Contest Discussion

I was just told that the votes would not longer be posted publicly. I'm a little confused and wonder why this wouldn't be announced, and what the reason for it is?

The site about a year or two ago with all the changes decided as a majority vote to make the votes public for transparency reasons. While we can all assume everyone is being honest, it still shows that everyone is doing the right thing and it makes everyone accountable. So I don't get it?

I agree with Britt.

Edited: I agree with her, TOTALLY.

This was news to me, so I ran to the modroom.

It looks like this isn't a for-sure thing, just an idea that's getting passed around for dealing with our new weird scoring issues. I'm a little unclear on how it would help, so I can't really give more information, but I'm sure more is forthcoming.

But even if the glitch is still messing up, wouldn't we want to post the correct winners in the winners thread, with the right amount of points? It still keeps everything fair and transparent, we just don't have a "win" tag.. which I don't think people would argue with. Realistically it's just making sure it's all right.

I don't see why hiding the number of votes for each winner is necessary.

It's nearly impossible to sort out in a short Monday morning which votes are real. Nana posts the results based on the comments and ignores the ersatz points. Later they can be filtered out & posted if that's really needed.

I can't figure how hiding the points everyone has is going to help in fixing that glitch?

Um, not it's not. Judges are supposed to (or were supposed to before) send in their comment and their vote along with it

ex:

10 pts
poem 1 by poet 1.

You could go off of that every week, and match it up. Then you'll see someone is "off" and explain votes carried over and people will understand as it's a glitch that Janis needs to fix now. It's five seconds of organization.

-------
"It looks like this isn't a for-sure thing, just an idea that's getting passed around for dealing with our new weird scoring issues"

Sib, it sounds like it is for sure thing since the votes weren't posted and I was told by two people that they wouldn't be. It all seems odd that it's all being decided like this.

I know it doesn't seem like a big deal, but we can't see what everyone does/decides. It seemed like it was going to try to be swept under the rug.

Well, I have the sam question, but...the other way around..

how would showing the points help ? I don't get it, whether it's a 10 or 7...is it the point we look for or the comment and H'M...etc.. perhaps none of these. but the points in the 1st place are to result in having 3 particular winners on the front page, regarding the total points...gained.

No need to post each poem, along with the vote it got, unless we have trust issues here...that's a different case.

I think not showing points would save us much useless drama when things get messed, and I think poems that didn't go to the front page, are better not to be rated with "points" but that's just where "I" stand regardin this idea, it doesn't represent what others are thinking of, nor saying that's how things "should be" we don't think alike, so just sharing my point of view.

It's accountability and transparency. And it's what everyone voted on before. You can't just decide you don't like a majority vote and do away with it (not YOU in particular lol)

If we don't post it and there IS a mess up, no one would know about it. So it seems dishonest. It would look like I had won last week, when in fact I did not, and then we see people with a bunch of comments and winners with none. I understand it wasn't an issue this time, but what about next week?

Everything is being decided nowadays without us agreeing or disagreeing. To me, that's unfair. I know we aren't but random members, but we still are the community and we have the right to know what's going on, am I wrong?

'It seemed like it was going to try to be swept under the rug.'
^
100% true. When Britt asked Nana about the points, her post was directly deleted and she got a PM about it. So it all was decided to be secretly. I don't know why.

I insist to know how this thing is going to help fixing that damn glitch? Janis isn't able to fix it?

Without our agreement...come on :) I mean, it's a website with an owner and Mods who are responsible for it.. true so far ? we joined the site after agreeing on the terms, that didn't read "members contribute in the desicions made for the sake of the website" it's not elections!

there's this weekly contest, judges vote on nominted poems, so that 3 ones in particular go to the front page, the points don't resemble anything else in my opinion, whether shared or not that doesn't really effect the result.

And not talking about every glitche isn't dishonesty, it's avoiding stirring drama, while fixing things. As you saw last week, knowing about the glitch didn't really help. not at all actually, why not let the things that go wrong, behind the scenes, get fixed behind the scenes.

And enjoy reading the comments those judges left for us...peacefully. Transperency isn't in knowing how many points we got from each judge...it's in the quality of the comment he/she leaves explaining why did they think an X poem is eligible to be on the front page.

