LP, shall we debate here?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
what's the difference between Moslim and Muslim? It's not an English word eventually......

anyway... I sure should read more and vary my resources, but too bad I am having a problem in believing because with our technological devices, we can be misled like donkeys..... UFOs became a fact, Ghosts, too... Lady Gaga became an Icon... what else? Bin Ladin was a NATIONAL THREAT, and USA couldn't trace him...; do you believe it!? HA.

Oh this world is mind perplexing. I don't want to laugh,,, but cry....

Noura, you should correct what you though of. Every nation has its cultures, and we should respect that.

"Lady Gaga became an Icon"

NO. I refuse to believe she is an icon.

LP I've always questioned why (most) Arabs I know state Moslim, and we use a U. Do you know why, or if one is (more) correct over the other?

...it seems to me, from what I got in history class anyways. speaking from only what I got in school..

America, is the only country... who jumps in, even when they ain't asked for. in history class..
when we spoke of America...

I always named it a "Hay la cucharrita" which means, "Oy, the spoon" because you know, spoons are always digging in everything...

people are very harsh when it comes to America, the main thing with America is their Yankee dollar. do.not.mess.with.their.yankee.dollar okay...

but truth of the matter is, from where I see it..
if America, who is one of the most powerful countries in this world...was not willing to dig in...

where would we be?...

--
Why am I even here tho, and why am I even talking XD

but I love debates like this.... lol
so much to find out about those far away places I'd love to travel to

Xoxo

The spelling variation 'moslim' vs. 'muslem' just has to do with how each language community perceives the vowel present in the word.

It's difficult to show here, since we can't use the phonetic alphabet.

The 'u' in 'Muslim' when spoken in Arabic is not quite an 'o' or an 'u' in English.

Because our orthography is limited to sounds that we have in our language alone, we had to choose one or the other.

People who speak English as a second language may perceive 'o' as a more fitting vowel, since it sounds a bit more like an 'o' in their own language.

In theory, neither is more correct than the other, because our 'u' is based more on our knowledge of English vs Arabic and their 'o' is based on their knowledge of Arabic vs. English. There's really no right or wrong, see?

Same goes for the 'i' vs 'e.'

Does that help? XD
----------------------------------------------------------
I'm finding that when I read some posts here, people tend to stick strictly to one side or the other and get so frustrated for no reason. Compare your knowledge to that of others and instead of being so condescending realize that there's room for error - as well as learning - in a debate such as this. Nobody's ideas are no more right than anyone else's here. Keep in mind that most of our opinions here are based strictly on conspiracy theory.

The real truth is that nobody knows who or what Bin Laden was except for the people who were directly involved.

That does help, Jordan. Thanks! I wonder then, is it technically pronounced like moozlum, mooslum, or muz-lum?

This is the stuff my brain comes up with. Sigh lol

Mous lim

Thats exactly how we pronounce it and how it sounds when people say it

It is pronounced as moslim

Rabea I believe the U isn't necessary here

"Mous lim "

This is what I'm getting at when I say that it "just has to do with how each language community perceives the vowel present in the word" and "Because our orthography is limited to sounds that we have in our language alone, we had to choose one or the other."

When I read "Mous lim," my pronunciation was something akin to "mouse+limb" which I'm pretty sure is not the pronunciation.

As I was saying, 'mos' and 'mus' are technically both right/wrong because it depends on how you percieve the English 'o'/'u' vs the arabic 'u.' (there is actually no equivalent to English 'o' in the standard dialects of Arabic.)

We have to keep in mind, to, that there are approximately 26 (or more) dialects of Arabic in which the vowels may vary.

I did not read all the posts, I have decided long ago not to put my nose in these debates, but it gets really ironic to see that everyone is only trying their best to make the other part believe and accept the truth that they believe in, without trying to understand things.

I have heard that we have two ears and one tongue, to listen more than we talk. But that's not the case, I will make short points.

1)9/11 was horrible, it hurt many people and destroyed families and shook the world, it doesn't matter how many people were killed, every human soul is precious and priceless. Whether 100 or 1000 or millions during the crash of the towers or the during the daily wars, none should be tolerated, none should be underestimated. A loss, is a loss. Grief is grief. Ofcourse losing one child is different than a 100, and the ugly ways of how people are murdered also leave different impacts. BUT still no human soul is to be underestimated despite color, despite believes, despite nationality!

