Let's debate!

^^
on one point I disagree, those that go to church temples etc etc are the ones that discriminate the most "hence WAR"

Only Atheists can save the world..and who the hard core religious folk fear the most...

Yeah Kate was very cute in those movies

^ No, I wasn't implying that. I meant people should obey their religion, there is nothing wrong with that. But forcing it on others is wrong. In many parts of the world people are still forced to convert.

Sorry if the syntax is misleading.

And the other implication was, that it is only within the 4 walls of the church, temple, etc that people do not discriminate. Simply because they fear god. In every facet of society, on every level is discrimination apparent.

Nicko... for 5 yrs, I've been looking @ stars, trying to oppose what my parents bestowed upon me from religious views, etc...

I used to pray because I've been told God will make you rot in hell if you don't.

Then I looked closer... I had many doubts.. I doubted everything.. and said: ROT IN HELL?

I stopped praying... one day, I wanted to become an Atheist, the other an Agnostic.. I was just sick of this world and everything.......

but.. without drama, or anything...

I said: WHO THE HELL MADE THIS UNIVERSE?

Big Bang? HELL NO!

I mean... I bet there is someone out there who made us.... GOD!

I dont care if others use their religions as shield for personal advantage, but I do know that religion is a cure for the heart. It is up to how we use it.

And you're so wrong about 'Atheists making the world a better place' . Any HUMAN, (Mark the capitalization), can make the world a better place.

Big BAng ? the great explosion..ever heard of Gary Miller ??

(the point from posting this isn't Christianity and Islam but what was mentioned regarding God, and the big bang)

Dr. Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar)

A very important Christian missionary converted to Islam and became a major herald for Islam, he was a very active missionary and was very knowledgeable about the Bible. This man likes mathematics so much, that's why he likes logic. One day, he decided to read the Qur'an to try to find any mistakes that he might take advantage of while inviting Muslims to convert to Christianity. He expected the Qur'an to be an old book written 14 centuries ago, a book that talks about the desert and so on. He was amazed from what he found.

He discovered that this Book had what no other book in the world has. He expected to find some stories about the hard time that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) had, like the death of his wife Khadijah (may God be pleased with her) or the death of his sons and daughters. However, he did not find anything like that. And what made him even more confused is that he found a full "Sura" (chapter) in the Qur'an named "Mary" that contains a lot of respect to Mary (peace be upon her) which is not the case even in the books written by Christians nor in their Bibles. He did not find a Sura named after "Fatimah"(the prophet's daughter) nor "Aishah" (the Prophet's wife), may (God) be pleased with both of them. He also found that the name of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned in the Qur'an 25 times while the name of "Muhammad" (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned only 4 times, so he became more confused. He started reading the Qur'an more thoroughly hoping to find a mistake but he was shocked when he read a great verse which is verse number 82 in Surat Al-Nisa'a (Women) that says:

"Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than God, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy".

Dr Miller says about this verse: "One of the well known scientific principles is the principle of finding mistakes or looking for mistakes in a theory until it's proved to be right (Falsification Test). What's amazing is that the Holy Qur'an asks Muslims and non-muslims to try to find mistakes in this book and it tells them that they will never find any". He also says about this verse: "No writer in the world has the courage to write a book and say that it's empty of mistakes, but the Qur'an, on the contrary, tells you that it has no mistakes and asks you to try to find one and you won't find any."

Dr. Gary Miller.

Another verse that Dr Miller reflected on for a long time is the verse number 30 in Surat "Al-Anbiya" (The Prophets):

" Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"

He says: "This verse is exactly the subject of the scientific research that won the Noble Prize in 1973 and was about the theory of the "Great Explosion". According to this theory, the universe was the result of a great explosion that lead to the formation of the universe with its skies and planets.

Dr Miller says: "Now we come to what's amazing about the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and what's pretended about the devils helping him, God says:

"No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation), it would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it). Indeed they have been removed far from even (a chance of) hearing it." The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 26, Verses 210-212.

"When thou does read the Qur'an, seek God's protection from Satan the Rejected One" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 16, Verse 98.

You see? Can this be the devil's way to write a book? how can he write a book then tells you to ask God for protection from this devil before reading that book? Those are miraculous verses in this miraculous book! and has a logical answer to those who pretend that it's from the devil".

