Self awareness

Does being self-aware grant "personhood"?

It might just be semantics, but instintively:

I feel like "personhood" is something that's placed on an individual by an external source. It is some entity declaring "I consider you to be a self-aware thing."

While self-awareness might be enough to BE a person, as far as that individual is concerned, I feel like it takes an outside force to recognize that awareness in order to be considered for "the rights of personhood," whatever they may be. I don't know if that makes sense.

Is there something in particular that makes you ask?

There's a generation of crows that lives in my neighbourhood, ofcourse, I befriended them, but the neighbourhood dislikes their caws in the early morning, so they hired a tree-surgeon to cut down their house.

Ofcourse I was angry that the neigbourhood breached the land rights of these creatures, but I can't exactly arrest them for tearing down their home.

Now according to wikipedia: Crows passed the mirror tests, making them one of the sapient animals. But sadly they can't sue.

So all I can do is ask, is being self aware make you have the same rights as a fetus, which many are defending to the core?

Maybe it should, but I don't think it does, in practice. Crows (and some other birds, not to mention apes, whales, and dolphins) seem to be sentient, having understanding of self and time.

However, it think it would take some big change to make most humans treat them as such. We'll protect our own species before others. Even though we kill each other.... it's kind of like siblings: "I can pick on my sister all I want, but the second someone else does it, they're going down." But I think a part of that species-self-lauding is achieved by rationalizing that we're the only thinking things on this planet, so it doesn't really matter what we do to everything else. (I go through this with varying degrees of success when I do things like swat mosquitoes.)

There are probably some groups of humans who have worldviews where everything else in the world has some sort of awareness: from the crows, to the tree they live on, to the ground the tree's growing out of. Maybe they live more peacefully.

Now I have the Pocahontas song stuck in my head... "The colors of the wiiiiind!" Boy.

I have often wondered about the exact moment in evolution that man would have been aware that he was a human, or when an egg becomes a fetus. Many members of many priesthoods could not, by law, be consulted on this conception while determining when our rights begin because of the alleged separation of church and state. So the world seems to be in limbo on this topic

Plenty of animals are self aware. They're more intelligent than we give them credit, but humans don't respect other animals as much as they do their own species. Similarity breeds likability and understanding. These things allow for empathy and protectiveness.

I think making the assumption that someone who begs for the rights of a fetus should likewise demand the same rights for crows is too big of a leap.
I wouldn't compare a birthed crow to a human fetus. That doesn't make sense.

A fetus is a fetus is a fetus. A live animal is a live animal is a live animal.

P.S. I love crows

I wouldn't compare a birthed crow to a human fetus. That doesn't make sense.A fetus is a fetus is a fetus. A live animal is a live animal is a live animal."

I'm not comparing them, merely illustrating that we would devote all our time on another person's life choice when they're others that have absolutely no one to defend, unless they're on the verge of extinction...

If we apply personhood to a fetus, can we not to those sharing this world with us?

Ah, I getcha :) and totally agree.

Some philosophers would probably argue that there are plenty of humans who aren't even self-aware. What do you guys think? Is it possible to go a whole lifetime without actually realizing (like... REALIZING) that you exist?

Is it possible to go a whole lifetime without actually realizing (like... REALIZING) that you exist?"

Lol... I think those who go on reality TV may constitute as being not self aware... If they ever thought that question, they wouldn't be whoring themselves for our amusement...

Michael and Gabriel are the archangels named in the Bible as recognized by both Jews and many Christians. The book of Tobit mentions Raphael, who...
in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic tradition. He is viewed as the field commander of the Army of God. He is mentioned by name in the Book of Daniel
Book of Daniel

Michael is one of the few angels that has received sainthood "You' is a personal pronoun
I knew you before you received modhood . Can we have a fresh conversation about animal rights when over a trillion people throughout history may have spoken to crow and said you stop stealing my corn? Many believe they know the origin of rights yet many would be offended if I said the origin of rights is non existent?

Where do rights come from?

Some philosophers would probably argue that there are plenty of humans who aren't even self-aware. What do you guys think? Is it possible to go a whole lifetime without actually realizing (like... REALIZING) that you exist?

^^
There are different levels of awareness, and they are related to IQ, EQ and spiritual awareness and all of those levels vary, not only from one individual to the other, but also from one people to another. When two persons with very different perception of reality( due to these factors mentioned just now) have a talk, they do not necessarily have to understand what they are trying to tell each other,even when they speak the same language. In the virtual world, or when you communicate through phone, it is even harder, because then, you don't get to see their facial expression and body language( both important parts of communication)

The real danger lies in the individuals who think they know it all, whilst in reality, their knowledge and outlook on life is very limited. Much damage and hurt is caused by such creatures, in all kinds of ways. Their narrow mindedness also makes it hard for societies to move forward and run smoothly( depending on the powers of said individuals). For example: the dictator- father or boss, who wants all to stay as it has always been and tries to avoid his children/ employees to change how things are run at home/ at work.EVEN IF those things would be major improvements!