2)The genocides and daily massacres around the world, whether against Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, whichever country, we have to accept that THEY are being tolerated by those who rule the world, it's a fact, not an opinion. We don't need history to know that governments have powers, if they have powers to start wars and build weapons then for sure they have the power to end wars. US government, British, Russian ETC , no body will be able to really convince the whole part of the world that an X part is responsible, but whatever I don't care, no body really knows the truth, stop trying to convince each others by enforcing your ownselves on others. What you witness in your country is a FACT, because it is happening infront of you, no body can deny that, but that doesn't mean that you have TRUTH. no body does.

3)Isreal-Arabic conflict is an issue that have been going on for uncountable years, and many of you guys want to solve it here, in a poetry dedicated website. Like really ? Welll people who knew much more than everyone else over here could not find a solution, nor an explanation, nor a way to end it for GOOD> despite who is right, despite who is bad.

For a blue color who lost his child by a red color, the red color is guilty and bad and evil. That's logical.
For the red color whose father was murdered by the red colors father, all red colors are evil and scary and should
be killed. That's factual.
Green was robbed by pink, pink denies the crime. That's LIFE.
Everyone of us, is a blue, a red, a green and a pink. We lose and we gain, we fight we do mistakes,
and others kill us and others fight us, and others do mistakes against us.
WE do mistakes against our ownselves. THIS IS LIFE.

You cannot make the whole world agree on one point! How will someone forget the people he have lost
and sympathize with yours ? How will you ignore the pain you endure, the past that is drenched in blood and
forgive and tolerate who have done it ?
Stop underestimating, stop claiming and stop acting confidence as if you have the truth in the palms of your hands. If that is true, go change the world. Nothin can beat truth.

4) Moslims, Mouzlems, Muslims, ..come on guys :) ! Guys, why don't you all cut it off ^__^, it's quiet clear who are the people aimed, why to be so ironic about how someone spells it, let us just accept ACCENTS ?! lol it isn't right, nor wrong. It's a word. If you search for MUSLIM in dictionaries such as Merriam Webster, it says:

an adherent of Islam

^
it gave an answer, a result, which means the spelling isn't an issue.
Sounds like MOZ-LEMZ

5)history books are exactly HIS STORY HIS TO TY.., got it ?
no ?
Ya, it's how your people want you to see things,
history books are not holly books. I already said what you witness infront of your eyes are facts that
no body can deny, but that doesn't make out of you a holder of truth. It's bigger than all of us,
and does not even exist in our fake world.

6) We all have our own issues, targeting and singling individuals is the stupidest thing
one can ever do, it's people with big authorities and powers. Not the people, not the nation.

7) We all have rights that are stolen, no ones right is less important than someone else's.

8)Why don't we all accept that we all have different stories, and rather than trying to
take sides and try do the impossible like showing someone who lives in north pole
how the ice looks like in south pole, to just TELL your story, share the FACTS you are
living.

Americans Arabs...hatered is there between some individuals but that's just because of HIS STORY, and the facts
people are witnessing. We should all try look for peace and try to be less biased and more logical.

These debates are going no where if some of these points are not well thought of, not because
I am smart, I did not come up with them, these are Facts.

But I know you all well, somehow, you will jjust go on and on without trying to understand the reasons why that other side feels or thinks in a certain way.

Nana sounds like my dad giving me a lecture
Gahgahaa
I wuv u nanii

And Jordan u r spot on actually
100% right

Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJsAaqTuTM

^ One link. Regardless of what is going on with the world. I expect as such from every individual still in possession of his/her conscience.

Nana, you are becoming my favorite daughter.

Shh!
Don't tell Meme or Noura

Lol Rabea, well lectures tend to be boring, do you know why ? Because our parents are always right
wink wink**

And lol yay me! I sure won't. (:

I am impressed with a couple of posts in here. Vi, what you said was completely correct and I rate it 10 as Rab stated, but the problem is nobody thinks the same nowadays, especially those who had lost loved-ones like myself. Some people just need to question this unfairness going on in the world. Some people just miss peace. You have it, of course you're going to think... 'hey why don't we rest our heads and let the governments do as they crave because we're the public and we probably cannot help it, we don't matter anyways' but I with millions of Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, Afghanis and perhaps ... Americans are living bitterness at its best. We need to rise, fight, conquer and win. Plus, I and lots of people believe public can be the most important and the strongest weapon against injustice. Why would public act nonchalant and irrelevant like this?

I am not pointing fingers nor accusing you guys of anything. Again, that's not my intention. I am only a seventeen year-old girl who probably knows nothing. But I know, deeply know that a human should die one piece and be buried one piece - unlike how my uncle was murdered and buried.

Sorry, I might really be just a frustrated person in this whole discussion and... I envy you people for your relaxed nerves. I just can't be the same.

