Weekly Contest Stats / Discussion

Hello PnQers! As some of you might already know, we have been keeping track of Weekly Contest results in a thread in the Mod room. We wanted the data partly for curiosity, partly for posterity, and partly to make sure that things seem fair.

For one aspect of our stats, we were interested to see how many distinct individual poets have graced the front page of our lovely site. Here's the list I have, from March til now. (It's possible that there are some errors or omissions, but we tried to keep pretty good track. I'm a liberal arts girl, here. If you know of someone who needs to be added, let me know!)

Gramma Concept
Melpomene******
Karla
Larry Chamberlin
Courageous Dreamer*
Kiko ***
Beautiful Chaos
zrabea jadallah
silvershoes***
Ms Sunshine***
Novalyn Grace*
The Princess**
Sibyllene**
Thomas***
Lady Mer Divinity
Melissa*
The Prince*
Narphangu******
The Poetess*
Yakzzz (Yaki Love?)**
Colm
TerryB
Meena Krish
Lonely Rider
Thomas Pender
Fat Giraffe
Britt
slighte*
Hellon aka Miss Take
Mera Luna*
Mel*

Members with stars have won one additional time per each star. (On that note, holy cow, Melpomene and Narphangu!)

That is 31 distinct member wins out of a possible (approximately) 72 slots (24 weeks, three places per week. One week there was that fluke with the site being down, however). I wanted to post this up as a congratulations to those winners. (Fun note: on average, a winner on this site will win slightly over 2 times ; ] ) I also like the variety of names on there. Some of those people are well known, but there are several that I don't see around the forums much, so it's good that those writers are also getting represented.

I guess it's also a challenge to KEEP seeking out those writers who are actively submitting poems, even if they're not chatty on the forums. There are thousands upon thousands of poets in this place, many of whom are probably writing regularly. So, while we may have the cream up the crop in that list up there, I bet we can find even more new favorites.

NEXT TOPIC!

This is something we need YOUR input on. Several months ago, resulting from a large discussion, we altered the rules of the weekly contest so that the winners were chosen based purely off the poem, without being affected by the person who wrote the poem, nor how frequently they had won. For a while, the mods had been casting votes to discourage someone winning two weeks in a row, but this method was overturned and has not been taking place since.

As it stands now, the only thing that makes a poem ineligible to win is if it has won before. Do you feel like this new method has been effective? Is there enough variety in the wins? Would you like to keep it this way? It's been a few months, so we're now reopening this for discussion. The original threads can be seen here:

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=127554

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=127565

On a related topic, we have had 15 contest judges since September, rotated in and out at various times. Our two large "shifts" occurred from SEP 2010 - FEB 2011, and MAR 2011 - AUG 2011. Our SEP 2011 - FEB 2011 shift will be beginning soon.

So, on this topic, do you feel that the judging system has been fair and effective?

Overall, HOW DO YOU ALL FEEL ABOUT THE SITE CONTEST?

I like the idea that the poem wins, regardless of the poet or how often they've won..as long as its not the same poem winning.

Congrats all winners, Narph and Mel you guys are on fire!

I think its been fair, however I hope to see the judges get Joe the information before time is up (you don't have to vote only Sunday, right?). Unfortunately I've been getting a lot of complaints in PM about that, and the inconsistency. I ask they send their complaints to a mod, so hopefully they e forwarded those complaints on!

Britt, people come to you because when you were a mod you got things done like nobody's business, and you are also an easy person to come to with problems... however, if someone wants an issue only a mod can fix to get fixed, they need to take that issue to a mod :) Britt can't help you, and it shouldn't be her burden to bare.
Or is it bear?

Lions and Tigers and Britts, Oh my.

I don't see much wrong with the contest... I sorta think the judge's shifts are too long, and I think rotating judges more often could provide a more varied winners list, but beyond that, fresh blood is really in the hands of the nominators, isn't it? If they don't read new work and actually go through the process of getting it on the list, then the list will stay the same.

Annnd.
I can't think of anything else to contribute.
Over 'n out.

