Message to All Members

Unfortunately for the peacefulness of this site, I never seem to be around when petty arguments heat up and insults start slinging. You do far too good of a job of egging each other on.

Next time it happens, and if I see it, you will be penalized. You will be appropriately reprimanded for failing to conform to PnQ rules; rules that you have agreed to follow by signing up as a member, and by remaining one.

You are free to be here. Free to voice your thoughts.
You are not free to break this website's rules.

Let the moderators do their jobs.

Jeez...

You can smell the irony a mile away mainly because you used to champion the idea of free speech...

Big Brother is all around us....MUST we have it here too

And besides its good to be honest about what you think, even if insults starts slinging...If people's pride are hurt because they are in the losing side of the argument then its on them because they chose to involve themselves in it...

I "hope" this post isn't deleted, but if it is, it'll be another notch on the irony bedpost...Lol

It's the petty, rude, overly personal insults that have no need to be any part of this website, especially on these boards. If you can't have a conversation with someone (debate, heated or not etc) without throwing some insults and name-calling, that's just sad. People have been getting away with a lot and the mods just edit posts etc.. with 100 warnings. Big friggin' deal someone gets 100 warnings - if nothing happens, no penalties given or any reprimanding, what is the use of the warning?

There are rules on this place for a reason, Janis put most of them in place - and harassment is one that is not supposed to be tolerated, but it has been. It's not shutting down free speech. You can still say and do a LOT of things - but why people feel you can make racial slurs or name call people under the name of free speech absolutely kills me. That's not free speech, people need to educate themselves.

I for one am glad to see the mods cracking down - no matter if it's against a friend or foe. These boards have gotten so ridiculous and petty that many have stopped posting, because if they say something that is misconstrued you will get an automatic argument that turns into name calling. How ridiculous is that when most of us are adults here?

Lol, Noir, I really don't see this as a Big Brother situation. I think you're going a bit overboard. Britt's got it right.

We need good rules to keep us in line with the Universe which has perfect rules -what we say reflects on our character or personality and if we say negative things we pump negative energy into the site and undermine the integrity of the site. We must be more tolerant and do some introspection and do our bit to make this a happy place for everyone ..............

The integrity of the site will never be achieved if people deliberately ironize another member, downrate poems without a reason, don't respect each other's opinion and above all, write offensive poems disrespecting another member.
Poetry is nothing here because people place their interests first.

Karla: The reason people down-rate poems is because they can do it anonymously. If they were required to identify themselves, the down-rating would cease.

Noir: Have you ever visited "topix.com?" It's basically an un-moderated site, and every thread turns into verbal warfare.

" It's basically an un-moderated site, and every thread turns into verbal warfare."

Ick. Sounds toxic.

If a verbal warfare is what you so desire, the website Kiko mentioned might be the perfect place for you (you, as in anyone).

In poetry comments, we penalize comments that criticize the poet, not the poem. So too we should and will penalize posts that criticize the poster (via name-calling, belittlement, and scorn), not the post.

If someone says something you disagree with, state why. Explain yourself maturely. It's excellent practice for situations that arise in "the real world."
Don't make it personal and irrelevant. If someone does make it personal and irrelevant, let the mods handle it, don't seek revenge and think that's going to fly with us simply because, "she/he started it!" That's silly, and you know it is.

Noir, this isn't about me or your interpretation of my history, it's about the website... and if you haven't realized, I'm a moderator.
I'm here to moderate.

Jordan: This site is a microcosm to society at large, with different ideologies and cultures are as diverse as the reality stars that prostitute themselves for our amusement...

There is a very thin line of what constitute "respect" in this site, what many see as debate, other call insult... I am not defending people who outright insult the person's poem or his/her identity... but I will defend those people who honestly interpret your character based on what you post...

If you are a fool because you are posting inane posts, I will tell it to you... That is what I am defending, the right to say my opinions of you based on what you bring into the discussion...

