The man rules

"but when I'm told that I should defer to a man because he's a man"

That's not what I mean at all, you definitely shouldn't. The point of submitting to your husband is 1. it's your husband and he has needs you can meet to make him flourish or drown. 2. Submit doesn't mean defer to him, be his slave, or be less than him.. but to respect him.

People (not you Sib) who quote part of the bible without knowing the other part of it that melds together is why people get so confused. It says that your wife should stand beside you, not behind you, to not allow her to be in any position but by your side.. Pair that with "Husbands love your wives and wives submit (respect) your husbands"... it makes more sense. It's about loving each other the way they need (because of what they usually lack). Again.. usually, typically, this isn't the mold for every human being out there :)

Chelsey you're using submit in a really confusing way lol

Oh, I know you aren't telling me that... but I (and others) HAVE been told to defer, in a very clear way.

I'm fine with respect, (it is great!) but I don't know if everyone interprets submission in that way. It seems like a pretty modern interpretation of the term.

I would agree more with advice along the lines of, "husbands and wives, love and respect each other."
I do like the bit about standing side by side :)

Chelsey, I was nodding along with your post until about halfway through, then I was horrified all over again. Are there no women whom you consider rational, loving & fair AND who have modern, liberal values? It's like you think the 2 sides can't go hand in hand.

Well I would tell those people to shove it, then lol.

That's the confusing part -- I've read over and over (and over) and taken tons of classes on marriage/love and respect in the bible (part of the premarital counseling) and thats how my church and all the tools they use (programs/booklets etc.. we used Emerson Eggerich Love and Respect and Building Blocks) define submission/submit.

Jane, if you read some of the crap on Chelsey's facebook, I think you'd understand why she's saying what she does.. lol. She sends me stuff that people post that openly and publicly bitch about their men, how awful they are, what a cheater they are (then leave?), and everything they do wrong... or who cheat on their men and then turn around and wonder why they can't find a good man, one who won't leave them. Facebook is full of griping about spouses and it's sad. You shouldn't air your dirty laundry, ick.

I'm not sticking up for her either, I know that's coming from someone somewhere lol. Just my opinion. I've been away a while, I haven't gotten to do this :D

I think that's cool. It shows that the church can evolve, I think. I'm glad that they would teach mutual respect and care.

Incidentally, there are several websites out there that list every verse in which Jesus talked to or about women. It's kind of fun to have a look. I think lots of churches got their ideas on marriage from people like Paul, rather than the Big Man himself.

By the way, welcome back Britt. : ) We missed you.

^^ exactly. I swear I'm surrounded by these women everywhere. My mom, best friends, and Britt have the same view as me...everyone else I know, literally about everyone have shitty relationships just as Britt described. Those are the women I'm telling to shut up and be a wife as you agreed to on your wedding day.

My church is VERY modern. My pastor wears a Hawaiian shirt every Sunday, talks about fishing/hunting/Iphone apps... one Sunday he mentioned poop. Haha it's not like a normal southern Baptist church.

I was raised Seventh Day Adventist, and they're all old testament. My church now is nondenominational and they're new testament. All about loving and helping each other.

Missed you too, Sib, though I stalked you on FB ;)

That's true, but Facebook isn't real life, obviously. THE ONLY REALITY IS PnQ!

Alright, I'm blathering. I'm actually taking off, for real this time. I just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone for participating in this thread without even biting each other's heads off. There have been disagreements, but they've generally related to the topic, not to personal things. I think we've talked longer and more fruitfully than if we would've all started out sniping at each other.

Parting thoughts:
1. Airing dirty laundry on facebook is always unclassy.
2. I'm glad to have some women in my life who are strong and thoughtful, and inhabit various ranges of the political spectrum.
3. I'm hungry.

Hasn't this been nice?

Hippiegirl OUT

Ladies, you type too fast

Nice thread to read.

my views, woman and man are different yet they become the same one when they get married.

If you have no respect for yourself, I hardly doubt you'll have it for your partner.

Healthy points of view:

Biblical preachings are well thought of, moral, but still mythical.

Biological facts are scientific and true, not mythical, but don't determine the personality of a man or a woman entirely.

Social and gender roles are near completely switchable, but culture and tradition dictate them heavily....hence our values today are heavily influenced by our society, religion and education. No wonder we frequently disagree with gender role stereotypes.

Each person has to decide what is best for them, when they join as man & wife, to make things work for them.

I would not criticize anyone here for their beliefs in gender role play. Just have respect for each other.

I'm dying to know if Sib ever got food. Did you tell Tony to get in the kitchen and make you a sammich?

Tee hee.

I'm dying to know if your church offers a singles class, with a man whose about 6'1 looking for a future wifey who makes really good BLT's :) :)

I'd move to Oregon if you find me a keeper!

hehe

I'm all for alternative points of view, I'm loving the dialogue. If nothing else, at least we're moving forward by being able to talk about this stuff without being stoned to death or exiled from our families. Yay us!
Still, the biggest problem for me is when these gender roles are presented as normal or usual. A lot of posts have included the phrase "most women/men" and I find this hugely problematic. When you generalize in this way you fail to represent a significant portion of the population and that seriously frustrates me.

Then again, I guess I need to consider where I'm coming from. Right now I'm sitting with my house mates drinking cheap wine and talking about privilege, a concept that many of us don't see being taken seriously off campus. Meanwhile, a few buildings away, people dressed as mermaids and seapunk fantasies are attending our school's annual Queer Ball. Tomorrow I'm going to a talk on the intersections of asexuality and gender at the Queer Conference....
I'm genuinely curious as to how my lifestyle would be viewed by some of the people in this thread. Maybe it's good I'll never know. :)

Literally about everyone have shitty relationships just as Britt described. Those are the women I'm telling to shut up and be a wife as you agreed to on your wedding day.

^^^^

Maybe they agreed to be a wife to someone who turned out to be a shit?....

I've heard a lot of wedding vows over the years and none have said a wife should submit in anyway or form to their husband....whether it be in the kitchen or the bedroom....

Pneumonic or Narph?

Wasn't your first post on this thread against stereotypes and yet by referring to queers..albiet it queer as in gay or queer as in...simply queer (strange) haven't you done exactly that yourself?

"Literally about everyone have shitty relationships just as Britt described. Those are the women I'm telling to shut up and be a wife as you agreed to on your wedding day."

Tell me about it. Women never shut up. You should try spoon-feeding a spine to a woman. You'll hear about it for days.

Getting close to this thread being closed so....cup of tea anyone?...little starched pinny is on...lipstick is slicked...cookies in the oven!............wait...

My mulcher needs fixed...my plumbing is F***cked. (on septic tanks here) I have no water in my tank to water my plants...what should I do guys...paint my nails and have a meal on the table for my man coming home or..fix the bloody things that are my daily life problems...Hmmmm...

Use friggin or flippin or frolicking or whatever other f designation tickles your fancy, just don't drop the F bomb in future. It wasnt used offensively but its a slippery slope, so keep ot faamily friendly :)

This thread makes for interesting reading and debate, and has come a long way from humble beginnings! My summatuve opinion would be that people should live their relationships/gender roles (or lack thereof) as they see fit, but do it because it makes you happiest and not to the motive of being conformist/non-conformist with stereotypes.

Colm makes his debute as a mod!~....how lovely...I just read this with an irish accent and...it was so appealing..so very sexy and.. if it wasn't so...I would tell you to bugger off!!!!

So Sir..Mod God...your response should seal this one off LOL!

Rely on the Isish accent to come through when it counts! :)

100 posts up but feel free to continue or expand this discussion in a new thread!