Winners! Tuesday October 2, 2012

Nana's a goddess;
I wonder what PnQ
would be, without her.

Well Chels, I know, but when there's a 1 % of reason, I would take it and agree. But I can't find any, ANY reason to complain about someone's poem this way! O.o his poem is fine lol, or are we all now experts with Master Degrees in poetry and literature and do have qualifications to evaluate poetry. O.o

No grammar issues , not plagiarized, TWO judges were fond of it, and it was brought to the nominations page by someone else, who also thought it was worthy. So who said an X person's opinion is more worthy than the 3 different individuals.

I also wish people would commit, if they think, those committing aren't doing their job well, since Hellon complained about the comments too!

I believe this was all useless, you don't have to agree. But this went wrong, very wrong.

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Lol Abed :P that was too nice

No I do agree with you Nana which is why I said I don't think this was the thread to say something in since it should be "light and fluffy" and say congrats to winners....

I just had to agree with grammar errors because that drives me nuts. However I wasn't referring to max or any winners poems, just in general. I'm not sure who Hellon was referring to.

Yap, I agree also regarding grammar errors, that's what I stated. I just did not get why she referred to this, this week, talking about Max's poem as you can read:

"Now onto the only two judges to vote the same poem....really...well written?...actually it wasn't..it was not grammatically correct and...although I know english is not this member's first language shouldn't we be looking for a little more on our front page or....have standards dropped here?"
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It's like when we don't have problems, we start inventing ones! :/

I love your light and fluffy expression, lol sounds like you, when dancing and jumping on that bed :P

Lmaaoooo!! Like me when dancing and jumping on a bed! Yesssss which sounds awesome right about now, this thread could use some dancing lol

First of all congrats all!!

Hellon, may I ask you whether this was just refering to his poem not being grammatically correct: "shouldn't we be looking for a little more on our front page or....have standards dropped here?" or were you refering to the poem itself(apart from grammar) too?

I have to admit, that in my opinion it lacked puncutation in some verses, while in others it wasn't done properly, but I pointed that out (do not know whether Max changed it or not though). It sounded a bit "off" (though that is already too strong of a word) when reading to me, but I couldn't tell whether it was wrong.. so may someone who's capable of all grammar let me know if it is correct or not the way it is?

The thing is, that if it is the latter, then I know after all that you do not mean any harm by what you said, but it might be misunderstood nonetheless and I wonder what those "standards" are?

Edit: I can see why she wouldn't want to commit herself to being a judge though and as much as my reasoning might sound like an excuse it is how I feel: I do not believe that I am capable of judging, knowledge-wise and maybe even taste-wise as weird as it may sound. I do realize that even if judges follow specific criterias when judging, taste will eventually dominate the decision(that's what I believe at least... and maybe a poem being enjoyed can be explained with the chosen criteria), but anyways... I feel as though my opinion wouldn't represent the majority of the site and that is why I refuse to do it... oh and lack of time lol.

Edit2: Though I can sign what Hellon said about her pointing out mistakes, she did it various times on my poems.

Wow! Thankyou for the HM :-))) these poems were awesome all so deserves to be up there!!

Thanks judges and naaaanaaa!! X

Congratulations, winners & H'Ms.

Congrualtions winners
Real good poems and picks this week ,
If anyone belive that the panel of judges or a certain is incompetent and lacks the expertise of being a judge, they should point it out? No

Thanks for the win! And congrats to the other winners and HM's :)

Ok...There are a lot of questions here but I hope this will answer them all....I didn't read Max's poem before it hit the front page...it's not like me to miss one? but...I missed this so rather than continue here..I have now left a comment for himself and everyone to read...

I honestly think it's the judges fault. A poet should write whatever he/she wants, a nominator should have the freedom to nominate the 3 poems they want, too, but judges should know better and even if they didn't there should be a set of rules that judges judge according to, like language, punctuation, images, quality, creativity.. Etc. Certainly not their own tastes. Otherwise, Why have judges at all and not let the site pick and be done with it. We're not giving them judges status to let the taste of a selected few prevail, but in order for them to implement a set of rules that's applicable on all nominated poems in order to make the process fair as can be. It is a huge responsibility and not easy yet since they undertook it they should work accordingly.

