Weekly Contest: Final Changes

No to getting rid of the other ways of becoming a senior member. There were a lot of people in the original voting thread who didn't think that praised comments should be considered in the process at all, and to go ahead and remove the other paths to nominator status would be to disregard all of those votes. I don't think that's fair.

Comments motivate I agree. Poetry is practice. Writing is practice all the time.Poems shouldn't be ignored: good or bad they are poems and above all we have to respect those who wrote them.We don't gain anything destroying a Poet with a comment. People need to be motivated. Criticism are awful if they are based on subjectivity only.

This is true that is why praised comments should only be given to those who give constructive critism, or offer something to the author that allows them to take something from the comment that improves their writing, or shows the reader looked into the depths of the piece, even if they interpreted it differently than the authors original intent. I think praised comments and comments in general serve a multiple purposes. They are there for those who wish to tell the author what they think, they are there to allow for people to give ideas and input, but I also feel they show an ability and capacity to weed through the dirt and find the gems and those that seek out the gems not for prestige, but for the improvement of those authors and to help them, those are the ones I want to be nominating poems for the contest that displays what our site has to offer to other poets who may not have found a website for poetry that they like just yet. that is why I think a comment that is deserving of praise can be a good method to choose those who are nominating poems that are displayed on our front page. not because comments should seek praise but because others recognize their ability and want to show that they appreciate someone taking the time to give them a thoughtful helpful or insightful comment.

The everybody starting from a clean slate sounds interesting. But the main problem I see with it is that, at least in the short-mid term, it would narrow down the amount of people who have nominating status and that would in turn limit the variety of poems nominated. Some people who have the time or who are most active would get the comments required quickly and that small pool would basically have control over who wins the contest. They might not be the most qualified people, just the ones who had the most time to comment maybe. They might only read their favourite authors, which is understandable, but that leaves a lot more poems out there that might not even be read by a nominating member. And in the long run, mostly the same people will have nominating status as have it now, so I'm not sure if it will achieve anything. I see how it is fair in one way but in another way, is it fair to have the hundreds of good comments made by members of the top critiques page disregarded, and have these members maybe come across a poem and not be able to nominate it? I don't really see what that achieves.

Anyway, could be going over old ground here but I still don't really see the need for such a reduction on poems nominated. I know the judging job can take time but it doesn't take even half a minute for judges to find out if a poem is one of the 'bad' poems that are being nominated.

I agree with practically everything there, Colm, but the thing is there needs to be some sort of resolution.

What you say about the contest being controlled by a small pool only reading favourited authors- well, many seem to think that is the current state, anyway. In any case, the contest should be put on hold for at least a couple of weeks to generate enough nominators. I don't agree with "in the long run, mostly the same people will have nominating status as have it now, so I'm not sure if it will achieve anything"- that has always be the case, should any other measure be taken. Active members will always get rewarded somehow. And top critiques won't be disregarded, their positions will remain. But they will have to write five (?) more comments, the same as any other member. That's fair.

Personally, I think your last line says it all. Technically, none of these measures will actually help the contest much. We can only help the judges. It shouldn't take judges more than 20 minutes to make a shortlist of good poems. With the non-voting period, it should be even easier.

Silently Screaming

I agree with everything you have written.

and that's one of the reasons why I keep thinking that 10 is a low number but I also know that its a trial to see how it works.

and as for resetting the whole praises, that sounds selfish. But if that's the best solution I won't oppose.

Yes it should be resolved, I guess I don't think the everybody start on a clean slate is the way to do it, even if it may seem fair. I did think it had been solved with the vote that time on the number of praised comments necessary, but as you say I think helping the judges is probably more beneficial because at the end of the day its down to them to pick the winners. I don't see nominating status as being such a huge issue.

Yes I don't think the contest will change much due to changing nominating rights. I do still think more than three praiseworthy comments is necessary for new members to gain their nominating status, mainly based on because when I was on this site first I didn't know a good poem if it danced naked in front of me but I still had nominating rights.

Wow!
I feel like I wasted money on these lightening arresters. If no one is hurling bolts my way maybe I'll let Hellon sell them?

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We've made enough changes for now. Let's see how things work out before making any more. The dialog is great, but keep in mind it's for future consideration.

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Power is Maya, illusion.

Anyone who thinks power is a trip has not yet discovered themselves to be a slave to the responsibilities that go with what passes for power.

No one in the current mod team has the desire or madness to consider deleting any poetry, however banal it may seem, because it does not conform to someone's standard.

