Weekly Contest Suggestions

We have smeared the 'Congrats Thread', so let's talk here instead. Come on. Show us how you like things to be BETTER.

You don't need to hide.

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I'll start....

We'll divide judges into 2 groups.

Group A - will score all the nominated poems according to grammar and punctuation ONLY.

Group B - will score all the nominated poems according to language, creativity/originality, and imagery ONLY (which means disregarding Grammar and Errors and Punctuation...)

On Sunday, for example, voting should stop. And in some way, the scores of both groups will be added; the highest will WIN.

Regarding comments on poems, this could be done after announcing the winners.

Actually I had another thing in mind. I think it'll be better if we decide what a poem should be judged according to, first. After we have that judges will be asked to score the poems accordingly (no groups) and comment. However, they are free to comment on whatever poems they like. Like say, I as a judge like Britt's poem but another poem scores more according to my numbers.. I pick the one that scored more as a win, however I can comment on Britt's instead and just send the scores only for the other poem. That should please both sides, I think I can't ask the judges to comment on a poem they don't like even if it's much better written than the one they prefer, after all.

P.s. I'll go quiet for a while because this phone typing thing is torturous really. I'll be back.

Your idea is great, too. But it means MORE WORK, and you know about commitment problems every week.

My idea is good, too. There are standards. But two groups are supposed to score the two categories: Content (group A) - Grammar (Group B) --> This leads to less fuss concerning prejudice problems.

For example, Group B are not supposed to FEEL the poem, but rather stay unbiased and just check the errors like checking a newspaper, disregarding any emotions.

It's not that much work, the poem should be read as a whole, language is part of emotion and grammar is part of language, plus the numbers wouldn't be accurate. I can't see having a "feeling" only group that aren't allowed to take into consideration the flow or grammar.

So let me see...
Language (words usage and grammar)
Creativity (images, words again?)
Structure (style, flow)

What else?

Why not let the mods skim over all nominated poems before judges give votes and if there's any problem with any piece, they let the writer know? If the writer refuses to correct their flaws, the mod informs the judges that THAT piece shouldn't get votes.

But wait, mods, don't hate me... It's easy, every week a mod is responsible for that process, we have 5 mods (?) so you just have to do that once a month.

To be honest, even though I go cross-eyed when I read a poem with flawed punctuation, randomly capitalised letters or messed up grammar, and even though the front page is something that represents this site, and I would hate to see such a poem going up there, I have a hunch that we're going to discuss this thing over and over again till our fingers can't take it anymore, then realise nobody is willing to commit.

"Why not let the mods skim over all nominated poems before judges give votes and if there's any problem with any piece, they let the writer know? If the writer refuses to correct their flaws, the mod informs the judges that THAT piece shouldn't get votes."

I think they should be doing this already - cuss words weren't supposed to be on the front pages, nor are explicit poems or self harm. At least last was discussed if I remember correctly.. and then they should let the judges know those poems can't be voted on. Or poems such as a collab poem where one of the writers nominates the poem (can't nominate your own poems) etc.

I don't think that mods should pick poems on a no-vote list based on spelling/grammar etc. That's two sets of judges, and we should be able to trust one set to pick.

It does happen already.
Poems that violate the standards cause notice to the judges.
Frankly, we don't screen for poor grammar or typos, as (1) who are we to say what is deliberate and (2) you have to trust the judges to pick up on that.

Great suggestions so far.

Britt, when we send out our information package for new judges the issue of self-harm in relation to the front page is addressed:

"4. Self-harm poems:
-Though Janis did not wish to see poems of this type on the front page, we have determined that they ought to be allowed. However, they should really only be voted on in cases where the poems showcase true literary merit, not glorification of self-harm."

"Why not let the mods skim over all nominated poems before judges give votes and if there's any problem with any piece, they let the writer know? If the writer refuses to correct their flaws, the mod informs the judges that THAT piece shouldn't get votes."