I think their choice put us all, or at least the outspoken ones here, in an unnecessary awkward position, including Max. Max is a younger and newer member than most of us, he'll understand with time where we're coming from. We've all been there, I sure have as Hellon probably remembers. Abed for example used to think a poem that doesn't rhyme wasn't exactly a poem, now he writes them. Point is, we all change our styles or find one that's ours, there was just no need to rush him to the front page until then.

P.s. this might be a bit messy as I'm on my phone.

Judges fault ? so it's the judges fault that they thought the poem was good ? the poem is just fine, I don't get it, what's the mistake ?

younger, and newer...come on, when did we ever have a problem with newer members going to the front page, just because some think it's not good enough. We all get better, everyday, I can't believe this. Front page is just fine for any member, others were fond of his work. so what's the deal.

Not like one person decided to get him there, 2 judges, and the nominators . So their opinions and reasons should count.
I don't think his poem is less important than any of the poems written by every one else who posted over here, including me.

And sorry Norhan, but saying there is no need to rush him to the front page until then, is a direct message for the judges to disregard his work, if nominated again. Why are you people giving yourself the right to evaluate someone's work on the main forum without his permission, rather than commenting with guidelines for future poems.

If someone wants to object on someone else's poem going to front page, please start by objecting on your own work.

Confidence is good, originality is remarkable, so is creativity and quality, despite that language is the origin itself for poems. But that doesn't give anyone the right to keep on putting Maxin in such a situation, when no body objected on their poems going to the front page.

I think the process is just as fair as it is currently, some disagree with Hellon, as some agree. So no body can rule over here, I think it's good. Others may not, gives no body the right to keep on objecting.

Nana, you seem to have missed my whole point. Let re-explain, judges should not be selecting according to whether or not they like a poem. In fact, their should be a set of things they look for in a poem regardless what their taste is, like language, images, creativity, rhyme (if existent), flow, quality..etc. I think each one should be given even a certain number of points. Their personal tastes or likes and dislikes shouldn't play a role in the process, or at least not the main one. They are free to like the poem as readers or members but as judges, they should judge.

About newer members, yes there is a problem if their work still leaves a lot to be desired. The poem is not front page material, that does not mean that the author is bad, no. He has room to grow and win as many times as he likes, but now? Or at least with this piece? No.

The process is flawed, the judges gave nothing to support their choice except their personal taste or view. It's simply not enough.

The judges gave us the right to discuss their choice, more than his poem really, when they picked him as a front page winner to represent, obviously, us. We have the right to state what we think and to comment on his work or not, too.

Yes, I did get your point. What I can't understand from most of the posts over here, is this :

Judges been judging the same way since they started their term, relying on the same principles, the ones they relied on when picking the poems this past week...and no body objected ? until now...especially that it can't be taken down, so all these posts are giving the poet more pressure!

It doesn't give us the right to object on his poem going to the front page, no. If we have a problem with his poem, then we should comment with something that would benefit him instead.
Unless the intentions, are not that pure. Then that's a different story.

People don't usually come out and say something until someone else says it first.

I see

Abed for example used to think a poem that doesn't rhyme wasn't exactly a poem, now he writes them.

^ I don't think we had a conversation before. So how did you know? :P - that's not true.

-

Anyway... I may agree with Norhan on one thing only. I was a member of another site, and their contest has what she said. A poem is judged according to several factors (originality, imagery, grammar, etc...), and each factor has a specific score. Those with the highest win.

I don't know if it can be made here. Of course it would be better, but judges would have to work more.

Anyway... I may agree with Norhan on one thing only. I was a member of another site, and their contest has what she said. A poem is judged according to several factors (originality, imagery, grammar, etc...), and each factor has a specific score. Those with the highest win.

^
I also agree, I was wondering, why now :P last week, no body objected, nor the week before.
If this is going to make a change, why not.
If it won't, just unfair.

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And lol maybe you said it somewhere in the main forums ?

It doesn't matter how long they've been doing it, Nana. Things have been changing always and improving, I hope, and a lot of people have been complaining about the contest for sometime now.

Again, our problem isn't with the poem at all. He could write whatever and however he wants but when it comes to the contest there should be rules not the tastes of judges.

As to commenting, that's really my own choice and I do it, or not, when I want. I haven't committed myself like judges for a certain position with any benefits. My intentions are of really no importance.

Edit--
Actually abed, we did have this conversation.

No. No.

I am not standing in line with those objecting Max's poem. They are free to voice their opinion. But I don't think it should've been done here. They probably should've commented on his poem. Not all people will like the front page winners eventually. But it's not so good to come here and generalize.