Sib :)
Fat giraffe and zrabea Jadallah. Are both the same person dear :)
And from a flesh bloods point of view I fall in love with the weekly winners all the time, :)
Cheers

I really think it can't be more fair:P, like we are the people nominating the poems we think are worth it, and obviously all of them are worth the front page, some poems are better than other poems, and its impossible that all the judges are biased and in love with the winners, so who ever the winner(s) is, we chose in the 1st place and they picked what they see are the top 3 between the rest of the poems, and honestly for me each poem that gets one nomination is a winner cause it impressed someone enough to vote for it...

in short, personally I am very satisfied with the picks, and with the way things are going for the weekly contest.

Definitely like the idea that any poem can win, any week, regardless of the poet's winning frequency.

I would like to raise something here too. I believe that every mod has voting power for the contest. How do you all feel about the mods' participation in the judging process? At the moment, it is generally left completely up to the judges. This is ideal. However, I think that a mod or two could be in charge of surveying the judges' votes at the end of every week. This is for a couple of reasons:

1) Not all judges may vote every week, for whatever reason. Even if they don't get around to commenting, each judge should at least vote. Otherwise, the contest can be totally skewed and inconsistent. A mod could count the votes and cast there own if there are less votes than there should be. I realise this also makes things inconsistent, but it is still slightly fairer to always ensure that five different minds have gone into the judging process.

2) If a judge is unable to vote on a poem because they have already voted on it in the past week, they should be able to hand their vote to the mod to execute at the end of the week. (A judge usually votes at the end of the week, which may include newly-nominated poems. The new poems then make it to the second week, however the judge can no longer vote on them if they've already voted on them in the last week. A judge should be able to vote on the best winning poems from the week's given selection, no matter if they've already voted on them.)

What say you? I'm not sure either way.

"Sib :)
Fat giraffe and zrabea Jadallah. Are both the same person dear :)
And from a flesh bloods point of view I fall in love with the weekly winners all the time, :)
Cheers"

Thank you! Sorry about that. It's things like screenname changes that are hard to keep track of. I'll fix that in a bit.

Abby:

1. Maybe something we could do about this is set a final judge's voting time limit a set amount of hours before the winners are automatically put up. For example, maybe judge's votes would have to be in 12 (or 24, or however many) hours before the winners are posted. That would maybe give mods time to say "ok, we are one set of votes short, so now I will vote." As it is now, if a judge is unable to vote for some reason, we might not always know until it's too late to vote.

2. I just put this in a list of requests for Janis and Dainz about a week ago. It's on the "essentials" list!

Abby, that's how things have gone though, at least when I ran the contest. I think whoever is in charge should send the judges reminders if they haven't heard anything, and should be readily available to vote for a poem if need be, or have a mod vote for a poem.

I think mods should be judges if they want and are nominated, mmyep.

I dunno. I guess my feelings would be that if the mods are responsible for how judging / the contest is run, we should keep ourselves out of the actual judging. Separation of power, or something. (The judges clearly being the judicial branch, mmmm?)

"Abby, that's how things have gone though, at least when I ran the contest. I think whoever is in charge should send the judges reminders if they haven't heard anything, and should be readily available to vote for a poem if need be, or have a mod vote for a poem."

That's a good point. Things have been a bit shaky lately as far as who is running the contest on which particular week. I'm sure when it settles down with Joe, we'll come up with a more consistent system.

The contest is good actually.

And weekly is better than monthly..

BUT I have one suggestion, for removing this "being-biased" feeling, I say

- The Contest Nominations page should only be viewed by the mods.

- The mods then forward all the nominated poems (and I say the poets' names should be hidden) to each judge.

- Judges don't get to choose their PERSONAL BEST three poems. They vote through a panel (the mods decide it) (eg: Content 50%...).

-Judges then forward all the poems to the mods.

- The poems that receive the highest points WIN!

------Personally, I think this is the best way!----------

The mods then forward all the nominated poems (and I say the poets' names should be hidden) to each judge.

^You can still find the poems on the site, so I don't think that'd work?

I personally don't really have any issues with how things are being ran right now. However, I'd have to agree that maybe judges should be rotated a bit more. Six months is quite a long time, and like someone said it may mix up the winners a bit more, as a bunch of different people will be able to judge. Although, few seem to accept the nominations and are able to take on this task, soo maybe sticking to six months does work best? Also the time limit on when to get votes/comments in should be put into effect to ensure that votes/comments are for sure ready for the thread on Monday's. It seems lately there are always votes and comments missing when the thread goes up.

