Another School Massacre in USA

I've just heard about this terrible tragedy...twenty small children and 6 teachers...how aweful. May they rest in peace....so close to Christmas somehow makes in even worse.

I read about this earlier and my heart shatters. My son is only two, but I can imagine the pain those parents are going through. I do not understand AT ALL how someone can do this, I really don't.

Things like this make me thankful to be in the UK where incidents such as these are very rare.

My heart, thoughts and prayers go out to those affected and those innocent young children.

Why are school killings really big in the us
I know here in uk with have alot of knife crime
But killing kids , just tragic

God bless

This isn't a tragedy, this is direct cause and effect. Give people guns and they will shoot each other. Make guns legal and easy to obtain and they will shoot each other a lot.

I feel bad for the families, but this is what happens.

Kevin..."Give people guns and they will shoot each other. Make guns legal and easy to obtain and they will shoot each other a lot."

Does that mean you think if gun laws were updated (Forgive me I am in the UK where no-one is allowed a gun but as far as my knowledge anyone with a permit in the US can have one?) that would lessen crimes such as these?

**Edit- I see you post your location as UK also, but am still curious on my above question.

**TPBTP- Where in the UK are you?! I don't seem to have alot of knife crime in my area :/

I feel for the kids and for the teachers. It is sad. Last year a guy did the same here in Rio de Janeiro.

Hey Jenni,

I'm from Edinburgh in Scotland. We have almost zero gun crime here, in fact I can't even recall one instance of someone being shot and killed in all the years I've lived here. I'm sure there have been a few, but mostly that is drug related. Knife crime is a bit higher, but still it is not a big problem like it is in nearby Glasgow.

Most Americans I speak to who carry weapons say they need guns to protect themselves and their loved ones...from other people with guns. There is a very obvious circular logic there. Being able to obtain the right to carry and conceal a firearm is just asking for trouble.

The American people pay the price. No president is going to push for big changes in gun law though. Anyone who did would probably get shot.

Hmmm.

Off topic, I used to speak to someone via MSN who lived in Glasgow who told me violence of all kinds was a huge problem there :/

Anyway.

I can see your logic/understanding/reasoning there but also, with that respect....even updating laws (IMO, at least) would not solve anything.

For example..you say, "Being able to obtain the right to carry and conceal a firearm is just asking for trouble." but...there may be several people who wish to carry the firearm for protection ONLY, and then the few who would go on a rampage with it..I know if we were permitted to carry in the UK, I would certainly want one, BUT only for the protection of my family, particularly my 2 year old..I would never shoot anyone for no reason.

But coming back to the statement I quoted..even if gun laws WERE updated..would it really stop people aquiring them and citizens, US/UK or otherwise from getting their hands on them? I think they would just get hold of them illegeally instead of legally, if that were the case.

(Sorry if that doesn't make sense, 2.10am for me (and you haha) but after a few vodkas, countless nights of not sleeping, and being horrified by the world in general..and I'm an emotional train wreck!...lovely debut onto the main boards after lurking for 6 years ;)

I'd love to jump in here and defend my home city of Glasgow but....unfortunately I can't. It can be a violent city but mostly it's drug/gang/religion related and, as I was never invloved in any of that I never, at any time, felt unsafe or threatened in anyway. Never have I heard of a massacre such as this one over in the UK either....involving anyone..criminals or innocent victims.

It irritates me when something like this happens and people try to look for things to blame other than the individual who committed the offense.

Someone killed kids. Does it matter what their weapon of choice was? Does it matter that killing kids is a sign of mental illness?

There are no generalities proven by these instances. Guns, in general, do not kill people. People, in general, do not kill people. Mental illnesses, in general, do not drive people to kill people.

An individual committed the crime. ONE PERSON. And they are the one and only cause of this instance of severe violence... their abstractions and reasons should not be simplified or guessed at, and a dangerous object is not to blame.