Noir, this isn't about me or your interpretation of my history, it's about the website... and if you haven't realized, I'm a moderator.I'm here to moderate."

You know when I read that Jane... I basically yelled "No, really"... You a moderator being here to moderate... I wish this site had smileys, because this quote seriously needs a 'rolls eyes' smiley... And I'm the type who never uses smileys... Just Lol's

The irony here Jane is that you used to complain about the system... In fact you had many tiffs with Bob and had many threads attempting to change the broad generalisations and rigid enforcement what we can or cannot say...

But if I channel Celie from the Color Purple "You ast Mr.__ to change the way he treatin you, but you the same when you told Harpo to beat Sofia."

Yeah my interpretation of you is based on what you say Jane. You are part of the system and even enforcing it, when once upon a time you actively fought against it...

* Edit
On second thought, I don't want to get involved either..

Do want to say one thing, though: when you have trouble comprehending the other person, then try and see it from their point of view. How would you go about doing what they have taken upon them?

* EDIT.. Don't want to get involved....

Ingrid: With your logic of empathizing with someone, if it was applied in society, in some areas it may work, but you cannot fathom the understanding of every mind you have difficulties with.

That is I guess the beauty of human nature. Everyone's different...

If I was in Jane's shoes, I would first "well" not be in them since her shoe size is a tad smaller than mine...I can try but it'll hurt!

But seriously, I would change the system, where excluding swear words and insults to the person's identity and works, anything goes.

If you come and argue with someone, expect consequences, we are not here to baby an individual...And this isn't a nanny state.

Moderators should moderate, not side with one extremes, as they have done. Be neutral should be their motto, and like God and the angels, stay out of it, and watch from the sidelines.

You obviously haven't been around in a while, because we have battled months of personal insults and petty arguments, and only being issued warnings from mods. The site is very free and laid back.. and swear words are allowed as long as they aren't directed at someone (example, I can say I feel like bitching today, but I cannot call someone a bitch).

You obviously haven't been paying attention, because no where is this place a nanny state. I understand you like to play devils advocate and stir the discussion up... But it just song work this time. Things have been drastically different.

Noir, I agree with Britt on this. This site has changed very much. If you liked it as it used to be, it may no longer be your favorite hang out place, that is up to you to decide. The atmosphere is indeed very relaxed and laid back.

As for the need to show understanding: it is the only way to peace on any level. If you can understand the motives behind someone's actions it is very hard to become angry or upset. You may not agree, but then it is not always your responsibility or place to decide the way things should be handled..

Noir: Personally, I very much support your views, as without a rebel's view there would be no discussion, reform or healthy criticism.

T-hormones are innate rebels.
E2-hormones seek peace by nature.
(Not a sexist comment, just what is known about how hormones affect the brain).

Re your comment to Jane: You can smell the irony a mile away mainly because you used to champion the idea of free speech...

I like your thoughts very much. If there were no Gandhi, ML King, Mandela and the likes of, the World's most prominent champions of free speech, there would have been no liberation.

Re: Jane's comments:
-"You are free to be here. Free to voice your thoughts.
-You are not free to break this website's rules.
-If someone says something you disagree with, state why. Explain yourself maturely. It's excellent practice for situations that arise in "the real world."
Don't make it personal and irrelevant."

^She is only emphasizing what the mods viewpoint is in all this, not her own, to uphold the website's rules.
PnQ Rule #1 The first and most important rule is to be respectful to all members. Being disrespectful to other members will not be tolerated.
Rule #7 Any swearing or vulgar slang is strictly forbidden.
Rule #8 Harassment will not be tolerated.

So, I do not think one needs to see this warning as a change in rules. They probably existed as originally designed by its creator Janis, but were probably never enforced strictly. Lately, there may have been reasons which the mods know best that led to this heavy handed warning, perhaps to dissuade people repeatedly violating rules 1,7 & 8.

