For Darren

Hellon: And if I can answer, I will be more than glad to. I am not a know all, but use due judgement and research when trying to answer or in case of RM, cross-examine with a fine tooth comb his line of reasoning, just like Larry would in court. :)
Night night for now! Enjoyed.

Ding! Ding! round whatever? Leaving you guys to it but...I don't see Larry's name in this thread so why bring him in now?

People should not be judged..I know this is a very weak statement...especially on the internet but..when I have a disagreement with anyone on here Im not judging you personallly...it's possible that I just don't agree with your opinion...ok?

RM in a free society yes there are some who have been brainwashed. Most however have been brainwashed by elite educators. Colleges today produce more misinformed ignorant children. Your analyses of the reason we bombed Japan is so far off base it becomes a head shaker. And let me say most of what you have been preaching is too off the chart for truths.
Japan started a war in Asia by first unprovoked invasion of Manchuria. Slaughtering any and all opposition and its women and children indiscriminately. Once goal accomplished moved into china for its second phase slaugthering thousands if not millions with its onslaught of murdering. Defenseless peoples shot in the streets babies slammed to the ground young and old men with shots to the head. Peoples live bodies being medically experimented on. Sworded, slashed, shot or burned. After they got a hold on China they made their move into south East Asia. Indo china and then on to the Philippines. The mistake they made however was their thought that U.S. complete navy was in Pearl Harbor. After their attack on Pearl Harbor we declared war. (had to) from that day forth our goal was to rid th world along with allies to this goal. Thousand upon thousands of brave fighters died in that endeavor. When we finally pushed Japan back into there homeland they still refused to surrender. Their homeland plans were in place to be a whole sale defense system which included booby trapping there citizens. All of which was determined could by estimates kill up to a million troops. It was then decided to use th a-bomb on major war supply cities. By the way atomic bomb not nuclear big difference. Japan brought havoc and death to its people by their own hands...no one else's.

We could if you want to discuss the whys and answer to the questions instead of sorting out choosing to Vietnam. Would be long and drawn out though but...

we are together in agreement for your pledge. You keep reading your books and we The U.S. will keep doing the heavy work to see it through to an end.

Dear dan you are not the one to confess to any wrong doing of Americans. You are the person who's saying we have to turn our kindergartens to battlefield.
Saying Japs "brought havoc and death to its people by their hands." is sad sad thing to say brings tear to my eyes, that how insensitive we as human race have become.....! Is like saying that Jews brought holocaust to themselves by their own hands. There is no genocide in the human history that those who committed it do not have some justification no matter how ridicules, for it. So I do not expect anything better from you guys.
There is a bestseller book "Obasan" that talks about what north American did to the poor people of Japan. I wept all through the book from the middle.
Thanks for the correction Atomic bob is correct.

If you sit at home and watch American movies you would think it was United State that won the ww2 but you can not be any more wrong. Except Canada that its participation in the war only included helping America to council its atomic bomb projects on account of Canadian people, and torturing its Japanese citizens to beyond any human measures, (insomuch that prim minister Pierre Trudeau had to Apologize to the people of Japan years after~ the apology that American have never given ~ karma!! ~). America had the least participation in the ww2. They come late and ... It was the Russia who defeated the German, by undertaking 20 million casualties, in compare to 300 thousand Americans.
There was no reason for America to drop the "Little Boy" and the "Fat Man" on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The army of Japan was already defeated by the Red army in Siberia, they were totally crashed. It was the mater of days before Japanese to surrender. That is why American rushed the atomic attack before it happen, to scare off Communists spreading in Europe. Even though shortly after, Russians got their own hands on Atomic bomb.
And that was the initiation of the cold war, the sizzling hot atomic attack.

It is so unfortunate to see one sided skewed narration of history in your eyes RM. What is your real purpose in revisiting the role of America in WW II, a human tragedy by itself of immense proportions.

