Weekly Contest: Final Changes

Focusing on the contest, we have the following set up on the judging now. Judges must vote by Saturday and send their comments by Sunday. This method allows the coordinator time to alert the mods if a stand-in or a tie-breaker is required.

In order to level the field, and following through on an idea from the several threads, the nomination tool is disabled for Saturdays & Sundays. By taking this step, the judges do not have to worry that a better poem will be nominated after they have voted. No other restriction on nominations is imposed. If you find a poem on the weekend that appears worthy to you, simply save it to your favorites and nominate it Monday.

This step is the final one that will be taken so that we can let things settle down, see how it works out, and some time later decide what, if any, adjustments need to be made.

I know there will be some poems that you discover that will be exactly old enough not to be qualified by Monday. That means that under the previous set-up these poems would have been on the nomination page for two days at the most.

Conversely, many of you asked for the nominations to be open only for a few days at the start of the week. The actual change is not so radical. We're taking baby steps.

I realize some of you will be upset. I know that we seem to have gone far down the path of change, perhaps alienating many of you at one time or another. Please bear with us. The intent of these changes is to further the purposes of the contest. It allows the judges to select poems that reflect the best the site has to offer, recognize excellence and build the community. At the same time, it provides that a human and not the site will effect any tie-breaking duties, while not affecting the broad range of choice open to nominators.

Pre-nominators are still provided with the means to earn the nomination tool. These criteria directly reflect the care they should be able to take in selecting poems, and only the first method has been affected:
-writing at least 10 insightful or constructive comments that are praised,
- being chosen as favorite by at least 20 people and having at least ten poems,
- writing 100 poems while maintaining at least a 4.2 rating.

Feedback is still welcomed, be it passionate or not, but please avoid swipes at individuals who state their own mind. You can attack me all you want, if it helps; I'm Irish, I'm used to it.

Lol Irish..man! thank you for posting those details, :D I like!

To be honest, I wouldn't have suggested and supported this change, if I thought you could still become a senior member simply by having 20 friends on the site or copying and pasting 100 poems.

Here's a new idea to be considered for the future:
Reset the entire site, so no one is a senior member. Then everyone would have to earn their nominating status by demonstrating they can write 10 praise-worthy comments.

We would have to come up with a different way to nominate poems for a few weeks, but at least we would all be on a level playing field.

Taking away the other factors in becoming a nominator is an option for the future. We didn't want to change too much at once.

I don't like the idea of reseting the entire site. Though I wouldn't mind starting from scratch myself, I don't even want to think about the level of upset we'd have to deal with.

I'm curious, is anyone against the idea of taking away the Favorites and # Poems features from becoming a nominator? I support it.

I think if people have written 10 praiseworthy comments even before the 10 was into play (because it was 3 before), then they shouldn't have everything reset. Then it just takes a day or two for nominater status.. and nothing changes that I can see, but having some ticked off people.

I like the idea that we can't nominate on Sat/Sun. As a previous judge, I would focus on dates as well to do a tie breaker (if one was "older" than the other I knew one would roll over and that would help me decide after I went through my other criteria of techniques used etc), and when a poem nominated would come up but fall off, it made it harder. That was a long ramble for no reason. Point said, I like it lol.

"I think if people have written 10 praiseworthy comments even before the 10 was into play (because it was 3 before), then they shouldn't have everything reset"
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The standards for praise-worthiness have been all over the map. I have seen some very juvenile comments that have gotten praised. Resetting everyone to zero and starting over with higher standards would achieve the aim in Larry's mission statement.

There are a lot of older comments that were praised before we tightened up our standards.

We're mulling over a new idea before bringing it to Janis... Give mods the power to remove praise on comments. Right now, we can't.

