LP, shall we debate here?

Care to keep the debate going

Yeah of course... I said:

I do not know about Afghanistan or Pakistan, to be honest... those aren't Arabian countries. I think Bin Ladin is just a big fat American lie...... even if he was true, then you should know that what he did does not reflect in any way how Moslims think..... anyway... You never know what happens underneath the governments' tables.............

Also.... I think that those groups you helped did that not because you helped them and they weren't grateful, but because their land is invaded, and they want freedom.... and they aren't getting it!

Lebanon is not an Islamic country like KSA. IE; it has civil laws and not Islamic laws. 60% of Lebanese ppopulation is Moslims, while the rest 40% is Christians.

I am unsure if you would be able to know who has the right in this everlasting war, for with such Media, everything is lost....

And... thanks for your suggestion. I might do that.

Bin Ladin is not a lie, hes was a real person, dead now, at least thats what we have been told. WE didnt invade Afganistan untill after 9/11. They where a country that was constantly invaded by others for a very long time, we helped them a very long time ago from being invaded by the russians. What we did is NOT the people of Afganistans fault, I dont blame them for not wanting us there. The war on the "infidel" was started by a religious psychopath, Bin Ladin. He attacked us, we had no choice to attack back. NO ONE thought it was going to last this long.

I didnt know that Labanon was a civil law country, nor did I know that it was, too some degree, religiously free, I learned something today about your people, at least has far has facts and satistics go, and I thank you for that little lesson.

Yeah; Bin Ladin was the excuse made to invade Afghanistan then

not 100% civil... there are still some old laws related to both religions... like the fact that there is YET, no civil marriage laws... nor bestowing the Lebanese citizenship from a Lebanese mother who marries a non-Lebanese to her children........ and more holes in the wall..... hopefully they will be solved by the civil organizations soon.....

Concerning religiously-free, yes it is..... I myself go to churches, have Christian friends and celebrate Christmas and Easter (not religiously of course)

May I join this??
I guess u wouldn't mind
first of all I agree with Abed that what Bin Ladin did doesn't reflect what Muslims do
and by the way Bin Ladin was a terrorist not a leader so don't say that U.S.A attacked Afghanistan as a reply to his attacks.it would be non sense (no offense )
Edit:it is what media said and will keep saying but I as many people who read about wars between Russia and the U.S will know that the U.S had other political reasons to invade Afghanistan other than Bin Ladin.

and for u to know not all the Countries that have many Muslims goes with Islamic law
only a few of them does I would mention
Egypt,Lebanon,Turkey,Syria cause those are the ones I am sure they go with civil laws not religious ones

Yeah Max is right above.. Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, etc..

Do not know about Afghanistan or Pakistan, to be honest... those aren't Arabian countries. I think Bin Ladin is just a big fat American lie...... even if he was true, then you should know that what he did does not reflect in any way how Moslims think..... anyway... You never know what happens underneath the governments' tables.............

^^^

That's a huge comment from someone who was probably 8 years old when the twin tower went down?
why are the American members not jumping all over this comment???

and...in english we generally say muslims...not moslims. For someone who claims to be of this faith I though you'd have the spelling correct by now:)?

Usually when Abed is around discussing with foreign people, I try to stay silent as long as I can because he knows a damn huge lot about history and I will be just useless. Even though I disagree with him in many things. Whether in life or history. For example, he named, once in a previous thread, Hafez Al-Assad and his son Mr Bashar as two of the most dangerous terrorists in the world. I didn't care to reply for I know it's in vain.

Anyway, I couldn't bite my tongue this time 'round as I read that muslims are such innocent creators, sent from above to save the world. We are not. How many countries have been invaded, destroyed and taken back to thousands years ago because of us, muslims? Perhaps, our prophet Mohammad is the only one human-being who deserves to be called a muslim, with few others who are still unknown for the time being. So let's re-read history and shut our mouths.
We are still putting women, in specific 'kingdoms', and emphasise the 'kingdoms', in black bags so that they won't attract men or mistake? Come on.

However, that being said, Bin Ladin is an American jerk that was made as an excuse for America to look completely innocent in front of the UN, to invade as many countries as possible.

We are in a poetry website and I am sure nobody is going to watch attentively what we're saying. So let's be less opinionated and more open-minded.

Hellon, ...... ugh. Spelling?