I am not ass kissing mods, or underesitmating us, as members, I am just saying, each got their own role regarding the website and how it runs, if we are to interfer in all the details, things would go out of hands.

"As you saw last week, knowing about the glitch didn't really help"

Because it was the first week, and it didn't make sense, since no one said "hey there is a glitch", and it seemed to all be covered up weird.

Now, we all know there is a glitch so we know we can expect it and are just waiting for Janis.

I find it funny how NOW the tune is "Janis and the mods" when before it was all "mods are here to enforce rules, that's it! members get a say always!". That doesn't matter anymore?

Who said so..I'm a member, I didn't say this is how Janis or the Mods are putting things, I am just expressing my thoughts on this subject XD nothing more...nothing less either.

"we joined the site after agreeing on the terms, that didn't read "members contribute in the desicions made for the sake of the website" it's not elections!"

That is what I was replying to.

We can go back to the way things are run before if that's how people want it, but I remember it taking a good, solid YEAR before things were smoothed out and members felt like they had a say. That was taken away here.. that's the issue.

I guess I don't really have anything else to say on the issue, this is why I try to stay out of the main boards. I'm not trying to stir crap up, but I just know how hard everyone worked before and it seems more and more that weird stuff is happening and people aren't liking it. I'll go back to hiding in my club since I'm odd man out :)

Members felt like they had a say. That was taken away here.. that's the issue
^

is it really that way ? I am not sure if you guys are members of other websites, that are just as active as this place, where members has no say in ANYTHING, not even in how and why the poems on the home page are posted.

Not saying its HOW things should be HERE, it's a different place, and to each his own rules and relations.. but to feel like we dont have a say...just because we shouldn't control every single detail..that's a bit odd. Yet I already said, we don't think or see things the same way...

I don't know, I'll stop here as well, this is useless, the mods shall decide whether the points will be added or not, I don't mind either way, no harm...no benefits..

"I don't know, this is useless, the mods shall decide whether the points will be added or not, I don't mind either way, no harm...no benefits.."

But the mods didn't decide when some of them didn't even know about it.

Will be added*

meant... future tense, next minute is future lol, I'll be waiting for a pm. Regarding nxt week..or even this.

yet now, I should sleep :/
tc

Sounds very arbitrary without the full knowledge of the mod squad, which is interesting as there are only 5

I think this started as an idea that has gone through the rumor mill and comes out sounding more sinister than it is. When I first looked in the mod room after seeing Britt's initial post, I didn't see people plotting, I just saw "someone had this idea. What do you think?"

I think the idea was presented because it would look more organized to have the winners represented by the front page. What we have now is a big hodgepodge of phantom votes, judges who quit after a week, forget to vote, accidentally vote for the wrong poem, forget to comment, etc. and it's having the effect that the people on the front page are not always the ones that the judges meant to elect. Posting winners without the votes would do away with the suspicions and speculations surrounding the numbers, like "this one won with few votes, somehow," and stuff like that.

I've been in the mod room, though, and I want to say that, really, truly, there isn't anything shady going on. We're not trying to influence wins, just clearly represent what people vote for.

THAT SAID. I would rather still see votes attached to the poems. It's a messier effect, yeah, but sometimes trying to reflect the truth is more complicated than glossing it over. I know the contest hasn't been conforming to expectations lately, but if we can keep our dedicated judges and get Janis to check on the glitches, I think things will settle down. If I had my way, I'd rather have the whole messy process open for everyone to see. I would just want to trust that people viewing all the votes give us and Nana the benefit of the doubt if it's looking like things aren't adding up some week, because chances are we are just as in the dark as you.

Let me clarify, Britt's post being deleted was a misunderstanding on my part.

It is taken care of. She asked for a mod to delete her post and I thought she meant both of them since they were right together and she started this thread.

I have both privately and publicly apologized. I misunderstood, I am sorry, nothing fishy going on.

I brought it to the mod room as a means of getting a handle on the weird votes until Janis takes care of them. Nothing shady, just trying to have the results page reflect what the judges vote & only what the judges vote. I really can't see how posting a poem & then saying to the author "Oh, your poem really wasn't voted on, it was a mistake." helps anyone.

All good then...

I dont see the harm in letting us see the points. Unless there is a reason you don't want us to see them. WHY TODAY?

