Children with Down's syndrom, your views please

Thanks, Ingrid. :]

It is soo sad though that many parents would want to alter how their child would be. I would honestly want my child to be however God intended him/her to be. :] My view peeps! :]

"Personally, I think it's a bit irresponsible to knowingly have a baby that will be disabled or have severe learning impairments, when you could stop it."

Kevin could you please elaborate?"

I think I've already explained this, but once more around the block!

If two parents have a test done in the very early stages of pregnancy, and discover their child will have a really serious life changing and dibilitating impairment, such as blindness, or be wheelchair bound, for example, I think it's a bit irrisponsible to go through with the pregnancy.

It's true that many people learn to live with serious impairments, and have good lives, that is a fact, but I'm sure they would have preferred to have a normal healthy body which granted them full independance.

As Nicko said earlier, terminating a pregnancy in the early stages due to complications does mean a potential life is ended, but it also means you can try again, and another life which wouldn't have been created...is given the chance, hopefully with better health.

The only people I see who really hate this idea, tend to be devout religious people who believe abortion is Murder, no matter the reason.

That is their right, but it doesn't leave room for serious adult discussion.

"You insinuate that people of faith are inferior to you intellectually"

No, I didn't insinuate that, what I said and suggested was, it's very hard to have a serious discussion about the ethics of abortion with someone who is devoutly religious. For them to see another point of view, they'd have to go against their faiths doctrines about the subject.

I've never met anyone who has been able to do that. They have, to put it simply, a very strong pressure on them to hold to one strict way of thinking about being for or against pro choice.

Someone like me however, is totally free to decide on that issue myself, based on experience and logic.

If you add to this, the idea that abortion is wrong because of anything said in the Bible, or by the Pope, it becomes even harder to have a serious discussion. The Pope is a sinister virgin who shields child molesters, and the Bible is a rehashed myth story of questionable facts. Why the hell would I want either of those things factoring into an adult debate?

Before I committed the alleged offence I went to church and listened to the preacher talk about the difference between a choice and a decision.
After it was explained to me it seemed simple enough. Since then my Lord has led me a journey to try and find the main difference between discussing and arguing. There is nothing wrong with being placed in a box , but some of the more successful people in history have thought outside of the box. Is it a choice or a decision who deserves success and do we all somehow want to hold on to the delusion that life is fair? To quote a successful folk artist" and if my thought-dreams could be seen / they'd probably put my head in a guillotine." If this offends anyone that is happy being placed in a box I do apologize. "I may not agree with what you Say but I will defend to the death your right to say it". I had better be careful that is offensive to any who has suffered due to the French revolution.

Kevin, I am not trying to get in a debate with you, perhaps I am not clear enough on the situation or subject. It just seems as though you are saying that those of us that believe otherwise are closeminded and that only the ones who are pro choice have logical reasoning. In my opinion my beliefs are my logical reasoning. It doesn't have to be "religious" so to speak, anyone could be religious about anything. I know you are referring to being religious in a spiritual realm. Though I understand Nickos point and respect that other people have their beliefs, their reasonings and their rights. I have no qualms with that. It is like comparing it to other religions in a sense, their beliefs versus mine. I am not trying to push my beliefs on someone else and hope they won't do that to me either. I am going to stick with what I believe and pray I never have to walk in someone elses shoes because in the end.... we are all human.

Ingrid don't tell me i misunderstood Kevin's point. With further explanation he said that he thinks during the first stage of pregnancy if there is an abnormality... Again that's the way he sees it. That is his point-a view and if that should be his partner also then fine, it's their life, but what i was saying is that life and the unknown can play tricks on us, and sometimes it is worth it to think very hard before making any decision because sometimes medical test can go wrong in some ways. Why live each day with regrets? Most women goes through a hard time after going through abortion, so i think none of us who are not in this situation can really understand. My belief is based on what i see around me and what I'd do personally. I know if i should be pregnant i'd never done any test to see if my child 'normal or not, other than the monthly test to see if everything ok and the baby's health as I did before for my son. I am not against Kevin's point-a view, but he uses the same quote used by my ex manager who tells me that if I had a baby I'd be fired because i will never be the anymore and again he repeats the same thing. "I'm not going to get into an abortion debate, because that is a no brainer, and if you think it's a serious issue you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Children with Down's syndrom, your views please
It is strange that terms like children and child must at times be legal terms
My sister has taught down syndrome children for over twenty years, and has observed that they are closer to nature than most. A famous blind person was once asked is there anything worse than losing your sight and this person response was yes, losing your vision. In spite of what many think of me I am not a fan of the term blind faith. It makes as much sense to me as, hateful love, or hopeful despair. I once rented a house to a man that received a disability check for being legally blind. He paid a great deal of attention to detail When Edgar Alan Poe was said to have married his thirteen year old cousin I can only assume that his peers considered her to be at the age of reason. Those who know anything about disabilities may also know that Albert Gore and Albert Einstein were thought to have suffered from a form of autism. When in doubt let your conscience guide you.

