Very important

Your chitty cat looks like it's poor neck is broken...can you give it a little shove???

No it's asking you "excuse me what are you donig"

Hey Khalid,

first off, when I initially replied to you, no one else had replied and your post was sitting there all lonely. I appreciated the sentiment of your post, if not quite the delivery so I thought I'd reply. Of course after I did, lots of other people did but at the time.

:)

In reponse to what I said in the other thread about "Islam being christianity plus some very bad ideas". That is my feeling and if you disagree, you should have responded to me either via PM or in the actual thread. Waiting til now to make your thoughts known about that seems a bit "odd".

You have to admit, religion, and in particular Islam has enjoyed a rather amazing bubble of protection for a very long time from the kind of open and fearless criticism every other topic in our world has to deal with. A person's politics, sexuality, social status, interests and hobbies, where they live, where they went to school etc are all up for total and complete debate and that is normal, in fact it is healthy.

But the same doesn't apply to religion, or at least it didn't until recently (relatively speaking). I am glad that is changing and we as a global community of people can start to really look at the histories and real world effects of each religion with open eyes and ask "is this a good thing?".

I look at Islam and Christianity and my answer is "no, it really isn't". There are faith systems I approve of, but not those two.

"Lol I'm cracking up reading this because were all confused as to who is responding to what post."

Britt's comment here excellently describes how difficult it is to understand tone and intent on online forums. We have an illusion of transparency - that because we are feeling certain emotions when writing posts, other people will be able to interpret our emotions by reading our posts... the problem is, you are the one who experienced the emotions, not the reader.

As for freedom of speech, I understand the importance of it, but I also understand it's important not to hide behind those 3 words. Yes, you have freedom of speech, but that in no way gives you the right to be a dick. Keep that in mind when you write down opinions and post them on the internet, especially when you feel strongly.

Edit: it looks like I'm responding to Kevin, but we posted at the same time. I'm not targeting anyone specifically.

Kevin, first you can't answer the questions of Twiggy in the other thread since they're related to Islam because only muslims know the answers. Second you jumped in that thread belittling both Islam and Christianity by saying "Islam being christianity plus some very bad ideas" and this is directly pointed to both religions as an insult. Third, later on you added an expression "a bit like being a Mormon, or a presidential candidate". Well it's better for you not to shoot religions other than yours with such sensitive words, even if it's your own opinion, at least as a matter of respect to other members' feelings. There's one saying "if your house is built of glass don't shoot others' houses with stones". I think no body in that thread have excited you to reply in this way.

^ loved your pic, Khalid!

I like what is happening now! This thread is about Buddhism (universal peace), isn't it?

Well, Khalid, study the chart below, and see which religion Kevin belongs to... Atheism, the third largest in the World, with 1.1 billion followers just next to your religion with 1.3 billion. ha-Ha. Now, understand why Atheist's don't believe in anyone's God. They have a different belief altogether. chuckle!

http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm

And guess what, my religion (Google) is not even listed here...no wonder it got blasted by Wildflower (no offense,you are my friend). ha-HA. I bet if I do a survey, I will have the largest number of followers. chuckle, chuckle!

To finish a bit later....here

What a terrible mess! Even though, if his religion is atheist he'd not know what's about my religion but I guess he got the message.

There are university scholars who have a degree in Religious Studies and are Atheists... So your statement isn't quite true. It seems Kevin was the main target of this thread? Either way, your responses haven't been neutral.

Aha!!!!

I get it

^^^ means 3 posts above

sometimes I amaze myself with my own stupidity.

woo hoo

Hahahahaha love it

Khalid,

I am not insulting you personally any more than if I said I hated rock music and you were a huge fan of rock. I am not speaking about you, I'm speaking about the religion. If you want to take offence on behalf of a book written hundreds of years ago based on a book written thousands of years ago, have at it but don't expect me to restrain my opinions.

I am blunt and rather harsh when I discuss religion, but as I've said I am not directly insulting you or any other Muslim or christian. You are not your religion and if I make a critical point about the Koran or Bible you shouldn't feel i'm attacking any single person.

The focus is on the topic, not the people.

