The man rules

There are lots of ways to keep things running smoothly. For some, maybe a "woman inside, man outside" deal works. As long as they're both happy and content, I can't complain. But that's also not the only way of doing things.

My parents are equal on pretty much every front. They both have master's degrees and have careers at the same level (my mom might make a little more now, I'm not sure). Around the house, my mom does the bills and taxes, organizes the social / work calender, and cooks most nights. My dad squashes spiders, fixes plumbing and cars, and makes the pies, popcorn, pancakes, and occasional dinners. Both do the dishes, both do the laundry, both take turns getting up early with the dog. They both clean their house, and discuss their larger purchases with each other. They own and work in common.

I'm from a family full of rather strong woman role models. It's full of smart, capable ladies who know their own minds and their own abilities. In my immediate family, my mom is the one you need to ask permission of. For my parents and their personalities, this is what works best. My mom is more particular, my dad is more easy-going. They are compatible.

Side note: I think it's cool that we live in an age where, for the most part, we can discuss things like gender roles and their variations without fearing that someone is going to get killed for it.

Anyway, I don't want to tell anyone the "right" way of doing things. People like what they like in a partner. If you are attracted to guys who strictly follow the current interpretation of "manly," then there's really nothing to be done about it. You like what you like. I think there have been plenty of relationships (especially in older generations, I feel) where those traditional roles worked just fine and led to long, healthy relationships. I think it all depends on the people filling the roles, not the roles themselves.

Personally, I have had a bad experience with traditional interpretation of those roles. Respectfully, and acknowledging all I've just said, I'd like to offer that experience.

I never felt defensive about gender until I got into a relationship with a guy who felt very strongly about traditional, Biblical gender roles. Suddenly I was being told things like "yes, girls can be smart, but they tend to act more silly." "Men have more logical minds and are more capable of complex thought." "Even if you feel like you're right, you should defer to men, because that's what God wants." Then it got a bit more dangerous: "You weren't very hospitable to my friends." "You shouldn't wear skirts, because it makes men think of having sex with you." Ditto for sweatpants, tight jeans, tank tops. I shouldn't dress revealingly, because it gave men ideas. I shouldn't cover up too much, because it would make men just want to undress me more. Then: "You should have sex with me, because it would be less sinful for me to dispel my lust with another person, than for me to let it fester alone." I'd like to note that I rebelled this whole way, but I still stayed with him. He was my first boyfriend, and I guess I didn't know what I was doing. As much as I hate it, I feel like I'm still dealing with the lack of confidence that came out of this relationship. A lot of it was due to his personality - obviously, not all men would act like this, even if they were traditional. But I do feel like these circumstances arose out of his interpretation of the Bible, and the belief that men are somehow above women and closer to God.

As a contrast, I look at the guy I'm with now. I've known him pretty well since he was 13 or younger... I've literally seem him BECOME a man. My experience with him couldn't be more different than it was with my first boyfriend.

In a lot of ways, he could be a traditional "manly man." He's a tallish guy with wide shoulders, strong arms, and a full beard. He wears pants with holes in them and flannel shirts that were clearly worn by old men. He doesn't care about his looks or clothes (though he does seem to be developing a like for italian leather shoes...) He shaves with a straight razor. He washes his hair with a bar of Irish Springs. He grew up fixing cars, building rockets, and chopping firewood for the wood stove that heats their house. He went to school to study physics (a very male-heavy field) and now works in IT (ditto).

I like all these things about him, because they are a part of him. They make up part of the dear soul that he is. (Plus, he'd be SO handy in a zombie apocalypse or on a deserted island. He'd probably make me a hot tub out of sea weed and coconuts, somehow.)

But anyway, that's not all that he is. He likes poetry. He's the guy his friends go to for quiet advice, if they ever take a break from their jokes and various hijinks. He is great with babies, authoritative and fun with older kids. Once, when he was moving a woodpile, he disturbed a nest of baby mice. He was anxious when the mom ran off, but he waited, watching, until she had come back to retrieve every one. I mean, this guy can stand so quietly and so patiently in the woods that fawns come up to meet him. I'm rambling. I'm just saying that these are things that, by that list's reckoning, would probably not be considered "macho." But that might be fair... I don't think there's an ounce of machismo or dumb bravado in his body. I mean, I think he's sexy as hell, but his manliness isn't what won me over.