''One name.."Helen Keller"

Read about this lady that should have been aborted..''

Just one name? I can make an endless list.

Actually one of my professors is blind and he's married and with children and is a professor. (that's not a normal life for you?) One of the most famous music composers here is blind as well. Not to mention The dean of Arabic literature Taha Hussien, may he rest in peace, who was also blind and still achieved more than one normal ''seeing'' person would.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taha_Hussein

Plus I didn't see anyone mentioning any religious reasoning but more of a ''human'' one. so why get religion into this now and attack it? It's not an abortion issue but more of the idea of aborting BECAUSE the child to someone isn't ''normal''.

I would've understood Kevin's side if we were like 500 hundred years back where people couldn't deal with anyone who was different or with sort of disability. but now? when you see people on wheelchairs playing sports and people with disabilities and serious illness challenging it and winning over it? Now that we (supposedly)have enough knowledge, awareness, science and ways to give everyone a quality of life if we tried. I can't get the fact that some would think it's end of the world that someone is blind or on a wheelchair. scary. and you're kidding yourself if you think you're doing them a favor by aborting them, you're just thinking about yourself and that you can't, won't or wouldn't take care of your own flesh and blood just because he's not, to you, perfect enough.

We had here some author that wrote about people who live under the line of poor. They live here in big groups surrounding the city in houses that look near to collapsing (they've made them themselves out of stone, wood and straw) not to mention the conditions they live in since these places rarely have water, electricity or so. Anyway, his solution to this ''problem'' was to BURN these places down with the people in it and hence ''get rid'' of those who can not have a quality or decent life. he saw it as he's doing them and us both a huge favor. since ''poor them'' won't have to suffer like that anymore or their children. talk about disgusting, instead of trying to raise money for them, make programs and projects, finding someway to help them he's advocating ''getting rid'' of them, the easy way out, why cause yourself a headache, ha? to me that was an incitement to murder. I don't know how he got off the hook that easily.

I don't know what this world is coming to.

You are all taking my points and then running off on your own charming righteous protests, and that is ok, just don't cite me as the reason.

If you can't accept that really all I am arguing for is the rights of parents to make informed decisions about their lives, then that is ok, just try to not get up in arms.

Poor Kevin..everyone is on your case. I thought Kelleyana misunderstood part of your message, but maybe she didn't, I am not sure anymore.

anywaysssss, I am happy with all the input and Bob, be glad your wife did not do that test, it can cause spontanious abortion in some cases..I think that may be a one fo the reason scientist tried so hard to find another way to determine Down's syndrome. In my country mothers over 40 were strongly adviced to do that test with the needle (it was standard procedure, more or less)to rule out Down's and now they can without fear of spontanious abortion. Or not do any test at all, it is a matter of free will( and I hope it always will be)

If it is caused by something being done to the mother then it should not be classified as spontaneous abortion, (Like the amneocentis). If it happens as a natural occurence then it should be called a miscarriage. As someone who has had a miscarriage myself, I don't personally like the term spontaneous abortion. I know it is basically the same thing, but it just seems so emotionless.

I find that very deplorable as well, Bob.

"You popped the cork, Kevin, at least, share the grape..

Seriously, love you as a human and a fellow poet, but am having a problem with you running away from your statements..oh well..at least, you got our heartbeat up, huh?"

Running away from my statements? I don't see how. I stand by everything I've said 100%. If it looks like I'm backtracking, that is because you Billy rob, and others have taken what I've said, and gone North by northwest with it, so I've had to simplify the points defend myself.

You went so far wrong with my posts you offered a very gracious apology, now are you saying my defending myself from your over the top reactions is me running away?

Get a grip. If people would stay calm and not start mentioning Nazis and killing babies long after they are born, linking my name to both things..I'd not be on the defensive.

: )

Ps, before I worked with autistic adults, I used to work with kids (ages 8-18) who had serious physical impairments, I'm talking in hospital every other week, not able to breath without support and heavily medicated. I did that job for 4 years and loved it, and I was good at it.

