It's been 9 painful harsh years.

Today marks the 9th anniversary of the illegal occupation of Iraq, and the nations of the world seem to have to forgotten all about it.

Since March 19,03 Iraq have suffered from major agriculture and pollution issues with the the destruction of almost all religious and historical sites.

almost 33% of the children suffer from malnutrition,
70% have no access to water to adequate water supply, 80% without proper sanitation, around 350 sites highly contaminated with Uranium, and 3/5 children are born with major defects in the most contaminated areas.

more than 2 million people have lost their lives, and 5 millions orphaned, the invasion left Iraq with 1 million widows, over 1,8 million people have been left disabled, and 8 million people were left in need of emergency aid, 4 million people fled, and almost 2.5 million were left displaced inside of Iraq, 43% of the population now suffer from complete and absolute poverty, and over 40% of the population have fled.

Right now, Iraq suffers from a highly corrupted government, that continues to do abrupt arrests, assassinations, abductions, and suicidal bombings and prisoners remained tortured with an education and health systems that are lacking in every aspect.

Was Iraq in a good situation, economically and socially before the invasion?

No it wasn't Kevin, But If in you're head, That justifies this horrible illegal occupation and this amount of lives lost.

Then I don't know what to make about that.

Kevin there is a proverb I have learned from western TV channels... IF YOU FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE, ALL WHAT YOU GET IS A BIGGER FIRE

That is exactly what you are doing/saying..

I think you guys are assuming too much about Kevin's opinions based on a small question he asked...

Then again, what do I know.

Oh Please, silvershoes

I know what Kevin thinks based on the post in the OTHER board about religion thread....

^ edited: this would sound dorky after you edited your post

Ha, well I haven't read the religion thread, so never mind.

Excuse my awkwardness in this thread. Ahem. Goodbye.

I hear you, Rabea..and you are right. I agreed on him setting the oil fields on fire, because it was the only reason they invaded the country, not to help the 'poor people' of Iraq. No one cares about the helpless victims on this earth, unless they have something of value to share;)

Yes Jane your statement was..ahem..rather akward..putting this down to the fact that you are unwell right now?

aside from that..Rabea?

Right now, Iraq suffers from a highly corrupted government, that continues to do abrupt arrests, assassinations, abductions, and suicidal bombings and prisoners remained tortured with an education and health systems that are lacking in every aspect.
^^^^

Who are you blaming for this...you didn't make it clear in your statement and..according to your profile you don't live there either..are you a refugee???

I Don't blame anyone for this, Iraq has always been fueld with Religious entity disputes, even prior to the occupation, I just felt like paying tribute to those who lose their lives in a war they had nothing to do with.

But to answer your question, Yes I am a refugee, Although not Iraqi, my family had to leave Palestine since 1948 and been away from home since then.

I guess Kevin was asking to know whether these numbers were due to the war or the country had it coming anyway. Relevant question. I, for one, thought it's interesting the time frame you've picked, Rabea, when talking about the situation in Iraq (from the date of the invasion/war/aggression till now) making it seem like the the key factor here and at the same time saying, you don't blame anyone.

In truth nothing has hurt the Arabs more than the Arabs. We count the years during and after wars, the numbers of aggression and intervention acts (only that of the West, too, I may add) but we never think where to go from here. I fear we're turning into people who still talk until now of gas chambers and the Holocaust and justify every awful misdeed they do or is being done to them by it, but most of all I fear we'll never get over it. I guess it's like 9/11, it's almost as if people are not only afraid to forget the wrong that has been done to them but who they think have done it, but in our case, it's more crucial because we use such to justify why we're always lagging behind, be it economically or socially, when we should really be looking in the mirror.

so, it's been 9 years and yes, it was horrible, awful and never should have happened, but it did. Yet the most important question is.. What have we done in return? other than blaming, watching and counting, that is. We have countries rich enough to help a 100 Iraqs, but no, they'd rather waste fortunes on belly dancers. We have minds, we have resources, we have labor force (more than we need) .. but no, we think, why go to Iraq when you can go to Europe or the USA? (so both destinations are fine now?). We even happen to sit and joke claiming ''the only thing Arabs agreed on is to disagree'' in mirth after each and every disastrous meeting at the Arab League where the heads of our ''respectful'' governments insult each other (by the mother no less) before angrily leaving. No surprises here that we do not have a voice on the international level.