Abed, what you are saying is like a site contest, not the weekly contest, dear.

In my opinion, things aren't fair enough (not because I don't win lol) but I guess there are lots of members who vote for their friends and only for their friends, right?

I'm not talking about the judges, I'm talking about the nominators, and yes, I must say things are not fair when it comes to the nominations thing, I suggest that all the nominated poems (no matter how many nominations each poem has) should be taken into consideration.

I won't say other than this, I'll keep my mouth sealed shut, so no one will bite me!

Cheers

Being a judge is hard work and to some degree, an ungrateful job. There will always be people who feel their poem should have won. I didn't allow my personal feelings for people I care for affect my voting and do hope and think it is the same for all other past/ current/ future judges.

Once a poem is on the contest page, it is eligible for a win, the amount of votes it has is irrelevant( at least it was to me!). But, in order to be able to win, a poem has to be nominated, so to those who care for this site and can find the time and are willing to make the effort: go out there and read new work and dare to be the discoverer of new talent!

Ingrid, are you saying that every nominated poem has the same opportunity to win? I disagree, most of the poems which have one nomination are brought down the list and they never win.

This site, let me say, is like my high school, if you are cool and popular, you win, if you're not, no one would behold ya! :)

I won twice and it's enough for me, I love to win but I'm not talking about ME, I'm talking about lots of members here who are really done wrong!

I think its right that the best poems win, regardless of who writes them. This way it also makes it a little more rewarding if and when you do win, because you know your poem deserved it. I think the judges have done a good job recently and as far as I know, they consider all nominated poems. For example this week I think one of the poems only had one nomination and it won, deservedly so.

Everybody has a responsibility to nominate worthy poems, and to some degree search for new talent. Poems should be nominated, not poets, but I think poems usually are nominated. Some poets do get nominated again and again, but that is mainly because they write good poems, and active nominators are familiar with their work. Just because they may have won before doesnt make their poems any better or worse, any more elligible or illegible for the next contest.

For example this week I think one of the poems only had one nomination and it won, deservedly so.

^^
Not always, Colm, there are poets, like gIrL and Lady Nik write AMAZING pieces, and they're worth a win, at least once or twice, they have really good poems, but whenever they are nominated, they are brought down the list and they don't win.

Isn't that right?

I think that when the judges vote for a poem it moves up towards the top of the nominations list, and I think possibly the number of nominations might have a bearing on it too. But it doesnt really change the fact that once it is nominated the judges consider it and it has a chance to win.

I don't know, I've never been a judge before, but once I'll be a judge, I won't see how many nominations each piece has, but I'll read the piece itself without looking at the name of the poet, and without looking at the nominations, I'd give my vote regarding the piece, not the poet or his/her friends nominations.

Ok, another issue, what if 4 poems are worth a win, like what happened once with Yakzzz? there is no place for the forth winning, how would the judges decide which one of the poems are the one without the mark "WIN" beside it??

In that case, Nano, if the judges have all gotten their votes in with a reasonable amount of time (I like the 12 hour notice thing), maybe the mods could vote between the winners...?

I've never judged, so I don't know, but I think the amount of nominations a poem gets doesn't really affect it that much... I've seen poems at the top of the list with a ton of nominations not even receive an HM. My understanding is, once it's on the list, it's in the judges hands.

There isn't a limit to how many poems can be nominated, is there? I know I had a bunch nominated last week, but two of them disappeared mid-week, although they've reappeared now. It doesn't really matter, but I'm curious about how that happens, if anyone knows.

^That is odd, Narph. My guess would be that it could be because of the fact that some of the poems towards the bottom of the page get "pushed" over onto a mysterious "next" page that doesn't actually exist. It's a big problem, and it's near the top of the list for things we want the admins to fix. If the poems were posted within the last two weeks, though, I could see them showing up again as some of the older poems have gotten cleared out for the week.