^In my opinion this defeats the purpose of what judges should be doing. As a judge it's their responsibility to pick the best 3 poems each week to represent the front page, this means looking for flaws and making a decision based on quality.

If we decide on a bit of a set guideline as Nor suggested I'd be all for it. The very few creative writing electives I've taken at university have followed something similar. If I recall correctly technique was always a part of the guideline.

I read in the previous thread that some people felt a lot of members aren't volunteering because they dislike the way the contest is ran. This is the time and place for everyone to voice their honest opinions, we have the same conversation over and over again and the only way things can change is if members actually say what it is they dislike so much and provides alternatives. Please keep the suggestions coming.

Firstly I don't think the mods should have to go over each poem for eligibility, the judges should be able to determine that.

1. I don't think swear words should be allowed on the front page: if there are swear words in a poem they should be in the explicit section under profanity and those poems can't be nominated for a reason. Also, poems with grammar mistakes shouldn't be on the front page, that should be a given, judges should be knowledgeable enough to see a poem with grammar, spelling mistakes.

2. I also think a sub judge or mod should step in to break tie-breakers, not leave it to a computer. We had a vote about this a while ago and most people agreed this, but it seems to have gone back to computer now.

3. (a) I also think something should be done about the number of judges: Wasn't is supposed to be cut to three, then its five again, last two weeks there were only four judging? I understand that judges mightn't be able to judge every week but sub-judges or mods should be arranged, it was never a problem when I was a judge. If there are to be five judges each week, maybe there should be a cut-off time for judges to nominate, say Sunday afternoon, and the sub/mod should be available on Sunday evening or night if required, if possible.

3. (b) If we were wanting 3 judges each week, I suggested a rotation system which I'll suggest again. Say there are 5 judges: A, B, C, D, and E. The judging term is 15 weeks. A rota lasts 5 weeks, happening three times in the full term.

Week 1 - A, B, C judge
Week 2 - A, B, D judge
Week 3 - A, D, E judge
Week 4 - B, C, E judge
Week 5 - C, D, E judge

The other 2 judges that aren't judging that week (or a mod) could be sub judges or could break ties.

4. Also, I think on the nominations page, it should be arranged by chronological order and not random each time you click onto it: it makes it hard to find poems, when I was judge it was easy to just go down through the list and wouldn't miss poems that way. I don't really see the advantage of having it random order each time.

I like Nor's idea in theory, but it might be difficult in my opinion to rate all poems according to a fixed rubric, out of 5 for creativity, flow, imagery, etc. Judges should certainly be able to spot a good poem and not rely solely on tastes. These things should be judged almost subconsciously. If I come across a poem that you give 5/5 for creativity for example, then come across a more creative poem, what should I do? Would judges really do this rating system for each poem, I know I probably wouldn't want to.
Weird analogy alert - If somebody doesn't like the Mona Lisa they should be able to realise that its a great piece of art: if somebody likes a painting their friend painted in art class they should also realise it isn't a masterpiece. That was an exaggeration but just to get the point across, its similar to judging the contest in a way. But it's hard to quantify the quality of art by giving it a score.

This video is of relevance here I think -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpeLSMKNFO4

I agree that judges should be able to recognise and identify features of good poetry, whether it's to their taste or not, but I don't think giving a poem scores out of 5 or 10 or whatever and adding up the points on different aspects is the way to go. (I think that is what is being suggested, not sure)

Edit: Just trying to catch up and re-read posts, don't think this was what was proposed as such, but I guess the point still stands.

I don't think 'bastard' and 'prick' really count as cuss words.
I could have used a lot worse in my winning poem,
I don't think there will ever be a resolution that will satisfy everybody.
Poetry is an art and 'freedom of expression'
Now i am determined to win again with the same words
Woo hoo

I think...before we duscuss solutions to the problem we must first address the problem itself. Do we thing favouritism is shown by the judges at present?...does friendship cloud judgement right now? I will say yes. My reasons?...At the moment I believe one or more judge is of arab decent....I also thing one or more is a member of the Kite Runners...looking at this weeks poems and the winners from the last three weeks...it would appear that there is one random member winning and the others are falling into one of the two groups I've mentioned.