When you are very young you know you know nothing and are eager to learn, then comes adolescence and you start to think you know it all( to some this stage lasts until they die) and then as you grow older you come to understand nothing can be known for sure. This is why the biggest people known to us are also the most humble of all. They understand the relativity of all that goes on and how small their part is in the bigger picture.

I think all creatures on this earth have awareness of themselves, to some degree.

The only creatures animals have to fear, are us Hellon..sad to say. It is not cruel if one animal eats another just to survive, but we kill and wound just for fun and to stuff our fridges and cupboards with things made off their remains"just in case". Any idea how much food is wasted on a yearly basis worldwide? Mind-boggling.

Ingrid, I am offended that it seems you are putting those of us down that hunt, and actually eat our meat as a means of survival. Yes, I stuff my cupboards with everything I make, jelly, jams, fresh canned vegetables, freeze vegetables grown in my garden that we plant, tend and harvest, and yes, I harvest deer, have a freezer full of it. It is especially good with gravy.
There is a lot of food that is wasted, however, I disbelieve that those of us that harvest our own food are the ones who are wasting it. We appreciate it, need it, and therefore eat it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to break our backs farming our vegetables to waste them by not eating. There are quite a few unfortunate families that contacted my husband and I and wanted to know if they either could come hunting on our land or if we had any extra venison their family could get and they would gladly do some farming or help in return. I guess it's just the area I live in though. There are far too many greedy people in this world that do not appreciate their meals and where it came from.

If another animal eats another to survive it is instinct, when I eat an animal to survive, it is called inhumane? I just don't understand. Aren't we all animals in a sense?
Sorry if this seems off topic.....
it is not intended to be, just a division of the topic itself.

"I think all creatures on this earth have awareness of themselves, to some degree."

I agree, I think all creatures have some awareness, but I think that is the universe's design.

Lol, don't be offended Kay, How was I to know about this? I was not talking about small groups of people hunting and planning on eating what they kill. I think that is good, that you still carry on the old ways of the ancient people. In those early days we only killed what we truly needed..that is no longer the case. So much is stored and later on thrown away(in rich countries at least) We have a whole tv- campaign on here lately in which people are encouraged to not throw away their food, but use it the second time around in salads and to not buy more than they really think they need. It is not about saving money,even, it is about being aware of what you are doing.

And no, a human needs food too, so not inhumane for eating meat, but they way in which animals are housed and killed on a massive scale is horrifying. Have you never seen how chickens are housed, and how young male pigs are castrated without anesthetics? We can be beasts:(

I am sorry you took this personally, I was not referring to what you and your family do, I didn't even know about it.

I am not saying you knew about me hunting or such. Just saying that it seemed as though you were classifying everyone together.
Yes, the way that animals are killed on a massive scale is horrifying, that indeed is inhumane, the only option to that is to grow your own so that you know what goes in it. We castrated our bulls though without anesthetics, guess the hardest part was getting them on the ground to tie the rubber band around their you know whats, All is does is take their minds off ass and put it on grass. I don't think it actually hurts them, they have never tried to mess with the band, not like it hurts them. I suppose it's the way it's done though.
No it isn't about people saving money per say, it is about people being aware of what they are doing. Sometimes I think people are so unaware of nature in general they get beyond themselves in assumptions. I too, was like initially when I was first married and would go to the grocery store to buy my meals and didn't really care for leftovers. I guess you can say I have become more self aware of things within the last ten years that I took for granted growing up.

I know you wasn't referring to what my family does, I just took it that you were classifying everyone that kills their animals for food, clothing, shelter, decor or whatever. I know that's another subject that I could talk about all day.

Britt, I teach parents to allow their children to stop eating once their stomach tells them they have had enough. The old advice to finish your plate is one of the reasons why people become obese later on in life. They are taught to ignore the signals their body gives them. So make less instead. I never make more than I know my family eats and if I have something left, I store it and use it in a salad the next day.

I hope you and yours will be spared, hun...I hope no more deaths will follow:( This is rapidly turning into a nighmare with no end.

Kay, when you don't want to make too lengthy posts ,it is sometimes difficult to rule out all eventualities. I am glad you spoke up, so I could elaborate on the matter. To be self sufficient is great, and a whole lot healthier.

Hahaha. Got this as an email, thought it was appropriate for the subject at hand.

The World's Largest Army

I bet you didn’t know this. . .

In WWII, Japan 's highest-ranking naval officer was Isoruku Yamamoto. Although he was Japanese, and his loyalties were unquestionably with The Empire, he studied for many years in America, graduating from Harvard University. There is an oft-repeated (and sometimes disputed) quote attributed to him regarding the possibility of any nation taking a war to American soil:

"You cannot invade the mainland United States . There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

Here is why he was correct:

America 's Hunters. The World's Largest Army.