I would rather know I won by a glitch than not.. it wasn't a big deal, but it sucks for the real winners to not get to know.

Sooooo can there be a compromise somewhere in here?

Personally I love seeing the comments and the scores...the weekly contest have inspired me so much and has really given me something to "work for"...I strive to write better for it, just because I think the whole thing is really cool to get to be on the front page, and to get votes, and to get a little win icon next to it!!...

However like Nana said what does it help to see the votes vs. not seeing them? I think the only thing that matters about seeing them is the honesty part. And catching the glitches like we have this pass week.

But can the compromise come somewhere between there? If you don't want to post the comments/votes ok...can't make everyone happy...However, can the secrecy stop and if a glitch is found or if the wrong winner is selected, can that just be brought to our attention right away? Rather than bring it to a mod room, discuss it, or whatever the long process is? (No sarcasm intended, I really dont know haha!)

Like I said, I love seeing the votes and comments, I love seeing if what I voted for won and I love the contest part about this site just because its fun! But if posting the results ends, can we just ask if there is any misunderstanding, mistake, glitch, etc, please alert the members of the site as soon as possible that way we all know its being worked on?

I'd be ok with that! I don't think these things should be that big of a deal if honesty is truly given. (Which I believe it has)

We are not saying the comments stop, just posting the points.

With the website not properly working I want it stressed to ALL of our judges that it is very important to get your votes and comments into the proper places by the deadline.

Right now we can not have an "I voted, but I was not able to pm my votes/comments to anyone" because we want to make sure that the appropriate poets receive recognition.

So maybe the idea is to post the votes that are received from judges, but not post votes that are unaccounted for (from the site glitch phantoms)? Because I would be fine with that. We could still mention if there were issues, but it might avoid some of the confusion.

I'm fine with whatever so long as the process is open, and the winners are chosen by judges.

I didn't know about the alteration either, and I'm not sure I like it, but I'm not sure I dislike it either. It's just different, and my eyes had a little trouble adjusting.

However, what's all this hullabaloo about guys?
Yes, showing the points may hold everyone involved in the contest accountable... at the same time, so many people on this site expect a lot of work done by people other than themselves. It's probably easier for Nana to not worry about getting points up, unless I'm wrong? I guess I shouldn't assume.
Anyway, my point is, so few people volunteer to be judges (or accept nominations)... and even fewer people actually stick with judging for the full term. We've had an enormous amount of drop outs this term particularly.
It's irritating that members expect so much from judges (and Nana and mods and Janis, etc) when they themselves give so little.

Ok, I'm on a sleep-deprived rant now :) Ignore me...

The points didn't go up this week, it's worth talking about, I get it. Nobody needs to get upset though - let's decide what's best TOGETHER.

I'm fine either way.

Back to studying for finals! Wish me luck :)

I'm kicking up most the fuss, and I'm pretty involved and never turn judging down. I've spent a lot of time investing in this site doing various things. I have done the weekly contest and results and it takes a small amount of time. I don't get what is so difficult about it. Everyone makes it seem like it takes HOURS on end.

It's easy to say what's the big deal when you're already in the know.

I know we had a lot of confusion last week in regards to the site glitch but everyone is now aware that we're experiencing some difficulties. As I stated in the mod room I personally don't see the point of having the points removed, if however it's too time consuming for Nana to cross-check the votes that's fine and we understand that (but like Jane I may just be assuming).

"So maybe the idea is to post the votes that are received from judges, but not post votes that are unaccounted for (from the site glitch phantoms)? Because I would be fine with that. "

^In saying all I have though I'd be fine with what Sibs has stated above.

Good luck Jane! I'm working on my finals too, it's a little different in art but a similar work load so I know how busy you must be.

"So maybe the idea is to post the votes that are received from judges, but not post votes that are unaccounted for (from the site glitch phantoms)? Because I would be fine with that. "

I don't know why anyone would think to post the glitch votes, lol that wouldn't help with the real winners at all. It's doing absolutely nothing.more than what was already being done. Just posting a vote after the comment received by the judge. That's all.