As far as number of nominations affecting a win, I don't think that happens. A poem can win with as little as one nomination. Once they are on the nominations board, they should all be equal in the eyes of the judges. The couple of times I've had to vote, I have hardly noticed the nominations. If anything, it could be that there is a loose (not causation, but) correlation between number of noms and a win. In some cases, if so many people have cared to nominate a poem, it could be a good indication that the poem is well written, and the judges might think so too. But they are judging on the poem, and they are the ones who get to kind of decide what "deserves" a win.

Ingrid, are you saying that every nominated poem has the same opportunity to win? I disagree, most of the poems which have one nomination are brought down the list and they never win.

^^

Yes, that is what I am saying. When I was a judge, I took the time to read all poems in the contest room one by one, starting from the bottom of the page. It really didn't matter to me how many people had nominated a poem, because sometimes it would be a very popular poet and his/ her work not that special in my eyes. I did look at who nominated a poem if it was just one person nominating, because there are a few on this site with a good eye for talent. They really read a lot and spot new talent as they go. A certain lady from Oz is one of them, when I see her nominating a poem, I know the poem is worth reading, even before I open the page.

I have to admit I don't have much time nowadays to really read a lot..I often read favorite poets and poems in the contest room..I wish I had more time!

Thank you, Sibs, for the answer!

And yeah, I am pretty certain that the last week I have nominated a poem written by Nana, but it didn't show up there and it vanished the next week, so my nomination was wasted and her poem wasn't able to be nominated again.

About this fact that the more a poem gets nominations, the more it has the opportunity to win is, yes, unfair, because we all know that sometimes members nominate for their friends, and some in the comunity have lots of friends over here, so that they win every week??

Ingrid, I'm sure you were a good fair judge, but I am really disappointed that some people are done wrong and others are having too much credit.

Ya Nano I had no idea how Last Wish vanished LOL
but however trust me it's not about being cool and popular, show me one poem that was not good enough for the front page ?

They are all good enough, its the judges who see what poems are best to be picked..some people won and I've never heard of them before, surely they did not win a lot, but no one nominated poems by them again,not the point, but everyone got the chance to win, and I believe the judges have their own taste, and we have ours, what I see good, you see bad, perhaps what you see great, judges think is nothing more than fair, in comparison to other poems, whether its at the bottom of the page or at the top of it, as an old judge I can assure you, it does not matter. At all..

And I know we all can't deny that all the poems winning each single week are Excellent, which makes arguing the reason behind these choices a bit hard.

As for nominating poems for friends, in my club I make each week a thread where I ask the seniors to find good poems of their choice and share the links with us, and we pick what we see is better, I share links for poems I see amazing, not only for members in my club, I've actually linked Lostlove aka Connie, sib, jane, brit, the poetess, and a variety of different members, sometimes I make special requests for poems I see are really worth the front page, and I assure my members to use their THREE votes...

I think its going fair...we're all workin on it :) and we are all a huge part of it..not only the judges

edit: but i do get what you mean, i know its hard to give credit for everyone...with only 3 picks..i understand what u meant

"About this fact that the more a poem gets nominations, the more it has the opportunity to win is, yes, unfair, because we all know that sometimes members nominate for their friends, and some in the comunity have lots of friends over here, so that they win every week??"

This would be bad if it happened, but number of nominations do not influence the judging. I was just saying that, in some cases, a better poem might happen to have a lot of nominations because it is good. And if it's good, the judges might pick it. But that is the only relationship - the number of nominations are irrelevant.

Your "Last Wish" is gonnnneeeeee..... :O
I wanted it to be nominated! :/

show me one poem that was not good enough for the front page ?

^^^
this is a hard question, and it will cause LOTS of drama here, so I won't answer it though I do have the answer...

and Nanoush, if it is a matter of tastes, then why the kind 'some' members like always wins, and what WE like doesn't? it is a bit unfair, you can't deny. why does what I see great never win? ain't I a member of this site? there are lots of members like me.

In my opinion, gIrL, Lady Nik and Tara-Kay are sometimes worth winning but they are done wrong.

Sibs, believe me, it happens sometimes. But sadly no one takes my opinion into consideration...

Hahah ok, can you pm me ? I really want to take things from your side into my consideration :) send me them through pms

I think your opinions should definitely be considered, Poetess.

