God and control

So i don't wanna offend anyone, i'll say this now, i am not downtalking so please don't feel offened.

i was just wondering something. so many people say "f you do this you'll go to hell" or "you're acting against God" and "God doesn't like that" or whatnot.
but the same people believe or say that God is in control and leads you and tells you what to do.

well, if He is the one in control, and making you do things, why would you go to hell for it? He is the one that has you do it, so is He purposely sending you the wrong way so you go to hell?

It's all about you and how you think about it... We are human and humans make mistakes, we use our minds to fix or learn from our mistakes and we should (regardless whether we believe or not).

Extremists are the ones who think the way you just put down. Religion points out that we are human and that there always is a chance to repent. It also doesn't state that god controls all, it states that he knows all and has the power to control all. Humans have free will given to you by god for you to make choices... you chose, whether you want to make the right or wrong.

I think what your trying to say is that religion puts so many limitations to what you can and cannot do and going to hell seems so easy... My opinion, as long as you're a good person and have morals you go by, you're on the safe side... The people who I think go to hell are only ones who deserve it; like killers and dictators.

Depending on what religion you go by, there are many theories on the degrees and time in hell a person gets. Just like prison in real life, you are sentenced to hell according to the degree of wrong you have done and whether or not you learned from it.

In the end your religion is what you make it... what seems logical to you.

Funny Girl said it best. It is free will. God gives you the choice to make your own decisions. He does not want to MAKE someone follow him. If you didn't have a choice and every single person on this Earth believed the same thing, did the same right thing, and everyone was 100% good, what would the point of the Earth be?

He wants you to succeed, and gives you opportunities. I don't know how many times I made the wrong decision and somehow had the SAME choices laid out in front of me like a deja vu moment.

Basically the christian god as depicted by classical christian theology is wrong (please read all the way to the end.) i say this because of some pretty easily understandable scenarios. firstly lets establish the assumptions of the classical christian god

Omnipotent:all powerful
Omniscient: all knowing
Omni-benevolent:all do-good ing

god, is not all powerful because of 2 basic scenarios. he cannot directly influence our human beings because of free will. god also would have difficulty creating a rock so large he could not lift it, or microwaving a burrito so hot he couldnt eat it.

god cannot be all knowing, if he was then there would be no reason to have humans running around on earth at all proving their worth to go to heaven. you could skip the whole earth thing, judge innocence or guilt, and sent souls immediately to eternal damnation or eternal salvation.

god cannot be all benevolent. the urge to help fight cancer and cure the earth of war, poverty, disease, racism, and all other manner of things would be far too great. he would most likely have forgiven adam and eve and everything woulda been garden of eden. or maybe hes too busy helping football superstars win games and scientists win nobel prizes, and doesnt have much time left for the starving central african populations.

all this means is that the christian perception of god is wrong, not that god doesnt exist. perhaps he does, and the means by which it operates are so completely beyond comprehension that we can never expect to understand how it works or predict when the rapture will be.

or maybe god is crock and life is about living.

im a possibilianist, so i dont disagree with anyone, im not saying god does or does not exist. im also not saying that christians are lying, i think maybe they just jumped the gun on some of their philosophical points way back in the 15th-16th century and nobody had the balls to think it out and risk execution or burning at the stake.

^ Ha. TS just gave the best possible answer here.

And if you all recall Nietzsche's words: God Is Dead. That (what TS said) is what he meant. Christians have given god all these paradoxial attributes that if one rational person starts investigating them, they all result to God's foul inexistence. Hence, He is dead and we have killed him. And by "god" i mean the definition that christians gave to him.

I believe you cannot be a serious thinking person, and actually entertain the idea that God controls anything, or even influences anything.

I don't believe in God in the first place, but if I did, it would be in a detached aloof uncaring God who made us as an experiment and is content to sit back and watch, utterly removed and no involved. THis is the only reasonable explanation.

If you think otherwise, if you honestly feel God influences us and has some kind of plan, or hope for humanity...please post some supporting evidence.

I don't have to list the endless reasons why it seems clear there is no such thing as divine influence. If our world is Gods plan, all I have to say is.

