. He is unable to return home due to his violent actions. It tears me apart and to know that he will have to live in a facility for the rest of his life is a constant weight on my shoulders.

I do not love him any less. He is my son. I had the option to abort him due to health reasons and chose to carry him despite the fact that the pregnancy could have killed me.

Was my decision based on religion? Partly, and also because I had already lost one child and it devastated me. I do not regret giving birth to my son and I always look forward to those genuine moments where we are together and just hanging out.

I do understand Kevin's point of view, but I choose to be an optimist and look at the glass as half full instead of half empty. I believe that there is a purpose for my son being here and I hold on to that belief.

I love all four of my children the same and hold no regrets to have them. Disabilities or not they are my children.. my flesh and blood.. they are a part of me that I will always cherish and continue to be proud of.

I do not like the fact that science is stepping in on such a major scale. I fear that we as a human race are looking for that perfect being and soon we will start to alter DNA to manipulate the human species as we know it today.

From threads like these you learn so much about other members and also their view on life. It somehow changes you, when you really try and feel how the other sees things.

Kevin, don't get upset. Your opinion is as valid and meaningful as all others and I have no doubt in my mind there are millions who see it it the way you do. I think maybe Kelleyana misunderstood what you meant exactly. I think it's great how you devote your life to helping those who have such a hard time surviving, hats off to you:) *hugs*

Hats off also to all who open up their hearts and mind in this thread..this is so much more meaningful and inviting to read( also for those who may be watching us for the very first time and deciding whether they want to join or not!)

This is about choice of an unborn foetus not a Downs child that is already born and thats the difference here, unless we all jump in and talk about abortion, a separate topic but for some intricately linked. I have a child with a disability and I would give my life for her. So some may find it difficult to comprehend my views on this topic.

One reason for that is at 12 weeks a foetus does not have consciousness, in fact most children don't have childhood memories till after they are 5 years old, Its almost a defensive mechanism

Aborting a Downs foetus gives the parents the ability to have another child that would otherwise never been born an opportunity for life is that so bad. Yet if we had given birth to a Downs child we would have loved it with all our hearts. Its all about choice and till you have to look that decision in the eye and the implications it entails, you just, just might think differently. Life is never as black and white as many may think

And Billy equating the parents decision whether to abort their and I mean their with a "t h e i r" own foetus cannot be equated to Hitler's grand plan of forced labour camps, mass murder, medical experiments on the living, etc etc sorry I will not be held accountable as a mass murderer for the sake of expediency

I'm not getting mad Ingrid, just direct and blunt, because it seems when I speak rather, openly and assume people get my drift, many don't and I have to then make another post stating the obvious, IE, I'm not a Nazi and I don't support killing babies years after thay are born if they develope problems.

: )

Nicko, as always gets exactly the real crux of the matter. I'm not advocating the forced killing of any fetus that isn't perfect, I'm advocating that it's ok for the parents to make that choice, if they get a test that shows there will be serious issues.

But then, i'm pro choice with abortion even without complications, but the added knowledge of some impairment just makes it more clearcut.

Nicko made a great point. If a couple took a test, discovered early in the pregnancy there would be serious issues, had an abortion and then concieved another child soon after, which was tested and found to be fine, there is a life created, that wouldn't have been possible if the first child was carried to term..but the second child will have a much better start in life.

I'm not getting mad Ingrid, just direct and blunt, because it seems when I speak rather, openly and assume people get my drift, many don't and I have to then make another post stating the obvious, IE, I'm not a Nazi and I don't support killing babies years after thay are born if they develope problems.

^^

the thing with the net is, that people often do and get upset over nothing. I am glad you took the time to explain what you meant.

I can understand when a person could find a handicapped child too hard to cope with..but sometimes these things just happen or a child/ spouse develops an illness and then you have to find a way to deal with it, no matter how hard that may be. Life is a test, one huge test.

My own child was brought into this world with an Apgar score on 1 on a scale of 10 and they said he would not live to see the next day. He did..he was ill for the biggest part of his first 14 years. I NEVER gave up on him, sat at his bed to do his homework with him and supported him any way I could. No one believed in him, not even his own father, but I did. He is now in his third year of university and he runs marathons. I strongly believe many, many things in life are possible, as long as you believe....

I want to elaborate on the Apgar Scale for anyone who doesn't know what it is because I just learned about it in my Lifespan class :)

Appearance
Pulse
Grimace
Activity
Respiration

In each of these 5 tests, a newborn infant can receive 0-2 points with 10 being the maximum (most desirable) points for the overall test.

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Ingrid, your child received a 1? Which category received the point if you don't mind me asking?

This happened 21 years ago. I was told he had 1 point on the scale. I was not informed about the exact meaning of this scale and didn't really care no know, because I, myself was also near death, due to the delivery, that lasted 4 days. He was very near death when he finally came out of the womb, so I think he may have had a 1 on all tests.

I am only talking about ending pregnancy in the very, very early stages of conception, after proper tests.

In no way do I support anything else, like babies being killed after birth if they have serious problems.

No one in his right mind would suspect you to support such activities, Kevin. You are much too kind and soft hearted.

BillyRob,

I have read your posts, which are rather disturbing, to say the least!

