Voting/Commenting : "MARV"

The same name, with a postfix '2' when encourage newbies to retain interest here at PnQ???

Fair enough Bob. Does that mean you would take part and just ask for comments (no vote?)

I admitted I was a lot like rayre words when I first started rating and commenting. I thought that everyone had the same tastes as I did and wanted to everyone to keep striving to be professional . In the genesis of inspiration the creator was content with all being good. Authors are listed according to ratings and to gain the exposure advantage has done little to nothing to gain popularity in most cases. I thought about making the voters explain their votes much the same way the praise comments are handled, but that could put undue stress on moderators. If we require a certain rating we run the risk of not getting honest ratings but many great poems never were highlighted because of strict standards. Overall your suggestion is good rayre words.

Thanks Michael. I do see your reasoning, but I will say I don't assume other authors will share the same tastes as me! Probably because I'm at the "other end of life" lol ! I have (gladly) been aware that people are individuals, for many years. Of course, many may do exactly as you mention, so your statement is defnitely valid.
Regarding not getting honest ratings: that's exactly what the MARV would encourage - ie. authors choice whether to (a) participate (b) would prefer comments/no comments, minimum rated vote.
The idea would be to respect other members
chosen MARV and thereby avoid stress/upset for all? What would increase moderators stress? You mean if one member did not adhere to the author's stated MARV? Wouldn't having it stated place the emphasis on authors and voters to do the right thing, or simply not vote - as now? Relieving stress for mods? Thanks again for your input Michael. Good to meet you by the way. Ray

I'm a bit confused. If we state, for instance, that we only want votes rated above a three, then how is that accurate? How is that fair? I agree with Bob, a 1 means as much as a 5, only it would be best if people were required to explain WHY they rated your poem as they did, similar to explaining WHY you praised a comment, or complained about a PM.

If you state '3 or less' you aren't making it tougher to get a fair rating, you're simply saying "If you want to vote but not offend me (ie. if u don't know me that well perhaps) please don't enter a vote (of 2) As for agreeing with Bob, I do to; the comment would still be, perhaps more important than now.
By the way, you could state "No votes" but just "comments please" This isn't a rule I'm suggesting, just an idea to make EVERYONE (who takes part) to know what the author is after.
After all, whether a newbie or not, an author wants to SHARE their creation but if a newbie doesn't know who you are, they may not vote/comment for fear of unneccesary upset. Those who have no belief in the 1 to 5 rating could just choose not to participate OR state "Comments Only"
It helps others UNDERSTAND what it is you're looking for towards improving, etc?
(This is just an example, for ie. Nik might state no less than 5 will do! And that will secure (as now) a vote of 5 only. It's pretty simple and it isn't changing anything, it's just making the system clearer. Are you still confused or does that answer your query?? Also, I'm only suggesting this idea, and maybe someone will think of a more mutual idea?? And that would be great.

PS: Bob seemed to be interested in Comments. And that could be his personal statement Re:

Comments only please. Constructive or otherwise.

Or whatever. See? You say any vote (1 to 5) doesn't mean anything. I do realise I'm pretty new here and I'm not waving a rebel's banner, but how many member do vote. Lots and lots! Why, because it is simply a way to say "That's how much I like it." But as said b4, if votes don't bother you, a simple MARV listing under your namecould be just to explain the comments you'd like to receive. How's it unfair? Sorry if I'm missing the point here. But that's what a discussion is for. This isn't my baby. It could help us and avoid upsets too.

Great!!!!! :D :D Well done Nano! We had a real scare earlier over your health!
Anyway glad you're okay lol :D

You were said to be really bad. But Nano please I'll PM you in a bit okay? Glad you're ok.

Yay Nano!!!

About the MARV thing... I guess I just think that "newbies" shouldn't be afraid to upset someone with a lower vote. Personally, I don't think we have the right on here to decide how other people are allowed to rate our poems... that's a bit silly, isn't it?

Not to mention, if we do this I think the whole rating system would be overturned... A poet's overall rating would be inaccurate (even though I think this aspect of the site is a bit silly), and people would be even angrier if their "minimum vote" wasn't followed.

I think we should just vote with what you feel is appropriate for the work and leave it at that. Definitely comment. I don't mind having 1's or 2's, so long as I have an explaination behind it. But the same goes for 3's, 4's or 5's. And I think this should be true for everyone, if they genuinely want to improve and not receive meaningless praise all the time.

Not to be mean, Rayre Words, it's great that you're contributing ideas, I love that. But we need to be more interested in the actual reaction to our poetry than what we "want" the reaction to be...

Oh, yeah. Did I not say that? Hmm. I meant to say that, lol. Thanks Nano. :)

Why not make a thread in which people can state they prefer no votes on their work at all and just constructive criticism? So no "great job"comments, or comments which seem lengthy, but when you look closely, are just pasted poem and empty wording underneath, which, in essence, are all pointless.