Hellon, in no way do I mean to use Glasgow as an example, it's only that I have been told in the past it is quite unsafe in several areas (Hence my previous post)

That being said, however, I think ALL places are unsafe depending on which people live there/visit them. The place I grew up in was a small idillyic (sp) town and the place I live currently has a terrible reputation. The place I grew up in currently has an unlimited supply of drug dealers/users/thugs etc, the place I live in, I've lived for almost 3 years and never had a problem, lovely place, lovely street, lovely, neighbours and community, despite the rep!

*Edit. Jane, I love you.

Jenni...Kevin brought up Glasgow in the post before you so....that's why you probably had this city in your head....neither of you offended me...I agreed that it can be a violent city haha!!!

Jane...I understand what you're saying here...guns don't kill people but, maybe the licence screening needs to be rethought? When you say other weapons could have been used and, yes that's true but guns do more harm at a faster pace. Chances are...if this person was weilding a knife there would have been far less fatalities and...perhaps someone could have wrestled the knife from him.

Guns make it really easy for one person to kill a lot of people. That is why they should not be available to the public. They confer way too much power to individuals over others.

^^^^

Well said Kevin....I totally agree with you.

I say this often in M&M...I HATE I can only see the last post I'm replying to!

I'm glad I didn't offend you Hellon, I was unsure as even with the recent..misgivings..of my home town I'm quite..protective.. of it! But your anaology makes me ponder if anyone would have been brave enough/willing to do so.

Kevin, that's true, but as I said..not being 'available' so to speak, I don't think that would stop people getting a hold of them if they really wanted to, and even if if they struggled..knives are available, I'm sure there's many other 'makeshift' weapons used, which is why (atm, at least) my only solution is to make the justice system stronger/harsher in all states/countries.

-Edit: "Does it matter that killing kids is a sign of mental illness?" Jane is this something you have read/heard/learned somewhere? I was studying law and now studying pshcyc, and this makes me curious.

God bless those who lost their loved ones. I know that this simple sentence does not provide much comfort, but I truly hope (and believe) that he will. This should have never happened, especially to those who were still so young and innocent. 20 children ages 5-10...how horrid.

If I could take the pain away, I would. I bleed for them.

Kev, I agree with you to a point.

"I do not understand AT ALL how someone can do this, I really don't."

that means that you're not insane. Congrats! :D

"my only solution is to make the justice system stronger/harsher in all states/countries"

I really fail to see how this would help. I think there's probably enough money being wasted on judicial/prison systems in the states. Maybe health care programs that deal with the mentally disturbed?

Oh wait, sorry, we don't want to help people, we just want to make them miserable or kill them. Let's put all of our tax dollars into that instead.

Is there screening for gun purchases in the states? I mean someone who would perform an act such as this is obviously mentally unstable. Was the firearm his? Stolen? Did he have a history of mental health issues? In any case, it really seems that he shouldn't have had a gun. If laws were more strict he wouldn't have been able to do what he did. I mean maybe he would've charged in with a knife or some sort of home-made gun, but chances are he wouldn't have and if he did he would've been apprehended before doing too much damage (not that ANY damage would be good).

At this point, I'd say a gun salesman would sell a gun to a 12 year old a kid if he were abnormally tall. Hell, maybe if kids could bare arms the dude would have been too afraid to walk in and start shooting. That's the point of this whole business anyway, isn't it?

I know if I lived in the states I'd probably carry a gun. Not because I'd want to either. Lol

It's fine to say that one person did something, but there are several factors leading to that. And neither you or I can stab at every single issue, but what we can do is make conjectures. So far every conjecture that I've seen is more than reasonable.

It's pretty obvious how many issues are causing western society to crumble more and more each day.

Fight for the bloody right to crumble. Who's with me?

It is so sad to see innocents students and children become victims of the psychotic ideation of an individual/s time and time again....today in Newtown CT, and many places in the US in the last 2 decades....Littleton CO 1999, Virginia tech 2007, and more.