I don't think the comparison is really accurate. The world is overcrowded, lots of people struggle to get by financially, due to the media lots of stories are shared about how it is for people to have a child that is disabled in any way. We know more, we dare to stand up for what we want much more than we used to. This is not as black and white as you make it out to be..In general we are so much more aware of what goes on, and how choices affect our lives. A few generations ago, you had children for as long as you were fertile, no pill, no nothing and lots of families lived on the verge of starvation..my parents did when they were young, they both come from very large families. I am happy that we do have choices nowadays..just worried what happens if the choices become less of a free option, but we are gently pushed towards one. I think we need to keep focused and let our voice be heard every time something new is being presented. We have freedom of speech..so we should use it to our own advantage.

I didn't see Billy Rob as disturbing at all. Actually it was parts of Kevin's posts that were a bit disturbing to me (to each their own I guess) like this:

''I hope people do get restrictions on how many kids they can have, the sooner the better. And yes, if that means that parents won't be allowed, after having tests done to bring children into this world who have severe physical or mental impairments, I'd support that.''

So I can see where Billy is coming from.

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I agree with Amanda that it's after all the parents choice as well although I think that every child should be protected. so it's a tough choice. I don't think that another child would make up for the aborted one. Every child is special and unique in his/her own way, one would never make up for another.

Like it was said above, sometimes doctors say that the baby if born won't healthy however the child when born is found to be perfectly alright. Also some healthy children might need more attention and time and cause more trouble to their parents than any child with issues. Actually some of them perfect children end up not having a ''normal'' or ''quality'' life either. so you never know.

Anyway, lets hope that whatever the parents choice is they won't someday regret it and they'll be able to live with it.

I did not use the words rude or harsh at all, Rob. I was referring to you initial statement, where you compared modern science to the nazi regime...that made me jump up in my seat. The people used in Himmler's horrid experiments were all prisoners of war and in no way free to choose anything. We live in a "free"world now, free as in: as far as we do not invade other people's rights and follow all the rules the country we live in wants us to follow. To some that "freedom"is very small..like it is the case with people in China, for example, and yes, I am aware of all that goes on there, I have inside information.

And to Nor: the better informed a parent is, the easier it will be to make a choice, well..let's say, less difficult...some choices are heart breaking:(

I never wanted children, just like Kevin. I became pregnant in spite of using the pill. I was on an experimental light version. I was too young, about ten years younger than the average mum in my country, but I could have never said no to this child and I am glad I didn't. He is the joy of my life.

Glad he is the joy of your life Ingrid, I'm sure you're his.

Actually Ingrid I agree with Rob.

I believe his analogy of the situation is on key. In all fairness Hitler wanted "a pure race" and that is exactly the context taken on by aborting fetuses who are "not perfect in everyones eyes".

Regardless of if it were done to prisoners or not it does not matter. I know you stated you would never do it. But you asked for opinions and then you came back with that his posts were disturbing followed with an exclamation point. Which in itself reads as though you are absolutely disgusted that he could think of such a thing. I suppose mine and Robs views are a lot alike and it could be the fact that we were probably raised the same way. Yes, I suppose you could also say it does have something to do with religious beliefs. Regardless, my opinion Murder is Murder is Murder no matter how it is spelled out. That is just my opinion which may be a very small portion of this so called "free world" in which we live.

Edit
** I in no way mean this offensive to anyone, while I understand some of your views taken on this subject, it is not for me to judge.
Ingrid, I hope you do not take my post wrong that I was against you, as I was just trying to state that I think with the way you posted your response about Rob's post that you were trying to force our way of thinking and our personal moral values against us.

I was trying to avoid jumping in here but I might as well give my opinion since I can give it! ;] First off I would have to say that you all seem very engage in this topic from the post I have read I realize some people have some really neat opinions and also good examples.

Anyway, I think you should keep the child. Why should it matter if the child has down syndrom. Would you love the child anymore if it were "normal"? Seriously though, Aborting a child by itself is wrong and then trying to find an excuse to do it makes it even worse. I would never have my child aborted. Yes, I know it up to the female but she wouldn't be aborting my child.

As for these scientist, I think they need to back off in the realm of genetics at least for humans. Like some people have already said, scientist are getting close to making our race "perfect", altering eye color and traits. They also can change what sex your child is already. Very sad thought, that people wouldn't their child how it should be.

Anyway I know my comments are somewhat confusing but that is my opinion about this entire matter. :] Have a nice day and don't quote me! :]

As a matter of fact, I am Nor:) He has told me from the day he could talk to this day every single day that he loves me. When he was little I thought it was normal, but I almost never hear other parents say their grown up children do that. It is a little hard on me that he is never home anymore, he is either at uni or working or out with his friends..but then ever so grateful for the really beautiful life he is having:)

Kay,

I understand what you are saying and yes, I asked for opinions, but Billyrob is so outspoken, his words startled me. As I said, I also wonder where all this will lead. I am also afraid one day all people who are a "burden"will be "dealt with". I think we should talk, not only to each other, but to everyone we know and make a fist together and not allow ourselves to be pushed a certain way.

A few years ago( you will freeze when you read on) the "pill of Drion"was introduced in The Netherlands. When you follow a certain procedure, you can end your life when you are a senior citizen with this pill. Immediately it came to my mind that maybe one day we will be gently asked to take it...So that is why I feel we should all be connected around the world to talk this through.

And Jad, I think you are a kind soul to voluntaily take it upon you to care for another human being for as long as you will live, if it were to happen to you. Being a parent to a child with special needs is heavy in so many ways, but I know for a fact that children with Down syndrome are about the kindest souls in this universe..but this is for people who care about kindness, those who want a perfect child will care less about kindness and more about intelligence and beauty and the sex of the child.