Edited: And I hold no grudge against anybody. Whether American or Israeli or Arabic.

Nana, I loved most of your post and I love your attitude and you know that. However, I disagree with you on something.
Maybe because this is one hell of a beautiful poetry website, I tend to voice my opinion. Maybe if this is the UN, I wouldn't be as confessional and talkative. So yup.

Noura. Firstly, my condolences. I do read almost every thread and every post. I mostly observe, answers and the authors as well, seldom post. So, forgive me for not participating physically in your times of need. You recently lost a family member, thus you are entitled to be paranoid.

My primary intention is not to encourage people to sit back and let things roll in the government ordained fashion. Rather I am speculating a change of behavior and mental approach.

Every country has its problems. India may not be in a state of war, but people are frustrated with the quality of life here. People dying of hunger and diseases is as horrific as people dying from grenades and bullets. I am dying to leave this country. I am desperate, actually.

Too often we have been accusing the government body. One must realize, the government body is made of up chosen, individual human beings. They are no different from the general public. A president is no different then say, your neighbor next door. Your milkman, or a relative. Every individual working in the government body is just a normal human being. Just as we eat, they do too. They, at the end of the day too seek love, affection and do approach their families. And in certain cases, mistresses :P (This isnt inappropriate, is it? a harmless humor)

Thus, the change cannot come from the government. It has to come from the masses. I heard once - History is made by the individual and not the masses.

But revolution is a mass movement. Changes can occur only when people take the first step with the vision of refinement, to minimize the flaws. To eliminate the dogmatic prison of mentality.

I have read and observed enough, reading as much as 200-500 articles a day. And my plain advice to anyone would be pretty much the same. In any circumstances, spend what amount of time you can with your family, spend money on food rather than branded clothes. Having someone to scold at you out of love, someone to spoil you. That, is the real wealth one can posses. Life is fragile. And what horrors we observe is only the tip of the ice berg. There is enough good in the world, just not enough to please me personally. I'd rather move to small country. As remote as Barrow, Alaska. Where I could, in the near future let my children play outside the home or go to school, with minimum fear of them being shot or bombarded. I seek a simple peaceful life and I shall have it in anyway I can, be it on mountain tops or forests, or a cave. Ones happiness is within his/her hands.

Oh and age has nothing to do with maturity, 17 is as good as 70. And I did not just call you old :P

Peace :)

^
Like.

^
Agreed.

It's interesting how some choose to undermine the horror of 9/11 because, "my country has lost more lives, so my country is the victim." That's a bad attitude. We are victims of our own ignorance and greed and hunger for vengeance, and that's the truth.

One innocent life lost is sad. 1, 100, 1,000, 1,000,000. These are individuals being killed. Does it matter how many? The difference between 'has happened' and 'happening' is that we can do something about the latter. There are things we can do as individuals to help individual life. Something as small as not buying products from exploited countries (look for Made in [your country here]). Don't sign up for the war, don't blame others for your actions, strive for a career that has meaning, don't vote without knowledge, teach young people good ethics.

Vi has a point. The people in government are not special. The situation in which they find themselves is special. Most people are corruptible by power, or manipulatable by those in power. The power the individual not in government has over his country's government is laughable. Sure, I voted for someone out of a handful of people. Why did I vote for them? Because they had enough money in their campaign team to trick me into believing they're the best candidate. The other reason is because other candidates were made to seem bat-shit crazy. Do I have any real clue about this person in office? No, but he's calling the shots. No wait, he's not! Whoever's buying him off, lying to him, or threatening him is who's calling the shots. I can only speculate as to who that is.

You know what's sad? If I wanted to draft a bill to be reviewed by Congress, I would have no idea where to begin. I wouldn't have the knowledge, the time, the funds, or the manpower. Even if I did, some individuals in Congress, corrupt by power and manipulated by power, would review it.
I really have no control over my government whatsoever. None of us do, but some of us are foolish enough to think we do.

People with power are running the show. Money is power. Power is money. What votes you cast are influenced by paid propaganda. I didn't vote for the war. A lot of people who did had no idea what they were voting for. The man on top will do what he wants to do, but he'll do it with a big grin on his face and a jolly pat on your back.
The Gettysburg Address, anyone? A "government of the people, by the people, for the people." Excuse me, what people! A lot of what happens by the hands of the U.S. government is not of me, by me, or for me. We rule by numbers, and that is why we place minimal value on individual life. Numbers, numbers, numbers corrupted; numbers manipulated.

