God

If you think evolution and religion can walk hand in hand you are stupid it can't. No offence.

The Bible is our "guide book" for Christianity. The Bible says that Everything was created in 6 days and on the seventh day God rested. God spoke and it was.

EVOLUTION AND CHRISTIANITY CANNOT WALK HAND IN HAND. Its one or the other it can't be both.

Oh and I really would like to see the evidence about proving evolution. I'm very interested in the missing link of evolution that they have not found yet. lol. I challenge you find me REAL evidence.

Alright, fine I admit they don't have and official..."link" as you call it, but they have enough proof of our relations to the former species that if you study, than it's pretty hard to just ignore the facts that they DO have and try to come up with explanations as to why they don't contribute to the theory.

As to the religion and evolution walking "hand in hand" I totally agree. Look: to the person who said the bible is our ...guidebook
Bret didn't mean a religous or non religous person to grasp both ideas, I'm pretty sure he meant THAT THE IDEAS CAN EXIST PEACEFULLY with one another and not create discomfort or ill vibes between people...of course he didn't mean a person has to believe in both, where the hell did you get that?

Also, I completley agree with his statement, which is something that I keep trying to say yet keep getting bashed for. I said in my reasons as to why I am not religous that I did not mean to offend anyone, and was comepletley attaked by that arrogant Lipton guy.

It doesn't have to be one or the other in general. People can have different ideas and believe what they want.

Pink:

"and did you just call me Darla??"

This is hilarious! There is more than just you and me on this forum... Look up, close to the beginning of the forum... There's a girl there that signed her name Darla.

"Second.....I don't know where the hell you've been. Look up evolution, I don't think your intelligent enough for me to get involved with you anymore, so I'm not even going to try"

"Alright, fine I admit they don't have and official..."link" as you call it, but they have enough proof of our relations to the former species that if you study, than it's pretty hard to just ignore the facts that they DO have and try to come up with explanations as to why they don't contribute to the theory."

I'M not intelligent enough? Where is your "proof" of evolution? Where does it say that the THEORY of evolution is FACT? And don't give me some cop-out answer like, "Just study it," because if you're so bent on it being true, you must have something to back it up. Prove to me that evolution is true. Take into consideration:

Where did our earth come from? Science is used to explain such an occurance, yet science also states that "Matter is neither created, nor destroyed." Does that mean atoms are infinitely existant?

Also, if evolution were true, why are there still monkeys? Why is it that so many animals have so many little odds and ends that humans have always been dreaming of? Wings (birds) speed (cheetah), and so much more?

If evolution were true, there wouldn't be any short people.

"As to the religion and evolution walking "hand in hand" I totally agree. Look: to the person who said the bible is our ...guidebook
Bret didn't mean a religous or non religous person to grasp both ideas, I'm pretty sure he meant THAT THE IDEAS CAN EXIST PEACEFULLY with one another and not create discomfort or ill vibes between people...of course he didn't mean a person has to believe in both, where the hell did you get that?"

If such a thing were true, why are evolutionists, and creationists always fighting?

"Also, I completley agree with his statement, which is something that I keep trying to say yet keep getting bashed for. I said in my reasons as to why I am not religous that I did not mean to offend anyone, and was comepletley attaked by that arrogant Lipton guy."

I wasn't attacking you... Just showing where your ideas conflicted with reason. So far, I have seen most of your posts full of assumptions on what other people say, or do... Not to offend you, but your posts don't seem very well thought out. You need to understand what it is you're disagreeing with before you disagree with it.

"It doesn't have to be one or the other in general. People can have different ideas and believe what they want."

I totally agree... But one must have a valid reason for disagreeing when they try to make themselves all public about it. Using "Evolution disproves God," when evolution hasn't even been proven, makes you look (no offense) ignorant.

~Ciao Lipton

Anne:

I said evolution and RELIGION can work hand in hand...

not Christianity.

Please read what I write, absorb it and think about your reply carefully before running off on a knee-jerk reaction assumption.

Thank you.

Lip:

Using "Evolution disproves God," when evolution hasn't even been proven, makes you look (no offense) ignorant.

Does God disprove evolution?

General question:

If evolution does not and cannot exist why are getting bigger, more intelligent, faster, stronger and more capable?

"Does God disprove evolution?"

Bret:
1) I never said it did.
2) Yes, because God made all things they way they are. Things didn't change from one organism to another.

Now, someone will come back saying this is my opinion. It may very well be... Just like evolution is someone ELSE'S opinion.

Now, I'm all for social evolution. Yes, we are getting more intelligent as a humans... I disagree with the changing from one specie to another. We are getting stronger, and more capable, due to medical enhancements, and people's desire to want to be stronger (work-out systems, and whatnot), not because we're turning into a different, more enhanced specie.