God is really shit at making plans, and is probably on holiday.

Our planet is mostly not habitable for humans, either covered in water, or too hot or cold....some plan eh?

Biologists have pointed out how imperfectly our bodies are suited to standing upright, the spinal column works quite well for quadrupeds, where it is normally horizontal. However, stand it upright (as we humans have it), and there are some problems, notably slipped discs and lower back pain....some design eh?

My final point is very simple.

Lets say humanity is at least 100,000 years old, modern homo sapiens. Are we to believe heaven and God stood by and watched us suffer, die before we were 25, if they even made it past childbirth...dying of teeth problems, famine, war..violence..God watches this with complete indifference for 98,000 years...and then decides the best way to intervene is by a human sacrifice kickstarted by appearing to a group of poorly educated illeterate shepards in the middle east. Not over in China where more people can read and write and study evidence..no, in the desert where folks are dumb.

Come on, does anyone really believe this is the plan of some higher power?

It has puzzled philosophers for centuries how to simplify good and evil, light and darkness, order and chaos. It seems the more dogmatic we are the farther we stray from the purpose of a belief system . It is virtually impossible to master humility, as a master is not easily enslaved. In the extremes of my life I have studied the lives of people in man made prisons designed to make them conform to man made laws. I have studied people who voluntarily join orders in the hopes of obtaining a higher peace on earth. The obedience to laws represent freedom to both, though I don't expect many to understand it on a mundane plane.

Kevin you ask for proof, it is called faith. When you are a believer and you follow Christ there is no mistake in what you see, hear and feel. You're never going to change your mind, and your posts about science are hardly going to change anyone (at least my) mind. So I find discussing this with you to be rather pointless.

Basically my view in it is that god does exist, no one can deny it, not even atheists. the point of conflict is whether man created god, or god created man.

even if man created god, and there really isn't a god in the literal sense, hes just a word in a really popular book, then he still has A LOT of pull in the world which is a really interesting phenomenon.

i mean really think about it, some one invented a concept several hundred years ago, and people are still revering it as a real entity?

again im not disagreeing with anyone or anything, im just saying think about it.

I have a hard time believing that man created God. My belief is that God does not and can not lie, and what is in the Bible is fact. With that, I believe that God created man.

If man created God - the concept has stuck around for a very long time, and that is quite possibly the biggest movement ever. It's not just Christianity (though I use that term loosely. I think too many people have ruined the term), but you have tons of religions that hold beliefs in God, or multiple Gods. So is one real and the others not, are all real, are all not? It's one of those unknowns.

In the end, my religious beliefs have not hindered my life. If it comes down to the end and I was wrong, so be it. No harm was really done. I do not kill in the name of God, I do not do harmful things to myself or others/things in the name of God.

This is interesting, because my Pastor just touched on this a while ago, about free will. That He wants us to succeed but gives us the option not to. The theory behind countries having so much pain and destruction is not God, but the Devil. There are opportunities that God gives and if we do not take them..plans change. It's hard for me to explain..I have the idea in my head but I can't form the sentence lol

Well.... the bible is sorta wrong, in a lot of ways. in the old testament it says that bats are birds for instance, not mammals. in fact there are all sorts of things in the old testament that are completely messed up. you know... selling your daughter into sexual bondage, how to treat your slaves which are ok to have... that sort of thing.

christianity is all well and good. people are the ones who screwed it up, and people wrote the bible. the bible as a concept is all well and good, the people who wrote it at the time just didnt understand the world very well. the most recent book after all was added something like 1900 years ago... i think... wsnt revelations added around 95 AD?

Oh right, also poisoning your wife if you think she is cheating on you.

Ah Britt, faith is not proof...it's not even supporting evidence. Faith is what you need to have when you have nothing else to back up what you believe.

My posts about science? I don't need to change anyone's mind sweetie, facts are facts. You don't need faith to believe in 99% of science (ignoring Quantum stuff) so I don't see the link you are making. If I present research or evidence to back up something I say, that is a whole level above you just saying

"the proof in God is faith"

Circular statements are wonderful aren't they?

"It's obviously true because I believe it....geddit?"

