Should there be a change in weekly judging? Continuation

In our last episode, we discussed changing some aspects of the weekly judging. In the end, we decided that judging points should, for now, remain at 4, 7, and 10, with judges voting each week for their top 3 poems. This was decided due to the fact that if poems were given values of 1-5, more different combinations could result in ties. The idea of judges voting on every poem was also raised.

Some other ideas that have been raised are:

-Having the voting totals hidden from judges. Judges would be unable to see votes, and wouldn't be able to determine which poems are "winning" based on their placement in the nominations list.

-Having a mod (or substitute) break ties for 3rd place. Most people seem to like this idea.

-Having whoever breaks the tie write a comment. Consensus seems to be that they should (I agree).

-As an alternative to the first idea, another option was having the remaining judges choose which of two 3rd place poems should win. This idea is fair, but would also require some luck and coordination to get judges to comment at the last minute. It is still being discussed.

Thanks for the update Sibs and for crunching topics that are still being discussed. Regarding someone stepping in in the even of a tie break situation my suggestion would be to ask a member who is not in a club and who is not a mod.....I think you would get more of an unbaised vote in this case...just a thought.

I'd like to also bring a comment from the previous thread because it got locked before I'd read this one from LP...

I honestly don't prefer the idea of someone breaking the tie... The computer is not subjective at all. It chooses the poem which is more popular. That doesn't suffice

^^^^^

What about poets who hit the requests to read threads on a regular basis and, therefore, have heaps more votes/comments than someone who doesn't go there. We both know which poem would be selected by the computer.....is this fair?

Being in a club has nothing to do with poetry!! I am so tired of reading that. People who are close to others and in a club with them should not be punished for that. I routinely nominate and voted on Melissas poetry, and I can count in one hand how many times we have talked, and it was more of a thank you for the comments. Does that mean our 'friendship' made me biased to vote for her? No. And were not even in the same club. She is just a damn good poet.

This attack on people in clubs (where we chat for crying out loud) is getting seriously tired.

I routinely nominate and voted on Melissas poetry, and I can count in one hand how many times we have talked, and it was more of a thank you for the comments

^^^^

Oh...you scratch my back and I'll do the same...Is that what you mean?

I comment regularly on her poetry because I love it, it moves me, and she inspires me. I think I've gotten maybe five comments in return? She sent me a PM thanking me for the comment or answer a question I may have had in my comment. How that falls under the you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours is beyond me.

Okay Hellon, then you're saying that those who win because of a tie are the ones who go to the ASK FOR A COMMENT thread to get votes/comments?..... okay, then why don't you go there? (i don't mean 'you' literally), all people should go.

Popularity is not defined by going to this thread or just chatting in the forums... Check out the people they added you to their favorites, and are your poems great enough?, do you talk with others through pms (not just thank you for the comment..)?, are you considerate? do you attack people just to feel good about yourself (the answer should be no here)? do you LOL all the time hear?

^ those are some standards for being popular, which lead you to get more comments/more votes... If you have all of those questions answered YES, then there you go... you became popular.

And I kind of agree with Britt. She thinks Melissa is a great writer, and she isnt in her club. she nominates regularly.. so what? and what's with "scratch my back, I'll scratch yours?" .. that's irrelevant. For example, Karla isn't in my club. I regularly talk with her, comment, and nominate her poems. Not because she comments on mine... because I think she's the best female writer in here. That's how it goes.

I agree with Britt and Abed (LP), clubs mean nothing to nominating or voting,
and if we are talking about Hellon's comment,
Are you saying that just because we have had a friendly conversation with a member and are friends then we can't vote for them or nominate, because then many of us would never nominate, (for Id consider many of the great writers here to be a friend of sorts) but I comment on there poems because they are talented and make me feel something when I read there work.

Those are some standards for being popular, which lead you to get more comments/more votes... If you have all of those questions answered YES, then there you go... you became popular

^^^

OMG...there is a criteria to being popular? Damn...I've been doing all the wrong things for years it would seem! Thank you for pointing my errors out since 2006....

Maybe you should start a thread....12 easy ways to becoming popular on P&Q or something???