How come your narration matches the communist versions of WWII. Do you own or read their propaganda so much that you forget to put out a balanced view.

"America had the least participation in the ww2. They come late and ... It was the Russia who defeated the German, by undertaking 20 million casualties, in compare to 300 thousand Americans"
"There was no reason for America to drop the "Little Boy" and the "Fat Man" on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The army of Japan was already defeated by the Red army in Siberia"

^ Is the source of this information coming straight from communist chronicles? Are you so fascinated by communist claims that you even forget how many Allied lives were lost in the war, in trying to make sure that the world is not engulfed by Fascism and Imperialism.

The information you supply does not take in to account the true hx of Japanese brutality that wreaked havoc in the Pacific sector of the world during WWII.

Germany and US were in neck to neck race to develop the A-bomb. Guess what would have happened if Hitler had the A-bomb first - he would have fried England and the major US cities. The decision to use the A-bomb was made after the realization that the Japanese were never going to surrender, but fight to death, each man and woman, such was their pride then. The atomic bombing, however unfortunate, was the only real reason for their surrender, despite what the communists may say, and saved many hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides.

The Japanese had no intention of giving up, despite devastating morale shaking firebombings of Tokyo in Feb-Mar 1945 by B-29 superfortresses (two B-29 incendiary raids over Tokyo. One of these raids killed about 125,000 people, the other nearly 100,000 in the fire that ensued after the bombings, a million were rendered homeless - a number far greater than the 80000 in Hiroshima and 45000 in Nagasaki by the A-bombs). Japanese were extremely proud people then, they would rather die , every last man & woman, than surrender. One of the main reasons cited by post war historians is the resilient spirit of the Japanese people which led to the sad decision to use A-bombs on 8th Aug, to force it in to surrender.

I am really horrified that as an American and Canadian, you give credit to the Communists for Japanese surrender. Please do not carry on this debate any further. The whole world is sad over the events and Americans being some of the most compassionate people in the world, were equally divided and saddened by it. No one was a winner in this tragedy.

Germany and US were in neck to neck race to develop the A-bomb. Guess what would have happened if Hitler had the A-bomb first - he would have fried England and the major US cities."

^^^^

Https://www.google.com.au/search?q=bombing+of+Clydebank&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=yYK1UfvZC8WViAe5qICwDA&ved=0CFIQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=775

^^^^^

Some pictures of the Clydebank Bombings which happens to be in Scotland NOT England. Both my parents served in WWII both were scottish....not english!

Exactly Hellon. The Japanese were no less brutal than the Germans.

Historian Chalmers Johnson has written:

"It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians (i.e. Soviet citizens); the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers--and, in the case of the Japanese, as (forced) prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not the Soviet Union) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; (by comparison) the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%."

TOTAL SLAUGHTERED BY THE AXIS (Germany, Japan, Italy, Hungary) - 6 + 20+ 30 = 56 MILLION innocents.

Where is your logic RM?

For you my dear there is no independent facts, I talked about boxes and I predicted what you are gong to do. Calling me communist?? Truth is not shopping cart that you pick up the only items that benefits your party and believes. You can not trim it to your liking. You have to deal with them whether you like them or not. In your entire long post you did not lay any fact but accusation . You just select the fact that confirms your utopia of the free world. In your free world even the facts are not free. I have no intention to give any credit to any one or undermine the role of any party because they are Communist or Zionist, or Muslim or even Fascist. Changing the facts, undermining them, are as the result of a system of brain washing that do not allow anything that disregard their own made believe reality, in.
Hard core facts.
Wikipedia:
Soviet union 22000,000 to 30,000,000
United state 418.000

I do not want to under mind United State's role in Second World War, 400 thousand is a great number. My objection was only to how we built our fantasy world by watching the Hollywood movies.
You are saying that because I am the citizen of United State or Canada, the free world! I have to over look the truth. Because the free world has given me shelter now I have no freedom to be truth full. I have to over look the fact because of the loyalty. Isn't this is what you are doing? I think being a true American, not like you, embraces being true to yourself and to the facts. If we say we "In God we trust" that means we do not believe in "lies" and deceits. It means we worship the truth. God is not a mask that we put on. Or is it? Like freedom and democracy.
You come from another country and now are extremely pro American I give that to you, but you are not a true American. I am.

