Should there be a change in how Judges score on the Weekly conte

Sibs, I mentioned something about 1-5 point voting in my first post on this thread I think if you wanted to give it a quick read

"I definitely agree with this. Like, right now, we have moderators and then "super mods," with even more powers. If we could stratify the judges like that (so the contest runner and mods could see the votes) that would be a big step, I think."

Forgive a foolish question. If I saved threads from the "super mods" before they were "super mods", are they worth any money? I have an early comic from "Superman" and it's worth quite a lot..
Yes, I admit I'm mad. If that is a new rule, then I broke it...forgive me???

I like the idea of smaller points, even if the judges picked their top five and voted a 1-5. I think if they have 1-5 on three poems, you may find some issues with people complaining about a judge giving a 5,4, 1, and think why bother voting if it was a 1.

I like the used that judges wouldn't be able to see what points the poems have (and if they wouldn't move up on the list), and it he hidden. It is easy to be stuck between two poems and vote on the poem that already has points rather than the one that had none. It should be based off the best to your opinion, not what someone else did.

Haha, so you did, Colm. I must be losing my mind here. I did read it a while ago, but it got wiped from my mind after reading through everything else. Tomorrow I will try to list the different proposed options for any newcomers to the thread.

Rob - Some experts would argue that a "supermod" before the "super" is lacking in the inherent superiority that makes them interesting at all. Others, though, (mostly those who have collected from a young age) will always find joy in those early "origin" stories. I'd say you could fetch $50 a thread, in the right venue.

Edit:

"I like the idea of smaller points, even if the judges picked their top five and voted a 1-5. I think if they have 1-5 on three poems, you may find some issues with people complaining about a judge giving a 5,4, 1, and think why bother voting if it was a 1."

I thought about that too. But then I thought, well, it's kind of like giving a poem a 4. You aren't really giving it a 1 out of 5, like you aren't really giving it a 4 out of 10. You're still saying that it's more worthy than the other poems, even if there is more of a space between it and your top picks. Yeah? Maybe. Maybe I need to go to bed. The number, the numbers!

"Rob - Some experts would argue that a "supermod" before the "super" is lacking in the inherent superiority that makes them interesting at all. Others, though, (mostly those who have collected from a young age) will always find joy in those early "origin" stories. I'd say you could fetch $50 a thread, in the right venue."

I do love a woman with such an open mind, but dare say you well know that 50 a thread could get much more even in the wrong venue from the right mod...kisses and tight hugs to all of you!

Lol you guys are funny.

Sib I get what you mean. I'm trying to think ahead to the complaints and eliminate it, lol.

Great discussion.

Blocking the view of other judges' cast points is the only thing in here that makes for a positive improvement. Each judge should still be able to view his/her own cast votes for verification.

4, 7 & 10 versus 1 - 5:
You'd stil have ties of the nature we now have and add additional ties of a new type. With the current system any combination of votes by two or more judges for two poems will result in different totals unless the same values are cast for each poem. [eg: 4 vs 7 vs 10 vs 4+7 vs 4+10 vs 7+10 vs 4+7+10]. With sequential values you introduce additive ties. [eg: 1+2=3; 1+3=2+2=4; 1+4=2+3=5; 1+5=2+4=1+2+3; 3+4=2+5 etc].

Comments on each of only three votes cast means every voted poem gets a comment (even HMs). Allowing lower votes without comment could cause a front page poem to receive no comments at all. If everyone votes 5 & 4 & 3 for different poems but one poem receives three votes at 2 each, it becomes front page but none of the cast votes carries a comment.

Blocking the view of other judge's votes should be done now. Contest manager & mods should be excepted.

LARRY:
Blocking the view of other judges' cast points is the only thing in here that makes for a positive improvement. Each judge should still be able to view his/her own cast votes for verification.

^ Still, anyone can know if a poem is voted by a judge; It just climbs the top of the list (eg. if it has two nominations and was voted, it will surpass a poem which has three nominations and is not voted) .... so I'm saying, the poems on the nominations list shouldn't be in the order of diminishing nominations number.

I'm sorry LP...I don't understand what you are saying here....can you explain a little more for us halfwits..well this halfwit anyway :)

Concealing judges votes is a great idea.

I believe LP is saying that once a poem has a vote casted on it by one of the judges it moves to the top of the nominated poems list. Therefore even if we conceal the points it'd still be obvious because the poems would shift to the top once a judge had voted.