Arab decent ? is it the 1st time an Arab wins? is that how it is ? If an Australian wins, an Australian decent is a judge ?!

Nice. the mods said it will be 3 months long so people stop saying it's favoritism and more people get to judge, but it's useless.

No Nana....it's not the first time a person of arab decent has won...my point was...count how many have won recently and...I also mentioned the Kite Runners in my comment...just take a look?

Okay I did take a look, and truth be told, I do see what you are talking about. But I want to ask you, isn't there half a chance that these poems were picked for their content ?

For example, this week, and remind me to tell you who were they when the judges are revealed, both weren't Arabs, (talking about the judges who voted for Max) so their 1st language is English!

But although I did notice what made you raise these concerns, I still find it weird, to say count how many have won recently, Arab wise...every month there have been several Arabs wining, I don't like addressing people by their nationality. Really sounds weird.

Nana...I wasn't talking about the two judges who voted on Max's poem as being of arab decent....I meant out of the five who participate...let that be known. Maybe the were Kite Runner members..maybe a bit of both. Well...I'm Australian...I don't have a problem with being called one....a lot of countries are grouped into the western category...I don't have a problem with that either because....basically I'm both?

Bahaha, really Hellon?

Not because I am an Arab, but your theory is ridiculous and somehow, somewhat offensive. I don't remember any Arab winning during this term except for Max (correct me if I'm wrong), so what you have just said is totally unacceptable.

I was a Kite-Runner before and I know how things go there, they always do contests, discussions about poetry...etc. They support each other, that's true, but I very highly doubt that if one of them becomes a judge, they become biased.

Let's be clear here, a long while ago, specific members used to take over the front page and most of them were in the same club. Could we say 'hey you guys are conspiring and voting for each other'? Nope, I remember we couldn't. So let's not throw accusations at each other and try to solve this contest thingy as calmly as possible.

'As a judge it's their responsibility to pick the best 3 poems each week to represent the front page, this means looking for flaws and making a decision based on quality.'

But if those judges aren't capable of doing what you just have stated, mods should take action, no?

And I like Colms idea. 100% with him.

You are wrong, Noura..not just Max. But this is the problem:

if only western members won, the things are fine and nothing is going in a biased manner. Lol If several Arabs won, then there is an Arab judge.

very acceptable!?

Mmmm....let me think and I hate to drag poor Rabia into this because he's not been part of it but...let's just look at his record....has been on and off this site a few times....has never had a win...had very little votes on his account this time around and then....wham....he joins the Kite Runners and....well what happens...his votes tripple in less than a month..he has two wins....err....he also falls into both categories????

LOL before Rabea deleted his 1st account, I remember him winning twice ? Let him correct me if less or more, in the same month.

Why do you have a problem with Arabs winning ? you know what you are saying ?

There is an Arab judge, it shows by Arabs going to the front page.

It did not happen before, it means those who weren't Arabs, were biased toward the non-arabs members ? Pfftt don't get everyone involved in this nationality favoritism, please. We are not in need of such ridiculous play.

Picky, picky, picky, picky, picky.

Edited: Members of one club have every right to support each other with commenting, voting blah blah. We are talking about the weekly now, don't mix things up.

See you guys twist everything to suit yourselves and...quite frankly I'm sick of it...I said members of arab decent...I also said the Kite Runners but....you always try to jump on things and twist them into some racist thing that just isn't there...I placed facts up here...recently....members of arab decent are winning...members of the Kite Runners are winning....random members seem to fill the sandwich right now....you said...after checking this out...you could see where I was coming from...now...you're right on the defence...over it all. I stand by what I've said here...I doubt if I'll change my mind but..my mind is always open to valid debate.