Tick all the above boxes suggested by LP and you're in...don't and...well you're me I guess!

I hope you didn't skip the, I don't mean 'YOU' literally..

but anyway, sadly... it became like this.

Hellon why did you skip over all the rest of the stuff said, as you brought it up? Is it no longer an issue??

Okay Hellon, then you're saying that those who win because of a tie are the ones who go to the ASK FOR A COMMENT thread to get votes/comments?..... okay, then why don't you go there? (i don't mean 'you' literally), all people should go.

^^^^^

No...that's not what I said at all. I said..in the event of a tie situation, at the moment, the computer selects the winner based on the number of votes it has so....the poem that has been posted in the requests thread will end up the winner..not because it's necessarily the best poem....just that the computer reads the number of votes it has.

This has nothing to do with who's the most popular person on the site..I'm not interested in that..it's about fairness and....it was also just a question asking what others thought.

Don't see the harm in having a "third umpire" (or in this case, sixth) to consult in the event of a tie, right before the contest ends or after all judges have voted. Same technology, same principles, no fuss.

I also like the idea of the nominated poems being randomly shuffled every time the page is opened, and hiding the voting totals from the judges.

Why not the computer be the sixth umpire? You can only find objectivity in the computer. He has no heart.. no tendencies.

And for shuffling... let's keep on shufflin'

^^^^

That's exactly why we shouldn't have a computer...it only reads numbers.

And people read tendencies..

I'm not sure what you mean....can you explain further?

I believe that the savior (lower-case 's') who will break the tie would tend, in his/her sub-conscience, to let the nearest one to him/her win.... maybe one is in his/her club,,, or one talks to him/her regularly, irregularly... or he/she doesn't like one of the people in the tie......... and many other cases. Believe me... the computer is the savior in this case.

And yet you are happy letting the judges vote every week and have confidence that they are subjective? You don't have confidence in a stand in judge being called upon in the event of a tie break...you'd rather a computer selects? I don't understand the logic here?

I get what you are saying there Hellon, The judges may try and be subjective, but they are all human and its our nature to be bias (sometimes)
Although Im not sure the computer choosing the one with the highest amount of votes works either, but both valid points.

Judges are supposed to do their work... they cannot be replaced by computers! but the tie breaker can be replaced! that's it

No...that's it in your opinion...let others have their thoughts on this please. It's holiday season and some folks are away. The computer came down on your favour in one of these tie breaks....I wonder what your thoughts would be if it had rejected your poem???

Edit..

Yesterday when my thoughts got to the requests thread and the possible outcome of poems in there there was a request from Tara Kay asking for comments on a collab between her and LP...it seems to have been deleted now...I want to know why and which mod deleted it?

Really Hellon, the request is still there in
the thread 'duo-rhyme 2 for 1'.
????

Yes, Abed i am curious in this too.

Ugh Hellon I beg you a pardon.. you're the one who's throwing questions here and there... If you don't want me to answer, then don't ask.
and hold your horses madame, you think I chose the computer because it made my poem win? you can ask it then to remove that silly title beside it if it annoys you... go stick it to any piece you like. My thoughts if my poem was rejected would be the following:

I don't give a f***. and.. Congrats to the winner! (especially that 50% was the probability of Noura winning..... and you know we are cyber siblings)

Wait and what....? what request? If Tara wants comment on the collab I cannot tell her no, but FYI I do not go to that thread.. and I don't know anything about the request. And what's the relation between that and this request????

you're saying too much dear Hellon... way too much, and you're just adding anything that comes to your mind in this thread.

I no more know what you specifically want..... but I know I want to depart from here forever.

Have a joyous holiday

-Edited a little profanity.

The request forum is there for a reason and people use it. Why is this an issue?

Thought as much Abed,
It's great to win but a HM is a win as a nomination itself is great.

We have different opinions, different thoughts, must disagree to agree.

....

I would probably be more inclined to have an extra judge choose from a tie, but I'd be open to letting the computer keep choosing if that's what more people want. I just think it never hurts to have another critical eye in there. Right now, there aren't really any limits on what poems can be nominated. We don't require people to justify their nominations, because they are simply putting poems forward for consideration. When it comes to choosing the actual winners, though, I would enjoy seeing a tie being broken on the grounds of perceived merit by a thoughtful judge, rather than a default win based on people who are, in effect, simply saying "hey, check out this poem."