Uhuh, if that works for you! And well those who have a problem should try do something about it, complaining doesn't help.

Yes I also did commit myself, and some others too, that's not the point. Point is, less people want to commit now, however, and more want to complain.

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@ Abed, no no, did you not read well ? they are free not nto comment dude, they have the right to tear it apart though if they don't think it's up for the needed quality. And it doesn't matter if no body objected on poems before, Max will be the 1st... there is always a 1st time. :P

^ Exactly.

I think less people want to commit because a lot of people are seeing either a trend with the contest, feel there is massive bias, or think it has turned into a joke.

I think this because of the conversations I have with people, and I wish they would express their concerns as well, but I guess they'd rather not do anything about anything. I have spent many years trying on this website... you can only do so much.

That's what I have been asking since a long time, but I was told it was base on likes ... The likes of the nominator and the judges pick the ones the want to highlight the most.

It's the weekly contest...

It's not a contest like the one from Mr. Larry where he has his own rules of what the poems will be about.

In the weekly contest everyone nominates the poem that they like, there are random topics... Some poems even come from the contest held in the club contests and those have their own rules... Each poem will be different.. So judges In my assumption pick one according to the poems that they want to highlight base on different reasons.

In the comments some mention... I want to highlight this poem because it reached out to me. In another because this poem despite having repetition worked, in another because of the creativity of this poem.. Etc.

I think less people want to commit because a lot of people are seeing either a trend with the contest, feel there is massive bias, or think it has turned into a joke.

^
LOL
that's why they should commit O.o and make a change!
Since they are many people, Britt, then they would make a whole team, which is perfect! They should pm the Mods and commit, it won't be a joke, any longer, then.

People won't commit to something they don't believe in, and something they don't see changing.

I've told these people to talk to the mods but they don't feel anything will change. Trust me, I express my opinions/concerns to mods often, I have no issue with discussing things with them. Other people do have issue, aren't comfortable, or feel it won't matter.

Then we could always let the website pick. I'm sorry but I, for one, will not accept the "either we do it our way or you'll find no one to do it" speech. The good thing about judges is that they should "judge" a poem. If they just choose according to their tastes, then it's really useless. Why should their tastes be of more value than any of the numerous members who nominated? in this case, just let the website pick.

Complaining doesn't help, I agree, but I didn't just complain. I said there was something wrong, I offered solutions that aren't really hard to implement. I've done this, along with others, countless times on here (ever since comments were just a suggestion). Problem here is people taking things too personally, defending themselves, friends and thei ways; instead of thinking how to improve on what we already have.

I don't get it ? if they will be the ones judging, then how come they won't believe in it O.o. Anyway. people find it easier to complain, than to change. I guess.

Norhan just said things complained about are improving, and I agree that many things did change over here. So, it's unfair, that these many people prefer to stand aside, when they think they have the ideas to change.

Complaining doesn't help, I agree, but I didn't just complain. I said there was something wrong, I offered solutions that aren't really hard to implement
^
Ya, I was talking about the members who talked with Britt about this. Since they are a big number, they would make a whole team, no ?!

And believe it or not, me and Max did not pm ever, before. I was just against the idea of someone being targeted this way, without being offered suggestions instead! And also, against evaluating someone else's work the way his poem was being evaluated by equal poets, in my opinion. That's all.

As for the solutions you implemented, too easy to follow, but I don't get it why those (not you! since you did judge) those who are complaining, do not want to take a part of this, and make a real change.

Who are those people, Britt?
And why do they talk to you instead of voicing their opinions out loud?

This isn't a Hunger Games district eventually. Come on.

"Problem here is people taking things too personally, defending themselves, friends and thei ways"

Nor hit the nail smack dab on the head here.

LP I'm not going to call these people out as they spoke with me in confidence. If they want to discuss it they can come out and do so. Why they talk to me, I don't really know, maybe they feel comfortable with me. But most of these people would be able to say that I tell them to talk to mods about it. Maybe they're just venting to me and don't really care or want things to change. I can only go off of my conversations.

The main boards aren't really the easiest place to voice your opinion, you get jumped on pretty quickly for it.