There are certainly poems that I think should win, but don't. If judging was all up to me, for example, I'd see abby win something for every poem she writes. But I guess that's the trade-off when we put our trust in judges. We are trusting that they are doing their best and voting for the things that, to them, are the best poems of the week. We are the ones who voted to elect the judges in the first place. As someone said in one of those earlier threads, I think the best we can do is to make sure the -system- is fair. I'm sure there isn't a week that goes by where every single person is 100% satisfied with all the wins... but that's just how the cookie crumbles, as they say in my neck of the woods.

So, things will stay the way they are now, and nothing will change?

Anyway, if you see that it is a right thing to do, then don't listen to me, in the end of the day, it is not my site and I can't change it the way I want to, but I've been asked to tell the truth and I hope that didn't throw people away from me, not my intention to cause drama, I just want to say my opinion.

Lol Nano come on, you and we? who do you mean by we?
their countless members here...doesn't mean their opinion doesn't count if their wishes did not come true..its impossible to satisfy everyone's taste with only 3 picks, I want the 4 last poems by Sib to win! and britts last piece! i want your " I am weird" poem to win, and I want Maple Leaves of tomorrow by Larry to win..

It's hard..most of the poems written lately are worth winning, I love all my poems, I am not saying I think they are great, I just love my work cause ALL my work is personal and out of true emotions, and its enough for me to give my own self credit for my emotions... you do not need a win tag to know that your work is appreciated...all poetry is just good enough, don't let it get to you! I am sure with time you will change your mind

Ughhh Nana you know that I love to win, but believe me in this thread, I wasn't talking about myself AT ALL. I even named few members poems that I think they deserve a win but they never did! and what makes me angry is when they even don't get an HM....the numbers of HM's isn't limited, right???

I know I feel frustrated when I write something out of my emotions and no one appreciates it...but it hurts more when people win each week, while I never did before...:/

I don't know...

ANyway, you all can forget what I said, I don't want to be the bad "jealous" guy. :P

Have a good day, y'all! :)

Lol no body will think you're a bad jealous guy, all grown ups :) so don't worry...
and well you know you made a good point regarding the H'm

the H'ms are limited actually, they are poems that were voted to, but didn't receive enough votes to win, like sometimes the difference between an Hm and a front page poem is 4 points..
you must be a judge to understand 100 % what I mean.

But it brings another idea up, I suggested before that all judges should give a short comment on all the poems, why they voted for this and why they left this unvoted to..bla bla like a quick review, which I used to do as i remember, but due to their personal life, and since everyone is busy at times it was a bit very hard to comment all the nominated poems..

I suggested before that all judges should give a short comment about all the poems, why they voted for this and why they left this unvoted to.

^^^
That is really useful, maybe a writer would at least know why his/her poem didn't win...

I honestly think all these problems could be solved with a quicker judges rotation. I don't think it would be that hard to organize, after all, with an active list of nominations, the mods could probably throw together a new set of three poets (possibly with rather different styles?) every month or two... or even chart it out ahead of time, send out messages to verify members are willing to judge, for example, in December, and then send reminders out right before the month starts to make sure no one misses. If someone is unable, it's no harder than using a substitute judge is it?

I bet members would be more willing to take on the load of judging if they didn't have to commit for such a long period of time. Not only that, but new judges come with new perspectives, favorite styles, and (maybe most importantly?) new critiques and comments for the winner's thread.

^^^can't agree more on this. Perfect idea, Narphi. :)

I'd be open to seeing what other mods and members think of that idea. I know it was brought up earlier somewhere, but I do think it would take some of the load off. Maybe a 3 month rotation would be more manageable... some people don't always know what their schedules are going to be like half a year away.

Yes I agree as well, esp about the different style point!
I think it would satisfy most of the members!

Thank you, Sibby, for being understanding like that! I would love to see the others mods and members agreeing on this. :)

I don't know about three months Sibs... I'd say two month shifts? People can produce a lot of work over that period of time, and eight weeks means helping to choose twenty-four winning poems, right? I think that's probably enough before a switch, right? Personally, I can imagine planning to do something for two months, but three is pushing the boundaries of my scheduling.

Two months? But how would they choose the judges every two months? will we be making a thread like this, every two months?? :/ three months seem better, right?