I can't verify if this is the case anymore. When I was a judge I do recall poems shifting upwards once votes were made but I haven't noticed this since the list updated to show all of the poems on the one page, then again I hadn't paid much attention. Perhaps it's something we can keep an eye on over the next week.

Edit: Hellon you need to stop missing the Sunday Sesh, no point in being in Aus without it lol

That still happens, Mel. I noticed poems jumping up the board this past week, presumably due to judges' votes.

Thanks for the explaination Mel...I never really paid such close attention...possibly because I'm generally asleep when the new page is updated but...this makes me now wonder...even if the votes are concealed didn't I read that all judges are supposed to have their votes in on a Sunday so...if you were a judge for example..your vote would be cast before the others so...anyone watching that closely would know a judge had voted on it...is this correct?

Had thi Monday Shesh this weel Mel hick...hick LOL!

Thanks for that Narph.

With this information LP is right, while concealing judges casted votes is a great idea it still could be problematic with regards to poems shifting up the list. When asking Janis to change/update this we would have to mention the fact the poems tend to order themselves based on votes given by judges and hopefully he'll be able to change this as well.

Correct Hellon. I'm also not usually awake when the page updates unless I'm having the Sunday Sesh on a Monday in the 1am time slot.

^ Yes, correct. (Hellon)
and Mel is right.

For example, when Sibs won for two poems I knew that one of them will win because it jumped to the top.. that's how it goes. So, not letting the poems appear in the order of diminishing nominations number (and consequently, judges votes number) will correct that thing.

I'm sorry...I'm still not understanding this...forgive me and....it's Tuesday over here so the Monday Sesh is long over haha!!! You say you knew one of Sibs poems would win because it jumped to the top but...surely that would need a vote from more than one judge for it to be a confirmed winner?

Larry: You are very right, voting on all poems can result in a winner without a comment. I did not think of this issue before, but now that you point it out, it will certainly complicate matters, e.g.

3+3+3+3+3=15
3+2+3+2+3=13
2+3+2+3+2=12

and so on....can still be winners, without a single comment on them, if different judges cast their 5/s and 4's on all different poems, so none of the poems had the required number of 5's or 4's, to beat the above combinations.

So, I guess it is not a mathematically viable option at all. So much for a brainchild, that will not take off the ground! Should have consulted a statistician before suggesting. I wish there was a better way of scoring to resolve the issue, and the ties before leaving it to a lotto playing computer.

But on the other hand what about the last 2 suggestions, what is your opinion?

I think it had one nomination, and it surpassed not just the poems of two nominations, but three.... so technically, you can say it will win... percentage about 90%. The other 10% is it will get an HM.

* Considering this week, it can go like this, too:

- 7 Checkpoints (it was on top, for it had like 8 nominations) -- it didn't get voted on, but it stayed on top because it had the most nominations.

- The Kween of Hearts (it was the second top, and when it was voted, it remained the second) -- it won.

- Shape Shifter of Emotions (it was like the 7th or 8th before voting, and when it was voted, it climbed to the 4th or 5th...) -- it won.

----- analysis of who will gonna win is not accurate. It can lead you to a 60% factual thing.

Jeez....you guys should be politicials....for you know who to confuse a person haha!!!...I can't remember how many nominations both of Sib's poems had that week but I do remember she had the potential to take off a hat trick in that same week with her poem Thistle which...the site seemed to eliminate although it did have the same amount of votes as Awash but...someone (maybe two judges voted it) but...it would seem it didn't make any movement on the nominations list for some reason?

Haha.. no politics.

It's just that I noticed so many things when I was a judge.

If it didn't move then it was voted on and it also has like 3+ nominations... ? It depends..

"2) There should be at least a 2-3 line comment to justify the nomination. "

--- I like this suggestion. Why? Because that shows why the reader nominated it and it not only helps the judges but also the poet. How? Well, if I see comment on the specific things that the reader liked then that motivates me to continue writing and into improving my writing.
Also that shows that the one that nominated the poem read it and thus no one can think is just for favoritism.
 

Also how hard is it to leave a short comment saying why they are nominate it. To leave  2-3 lines as a comment, does that take too much time? After that they can come back later and leave a well thought up comment.