I won't change how I deal with the topic, sorry but religion has had a free pass for too long and now the kid gloves are off (globally) when it comes to faith and it's long overdue. If you don't like it, avoid religious threads.

sorry.

ps, I have no formal religion, but I do have lots of faith but even if we discussed a topic that was very personal to me like alcholism in families or the rights of people with learning difficulties (I work with adults who have impairments) you'd never hear me say to anyone they don't have the right to speak or they shouldn't express themselves so directly.

What??!?!? Are you really comparing religion to music? Thats stupid those are 2 complete different things. Religion is something you carry, to hold and cherish to live with,, music is not tbat.

Yes you are attacking do you think Qura'an and bible are like music? They're not. What you're saying makes no sense.

Did we attack your beliefs? No, but if we did Im sure you're not gonna like it.

^ Ms. Wildflower: Take it easy. Kevin has a sense of humor that only Hellon can appreciate, so no need to be offended. Atheists do make fun of God-believers and religion minded folks, so no need to take his words seriously and start another serious debate. A little counter humor will do!
---------------------------------------------
Hey Kevin: How about joining Hare-Rama, hare krisna faith (hippy hinduism) seriously? They may need a rock artist or singer to propagate their faith as they go around chanting loudly in our neighboring streets?

Silliest religion on that table is Chopra faith...it is not a religion, he is just an inspirational speaker (makes big bucks) from speaking/writing on ancient Vedic hinduism, in a way that appeals to hollywood types. That could be another choice. Maybe he can use a singer/TV artist and introduce you to Holllywood celebrities that he know (Michael Jackson was one)...easy employment, what do you say?

But, if none of these appeal, you could join the ranks of Buddhism or Jainism...I don't think you would find any criticisms there...there aren't any to my knowledge, both Buddha (born as Prince Siddharth) and Mahavir (24th Tirthanker of Jainism) were enlightened by meditation and deep thinking, not by preaching war or religion. In fact they have so much in common, you may successfully learn the art of quiet meditation, and humility better than any other faith. What do you say, do you wish to be enlightened? Looks like Larry did, with a single visit to a Buddha temple/shrine.

Here is a story: Each time I have visited a Buddhist monastery (and I am not a Buddhist), something in my inside suddenly gives me the most wonderful calm/purifying feelings that I can best describe as "enlightment" in the presence of God, though Buddha is not considered God. I have visited temples, churches, mosques and I cannot recall the same feeling anywhere else, except once in a very ancient church in Quebec city I believe, cannot recall its name.

So many choices for initiation in this cult of human God-worshippers, if you like...may be "enlightening", what do you think?

If you get rattled by Kevin's assertions on his beliefs, bear in mind that each holder of faith is entitled to his or her own opinion and will not be silenced or converted because you are offended by their stance. Kevin is a holder in the belief of atheism, just as you may believe there is a God and you call him Allah or as others adhere to a Fundamentalist Christian literal belief in the Bible or as yet another may adhere to the strict Logical Positivism of Science.

Personally, being a highly spiritual agnostic, I see all faiths in equal dignity and worth. I happen to have been raised Catholic, earnestly studied Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, as well as various other Christian sects. The spiritual life of man is the most important aspect of life to me so I have pursued it in many venues for nearly 50 years. I'm still searching.

I believe if a person follows a path that accepts the innate value of the human being and puts that core principle into practice, they have my full support. I myself have been disappointed by every major formal religion I have encountered. On the other hand, I have not been disappointed in many people who follow these religions.

Presumption: taking isolated clues out of context and formulating erroneous conclusions, then acting on these conclusions without feedback. It gets us nowhere and creates animosity.

Don't presume that a passage or posting attacks you. Most likely it has nothing to do with you.

Putting it in a more flippant way:
"GUYS RULE NUMBER ONE. If something that I say can be taken two different ways, and one way upsets you, I meant it the other way."

"Yes you are attacking do you think Qura'an and bible are like music? They're not. What you're saying makes no sense."

No, I don't believe that was his intent.

Since we're on the topic, though...The Qur'an, The Bible, and other religious texts are certainly good poetry. And what's poetry? Well it's about the closest thing you can get to music in written or spoken form.