So, I see no big departure in the policy of healthy discussions and debates, as long as they do not get to vicious personal attacks.
Perhaps, the only thing they should not be doing in excess is deleting posts which are not personal attacks but to them seem to be unrelated to the forum........that is not a violation of any PnQ rule, is it Jane? It is probably a grey area. There are many forums which are started on one topic and lead to another. That should not matter, unless they are too distracting. Sometimes these new subtopics teach a hidden lesson to the readers, of how people's innate behaviors influence their thinking and writings.

Anyway, open discussions backed by solid logic, should always be welcome. We do not want to be castrated or neutered, do we? That only works for controlling animal instincts, not a revolutionary or counter-revolutionary thinker's brain.
So Noir and Jane, you are both correct, in my opinion.

I see that rule #12 has been revised and I have nothing but respect for the new team of moderators. I have missed these discussions and even Noir's comments on how boring my posts are. Poets are passionate about their ideas, and one of my favorite Voltaire was given credit for inspiring the French revolution. We sometimes stoop to the level of lawmakers and engage in personal attacks in the guise of fairness. Voltaire also was credited by many for agreeing with a famous quote.
http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=133089

Who said I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it?

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_I_may_not_agree_with_what_you_say_but_I_will_defend_to_the_death_your_right_to_say_it#ixzz1mfFb5hlo
The first time I recall hearing that quote was in a recording by a poet who was in prison due to lack of moderation that caught up in a different way than the rumors of Whitney Houston's demise

But, as silvershoes has stated we all agreed to be subject to moderation

I do admit to feeling bullied by moderators in the past but have not felt that way for a while

There are areas of the internet that promote solidarity among common folk. Perhaps some of you might gain wisdom and insight from these places. How can we fight for our rights as human beings if we can't even speak in a civil tone on the internet with people we've never met before?

Noir, I guess you're right in a way.

I just think that sometimes things should be left be. I see this site as more of an art-based site and just never see the need for debates or snide remarks toward anyone. That includes you, mods, or anyone else.

I come here for fun, not to listen to people complain or fight. There are a few around here who love to fight...That's why I usually shy away from the main forums. Maybe we should just make some sort of 'arena' forum where people can kick each others' asses all day and keep them from clogging up the good parts of the site with malice.

What I'm trying to say is that I keep my petty arguments to myself and I don't poke or prod at others here, especially not mods. They're volunteers for chrissakes. They come here and keep this place running for us (god knows Janis is never around), and you get people who don't take into consideration the fact that perhaps this site is more of a job to them than a little fun corner in the world, even if they do enjoy it. And you know what's REALLY annoying about jobs? All of the bull that people come up with to get in your way while you're just trying to work.

Two cents.

Peace.

Maybe we should just make some sort of 'arena' forum where people can kick each others' asses all day and keep them from clogging up the good parts of the site with malice.

^^
sounds like a good idea to me, just not in such a way minors can also lurk and see what new language they can pick up on online;) So it should be an adult only part of P&Q..

Haha, a gladitorial corner of PnQ... I feel like it's been thought about before. : )

I'm really fine with threads going off topic. Chatting or off-topic remarks used to be deleted as "spam," but not so much anymore. The only time it becomes problematic is if we're trying to do a vote or something, or if we're looking for specific ideas and people start fighting.

I'm even fine with most arguing. I don't like to argue myself, but I think people should be able to do it as long as they are arguing about an actual topic, and their critique is leveled at that topic. Too often, "That's a dumb idea" turns into "you're a worthless individual with no good ideas."

In my opinion, the former could be tolerated, but not the latter.

I am just saying that if I want to say for example

"Listen Sosu, you my dear are as vacuous as the posts you apparently one-finger typed, seeing as it takes so long to post back... Please if you have anything more to say, DON'T say it out loud as you type... Think about it for an hour at least then post your words, than Microsoft Word it, so it can be legible,than post it...Let me at least be challenged..."