Hahaha where you are, my logic, and any one's in that matter, is transparent.

This is like you!! Till few post ago you were saying why are we talking about ww2 you were not born then. Now you surf for half an hour in internet and all the sudden become the world first authority in the subject.
Like the time you were saying that the Connecticut shooter were suffering from Oedipus complex. Not knowing how self mocking this sound for those who know what that mean, in oppose to just picking it up from the internet.
Oedipus Complex is taken from the myth of Oedipus written by " Sophocles". The story is about a prince that kills his father and marries his own mother. Fraud suggested that all the male children have some hidden love for their mothers and hidden hatred towards their fathers, and call this complex after the Oedipus. So according to that complex a son kills the father. He would never shoot the mother in the face.

dear by throwing some big words without knowing the meaning you impress nobody but yourself.

The Wikipedia info you quoted is incomplete. You forgot to add Chinese deaths: 3,000,000 to 4,000,000.
Communists lost the most people, no doubt. They did not have the right means to defend themselves. They would have lost 10 x more if Germans had made the A-bomb first or if the US had not intervened and forced Germany and Japan in t surrender.
2.5% of the World's population (50-60 MILLION)was wiped out in WWII, thanks to Hitler and Imperial Japan, and all you can think of is how to fault the US for using A-bombs to stop the war.

Below is a link of Japan's atrocities in WW II, when you chided on my earlier statement about the Imperial Japanese cruelties in WW II, saying "There is a bestseller book "Obasan" that talks about what north American did to the poor people of Japan. I wept all through the book from the middle."
^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

It seems your only agenda in this thread is criticising America, other than trying to browbeat your fellow patriotic American. You started with Guantanomo bay, then Vietnam war and end up with WW II. I hope you never become a history teacher. Your sense of logic is heavily corrupted....all you see is how to show off your knowledge in the worst possible way, by trying to bring down your own country that gave you refuge.

I do not want to continue this pointless exercise. So best to stop, before you annoy a whole bunch of people from the "free world" with your twisted logic and unpatriotic speeches.

I don't have all day to sit around and answer you either.

Not me I got the summer off

"Communists lost the most people, no doubt. They did not have..."
are you listening to yourself this are not communists or Jews or Philistinian, these are people who die. Your mind is so occupied with the political boxes that you do not see the people no more. You have gone totally numb to the human surfing if it is not from you political side. The rest of the world's human suffering is just clitoral damage for you. This is very sad sad thing.
Russian won the world war two for the whole world. People of Russia did it with great casualty the greatest of all. I t was the second time they did it First was against Napoleon. Then the communism did not exist. So this is not a communist propaganda this is how Russians are.
These are people, who die not some shades and colours you use on your political maps. Flesh and blood like you and me. Where is the care for another human life in all these??
When Hitler all the sudden cross over the Russian borders, I guess it was Winston Churchill who said: lets the Nazis and communist kill each other it is to our benefit!!

Wrong again the chines casualties were way higher, something to the effect of 11 million. I did not mention so many other great contribution to the ww2, such as Romania, France, Great Britain... those were not the subject of our discussion.

"Russian won the world war two for the whole world. People of Russia did it with great casualty the greatest of all. "

^ Says which history book? Citation please. Also, how come you live in Canada and America, and not in Russia? I am sure they would love the propaganda.

Communism = closest cousin to Fascism, in my diction.