Hellon, who knows if you are right or wrong, there's no proof either way, somebody could always call favouritism in any judging term, what will that solve, when its not an anonymous contest there is always going to be the suspicion of favouritism, whether is it there or not. If the mods see it happening (they monitor the contest, who votes for who etc) and consistantly poor poems are being selected by one judge, they can do something about it. Don't let this thread turn into another locked one with 100 posts of bickering and hearsay, everybody should try and keep on point and make/discuss suggestions instead of arguing, filling up the thread and turning people off posting in it.

Its not as if there is a pool of unbiased, knowledgeable, dedicated, and clubless potential judges on here, its highly likely that a one or more club will have a judge at any one time.

Colm...I totally agree and...I'm not taking this arguement any further as I've indicated but....why did you direct this comment at me? My first post...I feel was valid.....address the problem before we discuss a solution so....yeah?....why me?

Oh and Darren, I know this is in response to your poem which had the swear words in it, but it's not your fault, you can write what you want, I'm saying that in future judges should not vote for poems with swear words in them, in my opinion.

Edit: Hellon I'm not going to reply because it will be counter-productive and only fill up the thread more, I'll pm you in a minute

Hmmm Rabea has won even before joining the kite runners.

But I think I'm starting to understand the issue here...

so basically the whole issue is "Quality"
Seeing 'lovely' words ( not sure how to call them) in poems... So content, imagery, doesn't play a big role in here?

I do agree on one thing, poems with bad words shouldn be on the front page because kids read them, the same goes with explicit content. Those type of poems need to be in explicit category. ( it doesn't mean that the kids can't read them lol but at least they might have to look for them and they will not be infront of their eyes).

Your whole post was racial and offensive, Hellon. I don't care about winning at all, hence, I am not defending myself. I am just against turning this thread into a nationalities one. You always have to involve politics/religion/nationalities in everything?

Hellon.
You are proving to me everyday that you are weird.

Do not involve Kite Runners in there, if you please.
I don't know if there are judges from us in this contest. And I don't care.

We have TALENT in the club, and no one can deny that.

Xanthe
Jenni
Mark
Meme
Luce
Liz
Timothy, etc...

They are some of the best writers in this site. So you say that those writers are winning because there are judges from our club? Please be realistic.

I have ignored your comment about Arabs decent, for obviously, some Arabs here are far way better than those whose mother tongue is English. lol

But... about Kite Runners. Seriously, Hellon?

LOL, twisting it around, :P, I said nothing since this thread started everyone stated valid solutions and very helpful ideas.

Until you brought up the nationality part and favoritism, as the main problem. anyway, I doubt you read as you listen, so I will leave it here.
Say all you wish, I am enjoyiing the suggestions left by other members.

Oh Oh.. And I don't know if this counts, but look at what I have nominated this week.

2 for Noura.
And I still have one. And I didn't give that to a Kite Runner. I don not think we only comment on each other's work. You can see the praised comments of Kite Runners. There are lots of comments on non-kite runners.

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Damn I wish I wrote something new hehe :P

This is your time Mrs. Sunshine. Write something new.

Edit: sorry, For getting out of topic.

Okay, my question why did this debate started????

My opinion... Because people are focused on Quality.

My question... Can someone define quality for me????

Colm, I'll try and respond to you the best I can.

1. You're right, we don't allow explicit poems on the front page for a reason but it seems a few poems are being wrongly categorized. For me I have no issue with explicit poems in general but when they're placed on a front page that is accessible by everyone, even those who aren't members of the site it can become quite problematic. I'm sure we have a lot of youngsters accessing the site on a daily basis.