He's been more kind and sweet with me than I have any right to deserve. He took me out of a relationship where I felt bitter, sullied, and downtrodden, and he transformed love for me. Before, with my first boy, things felt lustful on his end, shameful on mine. With this fellow, there isn't anything we could do that wouldn't be right. With his complete, wonderful, abiding gentleness, he has my heart wrapped around his finger. I respect him a thousand times more through his actions than I ever would have if he had told me to simply respect him because he's a man.

Ironically, perhaps, I would gladly cook him as many meals as he wanted. In general, nothing could turn me off faster than "get the f back in the kitchen." If a guy said that to me, I wouldn't even want to be a casual acquaintance. But because Tony would never say it - not for fear of my harridan screeching, but because it would never, ever even OCCUR to him to say it - I would do just about anything for him, out of both love and respect.

To me, being manly doesn't have to do with liking sports or beer, or being in charge of women. It means doing what needs to be done, acting with class and integrity, and treating others respectfully. Maybe that's just maturity in general.

I guess the point of this long, rambling post is to say "welp... different strokes for different folks." I can see how the traditional roles work for some people - for some people it puts them at ease and fulfills them. For me, they put me on edge and make everything more forced and more sad. Hopefully people can see that it doesn't work for everyone.

Tony sounds like a helluva guy. When are you going to ask him the big question?

My point isn't that I have a problem with what anyone's doing.

It's what people aren't doing that makes me so mad.

If you want to live your life a particular way then it's far beyond me to say anything. And if you'll notice I never once said anyone shouldn't do anything.

It just really kills me to see people (especially young people) who don't stand up for the growth and expansion for their fellow humans.

I am interested in the so many different point of views.

I am not sure what type of man I am.....

however I am a bit of a dreamer sometimes...

I read all of Sibs post and the first thing I sat back and thought was....

'I think I might grow a beard'

That was the first thing I took from that.

I think I will have to read it again!!

Seriously, He sounds like a great guy, But from the outside it seems your relationship works so well because there is no 'intolerance' you both seem free to be who you really are, not pandering to what the other one wants you to be.

(just my opinion)

Ditto^^^. Perhaps, he (not she) needs to ask the qn, in his manly way when the time is ripe :)

Very happy for you. A rare and deserving find it seems from your description. Respect for the other person, unpretentiousness, recognizing each others limitations and encouragement >> criticism, humility and compatibility is more important than assertiveness, showmanship/bravado or any form of gender role play for a long lasting, successful relationship. God Bless.

You know PNQ,rs this reminds me of a Song, the
Who,s, "Squeeze Me" lyrics. Cause if Momma
ain,t happy, ain,t nobody happy!
So men take care of your Lady
Men who like man, take care of your Lady
Women who like woman, take care of your Lady
Enuchs, take care of your Lady
Crossdressers, you ain,t Man or Women, albeit
beautiful in you own way. Take care, Ha, Ha, Ha,

All the Facets ( A Genie Sees)

Upon the Eve of Creation
Adams were splitting Heirs
With pressure on those Jewels
Rely upon the Diamonds

Wonderful post, Sib.

^

However, I think women need to shut the f up and stay in the kitchen

^^^

Miss Stepford wife imagining the perfect life...please come back and repost this in 10 years time....when you have a couple of rug rats dangling from your angles!

And I do hope the lady suffagettes will be honoured here...we (females) are allowed to vote as a result of these wonderful women!

Yeah, about that sentence...

Out of curiosity, I want to ask a couple of questions:

1) If that sentence was said by a male, would there have been more intolerance to it?
2) How does this compare to someone here saying "I think blacks should shut the f up and go back to the cotton fields"?
People have been instantly suspended for expressing these sorts of personal beliefs that discriminate a particular race. Chelsey's belief pertains to half of the population. Does that also dilute the effect somehow?

