For Darren

Darren, I want to publicly apologize for going off the mark on your thread.
Sincerely,
Dan

Well Donald...It was not my thread so I can't really answer for Darren but IMO...you have no need to apologise? What is happening in this world is shocking and, of course, we look for someone to blame...it's only natural. We grieve for people that we don't know when we hear about these things and look for ways to prevent another ocurrence that is all I think. Yes, we have different views about how that could possibly happen but...at least we talk about it openly on here instead of letting it become a scab that no bandaid can repair...that's a healthy option IMO?

Thanks, but there is no need
I have no problem with people having an opinion or sharing it.
I just felt that the conversations had strayed from what I had hoped to see and read
that was all.

Haha dear dan you did not bring your beloved rifles to this thread. You let go; you are soft. My guess is you are not a real Republican you are a liberal in your heart after all.

Dear Darren I did not have chance to express how appall I am about what those savages did to that poor solder in your country
These people are unequivocally mentally challenged. Their act did not generate anything but disgrace and hatred toward themselves and what supposedly they believe. This is totally different if you kill a solder in battlefield. For example, to those people who fought Americans invading their counties and now are captive in Guantanamo bay as war criminals. War criminal!!!!! That is utmost ludicrous . How could a man who throw grenade at solders who have occupied his land, be considered "a war criminal??", is beyond me. A "war prisoner" YES, but a "war criminal??" right beside Hitler, Goebbels, Pol pot, Saddam , Pinochet, or those who dropped nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?? The comparison is beyond a rational mind . I guess tyrants hold their own version of terminologies.

"War criminals"...I would dispute the usage of this term here. Those that were lodged in Guantanomo were labelled as suspected "TERRORISTS" , a designation reserved for those who defile all human values and respect for fellow human beings, worse than any war criminal.

"people who fought Americans invading their counties ..."

^I take objection to this as well. "Invasion/invading" is a term used when a ruler, dictator or country uses his/its forces to unlawfully invade another country or territory. In the case of Afghanistan, the truth is well summarized in a West Point Obama speech quoted here:

"We did not ask for this fight. On September 11, 2001, nineteen men hijacked four airplanes and used them to murder nearly 3,000 people. They struck at our military and economic nerve centers. They took the lives of innocent men, women and children without regard to their faith or race or station. . . . As we know, these men belonged to Al Qaeda - a group of extremists who have distorted and defiled Islam. . . . "

The 19 terrorist who attacked the US in its own homeland, were RELIGIOUSLY motivated, and directed by Al Queda under the leadership of bin Laden, the mastermind behind them...would you care to deny them? They were not insane, nor was the person who killed the British soldier in civilian clothes...a comparison that cannot be ignored or buried under the carpet.

So, the justification for the so called "invasion" by Americans, defending their own homeland under seige by MURDERERS under a religious banner was undeniably well justified.
Here is a simplification-
1. The 9/11 attacks were carried out by 19 Muslim members of al-Qaeda. But, there were approximately 4-5000 or more similar hiding away in Afghanistan and many more being trained to cause similar attacks under the auspices of the Taliban (don't forget that the US Intelligence under Clinton had already identified this...in fact Clinton authorized a ship based Cruise missile attack on Bin Laden's camp a few years before, after the attack on US embassies in Africa and a an attack on a US naval ship. Unfortunately, the missiles missed the target).

2. The 9/11 attacks had been authorized by the founder of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, who was in Afghanistan.

3. The US invasion of Afghanistan was necessary because the Taliban, which was in control of Afghanistan, refused to turn Bin Laden over to US authorities.

#3 is what most people forget.

"These people are unequivocally mentally challenged" ...I would say the British attacker and the 9/11 attackers draw very good parallels...they were "not insane or mentally challenged", but just using "radical" preachings/interpretation of Islam, which many Muslims tend to quickly distance themselves and point fingers on the civilized world...instead of recognizing the evil within and making all attempts to root it out to preserve the sanctity of their religious teachings.