2 & 3. This issue we had with this was a lot of judges were simply not voting. We weren't getting notice and therefore we had very little time for mods/subs to step in. I remember one time Jane and I were on at the same time and were scrambling to find a sub, it was 3am over in the states and most of members were sleeping. We decided that we wouldn't get a sub unless judges dropped below 3. We've thrown around the idea of having a permanent sub that would have the power to vote each week if needed, obviously this member would need to be dedicated.

"If there are to be five judges each week, maybe there should be a cut-off time for judges to nominate,"

^I like what you're suggesting here about a cut off time, however my only concern is let's say a judge doesn't vote by Sunday afternoon, our sub/mod steps in and votes. We then think everything is fine and then the judge we assumed wasn't voting comes on that night and votes (potentially changing the winners on the front page). What I'm trying to say is we've asked judges to send votes to Nana by a certain time already and sometimes they do it last minute, some actions we can't control.

3. I believe I've said I like your idea in the past, if not... well I do. The only problem I see is confusion amongst judges but writing down the weeks you're judging can't be all that difficult. I am one of the people who suggested 3 judges in the first place and I'd still like to see it implemented.

Darren, you're right. We don't often have resolutions on here that satisfy everyone. Please don't feel like you're being targeted. In regards if the words 'bastard' and 'prick' are cuss words, I think it's the negative connotations that come with them that cause them to be profane. I have a friend who will whip out the dictionary and define bastard as "born of parents not married to each other; illegitimate" but I often have to remind him oxford dictionary define it as a derogatory term (he conveniently leaves that out). At the end of the day my mother would have and probably would still attempt to wash my mouth out with soap if I used any of the above.

Hi Noura, nice to see you back on the site. By mods taking action what exactly are you suggesting? Sorry if I'm being an airhead but it's almost 11pm and I am writing an essay on simulation, it has taken a lot of my mind power.

Everlasting: "so basically the whole issue is "Quality" Seeing 'lovely' words ( not sure how to call them) in poems... So content, imagery, doesn't play a big role in here?"

I think content, imagery and so on are all part of quality poems.

Please keep this thread respectful.

Woah, that was longer than I expected. Sorry!

Yes Sunshine flower, why haven't you written anything new? It's been a while since you've shared your wisdom with me.

Edit:

Everlasting, I believe this debated started because of the following thread:

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=137902

As for quality, quality in my opinion has all the elements that make up a good poem. Correct punctuation, spelling, good metaphors, imagery, technique and so on.

Thanks for the post, Mel :)

And :/ I know! Tried to write, but some things keep distracting me! Hopefully I will be able to pick up my thoughts and emotions soon lol :) ; miss you.

Poetry must be crying because we are always in debate, accusing each other of this and that when Poetry is not for that purpose. Can't you all see that whenever somebody suggests something, we end up accusing each other and destroying any possible ties we could have?

"The aim of poetry and the poet is finally to be of service, to ply the effort of the individual into the larger work of the community as a whole."

Seamus Heaney

Here is the evidence that every judging term, KRs are winning. And everybody knows that in each term, judges are changing ;)

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- October:
Meme
Max

- September:
Hannah
Liz
Rab
Xanthe

-August:
Paul
Jenni
Xanthe
Rab

- July:
Mark
Jenni
Xanthe
Abed
Mark
Liz

-June:
Jenni
Abed
Luce
Timothy

- MAY:
Abed
...
...

Thanks for your answer Mel. I understand that mods can't control (for use of a better word) the judges time in that things can pop up that they mightn't be able to vote by a deadline. But if everyone was clear on the rules, they would know that if they hadn't voted by x time then it wasn't their responsibility, not sure if mods could take away their voting rights for that week if that would help? I admit that is a tough one.

I was thinking the only problem with the 3 judges rotation is confusion. It could be done in a way quite easy to follow: the mods could assign a letter to each judge, pm them and post a timetable for the term on a thread here so that the judges could favourite it and with one or two clicks check what weeks they are on if not sure.

Thank you Mel that answers my questions.