I am all for freedom of expression, probably because I am always interested in what people have to say, however it may shock or disgust me. But... I suppose I am about equal tolerance for these expressions. Apart from Hellon's slight reaction, I'm not quite seeing it here. I want to know what you think are the factors allowing this?

Spare me the name calling Hellon...No such thing as a perfect life, I'm not that naive.

So we should not tend to our mate because children are running around? Again, that's the kind of excuses that saddens me when women say that. Having children is also a choice (unless by rape,
:( but let's not get into that) .....you choose to not protect yourself and have kids, but being a mother does not take away your title as a wife as well. You have to do what you have to do and that means having a meal ready for your family. Having your house clean....I'm not saying its easy, hell my mom had three kids and I watched her do it. So I'm saying its doable and it should be done.

I'm also not saying there is no other way to live than what I believe, like I told Jordan, live your life the way you want, no one should make you feel bad for it. I just believe in "wives, submit yourself to your husbands." I think they should be and deserve to be catered to. (Clearly not if you have an abusive mate) ....that's far different than telling and African American to go back to the cotton feels. Wow, They were horribly mistreated I would never dare say that.
Tending your husband is not a mistreatment it should be what's expected when you said "I do.".

There is no intolerance from me. I've had a boyfriend tell me to go make him a sandwich and I laugh about it and tell him to "go buy me a diamond ring:"...its not a big deal to me. Joking or not joking, either way id be happy to make the damn thing because of how much he does for me. My last boyfriend pampered me, always made sure I was safe and secure with everything, so anytime he wanted something, I didn't mind doing. Why would I when he would do the same for me?

Its about respecting each other, making sure one another happy.

"Its about respecting each other, making sure one another happy."

I agree with that, in its simplicity. But I think the motive should be "care for and respect your partner, ...because you care about them," not "care for your man because he's a man and you're a woman." I see a distinction there.

Most women these days (at least in America) are not nearly as dependent on male income. To say "it's his money and his house" doesn't reflect the reality for most people. When my guy was jobless for a while, I was the one being the sugar momma and paying for dinner, most of the time. I didn't expect him to repay me in money, chores or favours, because there are no debts between us. I knew that he would do the same for me (and in fact did, the next year) and he wouldn't expect recompense either. Yeah, I "owe" him a lot... but it's in emotional stability and the perk of always having a good buddy who will listen to my thoughts and cheer me up. To go beyond that feels weird.

To Abby, regarding that quote: I guess it did matter to me who was saying it. If a guy said it, I would have a major problem, and I would be angry. Since a girl said it, I went from shocked to kind of sad. But at least she's saying it "to herself," in some respect. Are derogatory statement the same when they are self-contained? I'm not sure. You raise good questions.

There is a marked difference in the kind of power balance between a couple, and the civil liberties men and women enjoy. Granted, the two things are connected. If women are not respected in their legal rights (as was the case in britain and America, and sadly still in many parts of the world) then of course that tranlates into a higher chance they won't be respected in private relationships.

That isn't the case with Chelsey, or I'd like to think any other woman posting in this thread. Who fucking cares if someone decides they want to be effectively submissive to their partner. If it works for them, have at it and I don't think it slows down the progress of society of chips away at the hard won equality women have been pushing for all these years.

I know a guy, who is a proper manly man, and right now he is living with a friend of mine who basically treats him like a slave. She is into that as a kink, and turns out it works for him too. Do I think he is retarded for it, yeah..but only in the sense I get to mock him in a friendly way. He loves it, she loves it. NO victim no crime.

Exactly Kevin :) thanks.

I'm not sure why people are getting upset with me or calling me things when I'm just stating what I feel is submissive and what I wish more women would stop complaining about.