Sorry, I held back, but when history is distorted, I have little choice but to defend the facts.

Guantanomo was not a "war prison" harboring war criminals fighting for a country. It was a place to temporarily house suspected dangerous terrorists, to interrogate and gather intelligence on their networks to prevent further 9/11 like attacks all over the World. Yes, there may be excesses in interrogation or some innocents in Guantanamo, but in large part, it too was well justified given the complexities of the US Justice system. The remaining inmates (80 or so) still in it are either too dangerous to be released, or the countries to which they belong do not want them, or other reasons that remain classified.

I am not sure who is being labelled "tyrants"...the US is governed by its constitution, not tyrants.

For the people living in US history is a subjective subject. All the people know about history is through media, Hollywood movies, or in this case internet surfing. It is so easy to fake a reason for this (kept on purpose in dark) crowd, taking them to a state of hysteria and frenzy and sending them to invade countries such as Iraq, and spending billion and billion dollars of American money for starting a Sunni and Shia war in Muslim territories.
Your argument about why America attacked Afghanistan is as a result of discordant and ineffective thinking, that was not the subject of my debate: Bin Laden was a terrorist no doubt.I do not debate that. My argument was, invading another country for over 10 years. Killing 10s of thousand of their citizens for revenge might be justified for a Yankee but not for a citizen of Afghanistan. What if the shoe was on the other foot?? If you haven't gone totally numb in your objectivity, what would you do if People of for example Chili (in which American financed a coup in their land and killed over 30 thousand of their citizens. ~Guess what?? exactly at September 11~1972), or Vietnam( which Americans drop 10 time more bomb on their tiny tiny country than was used in entire world war two), Japan ( for dropping two nuclear bomb on them and killing 200 thousand at once and millions in the years to come from the effect of nuclear ashes) Or Iran (for the coup in 1954 for the crime of nationalizing their own oil resources from American and British companies) Iraq (for invading their country over, in falls pretense and lies), attack America?? Right then when America was in the situation that constitution was written, wouldn't you pick up a gun and fight against the invaders?? Even their reason of attack was as, or even 10 times more, legitimate than American's in Afghanistan?? Then wouldn't it be utterly ridicules to torture you and trialing you in some secluded island in nowhere as a war criminal, or as you said it, as terrorist~ that according to your logic is worst than war criminals?????~ You see, this statement by itself proves that even though you seem calmed, you are so emotional about the subject beyond any justification: A 15 years old emotional kid according to you is worse than "Adolf Hitler" himself!!

I do not go any farther to make it more readable I suggest you to do the same,
but please don't hold back!!

I love the irony. I am one of the first to moan about preaching hate and religious debates.....so what do we have here? And in my name. Arrghh

Totally blown away by your arguments Mr. RM! They remind me of a musical I recently saw, a Farcical. Also, reminds me of how the Iranians hated the Oscar award winning film "Argo" and promised to produce their own counter to it. My last recall, you were claiming to be in Iran on your profile, now you are back in Canada our neighbor...perhaps your anti-American stance is the influence of the hardline clerics of your country of birth (Iran) who love to spread their anti-American propaganda.

All I did was correct the usage of your terms (war criminals, invasion, and mentally challenged and give you the reason what was the function of Guantanamo) and their implied anti-American/Western stance. Instead, I get a whole can of worms to reply to, which however tempted I am going to hold my reins in.

Glad to know your views and what you really represent. The Iranian community here in the US (the largest outside Iran) does not share your views in large part. They do understand what Freedom means. :)

Dear Darren: I do respect your call for calm. You remind me of the famous idiom linked to this picture:

http://www.thethreemonkeys.com/

And I do respect your Buddhistic values. But, do you wish to really control those who make outrageous claims and statements? and those who every once in a while come out to defend the blemish on a country which honors human values over religion and mis-propaganda?
Perhaps, you may also wish to join me in defending "freedom and human values" in open debates rather than follow the idiom above.