Thing is Judging is a hard gig, no doubt about that, when i did my stint not long ago there were like 40 - 60 poems nominated some weeks. I'd go cross eyed reading them all, each poet is different each has their own style, different themes, you have to try and get in a different mind set for each one

So hats off to any judge who hangs in there, Britt i know you are one of those and no one's having a go at you

I think when judges are called for, some treat it like a popularity contest as to how many votes some get. If you take it on, have the gumption to see it through otherwise we end up with a mess like we have now...

Actually, instead of suggesting that everyone should take on more work, which is definitely what it sounded like I was saying before (my bad), I really meant that it's becoming more and more obvious how few members on PnQ really have the time or feel the sense of dedication to make sure everything runs smoothly on the site. If I were Nana, I wouldn't want to post up points if it meant more work. But I'm not Nana.

Britt, you've always been one to take charge and go out of your way to make sure things not only get done, but get done to the best of your ability. I applaud you for that. Unfortunately, most people here don't have that approach in regards to PnQ... and I don't blame them.

So I just think unless we get a bunch more Britts around here, we have to be conscious of the fact that the more we ask people to do, and the more critical we are, the more daunted volunteers will be. A lighter workload and greater appreciation means more people merrily helping out.

In specifics, what if a debate like this were to exasperate Nana enough that she steps down? No one could blame her for not wanting to post up all the points and explain glitches since she isn't getting paid. Alas, if she stepped down, who would fill her shoes? That's a real issue we have to consider. Nana is doing a great job, and I will be the first to impart it takes willpower, dedication, and time every week. It's free labor.

Also, with all the judge drop outs this term, I have become genuinely concerned that soon we won't have any judges to choose from. What then?

I realize I'm going off on crazy tangents. I guess my point is that we have to compromise with those willing to take on thankless, unpaid jobs on PnQ. In a perfect PnQ, we could make all sorts of demands, pile on the workload, and not have any trouble finding someone to acquiesce. Alas, we are imperfect.

Sorry to copy you, Yaki...

XOXO!

Edited: Good luck in your finals, Janey! I do have finals as well. That sucks. ;P

For God's sake guys :P I don't care really, I already get the votes along with the p'ms I don't need to cross check anything. And it doesn't take "less" time without the votes, not at all. In fact posting the points that are copied (by judges) beside the comments is much easier than erasing the votes from each comment lol :P have some logic.

I really don't see how not mentioning votes has any relation with me that way! Or having glitches, I am not the one explaining glitches, in fact I am still a member and you Mods/Janis are the ones responsible for this explanation etc...since you are more knowlegeble! or not...

However, nothing said or decided will push me to step down, I am not that silly lol when I was asked to do this, I knew what I was getting myself into! so no worries :P

With all that said, I still don't mind posting the votes, it changes nothing for me, but I still think it saves lots of confusion, esp that points have a certain role, but you guys keep talking about transperency, and the distrust is really obvious through some posts. But I don't want to add more crap to this...

@ Britt, I was a judge too, both at times when I was at home "free" and when I had work and uni, it differs a lot for those who have a very busy life, and those who have less pressured one. It's not mission impossible, but it does take time and dedication, especially if the judge wants to be full of justice, and reread before voting. Then writing a decent comment...

In all cases, I have an opinion just like everyone else, it doesn't come from personal desires like, saving time and efforts for myself, it comes froma point of view, nothing more!

:P

I feel the need to say something, so here goes-

My opinion: There needs to be more support and understanding... For me, I enjoy seeing the poems selected and the comments... and I thank you Nana for posting them each week... I'm understanding that there is site glitches at this time... so whatever needs to be done, Im in full support.... Each week, the behind the scenes members have a "volunteer" job that they do.... and I thank them for that.... I agree with Jane- I don't blame folks for wanting to back out, excuse me for being so blunt, but some members are never satisfied- that being said: There are members that DO hang in there and do their best, and we need to just hang in there and be supportive... I read allot, and to me the Mods, Nana, and a few others are trying and doing all that they can- Britt: You are awesome, I have seen you give 110% throughout the years...very dedicated. Im not saying we shouldn't discuss site glitches and issues Im just saying that we all should be more supportive and understanding...
thank you-

Reading these posts, it sounds like most of us are actually on the same page, we're just having trouble communicating some complicated site issues and definitions. A quick poll:

Is everyone still fine with posting judges' points?

Show us the points Baby! Yes.

Yes :)