Obama will come into office promising to withdraw troops, but once he's in, there's no telling what he'll do. He might tell me he's doing one thing under the guise of something else, but who's the wiser? Is he to blame? Probably not. I don't know.

Even as someone who cares about human suffering, I am unwittingly supporting my country in things I don't believe in pretty much every day just by being a working, tax paying citizen and consumer.

*On a lighter note, who has seen The Campaign? It's in theaters now.

The second part of my post...about the spelling of muslim was nothing more than my poor attempt at humour and was not intended to be made into a mountain....I'm sorry if this part of my post was taken out of context but....thanks Jordan for your information. I've honestly seen the word spelled differently on many occasions but...either way is fine by me. I guess....when I say the word with my accent, it would sound something like....moozlum :)

Wow, I missed alot, thank you barracks internet for sucking :P

to touch further on the subject sence I missed so much of the fun, Americans have just as much evil has the rest of the world. Ours is more focused on. Our main problems, A. we are a capitolist country ran by overly educated, power hungry manipultive political idiots, B. we like playing big brother, and C. we focus too much on racism, IE. Obama was voted in based on the color of his skin and not the content of his charactar, if race didnt mean two shits people would of seen him for the retard he was.

Sam...most of this post I'm going to leave alone because I don't live there but this one...

we are a capitolist country ran by overly educated..

not even going to run with the rest of the sentence just the overly educated part ...do you mean someone like Ronald Regan maybe?....definately over educated he was :)

A "government of the people, by the people, for the people." Excuse me, what people!

^ Now that, is the correct exclamation.

The current leaders chose to run the course along the lines as their predecessors have. A radically different machine, a leader with the ability to sustain the self righteousness never makes it to the top. He is set aside with blackmail or in many cases death.

Power corrupts. Which does not imply that one should not posses power. Very few have been bestowed upon with enough self control to not get drunk on power. The society can not and will not function with the goal of equality. There will always be the diving line between the poor and the rich. We may eventually stop discriminating on skin color. But the problem of differentiating on the basis of religion is deep rooted. Religion does not bifurcate people into multiple caste, upper - lower caste per say. But the followers do. Atleast many of the religions dont. An individual must cultivate the universal perspective, that humanity is the most needed religion.

And to quote a visionary.

"They won't listen. Do you know why? Because they have certain fixed notions about the past. Any change would be blasphemy in their eyes, even if it were the truth. They don't want the truth; they want their traditions." - Isaac Asimov.

"Overly educated"

Yet we are ranked pretty low compared to other industrialized countries.

http://broadeducation.org/about/crisis_stats.html

I love my country, but there's a lot that could be better.

A lot.

Our main problems, A. we are a capitolist country ran by overly educated, power hungry manipultive political idiots, B. we like playing big brother, and C. we focus too much on racism, IE. Obama was voted in based on the color of his skin and not the content of his charactar, if race didnt mean two shits people would of seen him for the retard he was.

^ Samuel: I hope these are your personal views, because I as an American certainly do not share in any of your views here, nor of your opinion on Obama (he certainly has more credentials and experience than any of us here, though Republicans would always disagree. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama )
However, I do not disagree with some of your other views.

Gaurav: Your opinions are unbiased, and those of a well read individual, so kudos to you.

Hellon: As usual, I love the way you question misguided wisdom or "raise hell", as many would like to say. :)

America Haters: I wrote a whole big response to your thoughts, but (luckily or unluckily) it disappeared by my miscued keystroke when I went to post it. So, I will not recreate it but smile at your (wisdom) :) for the moment.

Muslims vs. Jews; Israel s. Palestinians: Grow up, learn to live in Peace. The whole world is only interested in seeing that Peace prevails amongst brethrens and neighbors one day......they have no other interest in your fiddle minded bickering. Are you folks not brethrens, in the same God's eyes? So why not solve your own problems, rather than asking others, or blaming America or the entire World. There are more important things in the World to attend to..poverty, hunger, disease, catastrophies.

Jane, Britt, Maple Tree, Chelsey, Jordan and perhaps Ms. Sunshine and everyone who showed restraint in this debate: You are truly wise, and reflect what an American truly believes in...World citizenship, Peace, Liberty, Freedom, self-empowerment, trust and progress. We do not specialize in settling bickering between "warring" religious groups. But, when asked to intervene to save needless harm to human lives, we support our country and President.