In your pro Americanism there is no shame to whatever the American did in the past. You justify everything. I guess you even justify slavery. Lynching blacks, what ever the Yankees did, is and was, for the sack of great democracy, therefore is justified. The slavery, racism, McCarthyism, The fact that the most of north American railways are built on the blood of Chinese, (As they say, under every foot of intercontinental railway, there are more than four chines buried, underpaid hungry), the blood shed of Indians: Before your democracy comes, Indians were peaceful there were some savage tribes here and there, but non as savage as your democracy that slaughtered Indian and destroyed their civilization and took over their lands. Some cultures of Indians they did not even have war, you should surf the flower war that was the most peaceful way of resolving conflicts. Their were no greed for gold. Your scouts of democracy got dazzled by the sight of gold free everywhere, they demolish their civilization for avarice: Incas, Mayans , Toltics ... these are also more historical shame that you are going to explain and justify.

sleep away my precious child your waterbed is gushful of blood.

not only American All the conqueror of the world did that. read the great book of Joseph Conrad "the heart of darkness".

I have been vaguely following this conversation and I don't want to delve into the historical facts and right and wrong. I do, however, want to raise issue with the fact that ALS keeps harping on about RM's cultural and religious background, his belief systems, his reading, and questioning his patriotism.

Much of what both of you say may be valid or not valid, but why is the content deemed tarnished or acceptable depending on the mouth it comes from? Any information, any perception, any belief should be laid on the table here for us to consider in a fair and balanced way with no fear of prejudice. America's actions impact the world and have a right to be judged by the world, not only Americans. ALS, just as you have expressed your strong perceptions about Syria without ever having lived there, others share the same right of passage to America without being personally belittled.

Living in the country doesn't always give you the best knowledge of that country's history. History belongs to the people of the world. People living on a mountain don't always know what their mountain looks like. A bit of distance is needed for perspective. Any comments made about your country should be welcomed, and if it is negative, it should be not be automatically defended or dismissed without due respect.

You are no less of an American if you disagree with some of its laws or actions. You are no more of an American if you defend its every move. It's okay to disapprove, to protest, to be questioning, to be remorseful. You can love something with all of its flaws. That is what love is. If RM presents some unattractive facts about America, it doesn't automatically make him unpatriotic, it means he is a thinking, evaluating, open-minded human being. A country filled with such human beings is a lot better than one filled with blind patriots.

Instead of the citation requested, now you are stirring up another hot bed of coals!

You are talking about history 150 years old, when the country was still taking shape. No one is going to denounce the "wrongs" committed then, corrected long ago (Thirteeenth amendmend was passed in 1864).

If there are so much anti-American sentiments built in why did you take the oath of allegiance?

Do you know of any "good deeds" that America could have done in your book of knowledge?
----------------------------
EDIT: Thanks for joining in Abby.
Are you passing your "judgement" on ALS? Are you biased against ALS as well? Reading in to my intent more than what is obvious?
ALS is just straightening the historical "farce" being brought forward in this thread by RM, eg Guantanomo function, distortions of Vietnam war , A-bombing and Russia getting more credit than it deserves for winning WWII, and not anything more.

Have you read the "abusive" personal language here that I have mostly ignored. I am doing what every sane American should do under the circumstances, dispel "nonsensensical" distortions of American history.

Re: Syria - I don't want to even go there. Just ask your countrymen about what is going on there or research the news better, before passing your "judgement".

Also, I am no "blind patriot", but someone who has read and analyzed all these events well, to be able to earn the right to discuss and criticize "non-facts". I have no desire to visit this thread again unless personally directed comments are placed again Thank you.

You are talking about history 150 years old, when the country was still taking shape. No one is going to denounce the "wrongs" committed then, corrected long ago (Thirteeenth amendmend was passed in 1864).

^^^^

A country that was stolen I might add...

^ You mean Australia was not stolen? from the native Aborigines, descendents of the African homosapiens 50000 years ago ? :)

The land belongs to the "Free" those with an open mind, those who are innovative and use its resources for the benefit of everyone, as hinted in the Star spangled banner:
"O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave"

Do you dispute it?