No one here is in the business of lying to themselves, or wanting to be wrong. I know you are a very intelligent woman, just please don't try to offer my the idea that faith is proof.

Faith is the ultimate evidence for lack of proof.

The idea that God controls and influences us is repellent to me. It's like divine dictator, a father figure who will never die, never let you grow up and be free and has the ability to convict you, not only for your actions, but your thoughts also.

Thought crime is the very definition of totalitarian dictatorship. Who but a slave would want that?

Yes, the old testament is crazy, in my opinion. I was raised Seventh Day Adventist and they live by the old testament. But you have to read and know the new testament, as well.

Kevin, God does not control us. Influence, sure, as anyone could easily influence another. A musician could influence an up and coming musician. Poets could influence other poets, actors influencing other actors, teachers, parents etc. So why could God and His word not influence those who believe in Him? That's the great thing about God - He doesn't MAKE you believe.

My point about faith was lost on you, which I thought might. :/ You don't believe in God, so you probably don't feel that miracle, that awe that is bestowed upon you. There is a feeling that I find absolutely impossible to explain, and that's why I just summed it up under faith. I have witnessed changes in my life, miracles even, and if that is because of chance and not God, so be it. But I prefer to think there is a big guy upstairs who is pulling for me. Who doesn't want -someone- in their corner?

So yes, to me, faith is proof. Faith, for me, is that feeling that I cannot describe. I hope someone else chimes in and knows what I'm talking about, otherwise I just sound like a lunatic, lol.

Well... im here to offer 3 possibilities

---god does not exist, science is the answer.

science, which has basis and proof, and makes complete logical sense relies on the scientific assumption that the universe is causally ordered. that is to say that you could take a pen and trace every atom all the way back to the big bang. god is NOT causally ordered and does not fit into the scientific view of the universe.

---science is wrong, god is the answer

the scientific assumptions are no better than the 'faith' by which christian's assume their god exists. you could call this idea occam's razor, but in a universe of pure assumption, exactly what you are assuming as a beginning factor seems entirely irrelevant if you are starting from present and working backwards. there was a big bang and the universe was created, or perhaps god microwaved an angel, and the ensuing blast created the universe.

---science is the answer, but so is god and mankind just fucked up when trying to figure out what god is.

maybe science is the answer to everything, and maybe god is an amazingly powerful social phenomenon that exists outside of the physical universe, and within the context of the 'collective consciousness.' in existing inside of our minds, god is physically manifested through our actions.
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there is no overall truth and right answer. this is because my truth is different than kevin's truth which is different than britt's truth. maybe our variations are almost the same, maybe we believe completely different things.

every human makes critical assumptions about the universe based entirely around themselves, and how they are.
___________________________

lets just stop saying to each other that we are wrong, and that one way is the right way. we need to unify our ideas, synchronize our beliefs and determine on a whole that we are all correct, and that we are all wrong. lets be unified in our correct wrongness.

What i mean to say is that atheists should go to church once in a while and hear what pastors have to say about fulfillment and life, give a real look at the metaphysical paths toward happiness and fullfillment, and christians should skip church every now and then to meditate on their own thoughts, and possibly read essays about the universe we live in, look at pictures of Lechuguilla Cave, value this world as one would value Eden.

most importantly, we need to walk forward into fulfillment with our eyes open, and our arms held wide.

to buy completely into one notion on any assumption, and then ignore all other possibilities as potential truths is not the way to seek the answers and truths of ourselves, or the universe.

"The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.
For in revery you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.
And take with you all men:
For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.
And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.
Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.
You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees."

Kahlil Gibran

A poet is to a poem as a creator is to a creation, and the one thing I believe intelligent design has in common with evolution is that man gave names to all of the animals . I was taught that I am a human being created in the image and likeness of a supreme being.