Perhaps I'm wrong but don't you think it's time we let go and start moving forward? In the last 50 years countries much worse off than us have built themselves from scratch. Look at South Korea, look at Turkey, hell, look at Germany.. after the second world war it was in ruins. Needless to say there was no love lost between it and France neither (the death toll in both countries was tremendous), but they moved on. Prussia, which was even considered the heart of Germany at one time, as far as I know, now belongs to Poland or so. You don't see Germany swearing to remove Poland (or whatever country that has a part of Prussia now) from the map, but after years of integration, now they have free movement of goods and people. We, of course, are still watching and finding excuses.

One last thought, If Sadam was living he might have turned Iraq into another Syria, he might have not. It's debatable. But then, I guess people here heal better and forget much easier when they're killed by their own army then that of other countries, don't they? Not to mention other Arab neighboring countries sleep much easier, too. It's almost as if people don't care much what's being done, but who's doing it. I'd like to see someone counting the years people have suffered and are still suffering in some African countries due to malnutrition, lack of water and political instability, too.

Norhan, to be completely honest my intentions with this post was to pay tribute to the lives lost and causalities
in all forms that have happened from this Invasion, just like the way people offered their condolences in the 9/11 thread.

You provide such a pessimistic answer though, but i'm going to try and point out somethings for you, first of all, Some of us "Arabs" have lost their since of nationalism, and patriotism, @ some point or another, I know I've been there, you might as well, considering the hell that is being raised in our dear beloved Syria or Egypt,, I don't blame you, Hell, I wouldn't blame your father or mine for feeling that way, It's been 50 or more years that we have almost put nothing but shame to our names, The rest of the world have been far more superior, but that doesn't mean it's the people's fault, It's not my fault, nor yours, it's the fault of the corruption that have taken place in most of our countries.

""""""""
In truth nothing has hurt the Arabs more than the Arabs
_________
That's true, I could agree to that up to a certain level my dear sister, But it's our duty to count the years and causlites, and if you ask me why then it's quite a simple answer, We have to learn, we have to be thought to never trust that which is precious, to those that will not and can not value it, we have to learn the value of each life lost, each mother tortured, raped, and pillaged, we need to promise ourselves, promise that my children and yours, and their children after them will learn the one and only sole truth, which is, that our arms must thicken, and our shoulders most burden, so we can bear the responsibilities of protecting what is ours, to survive these bloody corridors of hell raised upon us from whatever which country decides it's time to invade a less powerful one, A child's mouth must only meet with the lips of it's mother, not the unforgiving edge of an ax, and the one's we loved and once adored, Must be buried in white cloth, not under tracks of hate, and the shelters we built should not be used to crash the same lives they give sanction too beneath them. that's why I will forever insist to count.
_________________________

so, it's been 9 years and yes, it was horrible, awful and never should have happened, but it did. Yet the most important question is.. What have we done in return?
___________________________
What have we done in return in completely irrelevant, then when the people are shackled into systems that would bury their existence if they decided to speak up, Remember sister, A True good leader knows it's the citizens that lead you, but does that apply on where we live? one hand on it's own wont clap and right now, Most of us are doing the right thing, Which is going down and protest, We all know it's a long way ahead of us, but we start somewhere,

______________________________
One last thought, If Sadam was living he might have turned Iraq into another Syria, he might have not. It's debatable. But then, I guess people here heal better and forget much easier when they're killed by their own army then that of other countries, don't they? Not to mention other Arab neighboring countries sleep much easier, too. It's almost as if people don't care much what's being done, but who's doing it.
____________________

too much generalizing in this post dear, IF in fact what you say is true, Then I don't see how the Syrian revolution took rise again after their 1st try back in 82, it's been exactly 1 year already and people have yet to be silent, even if it's blood they're paying, No one will forget any mass murder that took place, regardless of who did it.

What I really love about Israel and the Jews in particular is that it's impossible for a single Jew person not to know about the halloucst, They make sure it's enriched in everyone's memory and they make sure they revive that memory every year by making world wide events that honor the deaths that have happened in that time, they make sure no one will forget it,What don't I understand though, Is that how can a nation that once suffers do the same to someone else, yet sadly for us it's different, our youth doesn't know about Sabra And Chatila, They hardly know about what happened in the 67/73 war
they hardly know how Lebanon suffered from ethnic cleansing back in the 80s and it still paying it's dues today, that's a problem that the likes of me and you should be informing people about. Because Right now it seems as a look @ this situation in the rare view that our blood has no human value what so ever.