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great, considering there were over 600,000 hunters that got permits this year.

Allow me to restate that number: 600,000

Over the last two months, the eighth largest army in the world - more men under arms than Iran ; more than France and Germany combined - deployed to the woods of a single American state to keep the deer population under control.

But that pales in comparison to the 750,000 who are in the woods of Pennsylvania this week. Michigan 's 700,000 hunters have now returned home. Toss in a quarter million hunters in West Virginia , and it is literally the case that the hunters of those four states alone would comprise the largest army in the world.

And that is just FOUR states.

The total population of registered hunters in America today ranges from 23 million to 43.7 million individuals. (Based on annual data provided by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.) As long as the American Hunter retains his right to Bear Arms, America will forever be safe from foreign invasion of troops.

Hunting – it's not just a way to fill the freezer. It's a matter of National Security.

Most children don't like eating vegetables. that is why smoothies are so great. You can mix just about any vegetable with fruit ( and yoghurt if you like) and it will taste great, you don't really taste the veggies when you mix it, fruit is dominant.

I made one this morning, this is the recipe:

( enough for two people)
4 hands of fresh, raw spinach
1 banana
1 handful of blackberries
1 cup of non fat yoghurt
1 cup of orange juice
1 cup of water

Put it in the blender for about 2 min and drink it right away. It tastes great!

We don't have many hunters here, we are not allowed to have guns, we are a tiny country also, lol. (not much open space to go hunting)

* Noir is going to be surprised when he comes back to see what we have posted on his topic, lol!

You are right, my apologies to Noir. I will open up a thread based on something else.

Lol...Its ok to veer of the topic...But you still haven't answered the question:

If you say that the fetus is considered a person based on it having self-awareness, shouldn't the crow, dolphin, apes?

Its one thing to hunt for deer to survive, its another to hunt just because you feel like eating venison...

Two different things altogether.

I think your real question is: is it morally correct to kill/ dominate/ control creatures with self awareness?

The term "person"is restricted to humans and the crucial part in determining whether a fetus was allowed to be aborted or not revolved around this factor. My deepest feeling is that it is indeed aware, even before it enters the womb, and suffers immense pain from the rejection of its chosen parents. Yes, I think we chose the parents we want to be born out of.

If we were to say we cannot eat animals, or plants for that matter, because they have ( self) awareness, then how are we to survive?

The real dilemma lies in how we treat these creatures, knowing(at least in the back of our minds!) that the they are capable of suffering. They should be treated as respectful as possible, and have a decent life with as much freedom as possible until they are killed to serve as food for us, humans.

If we were to say we cannot eat animals, or plants for that matter, because they have ( self) awareness, then how are we to survive?"

Do you eat crows, dolphins, great apes or even pigeons? Because they passed the mirror test which unequivocally states that they have self-awareness.

Its not about the need to survive, because its instinctual nature to eat other animals, but when people hunt or kill or even neglect these animals, while picketing or screaming about killing another being...

It just brings home, that we as a society love to judge...

We crave it...If I dare say!

I am not sure everyone is aware that a dog was one of the first astronauts. Many say that a pig is as smart as a dog and in my shame I ate pork today. I watched a survival story where a man ate his loyal dog to survive starvation and how can we be sure the dog was not tempted to eat his master to survive, but did not act because he was domesticated. The dog learned to control his will to survive at the expense of his best friend. We can preach self dependence all day long yet we must admit a natural fetus is dependant on its mother and no matter how it matures, it is dependent on a life friendly environment. Philosophers have studied nature verses nurture for centuries. I think therefore I am. No one wants to answer my question where rights come from, for fear it will start a political or religious debate.

Do you eat crows, dolphins, great apes or even pigeons? Because they passed the mirror test which unequivocally states that they have self-awareness.

^^
Nope, In Holland we don't, but I know of countries where they do eat ape and pigeons...some bring their culture here and ask us to eat pigeons and all people I know are very, very unwilling to even try. Many creatures are served as food, varying from culture to culture. Lots of tribes (used to) eat other humans too.

I think that, even when we know the other has awareness, we go ahead with the killing and eating (if there is nothing else to eat OR when we are accustomed to eating it in our culture), because when push comes to shove, we want to survive, no matter what...and if you don't believe me than think back upon situations about plane crashes and guys stuck in mines and what they ultimately did to survive.

Maltreating animals occurs within all cultures, depending on the economic level and education of the inhabitants in general and it is sickening to say the least. I have seen images of poor Asian people cutting frogs in two with their bare hands and the frogs still being alive, even for a short time after. The poorer people are, the more they are willing to do barbaric things..or so it seems..but I have to say, looking at how many chickens, pigs are housed right here in "civilized"Holland..it tears my heart apart:( We are the real animals, Noir, I have said this many times, also on here..the question often is"will we get away with it?"and if the answer is a yes, we go ahead:(