Wild flower, take it easy buddy. Religion is religion, music is music, you are you and I am? well I am me. Each to their own. Everyone is free to compare and interpret anything according to how they see things so long as they don't step into a war zone. That's where freedom ends.

If you think about it music is something written that may "soothe" the mind/soul.. isn't it? isn't it religion something like that?

Also think about this...

What is it that many say.. oh yeah.. Everyone is the same. What do you think about this?
wouldn't it be crazy if I say that we are not the same even though I do think that we are the same because we all have a heart that beats and pumps blood to each part of our body, or because we all have lungs that help us take oxygen and thus continue breathing, or because we all have emotions that may or may not take control over us. So it's the same with religion all religions are the same because they share the same goal but they are not the same because each of those religions hold their own believes.

So which religion is the correct one? that has been debated over a wow thousands and thousands of years. No body knows, we decide what we choose to believe in. If someone decides to not believe in God, let them do that You'll believe in God for them. If someone who doesn't believe in the same as you, goes and asks questions regarding your beliefs, answer them. If you don't know the answers look for them. If someone mocks your religion and you get offended instead of holding that feeling convert it into a stubborn feeling to look for the answers and prove that someone that they have interpret your religion wrong. While you do that you will come up with your own interpretations either way you will strengthen your faith or your faith will crumbled down. Now, take into account that it might take a long time to be able to answer those questions. And asking questions and more questions, usually leads us closer to the answers.

So try to not get offended and instead look at it from a positive perspective. All those questions or doubts or points of views that the opposing party has are there to either enhance your belief or to make it fall. You decide how it will turn out. Just try to always aim to remain calm and to pay attention to what is written.

I have noticed that this discussion taken in Pnq are safe and under control. one decides whether to participate or not. No body is forcing anyone. I don't participate because I have not read the Qua'ran and I'm not inform well about others religions. Other than what I have read over here and what other friends have told me. To put it easier I'm not inform about my own religion that well. I know a little bit but it's enough for me to believe in it. I'm Catholic by the way. So i prefer to stay quiet and I'll just read. It doesn't mean that because someone has a negative view of one religion that I will believe it like them. I have my own mind and I will think according to what makes sense to me, the same goes if someone speaks good about a religion, I will come up with my own view. If someone is from one religion, I wont' judge that someone base on that, I will come out with my own opinion about that SOMEONE base on their actions not about the religion.

I think that music could be a religion, Many follow it. Science could be a religion.. many follows it. They may soothes the mind/soul..Also one day you could be a religion for someone if not you might already be, someone will or has faith in you...and I am like you too and like everyone else. It doesn't mean that I think that I'm or that you are God, God knows that I don't mean this. Rather its an example to say that now a days the word Religion is about having faith. It's about what one believes in, what one chooses to follow.

So we are all the same, for all I know everything could be a religion and that may be a religion could fall down in our eyes and we might find another religion... and then this other religion doesn't makes sense to us... So there is something that will always make each different though everything always arrives to one main point. Towards the end, It usually narrows down into one point, just like some rivers. The water flows freely until they arrive to the ocean. Others are not free to run and they stay in the same place. So its up to one to decide if one wants to be that type of river that gets to the ocean to find the reality as salty yet immerse in its beauty OR if one wants to be that river that stays stuck in one place waiting for the rain to fill it or until it dries up? In this case, its your choice. The river doesn't have that choice at least I don't think so.

We are all the same yet we are not. That's the world a full contradiction, yet without the contradictions we will be incomplete? or rather dull? we need to solve that puzzle thus that puzzle is what make us keep going. That puzzles is what makes us keep asking those questions and those questions are like the rain that give us the answers and those answers are what fills the rivers to get to the ocean. Any who, this may or may not make sense, but what I wanted to say is

continue asking questions and sharing opinions in a civilize way. Please, wild flower and khalid don't get offended, remember everyone has their own opinions.

If you are someone who believes or not in religion, either way, just stick to civil laws follow them and behave in good faith.

Now, I'm sleepy. See ya later.

I understand why Wildflower would be upset with the comparison. Religion is a belief system and is more profound than music, which is an enjoyment or a hobby (or job or something that moves you, etc). Music is not a belief system. There's a big difference.
Nevertheless, I understand Kevin's intentions, and they are to make a valid point even if the example used is questionable.