I'd definitely be for getting rid of "favorites list" as a way of getting senior status. To me, that doesn't have anything to do with anything. Site seniority (length of membership) doesn't really speak to judging ability either. (I know that's not one of the ways we have, but it's been discussed.) I'm on the fence about 100 poems. On one had, it's not really a direct correlation between poems written and nominating potential, but on the other hand it could give membership to people who either 1) Don't like to comment too much, or 2) Are in "dark" corners of the site and don't get as much comments praised because they are out of the sightline of the people who do most of the praising.

That said, though, I could really go either way. I'd be up for letting a majority choose on these issues, and I'd probably go along with it.

If this is the "Voting" on these issues.

No to doing away with the other two methods of attaining Nominating or whatever status it is going to be called.

No to resetting the site.

No to, although this has been put in place, I can register displeasure, closing nominations for two days.

Evidently, I was and I suppose others were too, under the mistaken impression that a change would be made and given time to see what that change brought about. Now we have two changes in effect at the same time. Maybe Janis would be well advised to shut this site down and start from scratch.

I'm curious, is anyone against the idea of taking away the Favorites and # Poems features from becoming a nominator? I support it.

^

I support it too!

"Evidently, I was and I suppose others were too, under the mistaken impression that a change would be made and given time to see what that change brought about. Now we have two changes in effect at the same time."

No, you're right. We did talk about making a change at a time. However, these two changes were kind of unrelated. One is to make it a little bit harder to be a nominator, and thus change the level of the poems that are nominated.

The freeze on weekend nominating isn't targeted at the stature of the poems being nominated - it's more to ensure that the judges vote and comment on time, with enough time built in to let a person come in and break ties when needed. It's a few changes at once, I know, but hopefully the two will be unrelated enough that they won't meddle with each other.

Since there is no way to inform the entire membership of the closing of nominations for two days, and taking the age of poems into consideration, many poems will be eliminated right off the bat. The change in status should have allowed time to show what change it would bring before introducing another one.

Nana, I am against doing away with the other 2 methods of attaining nominating status. I expressed my feelings in the first post I made.

Hopefully, this thread will be a notification for the majority of the nominating population. Spread the word! If there's a poem you're thinking of nominating, get it in now!

O.o Ooppss! Sylviii, i said nothing..

By" I support it too"[which is a reply to Jane's post] I meant I also think it's wise to get rid of the number of poems, and favorites list, as ways of becoming a senior.

Maybe you got me wrong, or I misunderstood your 2nd post. That's it so far XD

love and light;
NaaaaNaaaa :P

Just a couple of questions, is the nominator status retroactive, meaning if you nominated a poem this week, will it have deleted your nomination for this as far as this week goes?
And as far as the judging thing goes does the time as far as weekends go mean that it is going on site time so it will be Monday in some parts of the world when it is Sunday in others and so forth. If I am not mistaken I am assuming it will work on Eastern Standard Time which is the same time the site is on? Not that this applies for me, just wondering.

Since my right to be a nominator was taken away, I want my last nominations deleted.

Yes to reset the praised comments and start over. That would be a fair decision.Everybody would be in the same boat again.As Kiko said, a lot of juvenile comments were praised. They weren't in-depth at all.

Personally, I would like to see the other two methods of achieving nominator status go. I can see that writing a hundred poems and having to have a set average for your overall rating cuts down on people writing crap poems to achieve nominator status, but I don't think it directly reflects the ability to assess or recognize nomination worthy poems. and I don't think favorites list has anything to do with it so I would at least like to see the favorites go first, then possibly the 100 poems as well.

As to the weekend being shut down for nominations I like the idea, I know I personally lose track of what day it is sometimes when I nominate and forget that it may be too late for this week and may be too old by next week. it will help me keep my days in order..maybe lol

and as for mods being able to remove a praise on a comment, I highly approve. it allows for checks and balances on what may of been an old mod showing favoritism, or just lack of high standards. and if the standards have been tighten I think it only fitting that there be a way to make old praises as well as new fit the new standard. and if people complain they can be directed to the "rules and guidelines" link where it clearly states, at the very top, first thing. "Any and all decisions are final and rules and guidelines are subject to change without notice at "Poems & Quotes" discretion."