I've shared my opinion that's all :) good discussion

Hey i'm all for women standing up for their rights but i was raised to be a fighter for my rights in a relationship it literally destroys me to be really submissive doesn't mean i don't submit to a partner from time to time that's the part of being in a relationship you have to SHARE the power not have complet control of it if it's against their express feelins and i guess everyone has their own rights and it's all good!

I don't think people understand really what Chelsey means by submitting to your husband. It's not giving him all the control in the relationship. It's respect. The bible states for women to submit (respect) to their husbands and husbands are called to love their wives.. because men and women are wired differently, the average male automatically assumes respect, but has to work on loving her in the way she needs, just as the average woman is wired to love/nurture but has to work on showing respect to him. That's the faith part of it, anyway.

Sib, I am really sorry you had such an awful relationship, and that is definitely not the biblical way at all.. anyone who uses the bible to manipulate others to do what they want is wrong to me. You and Tony sound more biblical than anything. You love and respect each other.

Jason and I have a very traditional, biblical marriage.. as most of you guys have called me a Stepford wife before (psst, Hellon) and I will accept that term and appreciate it. I assume the female role very well -- I do most of the cooking and cleaning (Jason does laundry, takes out the trash, kills the bugs and BBQs), and also all the finances as I'm more organized between the two of us. Jason does all the outside work (minus planting flowers, though he will help me weed). We both make the major decisions, and know that there are smaller decisions we can make on our own without the others input. We both work full time so right now we help each other out, but when I stay at home I do my part and don't mind. We found a healthy way that works for us, and that's more imporant. Some relationships you'll have the male being a phenomenal cook while the woman burns everything she touches -- no big deal.

I don't think it's ignorance or chipping away at women's rights, nor is it akin to racial rights either. It's about people knowing what they want, and allowing that expectation to be a reality in their relationship. I wasted a lot of time on men who didn't meet my expectations and I couldn't meet theirs. Jason and I exceed that, and we work as a team VERY well.

Now if he told me to get in the kitchen and make him a sandwich, I'd probaby make him one, but it'd be something he hates (egg salad). Respect and love go both ways.

Eve is a part of Adam's rib.

That's why I believe that Adam was born to predominate her in the sense of taking the final decision...being the utmost breadwinner of the family... and the protector when it comes to pride & honor of his wife and children.

Of course, that doesn't mean that women should always come in the second place or that they should be submissive in the sense of slavery. They should be given their space and freedom. And in my opinion, real men are the kings who treat their wives as queens.

Amen brotha! :) lol

"I assume the female role very well"

THE FEMALE ROLE

ROLE

It's like we're in a play or something.

I wish you guys would stop saying things like that. You wouldn't know but there are still dinosaurs clopping around outside.

Brit and Chels, it's not what you do that is pissing me off. I just want to re-assert that. It's just the way that you describe it. To be honest, Britt I think you're using traditional terms to describe a fairly modern relationship.

Life's too short to use such restrictive terms to describe our existence. You're born by chance and you die before you know it. But I suppose you think that your calendar is a meaningful piece of information, too? That's a joke. Couldn't help it.

I'll just close by saying it's a damn good thing that there are people in the world willing to stand up for you since you don't seem to want to.

"That's why I believe that Adam was born to predominate her in the sense of taking the final decision....

....Of course, that doesn't mean that women should always come in the second place or that they should be submissive in the sense of slavery."

predominate
Verb

1. Be the strongest or main element; be greater in number or amount: "small-scale producers predominate in the south".

2. Have or exert control or power.

When someone always has the final say, that means the other person is always in second place. What you said is hypocrisy with a capital H.

Also I'm not sure if you knew or not, but men and women both have the same number of ribs. Having an uneven number is an anomaly.

I think something most of us are agreeing upon is that people should have the freedom to do what they want within their own lives and relationships. You pick your social constructs or your aberrations to them, and go along with them when they make you fulfilled. Yeah?

The only point at which I start to really have a problem is when either one party of the relationship feels they have no say, or else when people start saying "this is how you SHOULD be acting."

Sibs, you were born from my rib. Quit it.

Eve is a part of Adam's rib.