Any votes given to these poets are then clearly given by those just here to feel "the power of the button!!!!"

It would be far better if Janice would fix things so that voting without commenting would be impossible. Make is so that voting is step two, so commenting alone is possible, but not the other way around...but then Janice would have to become active again..mmmhhhh....likely? ..nope:(

Thanks. That IS what I'm suggesting but with the confirmation of the MARV (or whatever we call it) thread. Thanks for the input and it's positive. If no vote wanted, just comment (remember us newbies like to know who authors are. Some of us are actually agreeing with the idea, some don't. That's discussion. And it's healthy, isn't it??
Others will learn more about you and your creations here and they will have something (MARV) to relate to you by. It could become more of a family here, but we tend to pm our friends/allies - why? Because we know something about them; We feel safe with them. But who are we writing poetry for -just our friends?
For instance, how did you feel when you first joined PnQ ? Every new thing we do can be daunting/confusing. But I still think MARV would widen the interest IF that's what the individual member prefers. Let's be honest. I'm not going to vote for someone who launches out at Mars when I vote lower than they expected, but a stated MARV will allow me to know (with recorded confirmation) that the author is willing to accept a certain minumum rating IF I accompany the vote with a comment (constructive and friendly).
If you DON'T want anyone to rate your poem at all, you'd say so. If you DO just want comments, then they'll know that by the relevant MARV.
Nothing changes. Nothing's any different! It just makes YOUR feelings known and keeps everyone happy.. YES?

Not all people do and some get realy angry when they get less than a five. So, if we had this kind of circle of poets who knew from eachother they want no votes at all and just comments that are honest and constructive then that would really be beneficial to them as a whole. You would know upfront the other is only being helpful, or at least is trying to be.

To be honest if I have to remember who wants comments and votes, just comments, just votes, or I can't vote honestly because they stated their offense is taken under a three, I will just stop commenting on people stuff. I think were complicating things. To say a preference for discussion makes sense, but going into making lists etc, I don't want to go in that and search multiple times a day to see if its okay to do something on a poem posted for the public.

You got it, Nano!!!!!!!!!!! :D

The general comments and votes are most likely popularity contest here and it is rare to see a love poem with a 5 rating because it will be on the front page . All members have a right to rate, but it is obvious that the poem that attracts the most attention is likely to attract more scrutiny

I don't know if it was a glitch but one of mine made the best love poem list and received over ten thousand visits with a 4.0 rating.

Hi Britt. So you agree on the first bit - having a helpful place to check before actually commenting. etc?
Your mention of Not wanting to refer to this forum .... But it takes a second to do so ...and you've done just exactly that by being here.
See what I'm saying? Meant in the nicest way.. :D :D

Yes, I see what you mean, Britt. Maybe a list is not such a good idea, maybe it should be a statement underneath the poem, so you could use it on poems you are truly proud of and want to know for sure if you did good..or not.

The things with votes is that one can NOT vote at all and lateron someone else comes online and adds a low rating, which could leave the poet to think one of the commenters did it. so if you specifically ask for no votes at all, you would know it was not from the commenters.

So maybe add this underneath:

c.c.: yes << c.c. meaning constructive criticism
votes: no

I'm on the forums now, yes. But when I comment, I usually comment a hundred poems a week. I don't want to come into the forums before every comment and double check.

Stating what you prefer, sure. But I can see people getting upset saying they left a preference in the list and someone or all didn't follow it. If you don't want honesty, don't post your poem for all to see. I don't like one liners, so when I get those I don't return the favor. I could care less about votes.

I just think things are getting too complicated. One should always use respect when posting in forums or commenting on poetry. Outside of that, I don't see why we need to add more restrictions.

That's fair enuf. Then you would choose not to take part. That's what it's all about: Choice. Remember it's all just a suggestion. I've set a new thread as Preferences... for use if anyone wants to. If not, what have I lost? Well I'm gone for now. We're all members and it's good to debate.
Last note: Thank you for sharing this thread - As a newbie, I now have far more than just names on the screen. And that for me is a Success!!
I respect all the views shared here and I now have a better idea of who you all are.
Get it?? Using the forum - discussion. Gets us talking even if we disagree on the topic! Good isn't it!! There's a link to what I've suggested in that statement... Best Wishes to You All. Ray

I am in agreement with Britt on this. I don't want to have to check to see what someone prefers in the way of a rating on their work. I can also see an issue in that if I don't check the list, happen to comment and rate a poem of a person whose name is on the list and my rating is not one they find acceptable, they will be offended and then we will have the finger pointing, you didn't follow my wishes. This is getting way to complicated. I for one will continue to comment and rate poems based on my personal opinion, not what the writer thinks I should do.