My personal beliefs are very much in line with Larry's, but this thread isn't about our beliefs now is it? It's about expressing different views in a respectful manner, and there's no reason any intelligent person can't do just that.

I'm not sure anyone is upset with your Atheism or with your personal belief system and dissociation with organized religions, Kevin. I think some people are upset with the over-simplified way you express these opinions...
Yeah, you feel that so-and-so's religion is stupid (or something along those lines), and you're absolutely entitled to feel that way, but is it OK to say things like that? Maybe not.
It's good practice to be able to explain why you feel the way you feel rather than throwing out conclusive opinions without backing.

Jane...the Baptist church uses music all the time and....I have to admit they all look like they are having a brilliant time in their worship....so they can both be combined I believe?

I personaly beleive that all this can be sumed up very clearly by saying, stop acting dumb and show respect, you dont have to agree, just be respectful about your disagreements. If you dont want to join in a debate of any topic becouse they bore you or you find that your not knowledgable on the topic, dont join, and if you care to become mroe knowledgeble, then by all means ask questions or research it. Just dont jump in and start insulting people for thier opinions.

A respectful word that shows your opinion is more powerful then a disrespectful word that shows your ignorance.

I apologize for my last post, I allowed my emotions take over, however I have very different opinions than kevin on this subject.

I still want to say, that respect should always be given within discussions, so that all of us, can feel free to post our thoughts.

Thank you

FFs ( For F**k Sake!) ...Kevin..which brand of aftershave are you wearing right now man? I can never get away with anything like this...people covering your arse?...people agreeing?...people apologising?....fall to my knees...

Kevin = Prophit???

Merry Adha everyone :D

Samuel high five man
this is exactly what should be said in this thread lol

and Merry Adha Abed and everybody =)

People need to learn to detach themselves from their political party, their country, their religion and anything else they hold dear when it comes to discussions and debates. If you cannot do this, then you perhaps need to cosider not taking part in adult debates.

That much should be obvious. Did you ever watch a serious televised debate where one speaker makes a strong point and the other responds "oh you shouldn't have said that you just hurt my feelings".

No, they'd get laughed out of the room and never invited back. I never attack people personally, but I do attack the topic if I feel the need and that won't ever change. It isn't about you or me, its about the topic. Understand that and perhaps you'll see things differently.

I could of course be very polite about everything, but I just don't think the topic deserves it. Religion has had a free pass with too much respect given to it for a long time.

I'm with Everlasting on this one. Our beliefs are driven by our perception. Perception could cause you to follow any number of belief systems and could even cause you to create your own new system - this has been happening for millenia.

The truth of it all is that as she was saying above, we all come from the same heap of junk. We're all made from matter that has been recycled since the dawn of time. What's more is that no matter what we do, or who we are, we're all trying to meet the same end - a happy and fulfilled life. We all have different ways of meeting this end, but if we allow one another to continue on this path with nothing but grace and piece of mind (supposing that what makes us happy is void of violence or hatred), then nobody will have problems.

"Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them."
-The Dalai Lama XIV

To begin with, I'm so very damn sick of all religions of all kinds, especially mine.

If people in my country are killing under the name of Allah, then I don't want to believe in this Allah. If those Arabic kings who 'claim' to be all religious and all innocent and followers of Muhammad and his God, using it all to oppress, to kill, to spread famines, to destroy lives, then byebye Islam.
Islam, christianity, Buddhism, etc etc...they all are something deeper and more sublime than what we think. They're about love and forgiveness that we forgot a very long while ago, they're about giving hands to those in need, about taking all of our differences aside and trying to make this world a damn happier place. They're something most of us don't deserve, don't understand or don't want to understand.

In my religion and according to those who pretend to be 'religious men', clothes have restrictions and eating has restrictions and relationships have restrictions as does everything, you 'have to' go into the bathroom with your right foot because it's cleaner than the left and you 'have to' pray five times a day or you're going to an everlasting hell, you must read Al Quran at night before you sleep and and and... really? Is this what Islam really means? How ridiculous we've become. Religion is having faith, not being forced to have faith. It's about loving and not hating. I hate my religion, people made me hate it. They use it for their own good and that's just disgusting. They made Islam too material, not spiritual at all.
One should pray when they feel the need to connect with God, one should read the Bible or Al Quran and grasp it all and feel it all when they are weak and in need of something to uplift them. I can't read the Holy book like a parrot and say I'm a Muslim, who am I kidding?