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As for comments, here is the most insulting -and the most honest - comment I have received. After getting over my ire, I rewrote the poem. Thanks:

"This is an interesting story, although I don't think I would classify it as 'poetry.'

I think there is at least one good poem in this, but it would need some work to pull it out."

I too got a similar comment once. 'Nice thoughts but definitely not poetry.' It was the only one liner that I found worthwhile in the long-run, its funny how I still remember it.

Personally I don't think there should be a freeze on changes. Mainly because Janis may have absconded again in a few months (hopefully not!) and if changes still need to be made I personally don't think having made recent changes is a good reason not to make more if required. Then again, we could be debating changes until this time next year and end up right back where we started, and everybody has opinions and ideas, so I can see where the mods are coming from. I'm sure the mods will have some common sense anyway not to rush changes all at once nor shun possible changes altogether. I guess its a balance. Its a good 'problem' to have considering the years spent only dreaming of possible changes that could be made :)

Uhmm

Mr. Larry.

do you know if after rewriting your poem, did it became a "classify" as a "poetry" in the eyes of the one that left that comment?

EDIT:
" I do still think more than three praiseworthy comments is necessary for new members to gain their nominating status"

In this particular case, It should be applied to everyone not just to the newbies. :)

If we do end up resetting the number of praised poems to zero, we would have to come up with a NEW way to nominate poems, until there's a sufficient number of senior members.

This temporary method might actually prove to be better and fairer than the normal method. We could, for instance, submit our OWN poems to a judge, who will screen out poorer writes, before sending them along to the other judges.

As I've stated numerous times, ANY nomination process is inherently unfair and flawed. I have had many of my best poems go un-nominated, and I'm sure others have had this same experience.

As I've stated numerous times, ANY nomination process is inherently unfair and flawed. I have had many of my best poems go un-nominated, and I'm sure others have had this same experience.

I agree Kiko. People tend to nominate who they like.Some people only nominate members from their own club. Some others only comment their friends and there are those who you can write an in-depth comment, the best analysis and they simply ignore you.

I'm kind of confused..

People do nominate what they like.. because they found the poem worth to nominate.. isn't that right?

and many do comment on their friends but because their friends comment on their poems.. So its just a cycle.. You comment and I comment. Also sometimes some comment according to what type of comment the reader left.. A constructive or a just one liner.

So let's take that into consideration as well...

Thought, I do admit that I comment mainly on those on my club but if I have time I look around the site. As for nomination goes, I take a long time to decide on which poem to nominate. :/

So if it is a cycle of I comment you and you comment me what happens to those who don't have friends, who aren't popular, who don't belong to clubs?

Thats why nominations have flaws as Kiko said. I like is a subjective thing. I like Brazilian poetry.Do you like it?

Well, that's the reason why there are people like you and some others, They don't just comment on those who comment on their poetry. :)

Edit:
Brazilian poetry, I haven't read any. But if you could suggest me a some I would gladly read them.

I make no difference here.

Edit:

I comment Colm.He has never commented me.
I comment Kiko and he has never commented me.

Of course you make a difference.

You commented on mine and gave me good advice and I thank you for that.
Though, I apologize. I couldn't leave a constructive comment because you use some words and metaphors that were out of my reach. But I do consider you an amazing poet. That's why I think you can write a constructive comment easily.

Yes, I can.This is what I do and teach.

Exactly! You are a teacher! Your comments on poetry must be extremely valuable. You should be swooping on new or unknown members, encouraging them with comments that support, compliment, and deliver positive criticism, not refusing to ever comment again.
Don't deny PnQ the knowledge and insightfulness you have all because you don't like a rule that's changed.

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Also, I was just thinking about friendship on PnQ. It can't be denied that friends often comment, vote for, and nominate poems by friends. But it might not be because they're friends.
I think sometimes friendship is the outcome, and similar or complimentary taste in many things, including poetry, is the factor.

There are people I consider my friends on PnQ whom I rarely nominate, sometimes never. It's because their poetry does not fit my taste. To say that I nominate my friends because they're my friends, regardless of the quality of their poems, would be inaccurate.

To be fair, in a list of 10 poems, I would be most inclined to read a poem by someone I recognize first, but that doesn't mean I would ignore the other 9 poems.

And so what?

Edit:

I am off duty here.

You Silvershoes are one in a million and I know you are cuz DDavid told me so.

I haven't denied but I will.

As for comments, here is the most insulting -and the most honest - comment I have received. After getting over my ire, I rewrote the poem. Thanks:

"This is an interesting story, although I don't think I would classify it as 'poetry.'