This is fine and everything, but... I don't think you can expect people to follow it. Practically speaking, searching a thread for someone's voting preferences before every time you comment isn't very sensible. (Even if you do, I agree with Narph that it kind of skews the whole voting system more than it actually is.) Maybe instead of a thread, interested people could post this information on their profiles? That way it's right there, if commenters are really concerned about offending these delicate poets.

-Sibyllene

"To be honest if I have to remember who wants comments and votes, just comments, just votes, or I can't vote honestly because they stated their offense is taken under a three, I will just stop commenting on people stuff. I think were complicating things. " -- Britt

I totally agree.

^ Or just comment and never vote? Would that bother any member/poet? Cause I do that all the time.

I do that a majority of the time. But then we'd never have any poems on the top rated lists... not like it really matters, but I know some think thats helpful to see "good" poetry. -shrugs-

Tell me if its my odd imagination. But I do speculate that if the voting system was deleted, then most members here either won't be writing as much, or they'll be writing more quality poems.

I mean an average writer may not settle for one liner comments like "I know how these feels!" or "You penned it well!". Therefore most comments, I hope, would be more constructive which would eventually make the writer better.

I personally wouldn't keep sending bad quality poems every week if I know I'd be expecting the same criticisms. I'd take my time and write a good quality poem. However, since this site is too generous with voting, most poets aim for the ratings. They keep writing 5minute poems that gets 10 5rated votes. Then sooner or later they enter the real world and get crushed.

I know we cannot change the system because the voting actually "advertises" the site. Without the voting, most writers here would probably leave. I just hope people see beyond the voting system. It keeps our writers mediocre and we actually have potential talents here.

I think most people (who are active on the boards and voice their opinion anyway) don't care about the voting. I personally don't. I wouldn't leave the site if the voting system was done away with, and I don't know of anyone who would.

I think people write at their current ability. Some try harder than others, and some do branch out and try new things and try learning new techniques, styles etc, but for the most part I don't think (at least I hope) people don't post a poem just to see a couple of 5's. If so, they're not serious about writing anyhow in my opinion.

I have no problem with the MARV method. I have ASS and I am now using the KISS method

MARV = Minimal Accepted Rating Vote

ASS =Asperger Syndrome Symptoms

KISS = Keep It Simple&Silly

I personally don't care for votes and rarely do I give them. I find a comment to be far more beneficial then a number. So I stick to the comments and don't vote.

I agree with Britt and Jane on how it's a bit of a pain. When you post your poems on here you are accepting that your poems are going to be critiqued and commented, and on the off chance voted on. If voting and comments are not your style then perhaps an online Journal or even Deviant art where you can opt out of 'comments'. Either way you as the user has a decision on whether you'd like to get feedback or not. And that feedback will be according to each commenter discretion and how they'd like to comment, not the author.

When you start telling people how to critique your work it becomes a pain in the arse. I think a better solution then for every single person to come here before they comment is:

If you don't want critiques, votes or general comments. Either move on and omit the comment you don't like or don't post your poems.

But you can't really tell someone if you leave a 1 or 5 you NEED to leave a comment on why. Or to leave a more indepth break down of your poem through their eyes.

Truth is as I said before not everyone can articulate the proper things to critique on a poem. Some people are far more technical while others aren't. That is something each individual author has to come to terms with. To learn how to receive 'critiques' in a variety of ways is an asset and broadens your horizons. It opens your eyes to the way other people view your work be it simplistic "wow this is amazing" or complex. ""Line 1" this stood out to me and created such a visually appealing scene."

I can bet you the people who leave the "wow this is amazing." are those who perhaps aren't as talented as the person they just commented on. More often then not there is a correlation between the comments left and the person who left them. All you have to do is go to their profile and see the work they produce. Then you have to ask yourself are they really at a level to critique your work when your 10 steps ahead of them in terms of how well you write? Probably not, so I'd take those one liners as those who look up to how you've honed your talents. "It's awesome." because to them it is. They literally can't explain anything other than the initial impact the poem gave them.

I believe rayre words had the right idea and made his point that holding interest is easier said than done
I never trust a critic that stereotypes while they hide behind a phony screen name. If any of us collected the royalties that anon would make PnQ would be more like who wants to be a millionaire than family feud .

Who are you referring to Michael? (in terms of the phony screen name and stereotyping?)

Some of the critiques that are hard hitting do inspire poets to try harder, but I have compared them to people who say no one that submits a poem on this site should get above a three . I know why no one in their right mind would use their real name. I never claimed to be in my right mind. When I find my right mind I will let you know

Maybe the adults have taken over the members message in the same way the teen's took over the chat room and I sometimes wonder if many accounts are for the purpose of the PMS

Ray was one of the few newbies, but I am not sure we have not run him off.