Helleon dear, I'd have to ask, what does his age back then reflect on the way he sees things now? If he has read through and have nerumrous resources then his judgment might be better than an adult who chooses to believe everything anyone says
And his claims have definite links to them! The CIA and binladan have shared the same dance techniques on several occasions, so his claims have some authncity to them, althought I personly disagree. But I wouldn't jump on him for saying that and neither is it disrespectful to anyone that he thinks that way.
Nouraaaa, read some history books dear, an honest advice because I really didn't like what you had to say, understand the present from the context of history

Blaaaaaaa, Rab. History books are all big, fat liars. And if you didn't like what I had to say then YOU go read them. :p

Noura stated:

"We are in a poetry website and I am sure nobody is going to watch attentively what we're saying. So let's be less opinionated and more open-minded."

I'm sure there are more people reading this than you realize, but I tend to stay silent, however I must say a few things.

I don't know the complete truth behind 9-11, all I know is what the act did to the american people, and I know how it shook up Myself and my daughters the day it happened. I also know how it affected the familys that lost loved ones. I now know many familys affected by 9-11. Living as close as I do to one of the sites upon where the tragedy took place you can't help but be affected by this tragedy. I don't begin to say that I understand what its like in other countries, and Im sure its far more devastating than what took place here. War is War and Im against it.

"Bin Ladin is an American jerk that was made as an excuse for America to look completely innocent in front of the UN, to invade as many countries as possible."

^^^^ That is a pretty far fetched idea... I don't think so... however, Within our government I don't think allot of things being told to us are accurate and true information.

I'm not wishing to debate, there are many scattered theories... and I DO NOT SUPPORT- War or the devastation it cause to ALL people involved.

I just thought I would step in and let you hear an Americans thoughts upon this subject... My heart aches for all people who are forever altered by war and acts of violence...

One more thing for you baby sis
Religons! All alike are set of codes that if followed carefully
The world becomes a better place! Unfortunately there are people who happen to speak on our behaves due to their power positions have other plans
Greed to sum it up easily
War is an economical choice and don't believe anyone who says otherwise. These people in power don't care about us as long as profit keeps coming. So Religons image becomes ruined by these people
Islam, like all other Religons call for peace. And love and unity amongst all, the only thing that makes you a better Muslim is your own faith, Islam is a deravatice of al Salam and you know exactly what that means don't get it confused

And in regard of kingdoms statement u said
1st of all, you are lacking actual proof becquse if you know better you would understand that its not written in any consistunal law that women should wear a certain dress code
It's completely cultural
I live here and I rarely see these black boxes you seem to point out, I know of a couple of members here who wear these blak boxes and might explain it better if u want
So again dear ;) do read more into it before u point fingers at whomever

A quick question to Maple Tree: are you against the war in Syria now? Even if you know that America is the reason? Nope, I don't think so. Because in all honesty, we are different. I once wrote a poem bout what happened in 11th September and I was saddened by it. You guys feel ok if we suffer. End of the story.

Edited: Rab, is oppressing women and forcing them to do certain things that I would die doing... culture? Wow, what an answer.

In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive, show their faces or even put some nail polish? And their punishment if they do so... jail or those sick stuff that's called 'aqam al had'? Really, what a culture.

I feel ok if you suffer? NO I DONT!

Yes Im against ALL WAR... wherever it is..

and Noura, Im not the one pushing the button to create the war... It makes me sick to be honest.... period the end.

You could be against America because it causes wars all around the world? I am surprised.

The two towers destroyed in America are NOTHING compared to what it did to us all over the years. It burnt people in front of their parents and destructed houses while there are human-beings in them. Does that make you also sick? I am glad to hear that.

I don't understand why you are cornering maple, you need to understand that the masses and the government are not the same thing, yes the things that have happend to us throughout the years are terrible, it's our job as educated human beings to spread awareness, not accusations
It's human nature to feel grief wherever you see someone suffering and its also human nature to be bais to your own kind, it's the people who can detach their human nature that are capable of doing whatever things for personal gain

And Maple! When u speak about 9/11 it's clear that u speak out of emotin because it's your own kind that was victimized
But I'd want for you to understand that on humanitarian scale That other things that have happend dwarf 9/11 in terms of casualties. And an example of that would be the illegal invasion an occupation of Iraq
If you compare these two incidents you would understand exactly what noura is saying
3000deaths in 9/11 and over 1 million in iraq

Does it indicate something? It does
It's evident that our blood seemes irrelevant
Palestine Syria or Iraq it will always be the same predicament

What's happening in Syria and what happened in Iraq are different from Palestine's tragedies. America always tries to play the role of a constructive country that wants the whole world to live in peace while it's completely the opposite. I know I am talking in an American website and for sure I will be bitten. But I am used to think aloud and say my heart. Sorry.

Maybe I am just victimised and talking out of anger. My uncle, papa had passed away in this Saudi-American war that happened in Syria, and two of my friends were kidnapped, rapped and tortured. And I live in horror 24/7 so guess I have the right to be like that, ha?