One of the 2 judges who voted for Max, sent me this, as a reply:

Firstly, as Nana said I did take a different meaning from Max's title "Mirror's mistake." Mirrors can symbolize so many things in any form of writing, each unique to the reader and I will not immediately jump to a conclusion from a poet's title before even reading the poem itself.
True, it isn't the most extravagant poem in terms of vocabulary but I do believe I said this was good but with work had the potential to be great. And when I chose this, I did not spot any errors. If I had done so, I would have pointed them out as part of my review. As it was said, no i didn't choose this poem as my top choice but I do think my comment on it explains my choice and reasoning. I do not believe a poem should not be deemed worthy or unworthy enough based on grammar alone, and nothing else.

"but judges should know better and even if they didn't there should be a set of rules that judges judge according to, like language, punctuation, images, quality, creativity.. Etc. Certainly not their own tastes."

Not only this week but the last two weeks I have not picked a poem simply based on my own personal "taste." In fact, truth be told, most of the nominations so far are not of my own taste. I offered to judge knowing that if I was accepted I would judge without being biased when doing so. In fact, of all the poems I have chosen so far, I do believe only one of them was written by an author whose work I had read before. So no, it's not just based on my taste alone. If it was I would simply stick to the nominated poems of authors I already know that I enjoy. I have chosen them for a number of contributing factors and those include several areas mentioned above but also the depth within a poem and how it leaves me as the reader feeling upon finishing. If it only touches me, I will not consider it. If it touches me and meets what I consider to be appropriate in terms of language, images, originality, flow etc, I will consider it. Yes, some poems may not meet all of those guidelines but if they reach close to it, then yes, I am going to consider it.

:)

I've actually just seen Britt's and Everlasting's post now. I might be seeing things, but did you edit your last post to me?

Anyway, we could always open a new thread, brain storm on the things each thinks judges should consider when judging a poem then cut down the list into a number, say 5 or 6, important points and Give them a score.. Now all judges have to do is fill out the numbers and adding them before deciding and of course providing them with their comment. I think it'll help authors too to know their weak points. At least, I hope it will.

Back to blowing air....
Please don't say that there are people venting to you. How would we know? Maybe it's not true? I'm not saying they shouldn't vent, I'm saying that we should be realistic in solving this. What's the point of saying there are people PMing you... etc... Nothing.

If someone really wants a change, then they should come here.

And... I'm not defending Max here. I'm speaking the truth. I eat no candy from defending Max. He is a Kite Runner, yes, but that's not the point. I rarely PM him. We rarely talk privately.

I have seen in the previous front page winners the words 'Bastard' and this kind of shizzles. I do not come here to the boards to blah blah about it.... No one did then. Maybe because all people know the poet and are friends with him/her? If someone wants to comment on somebody's work, it shouldn't be done here. It would be useless. And all of those who came here and spoke about that poem were saying 'mistakes, errors, mistakes, errors'.... and there weren't any.

I've actually just seen Britt's and Everlasting's post now. I might be seeing things, but did you edit your last post to me?

^
me ? if yes, not at all lol! did not add, nor take off ? any word O.o

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Anyway, we could always open a new thread, brain storm on the things each thinks judges should consider when judging a poem then cut down the list into a number, say 5 or 6, important points and Give them a score.. Now all judges have to do is fill out the numbers and adding them before deciding and of course providing them with their comment. I think it'll help authors too to know their weak points. At least, I hope it will.

^
I find this, in fact, perfect.

edit:

although more work for judges..anyway

I'm not going to be bullied into telling you who talked to me. Like I said, they can come out and discuss themselves if they'd like. I can't make them, I've been trying forever. You can believe me or not, but I really have no reason to lie. It's not like I'm giving this off the wall fix-all for everything and then saying "but 3585 people agree with me!". I have nothing to gain nor lose from this. I'm giving examples because people always ask why others don't come out and say things, or why when one person does it seems like a huge outflow of problems.

I didn't intend to bully you. I can't believe you came with this word, even! :P

And I definitely don't need to know who those people are. They won't add anything to this 'acclaimed' problem if they continue hiding and chatting behind closed doors.

I agree.. honestly it bugs me, because there's nothing I can do about it, so I don't get the point.

I have to admit that most people I know of aren't happy about the contest, either. They won't voice their opinions because they don't like getting into these kinds of debates and like Britt I need not and would not lie. However the point here is where do we go from here? Attacks aren't really that helpful.

I think it's less work for judges actually, or at least easier work. It'll be something like:
Language 8/10
Creativity 3/5

and such, we just need to figure out the points and their scores.