And among the stories that amazed Dr Miller is the story of the Prophet(PBUH) with Abu-Lahab. Dr Miller says: "This man (Abu Lahab) used to hate Islam so much that he would go after the Prophet wherever he goes to humiliate him. If he saw the prophet talking to strangers, he used to wait till he finishes and then ask them: What did Muhammad tell you? If he said it's white then it's in reality black and if he said it's night then it's day. He meant to falsify all what the prophet says and to make people suspicious about it. And 10 years before the death of Abu Lahab, a Sura was inspired to the prophet, named "Al-Masad". This sura tells that Abu Lahab will go to hell, in other words, it says that Abu Lahab will not convert to Islam. During 10 years, Abu Lahab could have said: "Muhammad is saying that I will not become a Muslim and that I will go to the hell fire, but I'm telling you now that I want to convert to Islam and become a Muslim. What do you think about Muhammad now? Is he saying the truth or no? Does his inspiration come from God?". But Abu Lahab did not do that at all although he was disobeying the prophet in all matters, but not in this one. In other words, it was as if the prophet(PBUH) was giving Abu Lahab a chance to prove him wrong! But he did not do that during 10 whole years! he did not convert to Islam and did not even pretend to be a Muslim!! Throughout 10 years, he had the chance to destroy Islam in one minute! But this did not happen because those are not the words of Muhammad (PBUH) but the words of God Who knows what's hidden and knows that Abu Lahab will not become a Muslim.

How can the prophet (PBUH) know that Abu Lahab will prove what is said in that Sura if this was not inspiration from God? How can he be sure throughout 10 whole years that what he has (the Qur'an) is true if he did not know that it's inspiration from God?? For a person to take such a risky challenge, this has only one meaning: that this is inspiration from God.

"Perish the hands of the Father of Flame (Abu Lahab)! perish he! No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains! Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of blazing Flame! His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood; As fuel! A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre round her (own) neck!" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 111.

Dr Miller says about a verse that amazed him: One of the miracles in the Qur'an is challenging the future with things that humans cannot predict and to which the "Falsification Test" applies, this test consists of looking for mistakes until the thing that is being tested is proved to be right. For example, let's see what the Qur'an said about the relation between Muslims and Jews. Qur'an says that Jews are the major enemies for Muslims and this is true until now as the main enemy for Muslims are the Jews.

Dr Miller continues: This is considered a great challenge since the Jews have the chance to ruin Islam simply by treating Muslims in a friendly way for few years and then say: here we are treating you as friends and the Qur'an says that we are your enemies, the Qur'an must be wrong then! But this did not happen during 1400 years!! and it will never happen because those are the words of The One who knows the unseen (God) and not the words of humans.

Dr Miller continues: Can you see how the verse that talks about the enmity between Muslims and Jews constitutes a challenge to the human mind?

"Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! We believe; write us down among the witnesses" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 5, Verses 82-84.

This verse applies to Dr Miller as he was a Christian but when he knew the truth, he believed and converted to Islam and became a herald. May God support him.

Dr Miller says about the unique style of the Qur'an that he finds wonderful: No doubt there is something unique and amazing in Qur'an that is not present anywhere else, as the Qur'an gives you a specific information and tells you that you did not know this before. For example:

"This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Prophet!) by inspiration: thou was not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam: nor was thou with them when they disputed (the point)" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 3, Verse 44.

"Such are some of the stories of the Unseen, which We have revealed unto thee: before this, neither thou nor thy People knew them. So persevere patiently: for the End is for those who are righteous" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 11, Verse 49.

"Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee: nor was thou (present) with them when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 12, Verse 102.

Dr Miller continues: "No other holy book uses this style, all the other books consist of information that tells you where this information came from. For example, when the Holy Bible talks about the stories of the ancient nations, it tells you that a this King lived in a this place and a that leader fought in that battle, and that a certain person had a number of kids and their names are. But this book (Bible) always tells you that if you want to know more, you can read a certain book since that information came from that book".

Dr Garry Miller continues: "This is in contrary to the Qur'an which gives you the information and tells you that it's new!! And what's amazing is that the people of Mecca at that time (time of inspiration of those verses) used to hear those verses and the challenge that the information in those verses was new and was not known by Muhammad (PBUH) nor by his people at that time, and despite that, they never said: We know this and it is not new, and they did not say: We know where Muhammad came from with those verses. This never happened, but what happened is that nobody dared to say that he was lying to them because those was really new information, not coming from the human mind but from God who knows the unseen in the past, the present and the future".

http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=215

Since we ran out of space on the other thread (Colorado), Abed and Max you both are also right on the meaning of the word TERRORIST.

i.e someone who thrives by producing terror in the minds of others. It can be a literal or metaphorical representation, and can be used in a number of situations in broader usage.

Here is addl. support:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition, 2009
1. systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal
2. the act of terrorizing
3. the state of being terrorized

Ever evolving definition is what it is.

David, how long did it take you to find a definition of "terrorist" that didn't involve politics? ;)

The term "terrorist" carries political significance in the United States, especially since 2011. It is socially identifiable as "terror" relating to "politics," (whether it is listed as such in every internet dictionary available or not). Americans are more sensitive to the term here (obvious reasons) and care more about how the term is used. Blame the media. "Terrorist" carries a strong, undeniable connotation with it.

If we want to get into semantics, I guess terrorist, serial killer, and mass murderer can all mean the same thing. A terrorist is someone who reaps terror through violence; a serial killer is someone who kills a series of people; a mass murderer is someone who kills many people.
They all kill. They all cause terror.