I've come to the conclusion that religion is the cause of wars, the cause of murders, and even the cause of hunger all over the world. Enough. Let's just love each other and forget what our grandfathers billions of years ago decided us to be, a muslim or a catholic or anything, we're all humans and we share the same planet after all.

"I've come to the conclusion that religion is the cause of wars"

I am glad someone is finally come out to agree with me on this. :)

Just to be clear, Buddhism, Jainism & Sikhism are not the same as Islam, Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism. The first three are non-theistic (i.e do not believe that there is a central figure like a God who directs our every step in life with rewards and punishment, etc) as against the latter 4 being theistic (belivers in a central divine figure) religions/faiths, and are different than atheistic (Kevin's belief) which means essentially "no-religion, spirituality or faith." The non-theistic religions are not atheistic, but believe in self-development and recognition of spirituality by a person for their "inner development". to achieve spirituality, you need devotion to an object/person. So Buddhists use the "Buddha", Jains use the 24 Tirthankers (the enlighted folks) Mahavir being the last after which the religion was founded, and Sikhs use Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind and more (all real enlighted people, none were Gods, messengers or prophets)

Let me explain spirituality and is connection to oneself:

Spirituality is a word that encompasses righteousness, compassion and inner wisdom necessary to enable a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the values and meanings by which people live. Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation (self-evaluation and our role), are intended to develop an individual's inner life, for the sole purpose of guiding us to the correct path as to why we are here and what is our purpose in life.

More here in a little....

It is believed by many that the UN (United Nations) are soon to ban all religion. So maybe we can look forward to that... Funnily enough, I've spoken to people who work for the UN and they don't deny that they have been considering it for some time. Ha.

Kevin
If you thing I'm afraid to talk about this subject you are totally wrong. I can't be here for 24 h, that's it, and so are you. Most of us are having their own duties beside this discussion. Anyhow, again I'll tell you. You mentioned that Islam is Christianity plus very bad ideas. In this expression you're telling people wrong information and insulting our religion that we, the muslims, are created to defend it as a matter of worship. I can tell you a suggestion okay? Just ask every member over here do they agree with that? Do they agree that Islam = Christianity + very bad ideas?
Kevin I think you're far beyond grown up to say that, even if it is your opinion. Well if it is your opinion, you should not say it, as a matter of respect to muslims over here, because no body touched your religion as well, otherwise it will be understood as a direct attack to Islam, and that's why I opened this thread. The problem is that you pointed that phrase without any reason, understand.
When Twiggy asked those questions I don't believe they were directed to non-muslims, because whoever have the answers he will not know the answers better than muslims themselves, even if he has a master or a PhD in teaching religions, then what we the muslims are doing in our countries. Leave the terrorism and criticism between muslims aside but our religion's facts and realities are still unchanged for more than 14 centuries.
Finally Kevin, we are both members in the PNQ and hence should not be losing each other. You have your own faith kept untouched by whoever member whereas my religion is completely demoted, especially by you. Do you think this is fair? I'll let you answer if you still pay a respect to my religion.

^^^

"I have come to the conclusion that religion causes wars"

that is exactly why I wrote the poem 'religion causes wars'

well said

'religion causes wars'

Darren I wish if I can jump in though the screen and kiss you.
You're the most ideal perfect member who I love

It's a shallow thinking that religion causes war. You are causing war. Not religion. And by you, I mean every human.

I like to think from a shallow point of view, if I think too deep I tend to go batsh*t

Religion is the biggest cause of war throughout the ages, mainly civil wars.
I live in the UK and I am a bit of a nerd when it comes to the history of our royal family

Henry VIII burnt monastries to the ground and started a religion of his own,
His daughter Mary was catholic and killed many protestants, Elizabeth I was protestant and had catholic apposers killed.

just a few examples, why do islamic extremists hate the west? because of their faith.

read the bible and see how many uprisings are mentioned due to faith.

the list is endless, humans cannot and probably never will accept that people can have different faiths, they are too busy trying to force their way of thinking onto others.