Now, I'm doing homework at the moment at school, with a teacher hovering around the room... I would write more, but I'm having trouble shuffling this window and the Google window (make it look like I'm doing something...)

~Ciao Lipton

General question:

If evolution does not and cannot exist why are getting bigger, more intelligent, faster, stronger and more capable?

"Does God disprove evolution?"

2) Yes, because God made all things they way they are. Things didn't change from one organism to another.

Sorry man, I charge you with the same ignorance, no offence. You can't prove God anymore than any man can prove evolution.

Social and physical evolution are intrinsically tied. You cannot have one without the other as they affect one another simbiotically.

Bret
Christianity and religion walk hand in hand.

I waited about three hours after seeing what you wrote before posting this.

The Bible says that no man will believe in God unless God opens his eyes. In other words everyone is spiritually blind and is unable to see untill God opens their eyes and ears.

I think man is getting stronger etc. because of medical advances and proper nutrients not because we are "evolving" into better creatures.

Is Chrisitanity linked to any other religion than Christianity?

What if my religion involves a God that plonked us on the world and left us to it? Survival of the fittest, grow and adapt to your surroundings.

I never made any referrence to Christianity, you did. Your argument has nothing to do with my implications. My argment specifically removes Christianity, Judaism and any other religion that implies evolution is wrong.

Religion:
1. a: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

b: A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

I do not see Christianity mentioned there.

God. Is. Me. :)

In fact evolution can be considered a religion going by definition 4.

We can prove evolution.

They are adaptive mechanisms and they can be shown throughout history through the skeletons of humans and other animals.

I have not read this whole conversation, so I hope I am underestimating people by pointing out the obvious, because if we are disputing the existance of evolution, you guys need to go back to 4th grade science and learn a few things.

Evolution:

1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

2.
1. The process of developing.
2. Gradual development.

3. Biology.
1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
2. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.

4. A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.

5. Mathematics. The extraction of a root of a quantity.

(definitions of religion and evolution taken from dictionary.com)

kaitlin kristina....

THANK YOU
well said, you said it alot better than i did

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't believe we came from monkeys, and that everything else came from some other prehistoric animal.

"We can prove evolution.

They are adaptive mechanisms and they can be shown throughout history through the skeletons of humans and other animals."

We CANNOT prove that a monkey, millions or so years later, will become a human being. Yes, there are ADAPTIVE changes, but not changing into a completely different thing.
(ie monkey - human)

So, evolution exists to an extent, but I do not believe in the changing from one thing, to another.

Bret:

Right, that is my point… Pink keeps claiming God doesn’t exist based on the belief that evolution has been proven right. Right now, she has the burden of proof, and, whether or not I can answer this question, doesn’t mean anything at the moment, because in order for her to say something like that, she needs to be able to back it up, which I have not yet seen.

Now, remember, science is based on logic, and rationalities. Science has limits. There is a definite in science. With God, there is none of that. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to explain God in humanistic terms, which is why there is no answer to “Prove God.”

So, to end this discussion quicker, perhaps someone would like to prove to me evolution.

Pink:

I'm still looking for this "proof" that you keep saying exists. Kaitlin didn't do anything for you. Her statements do not prove evolution.

~Ciao Lipton

kaitlin kristina....

THANK YOU
well said, you said it alot better than i did

Alright lip, you seem a little more intelligent than I thought until you said...
"I'M not intelligent enough? Where is your "proof" of evolution? Where does it say that the THEORY of evolution is FACT? And don't give me some cop-out answer like, "Just study it," because if you're so bent on it being true, you must have something to back it up. Prove to me that evolution is true. Take into consideration:"

and so forth....did you not read what I wrote earlier? you did in fact copy it. Maybe you should RE READ IT and I would gladly start a new forum with you if your so obsessed with the argument but it's not worth taking up so much room in here because I'm tired of it.

And I don't know where you got that I don't "know what I'm disagreeing with" I seem to have proved many statements wrong and my own right through many of these if you haven't notioced and thoroughly studied the subjects, so I don't know where you got that.

anyway, Thanks bret, You actually did bring in hard based research and I'm appreciative for that.

Also, to everyone who has said that "evolution doesn't disprove God" (which doesn't make any sense relating to the story of Adam and Eve) or that we don't have any proof of evolution, wheres your proof of God?

_side note: not meant to offend anyone who hasn't been following the conversation, or even those involved, it's just something that others have repeated throughout, I know it sounds blunt and rude_

Evolution does not disprove God, just as God does not disprove evolution. Not nearly.

I think Creationists and Evolutionists both need a good kick up the backside.

Both God and evolution exist alongside one another in my faith. That's what free will is all about. If we were destined not to evolve and stay the same then we would have died out millenia ago to some influenza strain.

