Senior Member requirements

Alrighty, well that settles that.

Sib - sorry to have caused chaos in your thread. Thanks for letting us know the changes!

"I PREFER TO IGNORE YOU AS I HAVE ALWAYS DONE. YOU DON'T DESERVE A LINE FROM ME"

Well, isn't it Rude Rubielle herself.
god,Karla calm down.

Let's get back on topic. Any other opinions? Reactions?

My suggestion would be that we should give it a few months to settle in and see if we notice any positive changes, then reconvene.

Edit: Nana, thanks for the additional idea. I think for me, though, I'd rather just trust the judges to disregard poems based on their feelings. I think treating them like praised comment would put too much contest control into the hands of the mods.

^^^

very true!

People won't react because they are afraid of expressing themselves here!!!!

AND I CAN'T BE CALM WHEN SOMEONE CALLS ME SILLY BECAUSE I AM FIGHTING FOR WHAT I BELIEVE AND TELL ME TO LEAVE THE SITE.

I can see your point of being angry Karla. You have been here a long time and I too think it is not fair that you cant nominate anymore..thats why I didnt vote either way because I knew the new rule would indeed affect some of us that have been here a while.

Im sorry and agree that the privledge should not be taken from those who already have it

I have 10 or else I'd be cappin too! This new rule should apply only to new accts

If someone has an idea for how we could apply this only to new accounts, we'd all be very interested in hearing it. It is a bummer for older, returning members, but we haven't been able to think of a way to counteract it. Brainstorming session!

Returning members and accounts that were deleted and the member came back are people that start all over again. I had to, and just because I am a prior member I don't feel I get certain extras because of it. You work your way up - I knew that when I came back... thats a part of deleting your account and making a new one.

I dont think 10 comments is much to ask seeing as a majority of members voted for even higher numbers. If people delete their accounts, (I did once too) I think they have to accept that they lose their praised comments, its unfortunate but it happens. I can see why Karla may be angry but from what I can see a majority of members discussed and voted for the change so personally I dont have a problem with it. Senior status isnt that big a deal anyway, 10 praiseworthy comments could be achieved in a short space of time if the poet wants to achieve nominating status.

You are obliging people to comment.I was against this rule all the time. As I stated before poetry is a tool to wide horizons, to bring pleasure.Besides from now on anybody can be a senior member in a very short period of time. It is wrong. How can we write a comment, I mean a good comment if we don't know the work of the author?Poetry is not made of inspiration nor comments.It needs depth and it can't be reached by reading only one work of that specific poet. Moreover not many people are good at poetry analysis.

Write a comment and be a senior member...what is that: Pavlov in Poetry?Is is a conditioning? C'mon wake up.

Totally agree with your views on poetry. It can't easily be compared, and it certainly is hard to quantify. However... by having a contest every week we are accepting that we are making an attempt to do just that. People shouldn't let anything hamper their poetry. People don't have to comment, ever, if they don't want to. However, in order to be a part of the contest (where critique is necessary) they now have to show that they have shown a capacity for thinking about poems critically. A contest, by its very nature, exists by quantifying - or at least ranking- poetry.

"Besides from now on anybody can be a senior member in a very short period of time."

It takes longer than 3 comments, though? You might need to clarify your point here for me.

I am against the contests here if you want to know.Before deleting my account I was in this site because of Phoenix Rising - my former club which I still love and carry in my heart, for the good friends I made not because of any contest. Then I came back for personal reasons.When I say that anybody can be a senior member in a short period of time, I want to say that some people are good at commenting, writing analysis and s/he will be a senior member faster whereas some good poets will have to wait to become one. A person should be made senior if s/he contributes to the site.People come here to read poems not to read comments.Besides comments do not make a poem good. There are a lot of good poems that are invisible here.

^^^agree
I am terrible at commenting

does that make me less of a poet or someone who does not recognize good poetry..sometimes really good poetry leaves me speechless and unable to comment even though I want to desperately...

I know what you mean Karla...

It will take clubless members longer, no one to scratch our backs...hehe

Unless Janis changed it, the amount of poems posted or amount of people that have "favorited" you also weighs into it. One of the three things gets you senior status.. or it did.

Honestly, I'm in favor of this new rule, I voted for higher. In my personal opinion not all the members that had senior status had the maturity not to abuse it and show favoritism among friends. I'm sure this new rule hasn't eliminated all of those members, but I'm certain it has at least cut down on them.