First Darren we are not having a religious debate here I am Christian by the way. Second there is no hate I love America and Americans regardless of what some of the thing, some of their governments have done. And do not worry about your name, any grain of sanity could notice you are not a part of this debate.
By the way what happened to the : "I have no problem with people having an opinion or sharing it."
Do not let the seriousness of this debate scare you. I believe in unadulterated truth and daringness of uttering it.

Guys feel free to carry on, I was just pointing out that the thread is in my name....

not sure what to say about the picture....

Dear ALS, Defending freedom?? what about freedom of speech? What about freedom of telling the truth before being accused or prosecuted??
Now that you can not deny the factuality of anything I said, the simple truth that is so obvious but no one dares to speak of, you put me in box:: ""Iran"" This is how you turn debate to personal attack. I am prosecuted in Iran and can not return to my county for decades. Me and my family are scattered all over the world from France, Germany to England, US and Canada. I shouldn't be needing to give these information if it was not because of your inability to come out of your comfort zoom by putting your opponent in some box in order to point at them and say look at him he is an Iranian, a public enemy don't listen to him he talk evil (because of your inability to answer.)
Yes the evil truth!! we are fire worshipers.
What I represent?? I am merely expressing unadulterated facts that have been hidden from American eyes. not the Muslim facts, for I am Christian, not communist, because I believe in God. There is no box that you could put me in, not Iranian because I am anti Islamic republic, anti Hezbollah of Iran. I witness what religious fanaticism could do to the man's mind~ any fanaticism whether religious or national or racial and political~
The fanaticism is what we are talking about. Fanaticism which claims that it was not some crazy cuckoos who killed the British solder, it is the Muslim mentality. This approach is dangerous. If you think you are in war with Islam, what are you going to do? This nation is more than one third of the earth population. Genocide?? It would not work buddy. Gestapo already tried it once on much smaller nation , they killed 6 million innocent Jews but not only they could not get rid of them , they made them, as small as they are, one of the strongest power in the world. Good lock on that.

Now that there are nothing you could do with my outrageous facts, now that you have no boxes, why not take a good look at the facts instead, why not starting the journey of the self-discovery now instead of living in denial my dear American.

"If you think you are in war with Islam"

^ Incorrect. Your misperception. I grew up with Muslim friends, still have many, amongst many other religions. But, what I see today, is not a religion at war, but bigots claiming that religion directs them to the crimes they commit. Before Bin Laden, it was rare to find the use of the term "terrorists" outside the Palestinian-Israel sector. Today, its is a worldwide maladie, thanks to him and his cult of radical Islamists.

Fanaticism...agree with.
Fire worship...traditional in the country I grew up.

Self discovery...already have. :) My profile says enough.

"Defending freedom?? "...sure, I will each time, when people go off the mark and throw wild theories or accusations on a great nation and its policies (in most part), which I have to come to admire.

So RM, why are you picking on me personally (such as "internet historian" or some other similar CRAP - also see a previous thread, when all I am trying to is straighten out some misunderstood facts. If we are not in any disagreement on most other topics above, let this pointless debate rest.
------------------
Darren: That picture represents what the WISEST of the WISE follow. Sat on my school desk for many years, was the winning slogan of M. K. Gandhi in his entire life, and influenced many others. Gift a mini-replica to your children and ask them to put them on their desk when they are becoming teens, and see what influence it has on them. It is indeed a compliment to you :)

Thanks ALS

ALS and RM...how did you get into your place of residence you are in now?...just curious...as I migrant myself it took probably two years for my paperwork to be processed so...I'm really curious....it also cost me a lot of money?