Yaki: You are 50% right, and 50% wrong...:)
No, America is not about ..."spoons always digging in everything...
OR
people are very harsh when it comes to America, the main thing with America is their Yankee dollar"

You have another 50% to go to get there (Hollywood) and be famous. :0 XD

I have read every post here and remained quiet, however I would now like to say;

This site is great for escaping all the nonsense that goes on in the 'real' world. I like nothing more than after a hard days graft, to sit on my pc (once the wife and kids are in bed) and read and review poems by like minded 'great' people all over the world. I also enjoy people reading my stuff and commenting,

This is great escapism folks,

By bringing all this on here we are losing this quality of PNQ

(I don't agree with any wars or people dying in wars BTW, theres not much I can do about it apart from educate my children to respect themselves and other people)

'Grow up, learn to live in Peace. The whole world is only interested in seeing that Peace prevails amongst brethrens and neighbors one day......they have no other interest in your fiddle minded bickering. Are you folks not brethrens, in the same God's eyes? So why not solve your own problems, rather than asking others, or blaming America or the entire World. There are more important things in the World to attend to..poverty, hunger, disease, catastrophies.'

What a very immature response. Perhaps the longer version would have sounded even funnier, you should've kept it. When you're a weak person and someone is taking advantage of that and oppressing you, I find it hard to tell you, if you shout out loud asking for justice, 'hey we want peace so get the hell away and solve your own problems'. But you, obviously, would be ok saying that. And that proves what I said bout 'some people feel ok if we suffer'.

Apparently, Lonely something, you're enjoying the way we 'nag' for our freedom and rights, you ironically have the right to. Because we, Arabs, are weak and ..... I change my mind, it's true the quote that says: people will treat you the way you let them treat you. We acted weak and such words are our punishment.

And...you're not wise, nor abstract.

Poetess: Each time I have sympathized with you, I have been burnt by a personally directed comment. You are just too hot to handle. Ha!

^ Your comment:
"And...you're not wise, nor abstract" seems to be coming from some inner unresolved issues and is personally directed. I suppose you are a much "wiser" lady, who has better solutions than me or a lot of people who offer opinions on a peaceful resolution to a centuries old dispute, and get burnt in attempting to do so.
So without disrespect, God bless you! I see no reason to further the dispute.
Yet, I see no reason why the rest of the World should jump in to the Arab or the Israeli cause and favor one over the other, and get their son's and daughter's killed and earn more hatred from both parties for doing so....it is not their creation after all. As I had said before, the dispute is all about 2 brethrens (belonging to 2 different religions) who see the ownership of the same Holy Land differently, based on their religious and political contentions, to suit their individual views, each of whom wants sympathy for their cause from the rest of the world.

If brethrens hate each others so much, their dispute needs to be resolved in GOD's court, not here on PnQ.

Nour you go girl
You go way hard

Anyways, I wrote something almost 1 year ago, decided not to post it back then but it seems I have to, for people like loenly soul who truly belives in equality and freedom for all

Gaza

When people are left with no choice but to cement together bombed and smashed bricks in order to rebuild something resembling their homes because bricks are not being allowed into Gaza, obviously, something is wrong with the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_allowed_or_banned_for_import_into_Gaza)

When children and elders are dying from treatable illnesses because medicines are not being allowed into Gaza, something is also wrong with the world (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/indepth/2011-06/14/c_13929519.htm)
When babies are being born with deformities because of the weapons they've used in that December or in that January. You know there is something wrong with the picture (http://gazatoday.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-birth-defects-seen-in-gaza-due-to.html)

When there is something in Israeli low, called the grandparents clause, that entitles any human being anywhere in the face of this planet who could prove that they have one Jewish grandparent to Israeli citizenship, yet people whose grandparents, great grandparents are from Jerusalem, when they don't have citizenships, but yet, these people who have Jewish heritage, all of a sudden entitled to citizenships, there is something wrong with the world (http://www.alara.net/xbooks/mischling.txt)

I Speak to you guys when I say this, as people who carry passports and citizenships which are not only responsible for the Belford deceleration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917) but is also one of Israel's main killing machine suppliers
Isn't it your duty to go and visit Gaza and the west bank, in order to understand the human side of this issue I'm typing to you about?
I urge all of you who hold precious US passports to travel to Gaza, and see how your Taxes have been spent, Go there, and see how the bombs which read, Made in America, have been received
The united stated government with its estimated 1000 military bases worldwide, from Japan, to UAE, to Egypt and Columbia, and its monopoly on the arms industry, didn't only allow these crimes to happen, it collaborated on these crimes against humanity, and whether you want to admit it or not, the people of Gaza can never, and will never forget this collaboration.