Also I am a big fan of poetry holding depth but I also understand that poetry is an art form as well. it can be something to express emotions or it can also show talent and a cleverness and ability to play with words. If you're using it to express yourself don't worry about what others think and don't taint it by seeking prestige. if people like your work fine, if not accept it because you do it for you. As for poetry not being made of inspiration and commenting I disagree. Poetry is all about inspiration whether it is your emotions that inspire you to write or something that happens to you, but you can't write anything without something sparking a desire to write it. And for the commenting, honestly I feel it shows that you've grown as a writer when you are able to read another person's work and tell them what you think about it. it's a shallow writer that always posts one line comments on other peoples works just to tell them how they thought the poem was amazing. I know, when I first started on this site I was 15 and I wrote some of my own one liners in the beginning. 6 years later and I think I can look at a poem and if I can't decipher what the author wrote it for I can at least comment on what it meant to me as I read it. I don't think 10 comments is that hard to do, and it was a majority vote. People had a chance to state their opinion, and if the outcome is not what they wanted, they were outvoted. Comments don't have to be worded pretty or be well written, what they are looking for is depth. They're looking for something that shows the author you actually took the time to read their piece, not just went through a list of poems and left a bunch of flattery as comments to try to make another poet feel obliged to return the favor. Comments help poets grow and improve their writing. I think senior or nominator status should be given to those who show they have the capacity to not only improve their own writing, but help others improve theirs as well which is shown through comments which is why I think comments are a fitting way to judge whether members have the capacity to take senior membership seriously or if they just want it as a prestige thing or to use for favoritism reason.

Well shit. If your taking Karlas. Take mine too.

With all due respect but I think Karla is a great poet who gives really good insight on her poetry. So I doubt that she can't give 10 good comments and so I don't know why she sees this new change as not fair.

Edit: with all due respect to Karla, I think you can write 10 good comments.

It would be cool if people could apply for senior status, and be approved/denied by the mods just as they approve/deny praised comments.

I agree that if she does give good insiteful comments she should be given senior membership status, and if she is capable of giving them then it won't take her long to get back to being a senior member. The change was not directed at her and is not unfair. I have received praises on some of my comments by members I've never even talked to or heard of. the praising of a comment isn't based on favoritism, it's based on the merit of the comment so it isn't unfair, it's about how much effort people want to put into a comment and if effort is put in people will recognize it.

I disagree with you. Silent Screaming. Poetry is 99% pure technique and 1% inspiration. You are right about writing when something touches us deeply.However, my point here is that appraisals shouldn't be a condition to become a senior member.Appraisals need honesty and iindependent judgement. Do you know where does the nature of literary criticism spring from?First from your own judgement. A writer develops when he exercises his self-criticism first. Therefore don't think you are going to help people to write better because of your comment.What helps a poet to grow is his desire to improve. When I started writing in this site, I noticed how poor my poems were in English so I decided to write better not only for me but for Phoenix Rising.I was proud of being a member there. And I am stilll trying to be a good poet. Maybe I will never be. Comments are important but they are drops in a ocean called poetry my dear. They motivate us, they don't help us to improve.

Besides everybody is comfortable here so it seems to me I was the only one who was affected by the new rule.

Nominating a poem or winning the weekly poetry contest doesn't make a writer improve - every single one of us on this site could improve. I don't know of any one of us that is William Shakespeare famous, so everyone definitely has room to grow. Comments and suggestions DEFINITELY help that - if the writer wants to grow themselves and take others critiques into consideration. If people are here strictly to write and read poetry, senior status/awards/weekly contests shouldn't matter.

Since I am the only one affected here by the new law/rule/measure whatever it might be, it is obvious that I am crying over spilt milk. People are very comfortable when they are not affected. Things are wrong here. It is a great site with great poets but many things are wrong. Here we argue all the time and it is a shame because poetry is not for that. So I can only wish you all good luck and tell you I won't comment anybody anymore from now on.It goes against my principles.I am not going to write a comment to get a praise.Thats ridiculous.

I too had my senior status taken by this new change...no biggy, in time I may or may not regain senior status... I do like to nominate poems however because there are a ton of members on here that arnt noticed with a ton of talent and creative poetry that I feel deserves to have their poems shine... I read alot of poetry on here and I just feel that others would enjoy them as well... that being said, it's a free site.. and this is by far one of the best poetry sites online. Changes are made for a reason, and I accept that. I comment alot... in my own way... if people feel it's praise worthy than so be it.. if they don't, then ok.... I'ts not going to change me or the way I comment... Ill continue to read alot of poetry, and comment... those who have me on their favorites will see my comments and the persons poem... and if they have the ability to nominate then they will choose to do so. It's a ripple affect.... and all is good I feel. Just my thoughts~

Truth be told I voted for 30 praised comments to be the standard for senior membership which I fall short of, partially because I do not comment unless I feel I have something to offer the author and partially because a lot of my old praised comments were deleted with members accounts that are now gone. I would have to almost triple my praised comments I have now to get up to my standard for senior membership, it isn't about targeting people.