Dear I do not pick on you I have love and all the respect for you and your believes that happens to be different to mine sometimes. Using Internet is not shameful and crap.
I am not anti American I like America; amazing things I saw in united stat; the magic, the truth that lives midst of all these slimes and bullies of political powers over greed and control . America is a land of great diversity. I learn most of my Zarathustrian ethics from American movies. As Gorge Colony mentioned "there is a great bond between true Iranians and true Americans" things that are invisible to the regular eyes.
I am also wholeheartedly pro natives Americans.
I worship the truth, truth is fire and fire is hot, it burns. People from different nature should use precautions when they come near fire. Even if they grew in the "similar tradition."

:: " Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson--That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness."

This is the "baptism of the fire" my friend and if your heart is set upon the means of this world and honor of the man and pride of nation, race, or..., You are not connected and fire would burn you. burn you where you are not able to face unadulterated facts.
You say you have enough self discovery, that in itself shows otherwise. A zen master said: "knowing other is knowledge, knowing yourself is enlightenment." We even haven't started that path yet.
You where so outraged from my facts. But you could not deny them. You know that America dropped nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nakazaki, the rate of death is in the internet you could check them out. You know it was under a falls pretense they attacked Iraq they do not even deny it.You know that America dropped 10 times bombs that was used in world-war ll on the tiny Vietnam why are you surprised? Where is humanity and compassion in all this?? So what is wrong, why are you blown away with hearing the facts??
No matter how we turn the truth is always there we can not change what happened; we could only redeem ourselves but we could not conceal the past forever specially from our conscience.

Hellon: I think I have answered the qn you ask before...in the Boston thread. In a nutshell, I did not come here as a refugee or on a relative visa or a H-1, but as a student (J-1) and since my mom din't want me back (she actually kicked me out!), some people at work thought I could be of more help to them here :) I had no desire to stay here myself.

RM: You know you have much contradiction in your statements...in one breath you put up anti-American sentiments, and in the same breath you say you love America. I am perplexed.
Re: Your other allegations about America's involvement in the Vietnam war and Hiroshima Nagasaki bombings, I wasn't born then (WWII) and at the end of Vietnam war, I was still in grade school, and had lot of sympathies for all who died. The war was started by the Communists, not the Americans as you know, who were pulled in to it because of the French defeat and the threat of growing influence of Communism in the IndoChina and other world sectors. What is the point of debating such pointless tragedies, which could have both been entirely avoided. Have you ever been to the Vietnam memorial in DC...tell me?

I came here years ago dear Hellon and took me 6 years to get my landed,

ALS, What you see as contradictions is merely independence. Independence from the boxes they made for our thoughts. The boxes of stereotypes and cliche's of parties and political (racial _ religious) prisons of thoughts. I do not let them decide what I think and how I feel , my morals my values, and even to whom I can be compassionate.
So that makes it okay if nuclear attack killed hundred thousand of "Japs" and radiated them for the generation to come, millions with blood disorder, genetic distortion, cancers, if they happened before you born?? Is it okay if Nazis killed 20million Russian and 6 million Jews, and so many others when we were not born? What an abstracted conscience!! Nations must behave from the time we came to this world
What are you saying now?? It was Vietnam who attacked united state? Is that why they became the farmstead for grape bombs and Napalms' cultivation (bombs which were declared illegal after 1980 in united nation and using them in the arias with civilians concentrations was declared as war crime ~ what American vastly did in Vietnam in 70s and 60s). Are you saying they asked for it because they were communist? Or no, how dare them to fight against France the country that colonialized them!! Is that it? Is that why you believe in the constitution of U.S.A. and Declaration of independence from Great Britain colonialism?? Who contradict himself now??

"A Headsman was weeping hard because he came to fall in love with a little canary" A Shamloo.
Like we who feel compassionate in the confine of our home, feel so charitable, have seminars of sentiment to other sentient beings, sing our hymns, feel godly, but out of our home with tanks cross over the body of different breeds of innocents, foreign to us.