Would that be punishable by penalties? Because really Sosu deserves to be called out for wasting my time...Ya know!

Warning, post deleted or edited then penalty if repeated.

Noir, you're hilarious, sir. But I think you know the answer to your own question. ;)

I can understand the frustration, Noir. I used to be that way too, although I rarely shared it with anyore, and certainly not online. But one day I suddenly realized I had no right to hurt others with my opinion about them. Who am I to make that distinction between worthy and unworthy contributions to this forum, site or life in general. The blinders came off and to tell you the truth, I feel a whole lot better now I am no longer at war...I even think I was at war with myself, mostly;)

"Listen Sosu, you my dear are as vacuous as the posts you apparently one-finger typed, seeing as it takes so long to post back... Please if you have anything more to say, DON'T say it out loud as you type... Think about it for an hour at least then post your words, than Microsoft Word it, so it can be legible,than post it...Let me at least be challenged..."

^^^

Very polite... very condesending and...it did make me laugh! (I pondered on this answer for 2 hours BTW....wanted to make sure I got it just right).

Ingrid, it has been amazing as an outsider to see someone undergo such an intrinsic transition. I'm truly impressed with the way you handle yourself now, and your wisdom in the last several months has made me forget entirely if you were ever different than how you are now.
Props.

Noir, you're being rhetorical.

Anyway, this isn't about who is correct or incorrect. There are rules on this site. Moderators are here to enforce them. The rules, in my opinion, used to be bent and abused by some moderators, in ways that were unfair and biased... now they are rarely enforced at all, which is stirring up new problems.
There has to be some middle ground, and that middle ground is enforcing rules unbiasedly.
I have faith in the entire mod squad. We can and will be unbiased, and we can and will be laying down the law.

Yes, this is a warning, and no, you can't say you haven't been warned.
Don't wait to be penalized. Start respecting the rules and avoid penalties altogether.

How long did that take you to write...just as a matter of interest ?:)

A while. I'm a bit drunk, what can I say.

Should probably not post anything :)

Hey...you're allowed to be human....it's Saturday night...well it is in Oz anyway....I was joking Jane????

Friday night... well Saturday morning now. Yes, I am human! So are you, and a lovely one you are.

Ok I'm off. Goodnight.

:8-/

When inebriated the poetry seems to flow .........so I'm enjoying this Heineken -it soothes my soul on a saturday afternoon ........

New method... whenever anyone is getting slightly out of line, the warning will be Larry's "gent looking over glasses" look.

I have glasses too, so I'm qualified to give it.

Sibs, I may have to adopt you. I have two other daughters your age you would likely fit in with.

"Listen Sosu, you my dear are as vacuous as the posts you apparently one-finger typed, seeing as it takes so long to post back... Please if you have anything more to say, DON'T say it out loud as you type... Think about it for an hour at least then post your words, than Microsoft Word it, so it can be legible,than post it...Let me at least be challenged..."

Sosu must have had his/her account suspended along with many other unknown poets
If Sosu is an unknown poet or a soldier, who is to judge how vacuous this anonymous being is?
I suggest that if Sosu was allowed back at this site Sosu would deserve the same respect as anyone who whines about being a victim of condescending remarks.

"In the special Olympics win or lose you are still regarded" unknown

I gave someone the look over the glasses (I was writing something down and they said something so I looked up) and they were like wow, you're gonna be a great mom, you have 'the look' down.

I used to get that look all the time. Super creepy.

I think we should all appreciate the fact that the mods don't moderate as Janis wishes, because his rules are a bit tighter.

Thanks Jane:)

During the few years I have been a member here I have become a whole new person. I wonder if there are other members who feel the same. Somehow I found a way out of this pattern I was in..and I feel writing has helped me to do that. I had not written anything prior to the first poem I posted on here. In retrospect, it was the best decision I ever made.