The siege, or blockade, whatever you decide to call it, is another example of Israel attempting to play God with people's lives.
But why has this siege become an accepted norm in the eyes of the world?
Because of the same media outlets who so beautifully counted the exact number of rockets fired from Gaza onto lands, us Palestinians were forced to leave through murder and pillage
I wonder if these same media outlets ever bothered to count how many tins of beans or pieces of bread were not allowed to reach the hungry bellies of Gaza,
Furthermore, did any of these Influential media outlets bothered to count how many American made
White phosphorus bombs were dropped on the heads of these human beings in Gaza?

My people's struggle, is a struggle for public perception, 1st, and foremost, because there is a machine at work, that wants you to believe that a man with a rocket launcher, no passport, and no nationality is more a threat to humanity then a state which has invaded and occupied every single neighboring country (Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt) and it is armed with its teeth with the most sophisticated killing machine on the face of this planet

These same media outlets want you to believe a man with a beard and a rock sack is more a threat to all humanity than the killing machine which were produced by BEA systems, every single day,
Even the recent disputes between Obama, and Netanyahu administrations, was not enough to even pause these abnormally relationship Israeli shares with American made killing machines
While Netanyahu was in Washington supposedly being chastised, The pentagon and Israel were in the process of signing a massive arms deal but of course that wasn't reported in the main stream press over there, was it? No
It seems that of the most honest reporting of Israeli's actions, one can only rely on certain voices within the Israeli press, there's an article in the newspaper Haartz, dated 30th of march, 2010, Israel will purchase three new Hercules C 130J airplanes, the Deal for the three aircrafts designed, is worth roughly a quarter billion dollar, each aircraft costs 70 million dollars
The aircraft was manufactured specifically for Israeli needs and included a large number of systems
Produced by the Israeli defense industry, here is the important part
The deal was covered by American foreign assistant funds. (http://www.haaretz.com/news/exclusive-despite-row-u-s-and-israel-sign-massive-arms-deal-1.266650)

So you see, while this show of disagreement was played out for the world press, the continued relationship of collaboration was still very firmly in place
Israel has numerously bombed Gaza since then on a few separate occasions, maybe they were testing their new equipments, after all, America doesn't allocate foreign assistants for nothing, and they don't do weapons of mass destruction for nothing either.

And while the world sleeps, the crimes against humanity continue, but why is it deemed acceptable for such crimes to be committed on the indigenous people of that very important land?
Simply because the governments of The United kingdom, USA, and Israel, is they have demonstrated time, and time again, without fail, refuse to recognize our humanity,
But what about you?
The humans, the people of UK, and the people of USA, where do you stand?

And while it is easy to spot the line of division on this matter, it's not a line dividing Jewish and Arab opinions, it's not a line dividing Jewish and Muslim opinion, nor is it a line dividing Israeli and Palestinian opinion, it is a line dividing those who believe of the equality of all, and those who believe in the supremacy of some, this is my people's struggle, to bring equality, nothing more, and nothing less, our struggle, is not about the supremacy of anyone, or the dehumanization of anyone, that is Zionism , our struggle is about the humanization and the equality of all.
God bless....

Wow! what misguided comments.

First seek American and (West's) sympathy, then seek ways to demean their help and the blood shed by them for defending human rights and plight in this part of the world (eg 1st gulf War, where the Iraqui dictator took over Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Israel by his military might) by more fuel and propaganda...

Then support another rogue nation fueling war (Iran) and suppressing women's and human rights using "religious dictums" from God and calling Americans blasphemists and anti-God! I suppose they were all the creation of the Western media too! Americans have no better things to do than to twist history in favor of one religious group against another or to fuel a covert war.

This country was not founded by a religious group nor favors one (Religion is forbidden to be taught in public schools because it violates the free speech of others). It is a peace loving nation, one with a very big heart and compassion for the entire humanity. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu's and more, all live here in peace with each other and serve in public office only after taking an oath to serve without prejudice. American policy has always been only to reach out to those who are in true need, only when all other peaceful means to resolve a crisis have failed. It maintains bases around the world to maintain peace, not to threaten people and countries. Its sons and daughters go in to war only when no other options are left to defuse a crisis.

Perhaps look in your own backyard first, as Nicko said in a previous post, before throwing mud at the American policy. Examine the real causes of what provoked what. Were all the missiles, suicide bombers sending a message of Peace for years from Gaza? Were the incessant barrage of missiles from Iran to Israel during the Gulf War I (mandated by a UN resolution to liberate Kuwait) message for peace? Were the missiles and bombs set off by Hezbollah and other radical groups to take life of innocents a peace proposal? Was the Munich Olympic massacre of 1972 a way to show to the world that we are peaceful people? Were the Embassy bombings, aircraft hijackings, and attacks on Jews or Americans/Westerners or holding them as hostages in numerous countries in the last 15-20 years an offer for peace?

