Let's debate! #2

But here we are talking about truth as a concept. Maybe Heidegger could explain it better when he annouced it as unhiddeness, relating to the allegory of the cave.I think his analysis of the concept of truth as well as the rejection could help to develop what I do think about it.
1-that the "locus" of truth is assertion (judgment);
2- that the essence of truth lies in the "agreement" of the judgment with its object; 3- that Aristotle, the father of logic, not only assigned truth to the judgment as its primordial locus, but has set going the definition of "truth" as "agreement."
Therefore that leads us to language as a metaphor disguising ideology if we think of truth as an agreement.

The truth is highly individual and merely perspective.

The parameters to ethics are set by the society as a whole and implemented as a fashion. Simply just bending a statement with convincible reasoning is enough to please the masses.

Majority does not necessarily imply being right. Nor minority, wrong. But favoring the majority is the typical social convention. The order and the balance is maintained regardless of human consent. The history contains the good and the bad. And similarly the truth along with lies. One can only stomach to the limitations of their morality and to the depth of their consciences. Equilibrium when lost, probably will result in eradication. Or pristine chaos.

In some ways, truth is what one accepts. Of the situation/incident/circumstances/conversations.

Argument is an effort to justify ones opinion. And one is his/her own judge. Thus truth is individual.

Killing for fun or to the sounds of trumpet is equally intentional. But the guilty verdict is only for those whose kill without orders. Rather amusing, that the masses will not revolt to the tragedy before their eyes. The screams, the lies and the hatred, comes invariably from those who are not fighting.

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." - Rene Descartes

Dearest karla I hope you know the sophist name is related to deceit even in dictionaries.
Dear Vi
I do not know how to answer you because as I said it in the beginning, we are using the truth in two different concept:
first truth as a reality which exists out of our minds.
second, as the essence, as a concept living by itself independent from tangible world,
the all mighty truth, the light.
One must pay attention that these two are often mistaken and have only a little in common.
I agree with you in independency of the truth from the majority and minority believes though:
(most of time, truth is in minority.)
The relativity of the truth that you believe however is just one side of the story, the other side is its definiteness.
one would not understand this before being at ease in the presence of paradox.

To clarify farther I have to add that an opinion always is assumed as truth by its holder, but it connection with the truth is always relative and dependent and measured by time.
that assumption of truth often ( in here) is replaced by the meaning of the truth.
in that way yes, it is fair to say:

""The aim of argument should be to change the nature of truth.""
- Frank Herbert

because here truth is our assumptions, assumed as the truth.

I know but as I said I prefer the pre-socratics. However, we should also see the importance of the sophists no matter how hard it might be for us.As you should know they taught people/men to exercise their minds/thoughts
You blame The Sophists for some things. I blame Descartes for our cartesian world devoid of feelings. When logic reigns, other things are confined.
I'd like to leave here a good quote on truth:
"I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human being, first and foremost, and as such I'm for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole."
Malcolm X

Hello dddavidd good to see you back

I sometimes wonder if the ancient philosophers used "truth" for "correctness" in propagating these arguments/philosophies quoted above. Similar sounding words but very different connotations, in the modern sense.

All of your well researched quotes seem to be from the logic of very abstract and eminent "medieval thinkers"....I will not deny their wisdom, or your well read wonderful interpretations.

"Truth", to me in the modern usage is an undeniable, incontrovertible "fact"... in science we use this word instead of "truth".

"Correctness" is in some way related, but not the "truth". It may be closer in its meaning to exactitude, accurateness, preciseness, appropriateness and similar words, but is not the same thing as the "truth".

Will try to add more...a little later. Enjoying your literary interpretations meanwhile.
EDITED: Your= all of you participating

I don't want to talk about truth anymore.I don't believe in it. Besides I don't want to think about it anymore.The game is over.

Karla, just as I was beginning to learn what "truth" really is, you decide to quit on us...I am sorry to see someone well read leave a debate which is still getting warm. Come on back and educate us, please. No one can be right or wrong in a debate over mere words.

Oh! Educate you? hehehe I love how you manipulate words...What I had to say, I have already said but I can email you and write all my beliefs and maybe you will be educated David.

'Hello dddavidd good to see you back'

HAHAHA. Nicko, mate, it's Bub Shank. Sorry about the pun.

Hopefully, I have not offended anyone in this exchange of ideas on this interesting quote by Larry, unfamiliar to me......if so my apologies, that is not my intent. All 3 of you, have great individual wisdom from reading abstract ancient literature as reflected in your interpretations. So if this is not going too well, best I withdraw from this debate as well.

Oh!!!Philosophy is not abstract David.It permeates life and here in Brazil, it is taught since secondary school. You also have to study it too at university specially if you graduate as a teacher.Ah! Secondary school students also have to study Sociology, Art, Mathematics, English, Spanish,Geography, History,Biology,Portuguese and etc.It is part of the curriculum.You didn't offend us at all. You were just being sarcastic but that is nothing compared to what I have seen in life.

Well...all the posts to date re this topic (some brought from the other thread) have been abstract. You can't really be taught philosophy in my opinion for the readings are basically just anothers ópinion and we dilute them along the way until they become our believes but...they re still just opinions...we all have our own beliefs and truths but....they are adapted/influenced by others...is that philisophical enough to join this debate or....I can still see the footprints from those who decided to exit already so...should I just follow the yellow brick road???