However, I don't believe it is a problem exclusive to the US. A bit of research shows that such senseless mass killings have occurred in many countries including Dunblane, Scotland UK 1996, Tasmania, Aust. 1996, Erfurt Germany 2002, Kuahajoki Finland 2008, Norway 2011...and so on (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/14/us-usa-shooting-connecticut-global-factb-idUSBRE8BD19720121214)

The problem to my read is much deep rooted and perhaps multi-factorial. The biggest issue in the US seems to be the ready availability of semi-automatic and assault weapons to individuals and an outdated law...neither have a place in a modern, civilized society.

The 2nd amendment (largely derived from the English Bill of rights 1689) was originally ratified in an era when the semi-automatic weapons used in mass killings did not exist, to give the people a right to protect themselves. That era is long gone...we have some serious rethinking to do. Allow automatic weapons, or limit it only to sports rifles and pistols or none at all.

Expressing sadness for the victims with each such incident is never going to solve the issue. It will likely happen again and again, as long as there are crazy people who somehow get their hands on these. It is not possible to predict who turns crazy after they have acquired the guns through legal means. One needs to go beyond and perhaps modify the 2nd amendment to today's realities in order to protect our society from the evils of weapons of mass murder that the founding fathers who ratified it in to the constitution probably never envisaged.
Apologies for my rant.

LS....the Hungerford Massacre I do remember reading about and had totally forgotten about it. The other two I don't recall, perhaps because I was living overseas by then...thanks for bringing it up here. Good to know that....although they all had tragic results, at least it made the government over there sit up and take a closer look which resulted in your normal Joe Bloggs being banned from carrying a firearm hence....no further tragedies (that I'm aware of)have occurred.

Jordan...I believe the weapon/weapons used were registered in the name of the mother of this person...whom he also shot dead.

I have never seen anyone targets children like his except in the war; even there, it is not deliberate like this.
the new version of : Once upon a time In America!!

My prayers goes for the little kids and the staff, the innocent man and the mother who got killed.
Its very sad to hear that people commit such crime on innocent people without even thinking the consequences.
Its very upsetting !!

I just can't help thinking about the christmas presents that will go unopened in a lot of families households..Why did it happen....they were children
FFS....

In 2011-12, Scottish police forces recorded 514 offences in which a firearm was alleged to have been involved, a decrease of 21% from 2010-11. The number of offences in which a firearm was discharged and subsequently caused fatal or non-fatal injury to a person decreased by 14% from 111 in 2010-11 to 95 in 2011-12.
Over the last 10 years, air weapons have consistently been the most commonly identified weapon used in recorded offences involving a firearm.

There were an estimated 59,600 individuals with problem drug use in Scotland in 2009-10, corresponding to a rate of 1.71% of the population aged 15 to 64.
This represents an increase in estimated numbers of over 4,000 since the last available estimates, which estimated that in 2006, there were around 55,300 individuals with problem drug use.
Although the prevalence rate of problem drug use in Scotland amongst individuals aged between 15 and 64 years has increased from 1.62% of the population in 2006 to 1.71% in these latest estimates, it cannot be said conclusively that actual prevalence has increased. However, the report authors note that they can be reasonably sure that the prevalence of problem drug use has not declined since 2006.
The Scottish Government has established a National Indicator on Scotland Performs to decrease the estimated number of individuals with problem drug use.

In 2011-12, there were 88 cases of homicide involving 90 victims. This represents a decrease of 11 victims from 2010-11. There were 124 persons accused of homicide in Scotland in 2011-12.
Over the last 10 years, the most common method of killing has consistently been with a sharp instrument. In 2011-12, of the 103 persons accused of homicide, for whom the alcohol and drug status was known, 82% were reported to have been drunk and/or under the influence of drugs at the time.