An interesting non-political fact:

The native Americans (descendents of the Siberians ancestors of the Russians, by anthropological studies) who supposedly came over via the Bering sea after the last ice age, 10,000 yrs ago, were not the first inhabitants of America.

"Kennewick man" and his ancestors from South East Asia (perhaps from my gene pool) may have preceded the Indians in North America, and likewise the Clovis (descendents of the Australian aborigenes) populated the Central and South Americas 11,000 yrs ago before the first Indians arrived.

So do you think the land we live was stolen from our African and Asian ancestors?

(This is just for fun, don't take it serious)

When we were having discussion about philosophy last year. You keep jumping in the conversation. Rendering your opinion and I was having fun, I did not want to embarrass you and tell others how far you were from the subject. We were talking about Greek philosophy and existentialism but you kept referring to it as medieval philosophy. This is like we speak Esperanto and someone jump in the middle and speak gibberish. The other who do not know the language, do not realize what that person is saying is total meaningless and he is not really having conversation with them.
That goes with all your historical conversation. You pick up one piece here and one there and speak like you know it all.

Should I go live in Russia because I say they had the biggest contribution to the world war two? You right I think it is enough to get my Russian citizen ship. I do not need to be a decent man, hard working, perfect citizen, in order to obtain my American statues, the only thing I need to do is kiss and twist the fact in their favors.
But thanks God American are not like this. My contemporary America professor is the one that mentioned about the napalms that American used in Vietnam, the treatment of Chinese and slavery. These facts are even printed in text books.
You have no love for America. You just like your political party. That is why you do not let her to go forward.
A decade ago when I was trying to get my green cart and my six-month was over, my America friends tolled me to marry a citizen. They meant pay some girl for a temporary marriage to get status. I refused, they argued, every other American we know got their status like this, but I declined I left my place my care my friend and gone back to Canada. I tolled them I shall not be the citizen of United State of America, based on deceit and lies, no matter if even the rest of people did it. This is how true American I am.

Now another direction, a personal one again, WOW!

I had promised not to revisit this thread unless personally directed comments are made. So now I have to answer them, unfortunately.

First, you are dead wrong above, I NEVER commented on the "Greek philosophy and existentialism " thread that you allude to. I just checked it out. Philosophy is not my speciality, so I avoid such threads. You owe me an apology for it, because you used personally derogatory statements above.

Secondly, I rarely if ever criticize people personally, but will on their argument, when theyare incorrect or "wild". If you repeatedly use adverse personal comments in a thread, without a good justification, you have crossed my boundary. In all of your arguments above you go about recklessly bringing down a democratic and "free" nation and its people (many of whom came here as refugees fleeing from religious or political persecution) in the process of "showing off" your philosophical knowledge and use incorrect and illogical theories and presumptions to distort history, I will be tempted to say something. Throughout this thread you went flying from one topic to another in your quest to bring a whole nation and person/persons down, with your disrespectful, inherently faulty & historically incorrect arguments. Yes, you showed us how anti-American your thoughts are in every post above, forcing me to respond to them, and question your motive and allegiance to a nation you are a resident/Citizen. So, do not feel offended...you invited this.

Your last post and practically every post above not only show how much you are married to your arguments and the desire to win, you really do not care about anyone else trying to show you a different and more accepted viewpoint. You became repetitious, and argumentative beyond a justifiable reason in your quest to bring down a whole nation, and lost control. Ended up with personal criticisms and fabrication (suggesting I was a moron in the existensialism thread, where I did not even pen a single comment!). You relentlessly assaulted every portion of American history that is unfortunate, that may have good explanations, given the challenging times the country was going through then, not once giving credit to its contributions.

I will stop at that and let you read everything you have written. I do not claim to know all, but am educated enough to tell the difference between a good argument and not a valid one in history or science.

This senseless thread should be locked as it is now becoming an open ended personally abusive one. Please do not invite me again here by penning CRAP and personal insults.