^ Yeah, and they both have belly buttons. Think about that for a minute.

----

Britt, the difference between Chelsea and your views on gender roles is striking.

You are excellent at expressing your traditional values in a way that allows gender counterparts to have equal respect and worth, although with subjectively different duties to one another. Although it is not a family life I would choose for myself, I can appreciate where you're coming from.

Chelsea, your views, or at least how you express them, are derogatory toward women. Would you have us believe you think women are whiney, unappreciate bitches, and if we knew our place in the gender game, we would be seen and not heard? You seem to think that because you 'know your place,' you are some kind of prize, while the rest of us are a burden to all the poor men in the world that have to deal with us.
This is the impression I've been given by your posts.

There's a difference, as you can see, and if anyone thinks putting down your own gender to make yourself look better is a good way of winning favor... think again.

There's no right way of doing things, that's the consensus. We should respect each other's personal choices. That means nobody on the continuum gets to say, "this is how it should be done, and if you disagree, you're wrong."

The only time you're wrong is when you tell others they're wrong.

As I have said time & again, I have no problem with anyone's relationship and the manner they maintain it, so long as it is entered and continued by consent on both sides.

I do think that censoring other people's relationships because you disagree with them is fruitless and arrogant.

However, by the same token, difference in attitude is also the prerogative of the individual and despite differing in my opinion from many in here about relationships, it's not my superior place to say you are wrong.

Finally, in many different terms, many people are describing their own relationships as workable, mutually consensual and personally satisfying. More power to you.

I don't blame you if you believe that humans evolved from I don't know what since I smell mockery in your response, but to me, my faith says that Eve was born from Adam's ribs.

And don't you see that yes, Adam is stronger physical and mind wise compared to the hormones-controlled Eve? that's why I used predominates; however, I said in what sense...

Women were created to be emotional.. while men were created to be more rationale.

I appreciated that you are a female pro.. but there are 2 separate sexes.. and if you believe in 'total' equality, then all species should have been hermaphroditic.

"The only point at which I start to really have a problem is when either one party of the relationship feels they have no say, or else when people start saying "this is how you SHOULD be acting."

Most of Chelsey's posts have been describing how women or 'you' (not just her) SHOULD indeed be acting. She has been saying this in a public forum. How is this self-contained? It didn't come across as just a personal preference that works for her. It came across as her world view on men and women in general. I guess not many others interpreted it that way, which has surprised me.

Chelsey, sorry for talking about you in the third person all the time. I agree this is a good discussion for a change. There should be more like this!

LP... am I right in saying that you are studying to be doctor?

I am pro female.
I am pro male.
I can't see far enough into the past to know where we came from. I have no qualms with religion.

"Hormone-controlled Eve."
Men AND women have hormones, Abed, not women alone.

Men have greater physical strength, but where do you get the "stronger mind" thing from? The bible or science? If it's the latter, you might want to try again. Our brains have differences, sure, but since when is one stronger than the other? I would like to see your facts.

I was addressing Jordan in my 1st post.

Jane, men & women have hormones... you don't say?
Biologically, the hormonal system of females is more complex than males.

stronger mind?
I think you've mistaken me with "IQ" which I didn't mean it in that sense.

""The only point at which I start to really have a problem is when either one party of the relationship feels they have no say, or else when people start saying "this is how you SHOULD be acting."

Most of Chelsey's posts have been describing how women or 'you' (not just her) SHOULD indeed be acting. She has been saying this in a public forum. How is this self-contained? It didn't come across as just a personal preference that works for her. It came across as her world view on men and women in general. I guess not many others interpreted it that way, which has surprised me."

That's what I'm saying. I'm fine with people's decisions in their personal lives, but I don't like when it becomes prescriptive. In this thread, I think Chelsey can do what she wants with her boyfriend, but I don't appreciate "women should get the fuck back in the kitchen and stop complaining." Maybe I didn't voice that distinction clearly.