Oh wow, I think I got in over my head without knowing it.

Evolution does not prove or disprove God. Religion and Science have never mixed ever since the discovery of the world being round.

Evolution exists, and God cannot be proved or disproved outside of perhaps quantum physics, but that is another post entirely and proving, or disproving, God is a ways away.

Was that an official twighlight zone moment?

Great minds think alike.

Pink:

"Also, to everyone who has said that "evolution doesn't disprove God" (which doesn't make any sense relating to the story of Adam and Eve) or that we don't have any proof of evolution, wheres your proof of God?"

Ah... This is a fallacy in and of itself. I asked you a question, and until you have given me a direct answer, you cannot think I will try to answer your question. If we went by your idea of answering a question, with a question, I'll answer your question, with a question of my own:

"to everyone who has said that "God doesn't disprove evolution" or that we don't have any proof of God, where's your proof of evolution?"

And we could just keep going on. Now, again, I CHALLENGE you to give me some hardcore evidence that we came from monkeys. You have the burden of proof, and such a burden cannot be shifted so easily.

".....I don't know where the hell you've been. Look up evolution, I don't think your intelligent enough for me to get involved with you anymore, so I'm not even going to try"
"Alright lip, you seem a little more intelligent than I thought until you said..."

This made me chuckle.

Still I have yet to see this proof of evolution. I haven't seen any proof of it in your posts. Just beliefs and opinions that it does. Where is your undeniable proof of evolution?

"...and so forth....did you not read what I wrote earlier? you did in fact copy it. Maybe you should RE READ IT and I would..."

Just to make you happy, I did, RE READ IT and I still did not see any form of solid proof.

"And I don't know where you got that I don't "know what I'm disagreeing with" I seem to have proved many statements wrong and my own right through many of these if you haven't notioced and thoroughly studied the subjects, so I don't know where you got that."

Really? I couldn't tell. You haven't proved anything wrong with anything more than opinion. You come back with statements that are solidly based on something you can't even prove... That would seem to me that you haven't read deep enough into these topics.

Now, again, I wish for you to prove to me evolution. =)

I have to go eat supper now.

~Ciao Lipton

How does God not have a part in evolution? I am not necessarily saying we came from monkeys, but there is no doubt we have changed and modified ourselves with the use of adaptive mechanisms throughout our history. That is PROVEN already, what are you disputing exactly?

Evolution is a known scientific FACT.

Check out this site, Lipton, I think you may enjoy it :)

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=906204

*

I do, however, think its funny that you want CONCRETE evidence of something as understood and accepted as evolution, yet you cannot offer the same concrete evidence outside of the Bible for its validity, very interesting.

Kaitlin:

Are you talking about adaptive "evolution" or the kind where we came from monkeys.

The THEORY (where we came from monkeys), has NOT been proven, which is why it's still a theory.

If your speaking about the theory of evolution, I ask you the same question I did Pink. Where is said proof? Please, give it to me.

(Now, I'm leaving for real. Honestly!!!) =)

~Ciao Lipton

PS: No cop-out answers like, "Just look for it," or "What do you think they taught you in junior high?"

Although the cop out answers are tempting, because I think this is an obvious question, I added the link above. You COULD search for it, if you wanted to, but what fun is it to prove yourself wrong?

EVOLUTION in general is accepted, that is adaption so that we can survive, we would have died out by now if we did not adapt, look at skin color, that is proof of evolution right there.

Did we come from monkeys? I dont really care. It doesnt affect me directly if we did or not. Its not something that I think about often, so I have no formulated opinion.

I joined in the conversation late, so I dont know what kind of evolution you are disputing, but to turn the argument around, evolution does not DISprove God.

Kaitlin don't worry you are in the perfect spot.

"EVOLUTION in general is accepted, that is adaption so that we can survive, we would have died out by now if we did not adapt, look at skin color, that is proof of evolution right there."

Kaitlin....you are....my savior.

You have no idea how happy I am that your here.

Alright...lip...I am way too tired to explain how many incredibly wrong things you wrote in your reply...its...amazing
I said it before, I'll say it again. Lip, if your obsessed with this argument, create a new forum and I will gladly argue with you there, till then, I'm not going to bother with your rediculous replys.

Also, this proof of evolution...did you visite the site??? and did you happen to read that kaitlin didn't know, or care about the evolution of monkeys? if so, then why did you ask the question that was already answered?

and about me asking if you reread it, i was saying that not because of evidence, because I stated "I know we don't have an official missing link" and so forth
obviously.

Lipton and I have had the go-round as well.

I commend his dedication and knowledge, but this fight seems kind of like we are all saying the same thing...

Again, I came in late, so I dont know what the argument was about besides God proving or disproving evolutiona and vis versa.