I think there is at least one good poem in this, but it would need some work to pull it out."

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Yes, I remember that. I can be brutally honest sometimes. :)

I'm not as bad as Auzy, though. He once commented:
"...your narration reads like a grade B novella...."

But the rest of it was very useful and insightful.

Haha, I think you've given me a brutal comment before, Kiko. Definitely made me tuck my pride, and I think I PM'd you with explanations (defenses).

Nothing like a reality check.

Auzy...There was someone I knew on here yearrrsss ago named auzy, very very honest with a comment, but you knew that if you asked him for one. I wonder if it's the same person. I noticed his old comment on one of my poems is gone now so he must have at least deleted the account I knew him on.

Well it's taken me a while to read the posts from yesterday and today - most of which happened while I was sleeping or at work lol I'm still at work by the way just on my break :D

I think it's a great idea to have everyone write new comments to reach the nominating status. I think this would make it equal for everyone and no one is singled out or punished as Karla said.

I do think it's a good idea to leave the comments people have already made though on the site as people have spent time and effort writing them. The previous comments should stay and we should also be made to write so many praised comments to reach nominating status. It is a good idea to "refresh"

The only thing I would suggest is if we make it 10 praised comments - then we should leave it as 10. If we make it five then we should leave it as five. I only think this because if we do make it one number and then there's another decision to change it by increasing it - there will be another week without nominations and also more arguments because people will have to start over again.

I hope this makes sense?

x

It does make sense.

It seems that giving mods the ability to remove past praise of comments is not a good idea. I have changed my views on it as well and no longer support the idea.

"I think it's a great idea to have everyone write new comments to reach the nominating status. I think this would make it equal for everyone and no one is singled out or punished as Karla said.

I do think it's a good idea to leave the comments people have already made though on the site as people have spent time and effort writing them. The previous comments should stay and we should also be made to write so many praised comments to reach nominating status. It is a good idea to "refresh"

The only thing I would suggest is if we make it 10 praised comments - then we should leave it as 10. If we make it five then we should leave it as five. I only think this because if we do make it one number and then there's another decision to change it by increasing it - there will be another week without nominations and also more arguments because people will have to start over again."

In reference to the first two quoted paragraphs, I am in agreement with you. Your suggestion in the last paragraph is absolutely worth considering.

Awesome.

Also woops. I accidentally posted my comment on the other thread. I hope I don't start something on there lol it looked like it was a good conversation!

I deleted it, no worries. I've done that before!

Thanks :) Now my other comment looks out of place lol

"Haha, I think you've given me a brutal comment before, Kiko."

Naw, I would never do that to you, Jane.
Larry, yes, but not you. You must be confusing me with someone else. :)

Nooooooo, I just tried to delete the out of place comment and deleted the whole thread. Wow, I am so embarrassed. My humblest apologies to everyone who posted on the thread. I will post a new one now.

Can't believe I just did that.

Oh sorry I should have kept my mouth shut about the out of place comment lol

No! That wasn't your fault at all, I have never done that before... I tried to go back to the thread and it wasn't there, then I realized what I did.
Oh wow, my cheeks are burning red.

Awww it's OK.

Everyone makes mistakes!

Don't feel bad. I just made one too! lol

Thank you for trying to make me feel better and for not being upset. Someone should get upset though. What I did was extremely careless... I promise to be more careful, guys. I know how deleting a thread accidentally must look.

"Grrr"

Sorry that's all the energy I have to be angry lol I didn't sleep properly last night.

A comment saying that a poem isn't a poem?
Sounds like Bob to me.

Had it been Bob I would have PMd him directly.

At the time, though I did not know Kiko from Nicko, so I fumed in silence.

Then I reread the poem & thought: %#*#$* &@%^*%& %#%^#@%^$* crap, he's right.

I think I got one of those Bob comments once... but it made me accept that there are people with really different poetic preferences, and that's just the way it is.

Isn't it funny how the negative ones stick with you more? I get a lot of really thoughtful, lovely comments from thoughtful, lovely people. Many of them are memorable. But the bad ones are just a thorn in the side of the ego! Like this, on one of my love poems that I actually quite liked for once:

"There has got to be more spunk in that peom you have got to feel it inside of you work harder. Put something deeper in that peom make it sound realistic if you know what i mean."

I was going to put some wise comment about accepting criticism from all sides, but on second thought that one still irks me a bit. Haha!

But really. You can always work harder as a writer, I suppose.