If there were no rules on this site God would still not fit in this cyberspace but if I might quote one who is like God in a small valley I would gladly swear to tell, the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me God, while I offer my testimony

An atheist believes that God is a figment of man's imagination
I guess they imagine that there is no hope of our eternal salvation
Creationist may conclude, that man is a fragment of God's imagination
We are created in His image and likeness, yet God is not a creation
We are an image of a Supreme Being, Who always was and always will be
Our imagination extends beyond what we have seen and what we will see
But I cannot imagine creation without a Creator, or time without eternity
A future without destiny, or space without infinity, or love without Divinity
But even if I could imagine a complex universe as a simple coincidence
Brought about by chance without a Creator, in the bliss of my ignorance
And ignore the logic of my mind, imagining there is no Divine providence
I could still conclude the universe just didn't happen, by objective evidence
If you can imagine creation, more orderly than this rhythm and rhyme,
Without a creator just happen by chance, and there is really nothing sublime
About the simplicity of a poem that was to be written sooner or later in time
Then you want to descend further into illusion, with no desire to climb
Has mankind eaten the fruit of a real or an imaginary tree?
Is the story of creation scientific fact, or biblical poetry?
Man can be creative with his imagination it's easy to see
Man builds with his imagination that is a factual reality
When he uses his knowledge for good he builds to preserve and heal
When he uses his knowledge for evil he builds things to destroy and kill
We can imagine a world with borders, division, and wars descending to damnation
Or we can imagine ascending and uniting with the Creator with a beautiful imagination

"An atheist believes that God is a figment of man's imagination

I guess they imagine that there is no hope of our eternal salvation"

well no... but many believe in living in the moment. in enjoying life, and leading moral lives. doing what they think is right. being good now so that you can be rewarded later is selfish and greedy. i would rather be good for the sake of being good.

"Creationist may conclude, that man is a fragment of God's imagination

We are created in His image and likeness, yet God is not a creation"

thats exactly the problem, god is not causally ordered, nothing created him, therefore i can argue that he never happened. at least following the same logic you later state.

"We are an image of a Supreme Being, Who always was and always will be"

or perhaps we are so arrogant that we created god in our own image.

"Our imagination extends beyond what we have seen and what we will see

But I cannot imagine creation without a Creator, or time without eternity

A future without destiny, or space without infinity, or love without Divinity"

the universe started at some point, science jsut argues that god probably wasnt that catalyst that started it. instead it was an instability in the fabric of reality. space also has no real argument for being considered infinite, and if divinity is as painful as love then i dont believe there is room enough in the human heart for both.

"But even if I could imagine a complex universe as a simple coincidence

Brought about by chance without a Creator, in the bliss of my ignorance

And ignore the logic of my mind, imagining there is no Divine providence

I could still conclude the universe just didn't happen, by objective evidence"

not a coincidence, a scientific eventuality. a creator is unlikely, a stimuli or factor is more believable and fits more readily with a scientific method. i would also advise against using objective evidence in an argument against science. evidence really isnt the strong suit of religion. at all.

"If you can imagine creation, more orderly than this rhythm and rhyme,

Without a creator just happen by chance, and there is really nothing sublime

About the simplicity of a poem that was to be written sooner or later in time

Then you want to descend further into illusion, with no desire to climb"

i disagree very strongly. without the baggage of religion as falsely dictated by thousands of generations of beings who did not understand the world, i advocate opening our eyes and moving forward into knowledge with eyes unclouded by prejudice.

"Has mankind eaten the fruit of a real or an imaginary tree?"

metaphorical

"Is the story of creation scientific fact, or biblical poetry?"

there is no solid argument that relies on no assumptions at all on either side, this is why i am possibilianist.

"Man can be creative with his imagination it's easy to see

Man builds with his imagination that is a factual reality"

well yeah. it is in our subconscious nature to order things. its just what we do. the universe may be a ball of chaos and random factors and discordant governing forces and we would still try to bring order to it and explain everything.

tagging god on it and then refusing to look at alternative explanations does not seem at all creative though... just shallow and lazy.