Perhaps it would interest you to know, that the parents of one of the kids gave a talk about how hard her life had been raising her son (she eventually had to give him to us to care for full time, but for years she tried it alone which broke up her marriage and financially ruined her, almost).

She looked around the room at the end once she'd answered our questions and said;

"I can tell there is a quetion you want to ask, but are too polite to ask. Would you have had Duncan if you'd known how hard life would have been for him, and me?"

Everyone looked really uncomfortable, but anyone who is a care worker thinks about this, it's just natural.

"If I could have known in the early stages that he'd be severely impaired, I'm not sure if I could have had an abortion. 18 years ago we didn't have the options and knowledge we do now, so I really don't know, but I would have had the tests."

It was a powerful discussion and she is an amazing woman. Duncan died 1 year ago from an epileptic seizure that couldn't be stopped. He was 19 and his Mothers only Son. She said that she won't ever have another child.

Quote me where I said in this thread Billy ROb

"I wish the government would force parents to abort fetuses with handicaps"

Please, show me where I said that. I can smell another apology due from you, that is 3 times now you've totally misquoted me, and in a very negative way.

I did say that Billy, what I didn't say and what you made up a quote on was;

"I wish the government would force parents to abort fetuses with handicaps"

I'm kinda annoyed I have to post again to explain how wrong you are, but perhaps 3rd times the charm.

There is massive difference between my supporting the government limiting population growth (which would include any fetus, healthy or not) and my wanting the government to start killing off disabled babies. You can't seem to seperate the two ideas.

"and yes, if that means that parents won't be allowed, after having tests done to bring a child into the world that has severe physical impairments, I'd support that"

You do realize I didn't mean, I'd support the abortion BECAUSE they are disabled, I'd support it because it would be the same rule for everyone.

Our planet is dying, we're pissing away the natural resources of our world like warm beer at a frat party, and the big problem no one wants to talk about is we're having too many kids, they take up huge amounts of resources so we need to keep on drilling, cutting and farming the crap out of everything to meet the demand.

What is so wrong with 1 child per couple? Just for a few generations til we get things under control? No one is saying, don't have kids...just limit it.

Please don't make up quotes by me again or I will report you.

'' "and yes, if that means that parents won't be allowed, after having tests done to bring a child into the world that has severe physical impairments, I'd support that"

You do realize I didn't mean, I'd support the abortion BECAUSE they are disabled, I'd support it because it would be the same rule for everyone. ''

Then why put them in a group by themselves Kevin? why say that you'd support it even if parents weren't allowed to bring children ''with physical impairments'' instead of easily saying '' a second child''?

Actually why even have such tests since they wouldn't have a choice to bring in another child?

---

''I'm kinda annoyed I have to post again to explain how wrong you are, but perhaps 3rd times the charm.''

''Please don't make up quotes by me again or I will report you.''

This should be a ''please take a full responsibility of what you say'' instead. you asked Billy Rob to quote where you said or gave that impression and he did.
and if we all understood the same thing it's either two things, either you didn't write or express clearly what you meant or you're trying to get out of it now. (take your pick) either way, your fault.

oh, and I find your reply extremely rude.

"I wish the government would force parents to abort fetuses with handicaps"

You made up this quote. I never said this. So shame on you for resorting to lying to try to get a point across.

I stand by everything I've said, my conscience is clear and anyone who can read and comprehend moderately complex sentences can see what I'm actually saying, not what you over reactionaries "think" I'm saying.

Nicko gets it, Ingrid gets it. They might not agree, but they aren't yelling at me and making really silly teenage accusations.

Rock on.

I hope people do get restrictions on how many kids they can have, the sooner the better. And yes, if that means that parents won't be allowed, after having tests done to bring children into this world who have severe physical or mental impairments, I'd support that.

^^

This is the first part of the third post you made, Kevin. I think this is what Billyrob is referring to.

I feel you are both on opposite sides of the spectrum with this subject. I like you both very much and will not take sides in this matter. If both of you stand up for what you believe in and do it for the same reason: out of concern for the future of our children and children's children and the society as a whole, then maybe you could both respectfully agree to disagree and not do the thing where you count to ten and then turn around and shoot?...:)

I'm not ashamed of anything I've said Billy, I'll say it all again. You can quote me on anything I've said and I'll defend it.

Here is what you can't do, and in fact should get a moderator warning for doing.