^Curious RM, do you have American Citizenship? or Canadian or both. I cannot proceed further unless you answer this qn.

If you are a US Citizen as well, would you serve in the US military if the nation called upon you to protect and serve?

Did you ask these questions about history to your US or Canadian history teacher, or did you attend highschool somewhere else? From your statements, it is hard to believe that your history education was in the US, Canada, UK or the Democratic world.

Next question, what is your real agenda in this thread? What is it that you wish to prove...that Americans are aggressors and invaders everywhere? They have a culture of brutality, and capitalism and use guns and bombs to prove their might? It already seems to me that you have assumed that they started or propagated the Vietnam War? attacked Japan first in WW II, or that they were the "invaders" in Afghanistan/Iraq? Is that what you really believe? If a war is forced upon a Peace loving nation, do you think that one can contain the casualties or the means used to contain/win the war.

I read your thoughts very well...from your line of discussion...that you have earned the right to criticize your own country and its policymakers (US or Canada) because you live here in shelter , prosperity and enjoy freedom. I am curious on the status of yur entry here - was it as a refugee from Iran after the revolution? If so, tell me what is it that really bothers you about the US and its policies for you to reinterpret US history?

I am quite a bit bemused by your understanding/research of the US history of involvement in each of these conflicts. It seems to be so skewed in one direction that you put "all the blame" on the US Presidents/Congress/people and its policies. How unfair? and you say you live on US or Canadian soil, work and benefit by its "open" policies, fairness and tolerance for all people regardless of their origin.

A war is never planned, justified or moral. Have you ever considered the American point of view of why it got drawn in to any of these wars? I did define the term invasion and invader above. Can you point out in any one instance where the US was an invader or started the conflict?

It seems you love Communist philosophy, do you? Would you like to see the world under an umbrella of Communism, Fascism, or religious persecution?
Also, you seem to call America as an "invader" and the Guantanomo bay prisoners as "war criminals"...I am amused.

Would you care to answer ^ these questions please first?

For every one else who really wanted to understand the history behind the American involvement of the Vietnam war, here is a link to the recorded history in a nutshell (from British high schoolers history notes). Definitely educational and interesting-

http://www.schoolhistory.co.uk/gcselinks/britishworld/vietnam/getinvolved.pdf

Additional links below will explain in greater reasons behind America's involvement in the Vietnam war, which I am sure you all learned in your high school World/American/British history textbooks:

http://www.sparknotes.com/history/american/vietnamwar/section3.rhtml
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/vietnam/tp/vietnam-war.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

RM: I did not conduct the war, serve in it or write its history. So I have no right to criticize anyone, least of all the brave Americans who died in this pointless war (in this case against the spread of communism, an evil no different than Fascism). It would be an insult to every American who died in defending freedom (from spread of communism) during the Cold War.

What is the need, the burn to make this personal? Why don't you talk to me as a free agent of the real free world? Why should I have an agenda in having discussion with you beside what I am saying??
I neither do nor need to answer any of those questions I am not in Guantanamo bay you know. You cannot function without those answers and those interrogations. The assembly line of your world of cliches and stereotyping would collapse if you do not immediately put me in one of those boxes. First from my profile when I put the name of Iran as my country you speculated that I have gone to Iran and were brain washed by the Iranian government.( paranoiac speculation) Now you are coming with the communist box.
Your whole utopia of the free world and democracy is based on constant affirmation of fabricated truth. Democracy means that any one is entitle to his/he opinion without being snooped or spooked.
Why instead of all those curiosities of who I am just deal with what I say !!
Your idea of democracy is what frightens me the most. if someone does not believe in your democracy ( your version of democracy ) is condemned , he/she has to be put outside in the box that already prepared for our minds.
Haha somehow like the Ahmadinejad that claims women are totally free in Islamic republic. Then when you pay attention you realize their freedom for women only entitles the kitchen territory and inventory of ingredients.