fter the slight dip observed last year, the prison population has increased by 4 per cent to an annual daily average of 8,178 for 2011-12. This represents a return to the overall rate of growth observed over the past decade, and population levels remain very high in relation to the current design capacity of about 7,840. The current increase is driven by a marked increase of 11 per cent in the adult remand population and a somewhat smaller increase of 3 per cent for the sentenced population. The increase in the sentenced population is primarily due to marked increases in sentences between three months and two years (9 per cent overall), and more modest increases for the life sentence and recall populations which have increased by 5 and 3 per cent respectively.
During 2011-12, the young offender sentenced population showed a marked drop of 8 per cent to 556. The average daily population increased by 4 per cent to 7,710 for men, while the female population increased by 8 per cent to 468.
The latest set of prison population projections suggest that the daily prison population in Scotland will increase from an annual average of 8,300 in 2012-13 to 9,500 by 2020-21.

Noted; population odf Scotland vs. USA... Scotland 5,200,800 million. USA... population 314,000,000 million.

The Dunblane school massacre occurred at Dunblane Primary School in the Scottish town of Dunblane on 13 March 1996. The gunman, 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton (b. 10 May 1952), entered the school armed with four handguns, shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 2010 Cumbria shootings, it remains one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in the history of the United Kingdom.
Public debate subsequent to these events centred on gun-control laws, including media-driven public petitions calling for a ban on private ownership of handguns and an official enquiry, the Cullen Report. In response to this debate, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 were enacted, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom.

While the people of the U.S. are shocked and deeply saddened ,as is decent people all over the world, it is easy to blame and easier to over look insanity. A deranged individual acting alone did the dastardly deed. Guns, knives, poison, ropes, lamp cords, drugs, proscription pills no matter is not the cause. Even at that not the vehicle of use. Causes will be guessed at by specialists to no avail. Nothing will get solved nor will it become preventable. Unfortunately the United States is under a microscope for world observance. Quickly it is so easy to prognoses to inner satisfactions. The problem however being hidden from view and only guessed location.
Deeper will find however mans confusion of being. I can only speak of what I see from my view. A subject written about in the past on how man becomes more like over populated vermin. Scurrying daily from hither and yon to no-where. Greed, loss of purpose, too much accesses to, to easy to get away with, to easy the penalties, to few the rewards. Family bond abandonment. Rumors innuendos. Reducing sacred to rubble. And we reach blame. Like scared children we can not take responsibility we cover our eyes and point....

Every one should read on.... Behavioral Sink -Wikipedia ... clues galore

Donald....your posts are always very long and I do love reading them but..tonight I'm tierd so ....if my knowledge is correct and (I have not lived there for many a day) the government is now in discussion about banning air guns....Kevin/Jenni/anyone else from UK....is this correct?

No parent should have to bury their child... sigh my heart goes out to them.

CNN and Fox also put the picture of the wrong person up first, he happens to have the same name and now he has to deal with a shit loads of hatred and hate pages created for him although he did not do anything.

^^^
CNN and Fox also put the picture of the wrong person up first, he happens to have the same name and now he has to deal with a shit loads of hatred and hate pages created for him although he did not do anything.

The shooter was carrying his brother's identification and that is why the incorrect brother was shown and identified as the shooter. That has since been corrected and the remaining brother cleared of any wrong doing.

Edit: Thanks for letting me know. I got what you mean now... sorry this is just a bit much.

From the Executive Director of Gun Owners of America:

"Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no
administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting
rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are
finally confronted by someone with a gun."

This is real life.

Give people guns to save us from people with guns.

What about when one of your teachers has underlying psychosis?

GET A GRIP.

Here's a list of mass murders in the Americas. Yeah, I know it's Wikipedia so you can contest it, but it must be fairly accurate to have garnered approval.

Look how many are in the US alone and tell me there's not something wrong.

Before you get offended by my statements, I love my American friends. I'm not bashing people from the states as individuals, but there must be some great issues causing all of this.