Lipton I am so sorry - I referred to you several times as a "she" my sincerest apologies...

*Eirisa opens mouth only to change the foot she has in there* :o)

lol, Eirisa, you are so sweet. I just have to say that, because I think it often when I read your posts. Its refreshing to see someone like you on the forums. Sweet, constructive, honest but not brash, and not out for a fight.

Dog breeding and genus creation is proof of evolution.

Eirisa:

No harm done. =) I agree with Kaitlin, that it is nice to have someone so calm on these forums... Just wish there were more... *sigh*

Anyway, Pink. If I have so many ridiculous comments, perhaps you'd like to point them out, instead of copping out and saying, "There are just so many..." and "Make another forum, and I'll argue with you there."

1) We aren't arguing. We are discussing... Or, at least, I am.
2) That is a lame, cop-out reply to avoid my questions.

I already said I believe in adaptive changes, because those DO happen. I went to that website, Kaitlin, and, unfortunately, it didn't tell me much, besides what I already know. I believe in adaptive changes (call it evolution, or whatever), but not the Theory of Evolution. That's what I am disagreeing with.

Pink:

"Also, this proof of evolution...did you visite the site??? and did you happen to read that kaitlin didn't know, or care about the evolution of monkeys? if so, then why did you ask the question that was already answered?"

Alright, I feel as though I'm repeating myself... Oh wait, I am.

PINK SAID:
"God was proved to have been non-existant when evolution was brought into theory, and PROVED"

I SAID:
"Prove that the THEORY of evolution is true."

You all have told me nothing about the THEORY of evolution, where we came from monkeys or whatever. Whether or not Kaitlin cares about if we came from monkeys, should not change what it was you said, Pink. Just because people that live in the mountains have bigger lungs, due to thinner air, does NOT mean that we evolved from lesser creatures along the way. And just because someone in the mountains has bigger lungs than someone at sea level, does not, by any means, mean that God has been proven wrong. Do you see my point?

You stated that the theory of evolution disproved God, when, in reality, the theory of evolution hasn't even been proven itself.

Now, I think I'm done here right now...

In all respect, I do not in any way mean to offend anyone. Just having a happy little discussion... erm...

Whereas nothing, right now, has really been solved, I agree with the redundancy of this forum... So far, nothing has happened in the past few posts besides, "Prove evolution is right. Prove God is right. Prove evolution's right etc." Let's move on to something else, shall we?

~Ciao Lipton

As I said before, I joined into the conversation late and didnt know what about evolution was being disagreed with.

We know that adaptive evolution is fact, speculative evolution (like coming from monkeys), is as such, purely speculative, and science will someday tell.

Until then, evolution does not prove or disprove God, nor does he prove or disprove any type of evolution.

Alright Lipton first let me explain those things in your latest post,

About me saying that evolution disproves God. Yes, I know that us evolving from apes is a theory. I thought I made that clear earlier but now that I re-read it I realize I got it mixed up with the proof of evolution of other species. And what I meant by that was it conflicts with the story of God creating all animals. Umm I think that’s all I can remember from your latest post to justify, but I might re-read and add more later on if I forgot any, for now I’m too lazy.

And, I realize you are right. I can get really into such arguments and can become insulting and rude (though you have to admit you were in your first reply, which set me off)
We did keep arguing in circles, and that is because I wasn’t typing my replies into further detailed answers with new information because I wasn’t reading my comments from before, so I kept repeating myself.
I do admit that I agitated people and started a lot of arguments (but then again you did too, saying you didn’t mean to offend anyone buttttt looking back even in that post you have to admit you did make rude comments as well)
And for all this I apologize, I can seriously get carried away with these things, and even though Lipton I made comments about your intelligence, I could tell you are a worthy and challenging debate opponent if we were to ever meet in person, which is another comment of mine that I think if everyone in this discussion were actually in a room together, it would have been a lot easier to comprehend people’s answers and further detail what we were saying rather than online.

Anyway, I’m sort of tired of this roundabout thing. I’ll probably get involved again sooner than I’d ought to, but hey that’s the kind of person I am:)
So, apologies to everyone I offended. I tend to get carried away with subjects I feel greatly opinionated about.

Pink:

I thank you for your:
1) Honesty
2) Maturity

I admit, I may have gotten a bit carried away in some places, but I try not to... There is no need for apology for offense, because it is inevitable someone will be offended in a discussion like this. It's when attacking the specific person, and offending the person (like, calling them names, or bringing up things that don't have anything to do with the conversation, just to make them mad etc.), during a debate, that it becomes a problem.

By the way, in order to easily recall a thread, so you can answer it, you just click the "Answer" link next to the post you wish to see, so you'll be able to easily answer the post you're trying to... Just pointing it out.

So..............

~Ciao Lipton