Here Abed, this is for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism

I rarely participate or express my opinion in the main forums but when I read what Chelsey wrote I almost fell out of my chair. I read it as she thinks that all "women should get the fuck back in the kitchen and stop complaining." If she wants to live her life that way fine, but do not dare to tell me or any other woman or suggest that we should do the same. It is highly insulting. By the way I am almost 70 years so I know a little about how relationships work and don't work.

I got what you wanted to say, Jordan.
Men and women were created equal in all aspects.

But really, this isn't the case.
In higher chordates, especially in vertebrates, the separate sexes have each distinct roles in their community, physiology, etc... And I think that this is an obvious evidence that their isn't 'total' equality between both genders; otherwise, they would've been monoecious.

Returning back to Jane for elaboration, although both synthesize the same hormones, their ratios differ.. so:

How estrogen affects you: Estrogen impacts your mood, optimism, brain skills, chattiness, energy, appetite, extroversion, stress, desire to find a mate and pain threshold.

How testosterone affects you: Testosterone impacts brain skills, impulsiveness, libido, energy, desire for adventure, competitiveness and courage.

How progesterone affects you: Progesterone impacts your appetite, cravings, desire to "nest" (meaning to make your home more comfortable) and desire for safety. It also makes you sleepy and can make you forgetful and less eloquent as you speak.

... And we all know that progesterone and estrogen dominate the female hormonal cycle, so their emotions mostly overwhelm other brain stuff.

,, I also found this:

Boys generally demonstrate superiority over female peers in areas of the brain involved in math and geometry. These areas of the brain mature about four years earlier in boys than in girls, according to a recent study that measured brain development in more than 500 children. Researchers concluded that when it comes to math, the brain of a 12-year-old girl resembles that of an 8-year-old boy. Conversely, the same researchers found that areas of the brain involved in language and fine motor skills (such as handwriting) mature about six years earlier in girls than in boys.

---- Also, I read that this doesn't imply that men's IQ is higher because studies have shown that the average IQ for both is approximately the same... so I meant with mind-wise in my previous post the 'non-emotional drive'.

We're humans. Community is what we make it.

That's all I've been saying this whole time. And men and women are changing both physically and mentally now.

How old are your textbooks and by whom were they published, Abed?

I mean in North Korea they believe that the seasons spontaneously changed from spring to winter upon his birth. It's in historical books. Do you believe everything you read?

do

""I assume the female role very well"

THE FEMALE ROLE

ROLE

It's like we're in a play or something."

I hope not, I'm an awful actress lol. I use the term role because I ALWAYS ALWAYS hear of gender "roles". That's probably where it strikes your nerve/frustration/whatever it is (trying to not put words in your mouth here), but I say it out of a force of habit.

Better wording after thinking more would be I assume the stereotypical female ... shit I still don't know. I'm tired, it's been a long day, and dang it role just makes more sense in my brain! You're a wordsmith, Jordan, I am not.. I can't conjure up a better word for ya :P

LP I get what you meant by the hormonal thing, and that's based back on stereotypes which is what this discussion is trying to get away from (I think). I know that I'm a highly hormonal female and it definitely impacts my life -- I'm emotional whereas Jason is more logical and rational.

I feel like this discussion is gearing toward an "it's not okay for men and women to be different", when we ARE different... very different creatures. Of course some men have "female" qualities, and some women have "male" qualities. All stereotypes. Blah I'm rambling now.

I don't think anyone's arguing that there aren't physical or chemical difference between men and women.

The argument is that there should be total equality in rights and opportunities, because men and women have the same ability to observe and understand their world, form their own opinions, and act in a way conducive to their happiness. These rights aren't rooted in physicality - they should be rights because we're all humans, all made of the same essential "stuff" that's important. To put it religiously: a woman's soul is just as fine as yours.

How does fact that women tend to have less testosterone running through their system translate to the argument that they are somehow more fitted to washing their husbands' socks?

"How does fact that women tend to have less testosterone running through their system translate to the argument that they are somehow more fitted to washing their husbands' socks?"

I think it has to do with the nuture/nesting thing..at least that's my opinion.