This debate was more valuable when we were thinking about significance, not word parts.

Thanks Nana for that beautiful post.

Indeed, thank you Nana, that was very informative:)

Enough with the semantics. Here is the interpretation most commonly given:
terrorist (plural terrorists)
A person, group, or organization that uses violent action, or the threat of violent action, to further political goals; frequently in an attempt to coerce either a more powerful opponent, (such as a citizen or group targeting a government), or conversely, a weaker opponent, (such as a government, or even an internal citizen or group, being targeted by a larger government).
An agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France.
...
Norwegian Bokmål
Noun
terrorist m (definite singular terroristen; indefinite plural terrorister; definite plural terroristene)
terrorist (person who uses terror as a weapon in a political struggle)
retrieved from Wiktionary, 23 July 2012 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrorist

Does it mean no one else is a terrorist? No, you can argue any point.

The emotions that have been involved are far out of proportion to the semantic content. Whether or not you count Holmes strictly as a terrorist is irrelevant to the horror he caused.
Here in Texas we just had a pick-up truck wreck that killed 13 people: that's more than Holmes killed, yet we take it in stride because it was (presumably) unintentional.

It is the purpose behind the acts we do that demonize us, whether for political ends or otherwise.

Yes, agree absolutely with the above.

^ Ha Ha! It needed 2 mods to muscle a poor ordinary PnQer? That too on the usage of a word, so commonly used. But, Jane did you see what Larry just did? He played it right down the middle. The first part of his comment simply reiterates what is the well known and "common" definition of a Terrorist is. No, I never disputed it (see above) in the first place! The second part , like your 3rd para, supports what I pointed out. So we never differed. And I am well aware of the usage in the US since 9/2011, the words etymology from French, and its history. But do realize that there are a 100 other definitions out there. Here is a nice link:
http://www.azdema.gov/museum/famousbattles/pdf/Terrorism%20Definitions%20072809.pdf

I simply made a point that both Abed and Max were also right in their usage of the word terrorist, in a certain way.....as they used the ideological definition (as in Collins and Wiki and other places) which is also well accepted.

Do realize Abed and Max are not in or from the US, so their "ideological" usage of the word "terrorist" to condemn a heinous act committed in the US, is much appreciated, at least by me. I would welcome their sentiments, put in any words. After all, it is their sympathy ( as non-US folks) that matter to all of us.

To me these^ are more heartfelt than the pseudo-sentiments of the NRA (the entire US gun lobby), which in my opinion, has essentially paralyzed the system by using the antiquated and often misinterpreted Second amendment of the US constitution to combat any attempts by the lawmakers to prevent the public ownership of weapons of "mass destruction" (=assault rifles and modern automatic weapons).
By comparison, what you or some others own, are not weapons that will be ever used for mass killings, so when you folks criticize my thoughts as "LS the ideal is meaningless if it's unrealistic" or "What we need is stricter buying laws. I fully support a mental evaluation"......

I have to just :) and not ;)

and hope one day, the frustrated public/lawmakers will realize what I see in this paradox.

Please keep this on track...

^^^^^

My first sentence when I opened this thread. Don't know why LS didn't just open another thread to continue the topic of the Colorado tragedy instead of highjacking this one? The recent posts have now got nothing to do with prayer rooms in airports so...if a mod feels free to do so....just close this one down....I have no objections.

^^ Is there an issue? Your topic has essentially already concluded. The title says "Let's debate".
Open threads are often used to discuss other issues all the time, once the main topic is concluded, or even in between. As long as the conversation is civil, which this one is. I am not being aware that it is against the rules?
At least I am making a point. People simply throw in irrational stuff and abusive language in any thread.
Besides, no one wants to open another thread on the Colorado issue, it is too sensitive. So I thought I will just put in a few comments that overflowed here. As no rules have been violated, unlike many other threads, I will ask that this thread remain open.

^^^

Fair enough. No I don't have an issue I was just making a point also. As the OP of this thread...I was debating one thing...you and the others are now discussing something quite different...something I really don't want to be involved in....that's my point. So...as it is a debating thread....please carry on.

LS - always the pacifier :)
I, like Hellon, will give you a "fair enough" and be on my way!

I am not interested in semantic gyrations, carry on as you will.

Sir LARRY. I love your new avatar. Mhm.

Egh I'm the only one unable to see new avatars even when I refresh. Stupid conxn.

"Semantic gyrations" AHAHAHAHA!

I can't process the word "gyration" without imagining gyrating hips. In this case, it's your hips, Larry. Hilarious image.

Ok, who wants the last post in this thread?
I'm going to start up a new debate thread with a quote that's been irritating me today.

Sure, I will take the last one, and announce a closure.

The debate on terrorist and terrorism is over, from my point of view. Made my point, and heard yours. :) No Winners, that I can see.

"All's well that ends well" William Shakespeare.

Sorry, Hellon for detracting from your main topic.
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