Me just wanted to sleep
I know my thoughts are not conventional. some what unusual. because they are my own but believe me they have nothing to do with medieval .
I also hope that i did not offend anyone by thinking or by being unusual.

^^^^

That's where the truth usually finds you :)

I have already slept hehehehe and you know I am weird.Can't change that although I have tried hard.

About teaching Philosophy...well it has been like that since the ancient times.
Hellon - follow the yellow brick road please hehehe

Well...I'm not ancient *cough* but...I will still stand by my previous statement...you can't teach philosophy...it's just someone elses opinion documented.

* I thought you already went down that path but..you came back...couldn't have been very good down there then?

Holen, Mine mostly comes when I shower

karla, that's what you needed, to sleep over my wonderful thoughts

Well Hellon, it is taught in my country since secondary school. I suppose it is much more than mere opinions. If Philosophy were just an opinion, it wouldn't have influenced us so much in so many aspects of life.

I can't sleep with you around. I have to do what I always do: speak my mind without fear of rejection.

Holen, Mine mostly comes when I shower

^^^^^

I just sing in the shower... but now...you have inspired me..."there's a hole 'n my bucket dear Charie..dear Charlie!!!! Ah Karla...now that's where we differ...we say a subject is offered in schools...doesn't mean we have to take up the offer...some subjects can be taught some just can't.

Well Hellon we differ in so many things. It wouldnt be the first time it happens and I am glad we differ.How boring the world would be if we both think alike!

All about us.

I was not contributing to the debate about the two concepts, but only stating an opinion about truth.

I am very well aware of the ongoing bifurcation of truth into two different concepts.

The reality that exists out of our minds. Here, it depends upon how an individual processes the common reality shared together with the rest of humanity. Which makes the truth relative. And the truth is mostly the minority, because only a fraction of individuals have slowed down to reflect on their life and the world changing around them. Questioning the purposes of existence. And deriving a meaningful justification to the morality, thus the implementation of morals and basic guidelines to life.

And the second concept about the almighty truth independent from the tangible world. The precise truth is rarely apparent to anyone. Regardless of an approval, it is self sustaining. Self prevailing.

Yes, I agree the truth is our assumptions. But no method can convey the precise truth since everybody's truth, are still assumptions. Thus the paradox. The ultimate truth has no nature to divert.

At the end its a glass half empty and half full argument.

That is where some of the medieval thinkers have rejected truth all together and concluded. That truth is merely an agreement, a truce with the winning votes from the majority. It is a dogma of social laws and mentality. The minority are often looked upon as absurd.

Humanity favors a productive truth. Wherein the truth does not shatter the window panes to their reality. Thriving in society is a hard thing. The turmoil of surviving takes a toll. And people in order to make a decent living lie and deceive to get over the rough edges. One wonders, should he/she sympathize or pity the ones being crushed under the weight of the worldly expectations.

Everyone has put forward such good interpretations of truth. This debate at least is productive, for me. Ones interpretation of truth he or she conveys here, giving us an opportunity to reflect upon our thoughts, to tweak them.

Oh and philosophy. True Hellon. It cannot be taught at school or outside of school. In fact one is his own teacher. This is in your favor.

Now in Karla's defense. Even though philosophy cannot be taught at school, I find it appropriate to be taught, since children at such an age aren't aware of the what life is in general. Innocence is their virtue. Even though it cannot be taught, it can help kick start the process. Wherein as the children develop their views of the world, they take their time to reflect upon day to day changes. Use an ethical approach towards tackling an endeavor. Being able to distinguish between two entities, since a thin difference separates the best and the worse.

I am sure someone can provide a better answer.

Intriguing how humans can absorb contradicting arguments, yet follow a common train of thought.

I thought I'd google truth to see exactly what this word means...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

I wasn't surprised to see the word abstract in there nor was I surprised to see how many forms of truth there really are...of course, these could be also considered just other people's opinions of the word and some of you may not find any truth in any of them. My favourite interpretation of this word...

Truth in logic

Main articles: Logical truth, Criteria of truth, and Truth value

Logic is concerned with the patterns in reason that can help tell us if a proposition is true or not. However, logic does not deal with truth in the absolute sense, as for instance a metaphysician does. Logicians use formal languages to express the truths which they are concerned with, and as such there is only truth under some interpretation or truth within some logical system.

A logical truth (also called an analytic truth or a necessary truth) is a statement which is true in all possible worlds[42] or under all possible interpretations, as contrasted to a fact (also called a synthetic claim or a contingency) which is only true in this world as it has historically unfolded. A proposition such as "If p and q, then p." is considered to be logical truth because it is true because of the meaning of the symbols and words in it and not because of any facts of any particular world. They are such that they could not be untrue.
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4 Vs

True Hellon. It cannot be taught at school or outside of school. In fact one is his own teacher.
^^^^

Very much so...we are our own teacher. Now I wonder...we both agree that philosophy can't be taught..perhaps learned over a lif time but...I've often wondered about university students who study philosophy and graduate in it...what do they do with their degree? I've never seen an advert for a philosopher in the situations vacant column?