Here is a fuller compilation of what some others think of the dispute for everyone to read and decide:
http://www.middleeastpiece.com/palestinianviolence.html

Have you seen the film Gandhi or read his approach? Do you truly know how Martin Luther King won freedom for the oppressed in this country? Did Nelson Mandela preach or carry out physical war to win freedom? Yet, these great folks are respected worldwide have won world acclaim or nobel peace prizes, with little dispute, for preaching peace. They won their adversaries over by love, not preaching "war".

"(Religion is forbidden to be taught in public schools because it violates the free speech of others)"

Actually, it would violate the Establishment Clause on which separation of Church & State is based:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." - First Amendment to the US Constitution.

'Yet, I see no reason why the rest of the World should jump in to the Arab or the Israeli cause and favor one over the other, and get their son's and daughter's killed and earn more hatred from both parties for doing so'

Bla bla bla. If America and the rest of the gang could stop itself from jumping over us Palestinians and favoring Israel, we would have been freed since 1949. How many Vetos your country have made protecting Israel while it was killing us? Oh please. You're the misguided here.

And yes, my comment was directed at you and your oh look at me attitude.

No line has been crossed yet, but it's close.

B r e a t h e !

Drop the personal attacks

Which side is Russia on......?

I forget where they used to give most of there guns too....?

laa dee darr laa dee daar

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances (text of the First Amendment, US constitution)".

^ You are very right Larry, I mixed up the free speech with freedom of religion, in quoting the Bill of Rights. Nevertheless, the very text of the Bill of Rights just illustrates how wise our forefathers were in treating everyone's religion with respect, and not suppressing anyone's free speech (= thoughts). No wonder, the Bill of Rights is so unique and protective to every Americans basic rights. There is no other bill like this in the World.

The famous phrase "separation of church and state" is I believe in a letter written by President Thomas Jefferson in 1802, published in a Massachusetts newspaper, reaffirming the contents of the First amendment, and used by the courts in many rulings thereafter.
---------------------------------------------
For all who favor fanaticism in the Palestinian cause :

Disrespecting people or their opinions does not earn anyone more respect. Nor, does bombings/killings of innocent people the World over.
A particularly disrespectful poem against America/Americans that I read (now deleted) a year ago or more, did very little to enhance and foster friendship or Peace. I vividly remember the furore it led to and the exodus from the club of a few people, including a young friend of mine.
I have colleagues and friends from Iran and Palestine, and even one from Syria and a few from Lebanon. My friendliest neighbor is a Palestinian, originally from Iran. They live in this country as Americans, and I hope have as much respect for the soil which feeds them as I do, and the opportunity they get from being an American, a "free" person. 750,000 Iranians live in Southern California, in and around LA, today...the largest Iranian community outside of Iran, many of them successfully thriving professionals, businessmen, scientists and others. Likewise, several thousand Palestinians are spread all over the US.

And despite what America does for the welfare of all the folks who immigrate here looking for opportunity (many of them came seeking educational and financial opportunities, some as refugees when Iran had a fundamentalist civil uprising when the Shah was deposed), we have a warning today from our Police chief (based on a National briefing from Dept. of Homeland Security) that Hezbollah and Iranian govt. agents have infiltrated the city and are actively involved in planning Terror Plots (this is not a Zionist propaganda...our intelligence is real). http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/08/29/lapd-active-terror-plots-linked-to-iran-hezbollah-sovereign-citizens/feed/
I hope and pray, that terror does not show its ugly face again, here in America. We are victims of exported terror too (9/11 being the worst), thanks to Bin Laden and his creation the Al Quaeda, a radical militant Sunni organization with its only aim to create "jihad" the world over and punish the non-believers of their philosophy, based on their misinterpretations of a holy text....which people want to blame on America, what a paradoxical interpretation! Before blaming it on "America" and "zionist propaganda", have we even once thought that how much harm this single organization has caused to the world, in terms of expense (incl. bringing about economic ruin to America and the West) and loss of human life, in the name of a "religion". Disowning one of your own (religious) creations and blaming them on the West, is like washing your hands off the ugly truth that is revealed? So much for people who continue to fight in the name of religion......no one is going to win this fight, as long as religious fanatics and their supporters exist.

I think, I have said enough, and hopefully on behalf of all who are likeminded, seeking Peace world over. I had to answer to the call, unfortunately, as no one else wanted to get entangled with this. If you folks agree with some or all of what I have stated, show your support right here please, and this ugly divisive debate will not show its head again and again here in PnQ.