We're mulling over a new idea before bringing it to Janis... Give mods the power to remove praise on comments. Right now, we can't
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And will the next step be the mods seeking the power to delete any poem that does not conform to their "high" standards?

Dixieday and Karla: Edit: and Anna!

"Just a couple of questions, is the nominator status retroactive, meaning if you nominated a poem this week, will it have deleted your nomination for this as far as this week goes?"

I don't believe so, no. They should still be around.

Also, the nominations freeze would be on the site time, yeah.

"Since my right to be a nominator was taken away, I want my last nominations deleted."

We're not able to do that, sorry.

I'd be fine with resetting the praised comments! For me it would be fine, but it would be a shame to see some of those top commentors lose their place. Not that that's why they do it, but there are folks who have been commenting for ages and have dozens and dozens of praises racked up.

But, as long as it didn't delete the actual comments, it would probably be fine. We might not have a contest for a week, but it would sure be kind of funny. I wonder what would happen if nothing got voted on?

"And will the next step be the mods seeking the power to delete any poem that does not conform to their "high" standards?"

...No? The only poems we delete are plagiarized poems or rape-endorsing poems out of the explicit section.

We already review the praised comments, this would just be a way to go back and "unpraise" comments that say things like "Hey I loved this it was so sad." Do we need that? Probably not. It could have its uses, but I could take it or leave it.

If nothing was voted on, we would still have good poets and poems.

I am sorry but delete poems that not fill the high standards is an absurd. It is censorship.Who here can judge a poem?Who here belongs to the literary canon?

We're not actually doing that, Karla.

Make Janis install a ticking site clock here. Noone knows when Saturday is coming for sure.

Praised comments should be the only route to Nominator status.

I'm glad the non-voting period is being implemented. It will help reduce nominations, as well as help judges. My only concern is that both days are on the weekend, which may be the only time some members have for reading and voting. A Friday and Saturday would be better.

Scientific method was mentioned before- to only remove one variable at a time. The thing is, you've got to do the research to ensure you pick the right variables. As I keep saying, 3 or 5 or 50 praised comments won't change the number or quality of nominated poems. Research the nominations page and the nominators. People with 30 praised comments are still nominating crap poems all the time. Give the judges a shortlisting tool to deal with it.

As to the fairness issue, I think resetting the site's nominator status is a great idea to tackle it. Lord knows past and present moderators have allowed some crappy comments to get praise. Have Janis send a mass PM (an option he will have to put in place as well) informing members they only need to get five praised comments to achieve nominator status, starting from now. It won't affect their current C award, only add to it.

I say five, not ten, to decrease the amount of time it will take, as the whole site contest will be frozen. Also, moderators now are much more critical of comments, so being approved five times is more than enough.

Besides if you all want high standards, tell everybody what they are. And again you would be destroying Poetry.

"informing members they only need to get five praised comments to achieve nominator status, starting from now."

That's a good idea. It wouldn't effect what people already have, but it would still be leveled across the board. I wonder if it's possible.

Edit: Abby, I'm a bit confused on your post. You think praised comments should be the only way be a nominator, but you don't think it will change the quality of poems? Why have that be the standard, then?

"Informing members they only need to get five praised comments to achieve nominator status, starting from now."

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that we take away everyone's nominator status without deleteing current praises on comments, and then they have to get 5 praised comments from todays date? or have I misinterpreted it. I'm not judging it, I just want to clarify before I give an opinion on the idea.

That's how I interpreted as well^

Listen some poems are so imagetic and them we can really write in-depth comments but some others aren't. Praised comments depends on poetry that shows. We don't have that here all the time. Good poetry causes us to see ourselves and the world in greater depth and clarity. It is food for thought.

Okay. I think that would actually be fair. Keep the praised comments that are already out there as praised...despite the fact that some make me cringe that they were praised at all, but make the nominator status start from scratch for everyone. I think the 5 comments is fair..but I still feel a higher number would be better. Just a personal opinion. 5 is still better than 3 though.