When he uses his knowledge for good he builds to preserve and heal

When he uses his knowledge for evil he builds things to destroy and kill

We can imagine a world with borders, division, and wars descending to damnation

Or we can imagine ascending and uniting with the Creator with a beautiful imagination

Thank you TSI25, now take your imaginary pen and trace the natural universal laws to their origins and you may stand a change of changing one neuron in my washed brain

Tsi25, its an i not a 1.

im not trying to prove one method or another to you, its that im saying neither explanation can be correct in the way its modernly understood.

i just want people to look at everything, all the beliefs, all the facts and research that is relevant toward what they are interested in, before choosing one single philosophy and pasting over all other possibilities

"On January 3, 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental collapse. Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What actually happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale states that Nietzsche witnessed the whipping of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect the horse, and then collapsed to the ground" wikki

I would not argue with Nietzsche philosophy or love of wisdom, but the proof is often in the tasting of the pudding. Whether his logic was the product of horse sense or not, what is good for the goose is good for the gander and no philosopher is fairly judged at their lowest acceptance into normal standards.

In the year of or Lord 2011 the stigma on my Lord exist in the minds of those whom reject the Holy Spirit which even you have stated survived at the very least metaphorically

It seems that horse sense is not intrinsically evil in this common era, and have no issue with common sense. TSI25.

Hey Britt,

( I'm going to let Tsi25 handle Micheal, cause I just won't go there..: )

I'm curious that you consider God can influence us in the same way one poet might influence another. How exactly do you think God influences us?

Your point about faith wasn't lost on me. I used to be a believer in God, when I was younger and I've had faith in various experiences and the common explanations (I used to be a devout believer in Astral Projection and all the associated theories...til I started reading outside the box on it). I understand there are parts of religious experience that can't be pinned down, as they are very personal and internal..like your "feelings" (no sarcasm). That is fine and you are entitled to it. Your personal experience doesn't stand up as proof of anything being real outside of yourself.

Your personal faith, based on your personal experiences and feelings can't possibly justify or add truth to a faith system outside of yourself. Do you get what I'm saying? God is outside of you, true ot false..the idea of him is not limited to you, but your supporting evidence is entirely personal and subjective.

"Your personal faith, based on your personal experiences and feelings can't possibly justify or add truth to a faith system outside of yourself. Do you get what I'm saying? God is outside of you, true ot false..the idea of him is not limited to you, but your supporting evidence is entirely personal and subjective."

Any therapy must be consumed whether chemical , mental or spiritual to have effect. Any adjustment of attitude requires the acceptance of change. When I am not in need of healing I avoid physicians . That does not mean I will never need one. Mankind seems to have built altars since the beginning of civilization. It is less important that human nature be consumed with divinity than to consume the Life force.

I'm on my phone so please disregard any weird format or spelling. It's a pain.

I'll use Sib for an example since she has influenced me. I read her writin, and am inspired. Her words move me, the format/structure is intriguing, ideas and clarity are beautiful. She makes me want to be a better writer. I want to improve because of poets like her. Her poetry moves me (influences).

God makes me want to be a better person. Sure I don't need God to be a better person, if I'm a good person I should be one on my own. But He is a moral compass. The Bible, the music, being a part of my church, it's all making me a better person - and I'm happier.

I don't mean just my personal experiences. I know many people who have felt what I have, we've talked about it often. That's what I meant before :)

I completely understand what you mean and what you're saying. But to me, it's all personal.. I don't believe in God to fit in with someone, or to be liked by a certain crowd. It's not to "follow the norm" etc. Its personal to and for me :)

Fair point Micheal.

You need a physician because you don't know why you are ill or how to fix it so you give power to the healer and let them sort you out.

Religion has been like that in a way, not so much now but historically. People had no idea about alot of things, and so gave over power to a God to make them feel better.

I can well see the theraputic benifits of religion, but of course that doesn't add a single dot of truth to it. Every religion could function like a placebo effect...be entirely useful and completely devoid of content.

I'm glad to see humanity is learning to heal itself without old Doctor God.

God may be a moral compass, but he is not the only moral compass.

in my opinion the difference between christian morality and true empathy would be the difference between magnetic north and true north. bible has a lot of good things in it, for instance, dont murder, dont steal, dont covet your neighbors things or wife. but it also has some things in it that are simply archaic, and show a lack of understanding for the workings in the world, and im not just referring to the old testament. i would cite specific passages, but exactly which ones are still accepted and which are not is under some intense debate.

rely on your OWN truth to guide you through life. christianity, god, the bible... these are all templates, and excellent templates for self fulfillment, but thats what they are, templates. it is up to individuals to flesh them out, give them meaning, and elaborate on what is important, and what is white-noise.

i personally, as a possibilianist, prefer to form my own truth about things based on my own perception of logical thought, because i think relying on templates that are hundreds of years old could be... outdated because of how narrowly we understood the world at the time.