"2) There should be at least a 2-3 line comment to justify the nomination

^^^

I agree...the top poem at the moment has 4 nominations but not a single comment on it!...will they come back later to comment..maybe now that they are in the limelight but...usually no..

and...just look at the nominations this week and...who's been nominating them...friends who are friends (every week now...boring) club members....boring..some clubs have a policy that you cannot post a poem unless you comment/vote on the previous two poems posted by a club member...some encourage you to nominate before you post...some tell you how easy it is to become a senior member so that you can nominate....so don't tell me this site isn't loaded in the wrong way...Good luck A Lost Soul....you're pushing an elephant up a hill right now...been there done than now...I DGAF.

I dont agree with having to comment on a poem before nominating it for a few reasons. First, 80% of comments will end up being 'I love this poem, the imagary is good' just to say it is commented. If the problem is friends nominating friends, I dont think having to comment 2-3 generic lines will stop this. Second, it could decrease participation. People mightnt genuinely have time to comment. I often nominate poems without commenting, by nominating them I am saying I think they should win or be seriously considered. I shouldnt have to explain this in a comment, its clear by the act of nominating. Thirdly, how would it be policed? The mods have enough to be doing and what happens if somebody nominates without a comment, will they be warned? I could see hassle down the line. I dont see the whole idea as being feasible, even though it may seem good in an ideal world.

Some people are really over- complicating thiings... and over thinking too...hm.

Ummmm.... Hellon has a point. ...
Yes, the poem has 4 nominations (or 3.. ill check) and not a single comment... I noticed that from 4 days. And still, no comments.

And the idea of just nominating club poems is so right! I see 3/4 of nominations are for club poems. I think it's farce.......................

Does the fact that it has no comments make it any less of a poem? I think not. If the poem had comments would it make it better or more worthy of winning? Again, I think not.

Ofcourse most of them are club poems..because there is a button specially for them...you don't have to roam around to find them...

do you think everyone has all the time in the world to roam this whole site looking for good poems?...

get serious.. ha.

and stop labeling them as "club poems"

they are just poems..whether they are from someone in a club or not..

''Does the fact that it has no comments make it any less of a poem? I think not. If the poem had comments would it make it better or more worthy of winning? Again, I think not.''

I agree with Colm here, a nomination doesn't make a poem win (not directly anyway) so I don't believe it should be justified, it's just a suggestion of some kind and/or an opinion. In the end, it's judges who pick the winning poems, not the nominators, accordingly, nominators shouldn't be obliged give to a reason for or justify their choices. The only time a member should be forced to justify their nomination is if nominations had a direct effect on a poem winning, as in, the number of nominations a poem gets leads to the poem making it to the front page, here I can unerstand why a nominator should justify his choice, but otherwise no. I think such a procedure will do more harm than good to the process and will lead to lesser nominations for one, and also harm the quality of comments a poem recieves.

I believe the fact that a member nominated a poem, in itself, tells enough to the poet about the poem. They're bascially saying ''This is front page material'' to the poet.

Also, I think it important for the judges to judge according to their own opinions and thoughts on the poem, not insights and comments of others. So I don't think it will help the judges, either.

Do you think everyone has all the time in the world to roam this whole site looking for good poems?...

--- voila!! We don't have the whole time to go look around at poems and spend our whole time trying to decipher its meaning thus it's helpful when someone else does that. And what better way to when someone nominates the poem.

You know there are a range of great poems that are left unnoticed and I mean in the nomination list not the whole site because not everyone understand them. At least that's my thinking.

I find it really helpful when I see other peoples comment with their thoughts about the piece.
I believe that just because I don't understand a poem that doesn't mean that it shouldnt be a winner.

Okay, I guess before I keep going. I should ask, what exactly makes a poem a winner? Simply because one judge was able to relate to it, the tone, the flow, the length, the category, what is it?

As for me, a poem that has the majority of the elements is a winner. For instance, the flow, the emotion With which was written should be felt by the reader,( this one is always there in any poem) it has to have a message even if it is silly, good imagery, and as for structure and lenght that is not important, and yes, it pretty much needs to leave the reader with Surprise or simply wow!

I think it is important to leave a comment when we nominate perhaps not right away but before the week is over. It doesn't take a whole lot of time to say why we like it or what we understood from it or how it makes us feel.� 

And No, I doubt that people will stop commenting or nominating poems. In any case, it would create more movement around the site because there will be more constructive thinking.