Micheal as you may well know we can give our opinion on this matter. I think hearing others opinions that differ from your own is a good thing. A few agreed with what he said while others didn't. I think it was great of him to at least bring the topic up. But I don't see the purpose in it.

However I don't vote because how can I truly say who is and who doesn't deserve a 1-5? What I can do is give my opinion (comment) on their poem. But rating? It's not for me. Not because people don't deserve certain numbers but what those numbers mean personally to me. 5 is for the people who should publish and pursue a career in Poetry. 4 is for the getting there poets. 3 and 2 people like me. It's a hobby but nothing more or less.
But you see how I interpret the numbers? Everyone interprets them differently which is a huge reason why I stay away from them and stick to comments.

Now because I'm a bit confused with some of your references to 'real names' I hope you aren't referring to me being a phony. I'm anything but and anyone on this site who actually knows me knows I'm no phony. If you didn't mean that then I have to ask who exactly are you referring to? I don't use my real name for personal reasons. I used to but it has nothing to do with the site and far more to do with my personal life. So just thought I'd throw that out there.

I don't think we've run Ray off. Or at least opinions shouldn't. We're all here to grow, to learn and to take pleasure in the craft. We know by signing up for this site that our work will be critiqued. It's at the discretion of the author if they'd like to submit or not. Many explained why this suggestion was flawed. 1.Skewed ratings 2.It's a pain to come on here and check what each poets preference is. If I have to start doing that I'll just become a reader and stop commenting. 3. This is a poetry site where comments are allowed and aren't an option to be turned off. Authors need to be sure they want their work on the site before the hit submit.

Newbies are signing up all the time. I know when I was one I loved getting critiques. So I think it has very little to do with how new someone is to a community. Over how well they take criticism.

I am a firm believer in anonymity and I respect your decision to use a nom de plume . Pen names have been used for centuries. I believe you have a lot in common with a former mod that said "That would be great if we would have someone, who is actually qualified to mold our minds and if we would have a member who would try to learn from the critique and not being offended and hurt by the truth.
Because don't forget truth is a cold-hearted bitch with a 14-inch strap-on.."

There are three roles that everyone has to play in communicating there perception of the truth. One is a persecutor another is a savior and yet another is a victim. If I made you feel like a victim when I said people who hide behind phony names can you imagine how I examined my conscience when someone implied that any conformity to the rules and guidelines of this sites is a form of ass kissing. Show me someone that claims never to have had their expression moderated and I will show you a person in denial. I do admire anyone with the intestinal fortitude to share "Iron Clad Lessons."
I know that many will see this as an attempt to toot your horn but I believe you have very good intentions when you add your fuel to a healthy debate. I am yet uncertain whether any reason or rhyme is allowed in the members message forum . I can't even apologize here without fearing suspension. Am I the only one that believes we could progress farther if we were allowed to work together rather than to be herded like sheep?

http://youtu.be/hZl3gGV4H6c

It seems to me that many on the site find intrinsic satisfaction in the voting system. It is true that many people also appear to give and expect only fives. Perhaps the age of grade inflation has permeated society too far. Nonetheless, IMHO, to formalize this attitude goes too far.
I say let the reviewer retain full discretion.

I agree with your wisdom Larry. If the good Lord is satisfied with claiming His Light is just good in hindsight I should be grateful for any rating . I am not a child of a lesser God, but a lesser child of an awesome God

I'd say this captures me quite well " a cold-hearted bitch with a 14-inch strap-on.." ;)

I remember you were one of the first people to comment on my poem. A long long time ago. (Iron Clad Lessons that is)

Let me say though that the name I go by now 'Liquid' is so some individuals can't search me out. One person is the same person who I wrote 'Iron Clad Lessons' about... I'm known to many, but only this community truly sees my poetry side. And truly gets a glimpse at the innards rather then rock and ice. It's a place where I can be free without judgment yet be truthful about my past. I suppose that's why there's this ebb and flow of leaving yet returning. Part of my own spiritual healing came from this very place. It's hard for me to leave it completely.

Sorry I went off on a tangent.

Never be sorry for expressing yourself on a poetry site It the only way we have of knowing you ie the data you provide.

I also remember being very upset that Kevin ask you not to post that poem in a thread that Bob had started . The poem was so right on topic that I felt bad for the times I referred to my on poems that I thoght made a positive contribution to the discussion. I want to live in the present but see sharing past emotional pain as a very brave thig to do and not tooting your own horn in the urban sense. The drama that the next thread only proved what Bob and I agree with that the dream of a level field is just that

I believe rayre words and the poetess will be back she reminds me of a poetess of days past

http://youtu.be/yKSnKbK_TJA

http://youtu.be/M5yQ8JJ8R9E

I'd rather see everyone willingly to be polite but also speak their mind about the poetry.. if you like.. what you think the poet could do better on.. stuff like that..