Karla, yes I think that is food for thought, but I personally believe that the ability to comment on a poem is up to each individual. sometimes it takes longer than other for me to be able to comment on a poem. If i like it I tell the author why, what it made me feel how I interpreted it. If I liked or disliked how they phrased things what I think can be improved. if I don't like a poem..I admit I don't often comment, but when I do I tell them why I disliked it, but I try to be constructive not hurtful. I try to tell them how I think the poem can be improved, either by technique or if it's formed poetry where the person may of strayed from the form, and sometimes I just comment on grammar and punctuation since I was an english major. I try to comment though so they can improve but I always tell them they can take my advise or leave it as they see fit. it's always up to the author.

To SS, yes.

To sibs: I think 5 praised comments, approved by Mods, is a far fairer and more pertinent and controlled way to achieve nominator status than any of the other offered methods. However, it still doesn't account for taste.

There is no real way to improve the quality of the nominated poems (though we could certainly conduct more workshops on poetry analyses and techniques). There are only ways to control the number of nominations and ways to handle them.

Gotcha. : )

"Listen some poems are so imagetic and them we can really write in-depth comments but some others aren't. Praised comments depends on poetry that shows. We don't have that here all the time. Good poetry causes us to see ourselves and the world in greater depth and clarity. It is food for thought."

Karla, I agree. Trust me, it takes a special poem for me to comment it in any great detail. So for some us it will take longer than others. But at least it will be a fairer system for all.

Silent Screaming poetry is not like or dislike. You have to say what you see and support your argument.

I think, and this is a personal opinion, that poetry is all about likes and dislikes. I think everyone interprets things different ways. A reader can interpret a poem completely differently than the author meant it when they wrote it, but that doesn't make the reader wrong, poetry is about what each person takes from it, and in that lies the beauty of it. a poem can mean so many things and creates a life of it's own for each person who reads it once it leaves the authors mind and fingers they use to write it.

Yes, Karla. And you are allowed to do that. You can get praised for writing complimentary comments or critical comments or a combination of both. What matters is how you write it.

I don't think comments should be written in hopes of getting praised, but that is the only qualitative way to assess how good you are at analysing poetry and achieving nominator status.

I suppose I have misworded what I mean by likes and dislikes. I mean how the way a poem is worded can just rub you wrong, urk you when there's mispelled words or repetition that never says anything new. where as by likes I mean things that might strike you with awe at the cleverness of a metaphor, or how you can suddenly see a deeper meaning than just the surface imagery the metaphor contains. I do not mean just saying "oh I like this poem..blah blah blah" I mean explaining. likes and dislikes is just me simplifying..I'm a very wordy person when I explain things..so when I simplify I don't always pick the right description that I intended.

I agree that we interpret things different ways but only good poetry allows that. Nobody is right or wrong when literature is involved as long as you support your arguments. A good poem reads the reader, touches us deeply, you are right.

"A good poem reads the reader"

I believe this. I think you wrote a great poem about this. I wish you'd repost it.

Sometimes repetitions are great and important.Read Poe's The Crow.He makes use of repetition and its great. Beauty in poetry is in creativity, in images, in metaphors.

I think sometimes even bad poetry deserves a comment though. I think that some people are not as adept at writing as others and I think it also takes practice, and you grow as a poet the more you write. I think comments on bad poetry give us an oppurtunity to spot a diamond in the rough. be able to see the sprouting of a seed that may one day turn out to be a great poet. That is why I think comments are praiseworthy, not to seek a nominators status, but to help that seed of poetry grow, if achieving nominator status is the end result so be it. Comments are praiseworthy when they have something to offer, not to seek a prestige. I think comments do show an ability to assess poetry as well though and I don't think a bad poem should be ignored however just because some can't look through it's flaws to see the potential..though..there is some truly awful poetry to sift through.

Sometimes repetition drives a point in and gives it meaning sometimes it grows old it depends how it is delivered.