The Iraq war is the reason I will never again vote for another president.

It was more than just illegal. The invasion was based on outright lies and bogus intelligence reports, fabricated by George W. Bush and his Republican cronies. In addition to the thousands of Iraquis who died and many more thousands who were injured, more American soldiers died in Iraq than died in 9/11.

I love our current president, but I would never vote for him, because he did not conduct a thorough investigation on his predecessor. Bush should be tried for murder and crimes against humanity.

But that will never happen, which is why I think this country I live in is a joke.

I Love when our point of views meet down @ a certain point, I can't help but agree

I'd rather we (and others) find and focus on our humanism rather than our nationalism. It would do the whole world more good. But again, you're blaming others, so it's the fault of corruption not us, my avatar should answer you. We're much more weight and force than the elite or any other foreign interference or influence. If people have decided to help Iraq and rebuild it, it would have been done. If people have not approved the corruption (starting from paying bribes to turning an eye when it came to corrupt judges) it wouldn't have reached that level. We went with the flow and it's not pessimism, it's truth and reality. The good thing is, we can change that.

Governments wouldn't kill people who want to help and work in Iraq or Sudan or just do some volunteer work or donate money or help in any way. Are we talking about the same thing here?

What I meant mentioning Syria and Sadam/Iraq is the number of lives lost, since you said you're talking about causalities. As to your assumption that no one will forget those who died in Syria, well perhaps, but it'll be like this.. If the revolution succeeded people will celebrate it's success, if the country (god forbid) went to worse case people will blame those who've protested first place (they're already calling them traitors). With a post like yours for example, who do you think will be blamed? Unlike the Iraqi case, when it comes to internal bloodshed in the region (as in Arabs killing Arabs), we celebrate events, people come second place. Unless there is a clash between religions, here the followers of each religion know by heart the numbers they lost ONLY and the wrong that has been afflicted on them (not the one they did) and the others the same.

About Israel, you forget one thing, what remembering the holocaust gives them excuses for doing. Is that how you want to deal with others? Others that, I dare say, are also human and the only difference is that of the extent of their power and their ideology or religion (which they were probably born into). Not to mention that they (Israel) used the holocaust as a drive forward to become stronger and unite. We are using what's happening as a reason to explain the dreadful situation which we are in (on all levels) and accept it. A situation that, in truth, has little to do with the west than it has to do with us and our systems (which our part of us) and our will (or the lack of it).

You can count all you like, but you're doing no one good. You'll just become too heavy and bitter to ever function properly. You'll be destroying yourself inside out.

I agree with Kiko that the Iraqi war was both illegal and fabricated. I'm just saying that we, too, are responsible for it at some level, so are we when it comes to the situation it is now in.

Do you know the saying Can forgive but cannot erase?

You do talk some sense into my locked state of mind norhan, but I speak with the vision of someone who have been banned from their homeland and never step foot in it, And my dream is to live there someday, the sense of nationality is important to me because I have never felt it, You're Egyptian, and you live in Egypt, I don't have that privilege, and to accomplish that, I will never forget and should never forget.

I have Palestinian friends that go to and fro on vacations, Rabea. So why can't you?

Norhan I take my hat off to you. Its people like you that will make the difference and will drive your country forward. Yes we must remember our history remember our mistakes but look to the future learn from those mistakes, not drown in sorrow and misery wondering what might have been, blaming all in sundry.

Well Norhan, That's a personal issue that I'd love to explain to you alone, that's too much information to share, but I'd gladly Pm you.

And nicko, In the name of learning form our mistakes I don't see where anyone have actually learned anything, occupations still exist and invading countries is a trend for the past century, Excuse me for not seeing the world from your side, but what is right and beneficial for you can be wrong and very harming to me, Try to understand that and you'd realize that most of the worlds deillma's actually happen from that
I do understand that everyone have a very easy outgoing point of view about things, and that everybody actually wish everybody the best of things, But what you think is good and done by your name can be lethal. It has happened and I can point out alot of incidents.

''In the name of learning form our mistakes I don't see where anyone have actually learned anything''

Yes! Because we're blaming a foreign factor which we have no control on, had we looked at ourselves we would have learned something by now, but we wouldn't even accept that we are at fault. I wish Nicko's statement would become true, it'll be the best thing that has happened to us in decades.