The possibilianist avoid commitment and that can be a good thing because creation did not end on the seventh day A creator rests in reason and moves in passion.

A creator rests in reason and moves in passion.

^ how do you know that, Michael?

They don't call it the big bang for nothing do they?

:D good!

^They don't call it the Big Bang for nothing do they.

This was an amazing answer Michael.

Thankyou Edward

It is not wise to stare at the sun longer than necessary , but I have always felt pantheism was not apposed to my faith. A theory is to fact as knowing is to believing , though I believe we become what we believe . The law of gravity is as steadfast as my belief in creation and there is no other place it is logical to assume a creation has no Creator except in imagination

"Reason and Passion

And the priestess spoke again and said: "Speak to us of Reason and Passion."
And he answered saying:
Your soul is oftentimes a battlefield, upon which your reason and your judgment wage war against passion and your appetite.
Would that I could be the peacemaker in your soul, that I might turn the discord and the rivalry of your elements into oneness and melody.
But how shall I, unless you yourselves be also the peacemakers, nay, the lovers of all your elements?
Your reason and your passion are the rudder and the sails of your seafaring soul.
If either your sails or our rudder be broken, you can but toss and drift, or else be held at a standstill in mid-seas.
For reason, ruling alone, is a force confining; and passion, unattended, is a flame that burns to its own destruction.
Therefore let your soul exalt your reason to the height of passion; that it may sing;
And let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes.
I would have you consider your judgment and your appetite even as you would two loved guests in your house.
Surely you would not honour one guest above the other; for he who is more mindful of one loses the love and the faith of both.
Among the hills, when you sit in the cool shade of the white poplars, sharing the peace and serenity of distant fields and meadows - then let your heart say in silence, "God rests in reason."
And when the storm comes, and the mighty wind shakes the forest, and thunder and lightning proclaim the majesty of the sky, - then let your heart say in awe, "God moves in passion."
And since you are a breath In God's sphere, and a leaf in God's forest, you too should rest in reason and move in passion." Gibran

The Sun may not control life, though life without the Sun is imaginary

Getting back on topic.

Does anyone think it's rather, unfair that God can convict you of thought crime?

The Seven Deadly Sins, also known as the Capital Vices or Cardinal Sins, is a classification of objectionable vices that have been used since early Christian times to educate and instruct followers concerning fallen humanity's tendency to sin. The currently recognized version of the list is usually given as wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

I can imagine most crimes begin in the mind, or fits of passion that are merely manifestations of human nature. Most of us have no problem with natures that do not trespass our personal space

Every action begins in the mind, of course. But we should not be guilty of sentence for our thoughts, which are nigh on impossible to fully control.

If I asked you to NOT think of a white horse...the first thing you think of, of course is a white horse. The human mind and it's mechanics are far advanced in their complexity to be constricted by ridiculous archaic rules.

Faith should not constrict reason, yet reason should not constrict faith, I think we agree systems are not perfect yet, but is hope a vice or a virtue? I humbly confess I have impure thoughts which I hope were the least of the sins my Lord died for.

I have never seen any white horse cure an ill.

Way I see it, everything has to have a good dose of reason, even love and faith.

I agree and some of the authorities would have us believe there has been no conflict between faith and reason and the gift of knowlege understanding and wisdom should come naturally, but does it always?I often believe conscience is influenced by
mankinds agenda though I don't think this idea is new to you Kevin.

Faith and reason have sort of a massive conflicting point in the christian context.

reason would state that the universe is causally ordered.

christian faith would deny causality.

Not every other belief system would deny intelligent design though Thomas Aquinas argued that natural things act to achieve the best result, and as they cannot do this without intelligence, an intelligent being must exist, setting the goal and providing direction, and this being is God.