I think we all (mostly) agree but are saying it in different ways. I don't know anyone here who thinks men and women shouldn't have the same opportunities, opinions etc.

You might not see it the same way, admittedly, but when I'm told that I should defer to a man because he's a man, and act in a certain way because I'm a woman, I feel it as a charge on my autonomy and perceived abilities, all based on something as arbitrary as a chromosone. Non-normally gendered people aside, I think we all accept that women have some tendencies and men have others. When people see these tendencies (many of which could be socially constructed, for all we know), look for a biological basis for it, and then try to draw large social or spiritual conclusions from it, they are treating it as an inherent trait, rather than one of many possible outcomes.

I agree that most people (here, at least) definitely approve of equal legal rights for women, etc., but I don't know how often people consider that some of the more innocuous stereotypes can leak out and inform how people act and think in the rest of the world.

Side note: Based on the ratio of my pointer to middle fingers, I have a fair amount of testosterone for a lady. Maybe this can get me out of laundry duty... ;)

Jordan, now I'm a bit lost.
If I shouldn't believe in what I read... meaning: holy book, scientific books.. then, what should I believe in? Oprah?

this is contradictory ..

If I should only believe in what I see (if you meant it that way), then we'll go back to the point that the earth is not round...

-

"How does fact that women tend to have less testosterone running through their system translate to the argument that they are somehow more fitted to washing their husbands' socks?"

lol.. that' inexplicable..
maybe, and I'm saying maybe, since mothers are nurturers and care takers.. then they are responsible for that? :p

So let me just state that I was discussing this topic with my mom and she said that people use to say, "Be barefoot and pregnant and stay in the kitchen" to women.

First off, I didnt know that was said, I'm 21, so looks like I took a part of that sentence and NOW I can see how it comes across as bad. My apologies to anyone who is offended.

But you guys keep bringing up womens rights and what not and act like my statement means I don't appreciate the people who fought hard to give us our rights, this has nothing to do with it....

My stating that women should shut the f up and stay in the kitchen did NOT mean what it use to back in the day, I was born in the 90's ya'll, just like some of you don't know the "new lingo" I dont know the old....What I meant was, its an example of what I wish women would do as wives.

Like I keep saying, "submit", that means in more than one way than just cook. That means with sex, that means with supporting his decisions, that means a LOT..I used the kitchen as an example.

I think I used it as an example because i've witnessed that SO much as a main thing...I watch women talk so rough just over the phone with their mate or in person yelling at them about supper or get your own food, or why cant you make it??....I'm sorry, if thats how you speak to your mate have at it, but in MY opinion I believe that is part of a wifely duty. Cook your families meal...Does that mean he cant cook you a meal or two? No, like I said my dad is a great grill master I love when he cooks instead of my mom sometimes. I'm just saying....

We have rights now. Yes. Thank God for that. And thanks to those women who fought hard for it!...but with my belief, we do have duties, as well as the male does to us. I think women complain and nag WAY to much...and when I say women, do I mean ALL of you? No...there are too many people in this world for me to bundle it all down to ALL....but I witness sooo many women who just complain and nag...well it was your choice to be in a relationship, your choice to be a wife, to be a mother...so yes when I say shut up, literally I mean that....Just as I would say that to a male if he complained about have to love his women, pamper her, take care of his house as well. You should know what you're signing up for when you're getting married. If my beliefs don't work for you all, so be it. Like I keep stating, thankfully we all have a right to live how we want!

Also, just because I say I "Wish" more women would do it, is not be telling you all you SHOULD do it. I just wish I saw it more thats all.

No Abed. It just appears that you don't always use your better judgement. I know you're a smart fellow but it seems like your facts rule your brain.

I'm sorry to just take one little bit out of that long post, but I'm on my way off, so just a quick question:

Why would you ever have to "submit" to sex? If you want to have sex, that's not really submission... is it? If you don't want to have sex, then you should never have to have sex. It sounds worrisome to me, but maybe there's an aspect of the terminology that I'm not getting.