North ears; south tongue.

I bet on my soul, none of you is understanding the other. :]

I have to say i am surprised at the lack of restraint show in this thread, lonely id commend you for your argument - i for one am not in full view of the facts and so my comment is only brief, however i lived in Israel for a short period, i dont commend all the actions held by the Israeli government and also i dont commend the actions from Gaza either - this conflict has only harmed the people on both sides....mainly because of religion....the innocent people are the ones who suffer the most, the people who embrace the differences between culture and religion because they are the one's from my experience who are will to draw a line under this messy affair. i witnessed attacks in Israel on school buses, hospitals and other non- military targets which to be quite frank were clearly targeted in a vulgar display of power.

Now dont get me wrong, i know that similar attacks have also happened on the other side of the wall and it disgusts me just as much, i can only talk about what i have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears because the media is rife with falsehood from all sides of this complicated coin. this is something im afraid will continue to happen over and over and over as it has done for many years until either one side obliterates the other or they can "draw the line in the sand"

i have visited many places in this region, Syria, the Leb, Iran, Israel and i fell in love with this corner of the world, i can only live in hope that i see this settled in my life time because honestly, the people in this corner of the world are truely beautiful - no matter which country they are from.

I Would agree with lonely that i wouldnt like to see this debate on pnq - it is one that can turn ugly and to be perfectly honest about it, i like to think of this place without boundaries, where people can go and put aside the dividing line between religion and cultures and race and just be "people"

Had composed a humongous post stating, why is violence inevitable. The limits of morality. The coming wars. The arsenal of weapons possessed by major countries. The treaties ratified and rejected over the years.

And the PC restarted. Pissed me off to no end :P

I wont compile the entire post again. Tedious.

Speaking of the two most powerful countries, that influenced the world wars.

Russia - At present has 11000+ nuclear heads. Of which 6000+ are active. 39,967 tons of chemicals weapons. Surplus amounts of biological weapons. And the highest number of tanks.

USA - At present has 5000+ nuclear heads. Approximately 30,000 tons of chemical weapons. Surplus amounts of biological weapons. And the most sophisticated and advanced aircrafts. There is a 45 minute speech given by a political and human rights activist, on the subject of USA, actively participating in almost every war waged in the last 50 years. About the United States foreign policy and the war in Afghanistan. And its attempt to control 2/3rd of the oil reserves on Earth.

And speaking of my country. Its only fair, to show I am unbiased. India has 80 nuclear heads. And weapons enough to last approximately 4 days in a state of war. I guess we are destined to be ruled over by others. :P

When composing the previous post I mentioned over 20 countries and their arsenal of weapons.

My point is, every country is stock piling weapons. Be it for offense or defense. The fear of being over powered is natural. The stockpiling will last only so long, after which it hits a peak. And soon enough, the war will come. And this time around, it is going to be ugly. It is inevitable. Not myself in specific, many activists, scientists, writers have been constantly criticizing wars.

Wars previously were not of a global scale due to redundant weaponry, contained within the confines of their cities or borders. Today the technology has enabled us to fight globally and in every way, be it air, water or land. Small wars have been constant since the dawn of mankind. Murder, rape or injustice, it is a part of how the world functions. Closing ones eye lids does not make the sun set, We constantly focus only on the good, thus ignore the bad. Not that one should not try to eradicate it. But it will help if one can at least accept it. Neither good nor bad can be eradicated completely. That would disrupt the balance. Good and bad tend to overpower each other from time to time. The History though not all of it correct, is a proof. People whether good or bad, both have gone down in the history books. They are remembered for being exceptional at what they did. Be it genocides or activism.

It may not be the most complex of theories that I may have come up with it. But think about it.

You see, I'm quite sure that people would love to look and point out hypocricy in each others, yet the thing we have in common is, all of us speak out of love of our people,
The truth of the matter is we all are strong opinanted and I doubt anyone would change anyone's opinion.
I for one personaly don't belive that it was a fight for freedom, since they have ventured to the middleeast they gave birth to a demon....
But the truth of the matter is we will all end up justifying the un-justifyable because we are human beings that act upon emotions, and being bais to your own is only human nature
LS, I still don't agree and if you want to engage in a lenghty chat in Pm to try and pin point what it's like then I am up for it anyday, my pleasure.

"Peace and freedom can never be given, that's historicaly forbiden, changing the course of destiny, so I'm strapped with weaponry, because the goverment don't give a f*** about protecting me'