Could it be all of the horrible discrepancies between what it is to be rich and what it is to be poor or ugly and beautiful? Lack of affordable health care? Easy access to dangerous weapons? Constant insensitivity in the public aiding in the spreading of hatred?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Americas

I suspect this killing was a case of an unresolved Oedipal complex in a boy experiencing what Freud would call castration anxiety - a fear of both literal and figurative emasculation. This is just my speculation.

Somewhere in yesterday's news I heard that the boy may have had learning issues (? will learn more as the news evolves) and may have developed jealousy + rage against the little kids who his mom taught (and believed loved more than him). He may still be in the Phallic stage of development without en evolution beyond, and without the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong (i.e never developed a superego).

(Here the kids became the victim of his rage instead of the Father, as elaborated by Freud in his description of the Oedipal complex, or for girls the "electra complex").

What do you think Ms. and Mrs. Psych major? :)
or whoever else who love psychology.

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

I found this on Facebook and thought it was worth promoting.

As for my thoughts... Of course it's a multitude of experiences and personality deficits that led the shooter to commit his crime and go out with a bang. I agree that our sensationalist media does a great job giving horrible people celebrity status and an unmistakable aura of appeal, but I won't rant.

From what I've read this kid's parents were authoritarian - a parenting style associated with aggression in kids. His pent up frustration toward his parents escalated when they divorced, the illusion of perfection shattered, stirring up bitterness and resentment for forcing him into years of obedience ("My parents can't even fix their marriage, and they think know best? Hypocrites"). After the divorce, the judge suggested parenting lessons - what does that tell you?
I guess he was still living under his mother's roof at age 20. Anyway, shooter continued succumbing to his mother's strict rules, but his obedience was no longer blind, and instead of standing up for himself or utilizing normal coping strategies, he let the fantasy of offing his mom turn into a reality. If he had poor coping strategies for dealing with stress, there would've been signs from infancy (when we first begin developing these skills). I'm going to assume he experienced feelings of inadequacy as a young man and felt little autonomy. Maybe his childhood was (in his eyes) awful enough that killing 20 kids was in essence "saving" 20 kids from what life really is.
At some point leading up to the event he may have experienced a psychotic break, but I doubt it. I think the event was calculated and premeditated, if only to an extent. The intentions were that of someone who felt his life offered no happy way out of his present circumstances, causing him to fantasize about a dramatic departure. You could call him mentally ill, but I would hesitate to say the root of this kid's imminent violent act and suicide was anything other than a combination of poor parenting, incalculable amounts of stress, depression/anxiety, poor coping strategies, and a very unhealthy view of the world he lived in.
This is all speculation from a couple articles I read. I'm either wrong or only slightly hitting the mark.

My very basic opinion of why these acts are becoming more common in the U.S.
Media, stress, ignored cries for help. Our world is extremely stressful... our personalities are becoming more complex. High rates of depression/anxiety, unsuccessful coping strategies, feelings of helplessness, and a media that offers a free pass to fame if you off yourself dramatically and take others out with you. If you commit suicide privately without physically harming others, you become a number, not a name. Finally, I think our world is making life without encountering other humans easier. We need human contact to be healthy. Without it, risk of becoming a sociopath is greater, among countless other malignancies.

I do respectfully disagree that this was a "calculated and premedicated" event if we are pointing a finger at him as being a "cold blodded and ruthless" killer....nope, those are true psychopaths.

I suspect he was a "big kid" still wearing "little kids" shoes...a case of severe developmental delay of being still stuck in the "phallic" stage, with no "superego".

Let us see what evolves in the coming days ahead. I am sure Sigmund Freud, if he was alive today would have written this case up as a case of an unresolved Oedipal complex......difficult to prove, though.

Here's your hero: Victoria Soto

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9746935/Teachers-sacrificed-themselves-to-save-their-pupils.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/15/sandy-hook-teacher-victoria-soto

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Victoria-Soto-Selfless-183655741.html

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20656736_20657003,00.html

Freud was a commodity of his time, but most of his ideas about human behavior have been debunked. I hesitate to put value in his musings.