Our mistake(s), or lets say some of them, was being too diverted, too separate and so weak as, both, political and economic powers when it comes to the international arena to even have a say. Had we had any weight, had we even all showed one agreed upon decision refusing the interference of the USA in Iraq and been serious about it, it wouldn't have happened. Had we later united in re-building Iraq it wouldn't have been in the condition it is in now. Did we even move any step closer to changing any of these facts in the last 9 years? No. We've just updated statics.

The only thing now hindering any foreign intervention in Syria is Russia and China (rather embarrassing that we aren't even in the picture, isn't it?).

I beg you pardon

The united nations or anyone will never venture into Syria my dear, Not because China and Russia are preventing that, it's a simple fact, if there isn't oil then the Nato will not bother, They need someone to pay them their war bill before they do anything, Syria Is not Uganda, where they magically discovered the equivalent of 2 millions barrels of oil and know they want to suddenly free the world from it's tyrants

Syria is on a limp, And it's the worst case scenario even if the revolution did prevail,
because With the Assad Regime, we're stock with what we have and people are paying the price, and if the revolution did in fact prevail, then The Allies of the world will venture into Syria making it a step closer to Destroying Iran. Which is what it will all come down to.

Kinda embarrassing and humiliating that we're not even in the picture, makes it more evident that our blood seems irrelevant.

Iraq's problems have been created by iraq, nobody else and no amount of finger pointing will change that...

Edited: nicko, I fail to see what's your point? To assume that all that has happend in Iraq is their fault doesn't even make sense, unless you can back what the hell you're trying to sau, then I can't even make sense of it, anyways it's a tribute thread, you don't have to pay your tributes if you don't want to, but I don't see how what you just said makes sense, it just doesn't.

Sorry but i must be missing something here, your first post hardly passes as a tribute, its more accusatory than anything...

Whatever the real reason for their problems, I think we can appreciate the struggles that Iraq has been through for the past decade. Even if it turned out to be the fault of that nation, people could hardly blame the average men, women, and children of the country. In all likelihood, they are the ones putting up with the brunt of the war, and haven't contributed to it in any way. Saying "they brought it on themselves" might work for pointing at government leaders, but they aren't the ones with the most to lose -they're just the ones with power. I can't imagine what it would be like to have to grow up in an occupied, war-torn country. My thoughts go out to everyone.

Actually Saudi Arabia (I thought you live there?) and Qatar have offered to pay the bill and they're supporting an intervention. There are arms being smuggled now, and have been for a while, inside the country. Russia and China however said they'd Veto if the issue is brought up in the Security Council. It's a ping-pong game now.

I think it's more the fault of other Arab countries than really that of Iraq. It can't be denied that they approved the intervention, or at least most of them did, my country for one did (on the government level). I wonder till when people on both sides of the world will continue to be played by governments, since both parties paid dearly when it came to people.

Sorry but i must be missing something here, your first post hardly passes as a tribute, its more accusatory than anything...

^^
I am not so sure, Nicko...When I read the first message in this thread I felt the sadness more than anything. I could see Rabea showing us how nothing good came out of the intervention in Iraq.

I won't deign that the US and its coalition partners should not have invaded Iraq. I think Bush did it under pretence. Bush had his own agenda.

Yet prior to that Iraq had invaded Iran to try and take control of Iran's oil, that war lasted 8 years with more than 1.5 million deaths. There has been massive instability in this region for many years.

I feel by Rabea singling out the invasion implies that this was the single cause of Iraq's woes in recent times. I'm not saying I don't have any sympathy for the innocents caught up in this mess of course I do. But some might say the invasion may have in fact stopped many more deaths and atrocities from occurring under Saddam Hussein... that is an unknown?

But if this is purely a tribute thread and that's what's intended then I'm with that. I just picked up on an accusatory undercurrent maybe I was wrong...

I feel that the intention was indeed that: a tribute...Rabea is not really the kind of person to use such a tone of voice, Nicko. He is an innocent victim of all the violence that has gone on for centuries in the Middle Eastern region, like so many millions of other civilians..I am glad he posted this, I for one did not know how bad it really was. We should share inside information like this always. People who live in certain areas know more than the ones who have to rely on the media..right?

Yes for sure many of us are insulated from what happens in many countries around the world, we are even insulated from what happens within our own countries. There is slavery and people trafficking within Australia where I live, that is fact.

I have travelled in Middle East for a few years. I have seen some of these things first hand. some of its not pretty I know.

I have also spoken on here with Rabea before, he makes a lot of sense and although I may differ on his views about Palestine, we get on..sorry about talking in the third person Rabea..ha