Hitler anybody?

I may start my own religion, I will put an egg on my window sill and pray to its life giving powers every night.

I am now a eggstremists

Darren let me get in this useful speech. It is not the same with the true Islam. Me be you're surprised that I'm saying that. The extremists in islam are those people like Bin Laden and other similar people spread allover the world. Islam in our countries is not applied 100 per cent but rather the wetern laws control most of governing styles applied therin. There's no real religion, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which calls for terrorism or war but during the periods of these religions the religions' owners including the judges, kings princes deviated and modified some of the religious rules according to their desires. For example in Islam the rule says that anyone who steals should be punished by having his hand cut and any adultrer should either be killed, if originally married, or have whipping 100 times. These rules are not applied right now in the Islamic world except in Saudia Arabia and not all the times. I'd like to tell that the truly applied Islam doesn't call for war or terrorism but plenty of muslims do deviate from that. No religion given by God invites for war or terror or horror but rather for brotherhood and forgiveness and many other good morals.

"For example in Islam the rule says that anyone who steals should be punished by having his hand cut and any adultrer should either be killed, if originally married, or have whipping 100 times. These rules are not applied right now in the Islamic world except in Saudia Arabia and not all the times"

Do you remember when I mentioned those "bad ideas" Islam has, well you just posted a few of them. It is amazing to me you'd go so far in trying to tell me I was wrong and rude to say such a thing, then you go and post examples of exactly the kind of bad ideas one can find in the Koran.

You then say "these rules are not applied RIGHT NOW in the islamic world except in Saudia Arabia" but that is only because most countries fight against the sharia law being imposed. That fight is taking place right now in the UK. They won't ever be applied in most countries because they are....bad ideas.

You just shot yourself in the foot old boy.

And this is exactly what is freedom of speech, unfortunately. Both seem to have scored a point here.
I will stick to mine..."Religion causes wars", but a good debate settles it without bloodshed.

Kevin, let me ask you were these British citizens punished (I mean stoned, whipped, shot at or deported) for their "free speech" rights? and what do you think of London-istan as a new name for London? Sounds "cute" to me.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384344/Osama-Bin-Laden-death-UK-Muslims-stage-mock-funeral-outside-US-Embassy.html

Kevin you made me laugh too much because you are good even in cheating just to screw me out. You posted the part which suits your opinion and cut the main parts in my post which are these:

"There's no real religion, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which calls for terrorism or war but during the periods of these religions the religions' owners including the judges, kings princes deviated and modified some of the religious rules according to their desires."

"I'd like to tell that the truly applied Islam doesn't call for war or terrorism but plenty of muslims do deviate from that. No religion given by God invites for war or terror or horror but rather for brotherhood and forgiveness and many other good morals."

You reminded me of my university students' cheating at exams. They cut just what they need and bring in the classrooms. I'm also surprised why "A lonely Soul" supported you without reading what's been cut.

And BTW tell this to "A lonely Soul" as well and ask him to thoroughly and carefully read my post. It's shaming how to discuss these topic which are totally holy in this way but I'm proud that I haven't cheated you at all while you feel it shaming to confess that you are totally wrong. You know I never feel ashamed if I'm wrong but rather feel proud to confess because people are watching me. I really thank you for letting me discuss such an important topic that directly touches human life. If you have any other direct question just ask and I invite all members who like and favor discussing such subjects.

Now, I get shot in my foot for scoring a point each for each debator, just that! Where did I support Kevin in my last post?

But, here is what I would like to learn, do you support Shariah laws in total or part?
(Shariah laws are part of Qur'an and Sunnah)

Absolutely yes, I support Shariah laws in total and that's why I'm created and why I'm living. If I support them in part it means I believe just in some parts (not all) of Quran and do not believe in all ... and the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom.
And you support Kevin when you say religion is supporting for war. This is absolutely wrong. We the muslims have rights to fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against us, but begin not hostilities. That's what's mentioned in Quran, I think this is quite clear; and here's again the link for that:
http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/