And Maple Tree, I think that was very well said. very well said indeed.

You know sista I am glad you have swallowed the new rule but I haven't. Besides comments won't improve the quality of nominations. What is that we have here? A literary canon? Have you stopped to think that Shakespeare was a success in detriment of Marlowe who was as good as him.But Queen Elizabeth didnt like him.She liked Mr Shakespeare. Do you really think you are going to eliminate favoritism with praised comments?

Anyway, I am tired. A virtual argument is the most ridiculous thing in the world. Do as you like it.

Karla, you are beginning to touch on just one of the reasons I deleted 275 poems and no telling how many comments. The "new" people have an agenda..it's sorta like North Koreas new boss....i be da boss and those that kiss my butt shall prosper...

I think my original suggestion of a double blind contest to eliminate favoritism was either possibly overlooked, too complicated, or too drastic of a step to be considered, but I am not shouting my lungs out about that. I stated my opinion intelligently while they were asking and know that I have voiced an opinion. I do not think favoritism can be eliminated completely, but I do feel we can at least up the caliber it takes and effort people will go to for favoritism. At least some will possibly drop off due to not wanting to put effort forth.

This change was actually my idea, and I will probably be one of the biggest losers, because Karla is one of the very few people who nominates my poems.

That being said, this change came about from a Democratic process, not from a decree by those in power.

I believe that writing praise-worthy comments is a skill that is just as valuable as writing praise-worthy poems. I do it to improve my poetry skills and to help others improve their skills. I never even think about doing it to attain senior status.

But many will do specially the new members.

Kiko, you are a great poet. You won't lose anything.I am the one who is losing here: I am losing my right. I never favour my club neither the former nor Fragments of Poetry. When I nominate poems. As matter of fact I think a lot before nominating a poem.I read it a thousand times and somehow it reads me because a good poem reads the reader as your latest poem.

They did so especially before when only 3 analytical comments were required for senior status. Asking that 10 good comments be submitted before acquiring senior status will not make this issue worse. How could it?

Anyway, this is not a dictatorship, it is very clearly a democracy. We took a vote, the demand for a higher number of praised comments was overwhelming. We could have taken the average, instead we started with a lower number. I don't see anyone who asked for 30 praised comments having a fit that we decided on a number less than the average number voted on.

Continue debating, it is good for all of us, and for the site, but try not to make it personal.

Look at the best critiques list. Those people have been senior members for ages, yet they still write thoughtful, praise worthy comments. They have no agenda to gain a senior status... Sometimes people do really comment because they want to, not because of a hidden agenda.

Janey I was a little irked thinking "hey, that can't be the average", but decided some change was better than no change... lol.

What am I questioning is the reason why the rule is being applied to me because when I got my senior membership, there was another rule: 3 praised comments. I had 4.It is not fair.

Britt - Some change is better than no change, I agree, and it's probably safer to sort of sink our way into it rather than cannonball.

I can't say cannonball without thinking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bXsTyMxSzc

Karla - I understand why you are upset. It is frustrating to have a privilege and then have it taken away, but there must be some comfort in knowing the rule is being universally applied? I don't think it would be fair to apply it only to the new members. Why should rules apply to them that don't apply to the rest of us? Older members may have more prestige, which is only natural, but they are not given special favors. They are not more exempt from rules than newer members. We are equals.

Changes are good when they satisfy everybody and are fair. If you want to change anything, change for those who are registering now. Don't affect old members.

Once again, there's no way to do that, that we can find.

Also, no change is going to satisfy everybody. Best we can hope for is a majority - which seems to have happened in this case.

If they do that, then new members begin to cry out about injustices and favoritism towards old members. it's a majority vote that all members were allowed to participate in, because it affected all members.

We aren't equal here and you know that. Besides it was not a privilege.It was the rule some time ago.

The new members won't do that. And I haven't seen the majority here. There are a few people participating in this thread. I was against and I am against this new rule.So its only me and Maple Tree being affected? Only us? People shut up because they are afraid.Can't believe it but people are afraid. I thought it was a free country or at least it used to be some time ago.

The discussion and vote thread can be found here:

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=133624

Keep in mind that there was a series of larger discussions that took place before this vote. We were originally going to take the average of the votes, but as the discussion evolved we decided to start small and spend some more time talking about it.

I really don't think people are afraid of giving their opinions. We have not shut down, threatened, or otherwise punished anybody for speaking in this discussion.