Edited: I apologise Andrea if I sounded accusative and furious like Rabea said. Guess politics always do that to me. Haha! :)

Edited: Rab, is oppressing women and forcing them to do certain things that I would die doing... culture? Wow, what an answer.

In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive, show their faces or even put some nail polish? And their punishment if they do so... jail or those sick stuff that's called 'aqam al had'? Really, what a culture.
--------------

It's completely unappropaite of you to even say that
You want to know why? Because you could b affecting someone judgment, you might not realize it but alot of people do read These forums and people that happen to be your most friends will most probably believe you
The only problem with that is that right now
You are spreading fallacy! And your accusations baby sis!
Sincerely lacks truth! You have a clouded judgment

I want you to point out the consistunal laws that bans woman from using nail polish! I want you to list down the cases of oppression you talk about and the rule against showing your face or go to prison
You won't find them so save your self the trouble
Such things do not exist I would love for you to stop using certain singular incidents and relate them to the 20 million people that live here , because you seem to have a problem with generalizing

I am going to answer you for the last time. Not because I want 'you' to believe me, but I want whoever foreign reading these forums to know the truth.

I am going to search where a debate on here was open about a woman went to jail because she drove in our lovely kingdom. Wait.

And huh? Show her face? Any Arab tell Rabea how the King Abdullah rules there please?

The sacrifices you went through will all sum you as a person in the future
Your skin will only be harder and I'd want you to be the strongest you can be because what lies ahead for us seem to be darker than wha we want trough

Noura my love, I share your Same perspective
And down the line my plight is your plight
And what is mine is yours
Until we realize that we are one we will continue to scumb and crumble

Let me rephrase ur words so we dont have people who want start drama
our objective Is to speak against
economic imperialism. You see, third world countries are rich places, abundant in resources, and many of these countries have the capacity to feed their starving people and the children we always see digging for food in trash on commercials. But plutocracies, in other words a government run by the rich such as the american one and traditionally oppressive European states, force the third world into buying overpriced, unnecessary goods while exporting huge portions of their natural resources.
It's the business giants and the government officials who make all the real money. We have whatever they kick down to us. My enemy is not the average white man, it's not the kid down the block or the kids I see on the street; my enemy is the white man I don't see: the people in the white house, the corporate monopoly owners, fake liberal politicians those are my enemies.

You know the idea of a confederation of provinces where one federal government controls the states? The Europeans who came to america stole that idea from the Iroquois LEAGUE. The idea of impeaching a ruler comes from an Aztec tradition. That's why Montezuma was stoned to death by his own people 'cause he represented the agenda of white Spaniards once he was captured, not the Aztec people who would become Mexicans.

Noura dear
You cannot change the past but you can make the future, and anyone who tells you different is a •••••g lethargic devil
Hand by hand our voices will be heard some day some how
I promise you that sis.

" why are the American members not jumping all over this comment???"

Because this site has had this debate a million times, and its pointless. Were not changing any minds here. Plus clearly no one wants to hear from Americans. Were all evil. Look at what happened to Maple, who I know very well and know that any life lost, no matter race, religion or creed does make her sick. You can't be genuine on here, your ass gets jumped. And if we say something even slightly as offensive as what is said beforehand, we get in trouble.

So, its just not worth it.

PS Rabea I don't think we can use the F word. and a black man is in the W.H. I'm soorrry I couldnt help myself lol

And America isn't a white nation. You say the enemy isn't the average white man. Were a melting pot of all kinds of races and religions..

^^ absolutely agree. I just read, and keep my mouth shut.

Britt, I apologised to Maple, and I confess I sounded rude, I shouldn't speak about what someone thinks or feels instead of them. I'm sorry again.
And we don't think you're evil. Your government is, but not you public, you're rather misled. Didn't you read what I wrote bout those sneaky, dirty muslims? I always criticise our countries but dunno why you think I'm a sickly opinionated person... Off to lunch.

Well they are allowed to get dressed as they like in Saudi Arabia I lived there for a couple of years
I don't know about the driving thing so I wouldn't talk about it
and showing the face gah many people get this wrong
let me explain this to you
is Saudi Arabia is is as Rabea said cultural fathers and husbands are the one who wouldn't let their wives daughters to show their faces not the law
their is no law about that or even about hijab it is all a cultural thing and if they really run Islamic laws in Saudi Arabia I think they should know it is a personal freedom that is what Islam said.

Who said Americans are Evil??

we all do mistakes and we don't blame a person or others mistakes
I find this subject pointless too cause all the events we talking about is past ( History ) means nothing will change even if we talked it over a billion time not just a million

I wasn't singling you out,Noura. And we vote each individual leader in, so its hard to say its not the people. The majority vote wins. Yes I believe everyone is mislead in this world.