And lets supposed that they stop nominating then there will be less nominations, well lets look at the bight side, it will be better for the judges. They will have less poems to look around and they will pay closer attention to the ones that got nominated.

And I seriously doubt people will stop writing just because their poems aren't nominated. But anyways.

As for Colm's message, I see your point and in fact is a good one.
Mods already have too much work to be handed another one.
But this is only a suggestion, its pretty much for everyone to see it. Specially the regulars, so that they think about it and try to leave a comment. I've seen LP leaving comments on all the poems he nominates, and that's one reason why I like this suggestion.
It not only tells the poet why they like it but also the other people. And seriously, I'm thinking more towards the learning process. There are different type of styles of writing, different metaphors and we don't understand all of them, and also there are people who are shy to ask what the piece is about. I mean leaving comments can help the rookies learn more too if they look at the poem's comments on the front page.
And That's how I've been learning.

"Some people are really over- complicating thiings... and over thinking too...hm."

--- there you go Jex. We are thinking the same. Why make this more complicated than it is.
It's a suggestion asking all the members to leave one comment when they nominate. Not much.

And to. Be honest. I prefer a well and thought comment over a nomination or a winner tag That says allot more.
And undoubtedly that's why some or I can say myself, I enter contest because of the comments that they give once the contest is over and too see the creativity of others and also mine. :)
Like nevi's or britt's contest. That's fun.

Ps.. I'm not saying that I don't appreciate nominations, I do. And thank you for them! And allot more thank you's for the comments!
They mean allot too.

^I agree with Princess on that point.

So... we're thinking maybe not 1-5 anymore. There are still a couple of things we could do, though.

1. Ask Janis to make the judging "blind." Maybe poems could be posted in order of time of nomination, or something. Right now, it's not always the top scorers that go to the top. Last week, the first poem on the list was one that had no judges' votes but lots of nominations. But if we could randomize the ranking a bit, I could see that being good.

2. We still have the issue of ties. One thing we could do (and start directly) would be put someone in charge of breaking third-place ties. If the contest manager (or whomever) saw poems with scores of 20, 17, 10, and 10, she (or a sub judge, or a mod) could read them and make a vote of 4. It would imply that an additional person preferred that poem to another. It's really up to you guys, and what you think would be fair.

I don't think you could be in danger of kicking a second place poem out of the running with an extra vote on the 3rd, but speak up, anyone, if you can think of a way that would happen.

As for the tie breaker that sounds good to me.
It's better if a person choose it over a computer.

I like the idea of a mod doing it and discussing their choice with other mods.

About this whole.people nominating club poems, that's irritating to still see. Sometimes, yes, people nominate poems from their club members poetry list. Big deal. Doesn't make it a bad poem. I became friends with every one of my friends here through poetry first. Start commenting and then you end up PMing and build a friendship. So now that I am friends with Sib, because I'm in MM and she in TC, I can nominate her stuff, but not Narph or Mel, two others who are regular winners, because they're in the same club as me? Silly.

Lets just make the top 3 a top 5 and they will be no more ties... mhm.

Or let all the voted poems win :)
gimme a break pleasseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Or just abolish the whole system and stop ranking art in terms of better or worse.

You know I think the current way of voting works well, and yes there are ties and then sometimes the 3rd poem has ties and we are unsure of which one gets chosen to be a winner, Would it be too hard just to add an extra space in the case of a tie?
Or maybe just have 5 poems but then maybe there will be ties still.
Hmm, Tough one

I'm so over this thread.

Gimme a break Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

^^Your disparaging comments are condescending and unhelpful, what makes your opinions So Right??

Nicko forever x0x0

Does the fact that it has no comments make it any less of a poem? I think not. If the poem had comments would it make it better or more worthy of winning? Again, I think not.

^^^^

To answer you...no.. having comments on the poem does not make it a better poem or more worthy of the front page....that is not what I was addressing here...or trying to at least. I have been quite happy with most of the winning poems over the past few months. My whole issue is still with the tie break situation and how such nominations can affect who ends up winning...if a poem has 10 comments and only one nomination...does that make it any less worthy of a win either? And...I still don't think anyone still really knows which of these poems would take out third place....that's my point.

Nicko because you're so much older than me, please don't let me say the F word........

forgive me, sir.