For you the facts are not facts if they are not implementation of the social hypnoses of the free world propaganda.
Discussing in such an environment is such a waste of time. You are not here for truth.
As you said it : you have finished the journey of your self discovery. You would go no farther.
I know how selective your attention is. You just read and respond to whatever matches with your frame of thought. I tested that before, I set a trap and you were he who fell right in. Months ago I started a post with an outrageous notion in the first sentence and with second one I totally dismissed it and ridiculed the first one. And you did not bother to read the goddam next one. The first glance of the first sentence was enough for you to go on and on impugning the whole post which you did not bother to read: assuming the whole context based on glancing the first sentence, how deep !

Thank you for your personal views RM. Enjoyed the conversation and a chance to respond. You sidetracked my qns with your personal barrage, did you not?
An exercise in Expose.

I took this oath, when I was naturalized as a Citizen, which you may have taken too, looking squarely in the eyes of the INS officer. Each time I read it I am reminded that I am an humble immigrant, not a privileged "born Citizen" (who do not take this oath). I also find it interesting that a lot of people who have taken this oath, coming in to this country to start a new life, just do an about turn.

Oath

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

^Does it remind you of your personal obligations to the country that gave you shelter? Is it really right of you to call America the "invader" in the exercise of your "free speech" using unfortunate incidents in its history to bring it down without giving a bipartisan balanced view?

That is all nice and dandy but Nationalism is a pitfall that I do not fall. Humanism is my aria of interest. God does not only bless America. God blesses all the good people in the world whether in Kabul or Laguna Niguel. Rich or poor, Muslim or Christian or communist. Whether Palestinian or Israeli. There are no chosen ones unless by hard work of righteousness.
"I hereby declare, on oath that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of ""Goodness"" against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will never bear arms unless to defend my family and innocents against immediate danger."

My obligation is to my conscience if they send me to Vietnam, like Mohammad Ali I would decline and say::
"Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs?"

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/usa-war-on-terror/594-muhammad-alis-no-to-the-vietnam-war-is-our-history-too

The matrix of social orders forces us to stay in confine of a specific platform.
The system is programed to hold people in by fear, orders and affirmation. The only way one soul could break through the cocoon of this matrix (like the movie) is by taking the red pill, the forbidden apple of thought, by denying the boxes that they put our thoughts in. By seeing what is obvious but they tell you otherwise, by hearing what you are not suppose to hear, like by truly listening to the news that tell you the American reason for bombing Japan was the retaliation for Japs attack to Pearl Harbor few yeas earlier. But you do the mat:: 2,402 Americans were killed and 1,282 wounded, versos 90,000-166,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000-80,000 in Nagasaki. and million of side affect in years to com. Anyone with an iota of conscience would see right away something is mathematically wrong here. But people under social hypnosis would not bother. They like you, would say they got what they deserved. They worship the truth (fire) when is convenient and easy, they do not go against the flow, because truth is not truly their nature.
It is how distorted is this nationalism of yours in compare with my humanism.
It is about the Canary I said before!!

This is the list of my favorite books. It might help you to find a proper box for me::

Avesta by Zarathustra
Bible
10 volume of the Carlos Castaneda
Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield
The Republic by Plato
Poetics by Aristotle
Tibetan Book of the Dead
Qur'an
Nahjolbalaghe prophet Ali
Das Capital by Karl Marx
The Origin of Government and Family by Friedrich Engels.
The Origin of Species by Darwin
The book of Mormon
Doctrine and Covenants by LDS
Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Nietzsche,
Phenomenology of Spirit by Hegel

That's quite an intimidating oath ALS and one I'd probably have some problems with. This is the oath/pledge I took to become an Australian. There are two choices as you can see...one mentions god the other doesn't...

Pledge 1

From this time forward, under God,
I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
whose democratic beliefs I share,
whose rights and liberties I respect, and
whose laws I will uphold and obey.