As for my Americans are evil comment, that was tongue in cheek. We need sarcasm font lol

Hmm I even don't think it is about evil or good
war is war and is hated by everybody but the ones leading it
and again the power changes people , might think they are good by due to their own sake and sometimes their countries sake they do things that seem wrong to others

I stated exactly who the enemy is ;)
Britt
You and I and everyone else are alike
We are mislead, all of us! I don't pretend to know better because I don't and like you my stance comes out of emotions
The enemy is not you. You are the public and I'm confined with the fact that through us. You hear our side of the story

The war of this world should be one
To empower the powerless
And to be able to do that we have to stand against oppression ;)

Max I live in Jeddah so id know
;) Ill take pics for u to see the raves we do here and you're going to change your mind :p heaven

Like I stated earlier, no one is changing anyone's minds here, especially when people debate history, or discuss 9.11. Everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it, but it doesn't mean it has to be said, especially when its so offensive to people who don't agree. That goes for both sides.

LOL well my friends tell me about it all =P
but not the driving girls xD we never took the talk for that

I know people from ELkhobr and ELReyad and a few from Jeddah cause I didn't spend much time there

most of my stay was on the coast =P

With that being said britt I hope mods come to a conclusion that political threads should be banned
Or moved away from the member forums
Althought I most certianlly miss it but I'd love to have the serenity and tranquility of not debating every once in a while

Well I like looking at others opinions so it would be a great loss for me if these kind of threads is banned or moved away but I guess it would be better cause some people ( and I might be one of those people sometimes )
can't express their opinions in a non offensive way and then the other team will be offensive in a defense action
and it will lead to bla bla bla

Um, I'm not saying they should be banned. I'm giving insight as to why I don't think Americans were jumping in to defend the claims against us. People get tired of the same ole crap.

"You guys feel ok if we suffer."

Noura...those are some big words. Think next time.

The entire situation surrounding The United States and the middle east is so far beyond our scope that I don't even know why we bother talking about it.

The ripple effect caused by the destruction of the WTC is incredibly large and, at this point, has exceeded necessity.

I do not agree with the reaction from the US. I understand the need to make your country feel safe, but the US has by now overstepped its boundaries in terms of security and war in my opinion.

What bothers me is that since 9/11 there seems to be a shroud in north american society. We are belonging less and less to ourselves and more to our government (Yes, it's happening in Canada, too, and it's quite sickening). The sad part is that the majority of people over here think that our security measures are okay.

I find it quite disheartening to even be indirectly related to what is happening over seas from here.

At this point in our world's history, we need to focus on building worldwide trust and compassion. Unfortunately the idea of 'compassion' seems to be a foreign concept to our world's populous. Especially in the west. We're all more concerned with our money, possessions and how we look - these are the things that we truly wish to protect.

Hmm
maybe cause I haven't seen much debates about that subject before I might not know what claims
but if the same things just kept repeating and in your opinions those are just lies then u are right to drop out of any thread about it

The leaders, are only as good as the population that elects them. The leaders we chose are faces from the same society. And so are the terrorists.

And pointing out our governments mistakes, does not constitute for terrorism. But too often we read about political killings.

Wars, will not stop. Government does abysmal things on a daily basis. Browse the internet enough and one will find articles stating political leaders and their connections with terrorism. Government has bombed their own people and will continue to do so.

The general public is blind to the activities that are carried out behind the curtains. Only because the general population is busy making a living, relationships, etc. Their is none to blame.

As Rabea understands, the wars are never between two countries, only governments. Leaders will orate lengthy speeches and declare wars to display power. Political leaders are given protection as a priority. They have bunkers, bullet proof cars. Bullet proof cars my god, they have cars that can withstand mines, rocket launchers, small scale detonations. Who does not have the same protection?. .guess? It is futile to complain. Democracy, communism, capitalism, its all the same. Much like patriotism, which once was a choice is now forced upon. Soon enough ones patriotism will be limited to the vicinity of their four walls. The general public had complaints, have and it shall continue.

And no offense to anybody =)

Just refrain from personal attacks or calls for violence.
Thanks for editing Rab

Hey V*5 brother
If I could rate ur post I'd give it 10 out 10
Hands down
Governments are evil
Power to the people
This will be my last post unless someone shoots something my way or says something that I strongly disagree with
Peace love n happiness

Vi, thanks for saying all of those things.

It's true, we always blame each other for these problems when all that common people do is try to live in spite of all the horrors in our world. We are the ones who are in power, but government issue weapons keep us at bay, no?