Perhaps we should discuss it a while longer, wait for any final thoughts, and then have a vote in a separate thread.

Tara...if your request is still there then I can't see it...the only post that's one there is one from Michael?

LP

You ended your previous comment with...that's it. That sounded final, like you were saying...topic over and that led to the response I gave.

Britt

Yes, the requests forum is there to be used...not abused. If someone is trying out a new form/has been away from the site for a while/has writer's block etc then....fine but when people use it every time they post a new poem...IMO that's abusing the forum.

" Requests to read/comment poems This is the ONLY place in forum where you should post your requests to read, rate, comment and critique your poems."

It does not say 'only if you've been away from writing or trying out a new form'. Comments should be helpful to a writer to help them grow. I don't see how asking for input is abuse. Maybe those who constantly seek comments are insecure or unsure of their writing, or really want to improve. As a poetry site should we really call that abuse? We all came here for poetry or quotes, seems we all get farther and farther away from that.

"you're saying too much dear Hellon... way too much, and you're just adding anything that comes to your mind in this thread"

i'd rather listen to Hellon than you dear fellow...

"I no more know what you specifically want..... but I know I want to depart from here forever"

good idea, off you go then....

Yes Britt, I can read thank you. Have you checked to see what sort of comments most of these requests generate? Here's one....Seasons Greetings :) but a 5 score was added meaning...if one of these poems was in a tie break that 5 would count.

Anytime I have asked for comments I ask no one liners and an honest critique. I don't return the favor if I get a meaningless comment. You as a writer can't make someone give you the perfect.comment or help, but you can still try to grow. If people are saying please don't critique, I want praise.. then I think that's pretty pointless, but to each their own. We gotta stop worrying about what everyone else is doing, especially when its no harm.

I see your point Hellon
'Tara...if your request is still there then I can't see it...the only post that's one there is one from Michael?'
I am addicted to the forums, but when I was busy and did not post I think you were one of the members worried about me lol

I think what Hellon meant about forum abuse is not about the cyberspace but sportsmanship . I wonder if she realizes how that slowed down after a former mod threaten penaltes for the text r/r/c

Look Britt...honestly I don't care who uses that forum or why. I don't care if they offer bribes...2 for 1 etc. All I'm trying to say is....any poem that finds itself in a tiebreak situation at the moment...the computer reads the most votes not the actual poem or the comments. It was just something that no one else seemed to have considered when we were discussing having a sixth judge in a tiebreak situation or letting the computer pick the winner. All angles should be looked at and discussed before any decision is made for change I feel.

People complain another judge or mod is biased. People complain the computer doing it is from a popularity contest. It's going to have to be majority votes. I don't think anyone will change their minds. I personally don't give a crap how a tie is broken. It's just a weekly win tab next to your poem that gets you downvotes and maybe one or two comments lol

As bad as I hate to admit it Quid Pro Quo is effective for getting votes anywhere

Yes Michael....I meant sportsmanship...why didn't I think of that word???? lol!

I think I have a problem right now...I can't see Tara's request anymore and also..the top post on the requests thread headed Plz Plz read...something like that but...I can't see any post or who the member is who made the post?

I am going to try to use my abily to remember things that are considered trivial to solve that mystery in the mean time enjoy this copy and paste fro wiki

Sportsmanship

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sportsmanship is an aspiration or ethos that a sport or activity will be enjoyed for its own sake, with proper consideration for fairness, ethics, respect, and a sense of fellowship with one's competitors. A sore loser refers to one who does not take defeat well, whereas a good sport means being a "good winner" as well as being a "good loser".

Hellon, its posted by mysterious girl. I wonder why you can't see it? Try clearing your history and all that jazz and come back in??

This is what Tara was talking about posted in my Duo rhyme request

'Okay,
Can you do "The lost creak of summer (collab with Lebanese Phoenix)"
and any of my other latest " Tara Kay