Pledge 2

From this time forward
I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
whose democratic beliefs I share,
whose rights and liberties I respect, and
whose laws I will uphold and obey.

Both short and sweet...neither ask for a person to renounce their birth country...they don't even ask you to submit any previous passports/papers you may have...although, when my British passport expired I never renewed it...it's still an option I have though...do you?

Haha I like my pledge better

The above books no matter how seemingly apposite they all have partial of the truth. like the ELEPHANT of Rumi.
Just fools ((us)) would think that only their fingers is directing at the moon simply everyone in the eyes of others is (seems) off angle. This is the nature of our vision, our entrapment in the confine of individuality and self. Everyone has his her version of angle, in which all of them indicates the same thing after all, but they do not see that. They, in real meaning, instead of pointing at the direction, are point at themselves, me, me me, center of the world. because the self ( separation) tells them it is only their own finger that is right: I am only right , my religion only is from god, (I am the last prophet, the son of God, the chosen one, the hegemony of proletarian the Zion ). So to prove only their index is right, they go to crusade against each other. They totally forget the moon. Like for the sake of the House of God ( Jerusalem ) the place of God, worship and kindness, over thousand years, religions slaughtered one another and the families . For saying it is my finger that is rightfully pointing at the moon. they massacre each other and God too.
In the Name of The Christ that was not even ready to defend himself fearing of hurting those who come to crucify him, they go to crusade in bloodshed of men, women, and their children.

RM....what was your pledge....I can't find it here?

The post after his pledge

"I hereby declare, on oath that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of ""Goodness"" against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will never bear arms unless to defend my family and innocents against immediate danger."

Do you mean this part...sorry you have no quotes there so...I'm not sure?

Humanism is my aria of interest. God does not only bless America. God blesses all the good people in the world whether in Kabul or Laguna Niguel. Rich or poor, Muslim or Christian or communist. Whether Palestinian or Israeli. There are no chosen ones unless by hard work of righteousness

Sorry...thanks for pasting what you really meant...I was a little confused haha!!!

I like how you say that god is not selective but...you also said you are interested in humanism and I know they do not believe in god so to have this in the same paragraph just confused me for a moment..small brain syndrome haha!!!

I had a lovely service by a humanist when my mother passed...I liked some of their thinkings and it was more what I knew I DIDN'T want for her final goodbye back then. I did respect her wishes and also had a catholic service but....I won't even share the comparisons on here...

My apologies to all re my possible typos here....I have false nails on which I'm still coming to terms with :)

There is no need to apologies dear Hellon.
Your poetry speaks highly of your intelligence

These are the borders that they draw, like in between humanism and God. I am not obliged to consign.
I do not believe in god who tells me kill for the god sake. Invade and cultivate others countries with Napalms for the sake of democracy. Or any other oxymoron like these.
God bless America I do not care. God bless all the good people whether in or out of America, I believe!

"Both short and sweet...neither ask for a person to renounce their birth country..."

Hellon, isn't Australia still under the monarchy, a constituent of the Commonwealth, with Queen Elizabeth II of britain (called Regina in Australia) the legal head of State and represented by the Governor General, and run by a Westminster style of Parliament and Prime Minister/cabinet?
That would explain why you do not have to renounce allegiance to your country of birth (U.K.).

The US oath specifically requires you to renounce allegiance to another State or country, to ensure you are not an infidel. There is no place for iinfidels, according to the constitution. However, the requirement to bear arms has been relaxed after a challenge in the Court (case of Girouard v. U.S. (328 U.S. 61). The Court ruled that the oath of allegiance did not imply a promise to bear arms. A refusal to bear arms was justified on the basis of religious training and beliefs.
Therefore, under current law, an applicant opposed to bearing arms or performing noncombatant service because of his or her religious training and beliefs is exempt from taking the full oath of allegiance.
^ This they failed to disclose to me when I took oath, as my beliefs will prohibit me from picking up arms to kill anyone. Anyway it doesn't matter, if required I can serve in a different capacity.