Don't disagree, but is he not still regarded as the father of psychoanalysis? Din't his theories of psychosexual development and Oedipal complex lay down the foundations for modern psychology?

My speculation above on the Oedipal complex jealousy theory was based on a news (that I heard not read) yesterday that his mother was also killed (just today became aware that she was killed at their home, and it is unclear whether she was a teacher there...though a paper reports her being a substitute) and I incorrectly presumed that she was teaching in the school when the murders took place....so the Oedipal complex speculation withdrawn for now.

Yes Larry, the real hero was the young teacher in this senseless massacre, who threw herself in front of the shooter to save the children.....a heartwarming unselfish act. Thanks for pointing it out.

It seems this Lanza kid was described as a "nice kid" with honors, but perhaps with a personality disorder.....

http://www.france24.com/en/20121215-adam-lanza-suspected-gunman-shooting-school-newtown-usa?ns_campaign=editorial&ns_source=RSS_public&ns_mchannel=RSS&ns_fee=0&ns_linkname=20121215_adam_lanza_suspected_gunman_shooting_school

Let us wait and see what more turns out, as to his motivation to kill children in that particular school. Incomprehensible for now, in the heart of every parent....and I am one too.

I'm sorry but I don't really care whether he had a mental illness or not. Had he survived...I'm pretty sure the do-gooders of society would have come to the party making excuses on his behalf. He would have been given everything that's available these days to offer a reason why he was the way he was. Pish posh....that's not going to help the families who have lost loved ones and it's certainly never going to bring these precious children back so....forgive me for sounding heartless towards him...there is nowhere in my heart to forgive or excuse someone like this.

I din't imply sympathy in my comments for the killer, just speculated at the thinking behind a heinous crime. Assault guns are equally to blame, and their easy availability in many homes, for this mass murder to be possible by a honor kid turned psychopath or whatever.

------------------------------------------
EDIT: More on Adam Lanza....a case of a very disturbed kid........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/9748430/Connecticut-school-shooting-Adam-Lanza-was-very-bright-but-battled-school-authorities-says-his-aunt.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248782/Adam-Lanza-How-classmates-remember-genius-turned-heartless-killer.html?ICO=most_read_module

Raises a big question in my mind, should parents of such kids even keep any firearms at home? Should there be a voluntary registry for such kids with the gun purchaser screening databases to prevent them easy access/ability to buy/access any firearms.
In this case, sadly the mother who owned the 3 firearms (1 of which was a semiautomatic rifle)taught her son how to use firearms.

I wasn't aiming my comment at you LS....I wasn't aiming it at anyone... I just know that, if this guy had survived, he would have had the best of everything to make us "understand"him better perhaps and....I don't agree with that.

They can even protect an embassy headquarters in a foreign country with fighter jets, battleships, rockets, c ia, fbi, and every inch of response technology to record, so how the hell they protect a school out in the country is beyond mystical prowess.
Take away guns? Eh? They can't even prevent millions of tons of drugs coming into the American cities .
And to direct to the above who said America unique??? Numerous schools in Europe have had massacres. Research history sir (recent or otherwise). Research serial killers in European countries. Some even have guns not allowed but guns still being used. And not only guns...how bout home made weaponry bombs and booby traps.
I may get reprimanded for this but seems to me ... ring a bell and give a dog a bone and soon...just the sound of a bell will make the ignorant dog drool without the bone. Same with when something happens in America...the ignorant dogs drool.
And of course politicians of negativity will jump at the chance to take something else away from "free" Americans.

Donald...do you have a gun? do you have more than one? Ok...All american members...tell me the truth...how many guns do you have?

Guns ate made for killing, semi-automatic guns are designed so that many people can be killed un a short space of time. The same gun laws that allow the majority of decent americand to get guns also allows potential criminals, mentally unstable people etc to get them. This amount of guns and this amount of people and these sort of shootings are bound to happen.

Main responsibility goes to the individual who did this crime but the availability of guns helped make it possible.

Ill expand when i get on a computer