You are not allowed to lie about things I've said, and make up quotes, especially really bad ones.

I never said that I wished the government would starting forcing abortions of handicaped fetuses, that is a lie, and anyone who can read can see that.

I won't keep explaining myself over and over. Just don't ever misquote me again and we're golden ok.

Hopefully that clears things up. I was confused whether Kevin said the quote or not and now that I know it was paraphrasing, it makes sense. Good of you to apologize, Billy, hopefully Kevin realizes you weren't lying about him.

Great discussion by the way, Ingrid.

That wasn't paraphrasing, lets call a spade a spade here.

He was twisting my words to suit his post. When you paraphrase, you actually say "I'm paraphrasing here but "insert half remember statement".

Given the post he goofed up was a few mouse scrolls away, was there any need to paraphrase?

Sorry to everyone else if I seem like I'm beating a dead point, but understand, he used that misquote as a jumping board to try and debate me.

LoL, the worst paraphrase I've ever seen used as a serious point against me.

Billy, I've meant every word I've said, how I said it. I have repeated myself plenty, and made everything simple. You don't have to like it, but I am not "saying one thing and meaning another" or...somehow, unsure what I really mean or think on this issue. I know exactly where I stand, and it's ok we don't agree.

Just don't misquote me, and then pretend you were just summing up my words roughly.

Thank you for the complement, Jane:)

I can understand why both Billyrob and Kevin are so fired up, but seeing as Billyrob has apologized over and over now and it is clear both men have the best interest for mankind at heart (just on opposite sides of the spectrum) it may be time to cool off?

I know for a fact you two are kind people, with a caring and gentle nature. That might not be so clear when you see the posts in here...let's just say you have gone out of your way to make clear what you feel within your heart and you both are right, in the sense that you both are allowed your own opinion on the matter and deserve to be respected for standing up for it ok? Let's be really grateful that we are all free to have our opinion..this is not the case in all places on this planet!

Billy, you said sorry for linking me to Nazis, you haven't yet said sorry for lying about my words and passing it off as "paraphrasing", which is what the Mods called it, not you.

ok, one more time for you.

"And yes, if that means that parents won't be allowed, after having tests done to bring children into this world who have severe physical or mental impairments, I'd support that."

I wrote this in reference to population control, not abortion of disabled fetuses specifically. Ill repeat that for you. I wasn't just supporting the abortion of impaired/ill fetuses...I was talking about any fetus born outside of the limits set down by population control.

I then added that paragraph you keep quoting to tie my points about population control in with this thread.

I was saying, in much simpler terms.

I support population control for everyone, and if that means a couple have one baby (lets imagine the laws are one per couple) and then get pregnant again, and have standard tests to discover the baby is impaired...yes, I'd support abortion even for an impaired child, but only in the context of population control.

Do you get it now? I don't think there should be special abortion rules for impaired fetuses..I don't think parents should be pressured into aborting impaired fetuses. I'm just pro choice and against pressure from the right wing religious nuts who consider it flat out murder.

I hope this clears things up, cause this is the 4th time I've had to reword my very clear first post for you.

Wew, a 100 posts already!

I thank you all so much for contributing to this topic. So many different views have been added. Some people are parent, some aren't or are yet to become one..For me this subject became a totally different ball game when I became a mother. Receiving a child is such a miracle and it humbles you. From that point on you learn to put the centre focus outside of yourself and to put another human's need before that of yourself.

I hope we will always be free to make our own choices, and always have the respect to allow others to make theirs.

:)

The decision to abort a child can also be the choice of both the mother and the father, Bob...Also: when it is about a young girl who has been a victim of rape or incest..there are many things to consider.

And Conny: it is not clear whom you are adressing. You had plenty of time to join in on the discussion, yet you come in at the end and throw in your two cents and ask for it to be locked immediately so no one can answer you back. It was my thread and so only I or a mod make the choice to lock the thread.

It was a healthy discussion and all who contributed dared to speak their minds, so again: thank you all for being brave enough to tackle such a difficult and sensitve subject in such a constructive way.

It would have been more helpful if you had. The only way to gain knowledge is to share it with others. You should speak your mind, just like the rest of us. It seems you had a very meaningful contribution to make, Conny.

No we won't forget that you spoke it's good that you did, it's important that you did. :)

Kevin I know where you are coming from and I support your views.

BillyRob I also respect your views but I think this discussion became more about the individual and less about the topic.

Ok, sweet man, I ask for this to be locked now.

Please do not add posts to this anymore.