Interestingly, RM since you cannot take your own oath and be a Citizen, it appears that you may have taken the actual oath for "convenience", could be classified as "treason"! ha

So...you do believe in a god of some sort right?..I do note that you capitalized the word eg?

Humanists..from what I remember being told and at the time (and reading some) believe we are born from the earth and will go back there? Something to do with the tree of life and we all come from that tree..we are twigs who grow? Watched a documentary by David Attenborough years ago...something to do with Darwin's theory...could goolge it I guess but this is straight off the cuff so I could be totally wrong :)

ALS... you are correct but this was not a one on one thing....Australia tends to have a 'mass' citizenship day...maybe 100/200 people and they are not all from commonwealth countries...let me assure you of that.... yet we all take the same oath.

*

I do believe there is now a basic engish language test you have to pass now which..IMO..is fair enough...

And this is the reason
in the congested prison,
everything spacious and open minded
is treason

dear Hellon I have to watch that

RM..yu should watch it...recommend you do actually..look it up...it may even be published really not sure but....Attenborough is one of MY favourite authors :)

ALS...answered your commonwealth query further up in case you missed it?

Therefore, under current law, an applicant opposed to bearing arms or performing noncombatant service because of his or her religious training and beliefs is exempt from taking the full oath of allegiance.
^ This they failed to disclose to me when I took oath, as my beliefs will prohibit me from picking up arms to kill anyone. Anyway it doesn't matter, if required I can serve in a different capacity.

What do you mean..it wasn't disclosed? It wasn't in print? or you didn't read it? You have signed up to somehing you obviously don't agree with? If it's been added since you took your oath would you not want to question it now?

I'm not meaning to be nasty but..when you sign up for such things...you also sign up for your family I believe and...I know you have a young son so...

Hellon thanks for confirming that Australia is till under the "Crown" like Canada.

RM: "I do not believe in god who tells me kill for the god sake."
^ That is not in the oath of allegiance. Perhaps read again. The God reference is to you, if you "lie," when taking the oath.

"God bless America I do not care. "
^ Nor is this in the oath. Perhaps you are mixing up Irving Berlin's 1918 patriotic song "God Bless America".

Anyway, I would not want my back to be watched in a war scenario (if ever called upon) by someone who cannot pledge complete allegiance to the oath/country.

I'd like you to answer my other question ALS?

reiterating...

What do you mean..it wasn't disclosed? It wasn't in print? or you didn't read it? You have signed up to somehing you obviously don't agree with? If it's been added since you took your oath would you not want to question it now?

I am not sure when I took the oath that the option to use a modified oath to specifically exclude bearing of arms (if not permitted by your religion or belief) was in place. May be I took the modified version, but frankly I don't remember. It was so long ago...and my kid wan't born then (would not apply to him as he is a born citizen). I don't need to question it as the oath is a guide to what is required to take up Citizenship, and the court ruling protects people who wish not to bear arms because of the reasons cited. To me, as I am not religious or follow any religion to the line, only spiritual (believe in God or a supreme being, not his messengers), it would be a relative thing.

I was brought up with the only 'stupid'question is the one you never asked so...I will always be asking questions no matter how stupid they may appear ...if 'I'm not sure ' I will most definately ask...

I was not talking to you I was talking to Hellon. you again are back to your habit of assuming instead of reading. and then call on the other mixed up. Hallelujah
Dear we are going off topic and getting personal I did not want that to happen. I just were trying to have a mature discussion with you. but if you now feel some discomfort towards me is not mature any more and we should stop. until the sores are gone.

if you go to the colonial war be sure that I would not be watching your back. I do not like war and weapon all together. I am not a gun worshiper Yankee you know. If It was up to me I would dis arm all the governments and give enough weapons to the police to fight against crime. I would put those who produce weapon behind bares where they belong.