^ You mean Australia was not stolen? from the native Aborigines, descendents of the African homosapiens 50000 yeras ago ? :)

^^^^

We weren't talking about Australia but since you bring it up...yes the circumstances are similar, the difference is I'm not trying to convince everyone that Australia is the perfect country to live in nor am I trying to prove to everyone that I'm a perfect citizen residing here.

A Lonely soul :
"First, you are dead wrong above, I NEVER commented on the "Greek philosophy and existentialism " thread that you allude to. I just checked it out. Philosophy is not my speciality, so I avoid such threads. You owe me an apology for it, because you used personally derogatory statements above."

what derogatory? I said you do not know what you are talking about. You Called me Communist, terrorist brainwashed, so many other things. Even "abracadabra" criticized your about your manners of referring to me.

here is the link to prove you are wrong again::

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=136700

your post the post 47thor 48th from the top is one of them.

There are no black and white in the world. Most of the people that rule the world most of political leaders are either cropped or poppets that some one else holds their threads.
the world that you are depicting, the simple world of black and whites with the white house on the pinnacle of the white world just exist in pages of kindergarten books. most of the good and righteous leaders which were not corrupted , are amongst coloured people or countries other or against US. Leaders like Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King. jamal abdul nasser, Patrice Lumumba, Salvador Allende ...

"You Called me Communist, terrorist brainwashed"

^ I think you either fail to read what is written or purposely misinterpret :

I said "you love communist philosophy"

Never said you were "terrorist brainwashed".

^ These 2 comments alone by you should suffice to show how you love to distort words to "prove yourself" and your "philosophy". Great examples of Falsehood and arrogance.

The derogatory issue...your comments in this thread, practically all of them with the last one being the most offensive. Not only you fail to read the implications of your own words, you come up with more with an attitude, one that is sadly anti-American....Just compare your words to what I wrote. I initially disputed usage of words and historical facts...you then went "bananas" going from one to another thought (all anti-American) to try to cause confusion adding to further distortions of history, feeding more negativity and end up with direct personal insults, justifying them with your contorted philosophy.

Sorry, that is about all I have to say. I have no further desire to participate in this thread or respond to your snubs and arrogance. So enjoy!

I am sure this thread that started by Dan for Darren has outlived its purpose.

I never finished high school so..probably not as educated as some here but I do remember, in my younger years, thinking that some of the communist theories were ok..well more than ok to be honest but just like some religions..it became extreme so I never investigated it further but...I don't see any reason to knock someone who does believe...not really sure if anyone actually came out and admitted to this??? ALS...you are obviously happy to be an american and...that's fine with me but you should always remember there are some outsiders who see your country and it's politicians/citizens in a different way? and...as your dollar still seems to govern world economy I'm sure I'm not the only one watching???

ALS says:
"The land belongs to the "Free" those with an open mind, those who are innovative and use its resources for the benefit of everyone, as hinted in the Star spangled banner:
"O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave"

so according to ALS
now japan could come occupy any western country (except Germany) specially US and say: look what we achieved in a little soil, imagine what we would be achieving if we had all the land and resources of united state of America. So Attention All Americans:: get the hell out of here because we are coming!!

and then he says with pride : " Do you dispute it? "
I do not need to it is self explanatory by itself,
this is the colonialism at its best!! What you saying could not stand even for a second in united nation. Even colonialism was not that blunt.

This part particularly I like: "The land belongs to the "Free"
So if the land belong to the free tomorrow I com to your house. I have a good plan to turn it to a factory. This is my dear is when I say you do not know what you are talking about and you get offended. At list I do not call you names.

Let it go...both of you..there is never going to be a winner here and...I'm never going to totally agree with either of you...I can agree with some things you both say and it's been very interesting but...I'm out now...not because I can't stand my ground guys...2 grandsons birthdays this week ..family comes first :)

Of course there would be no winner.
discussing for the sake of winning is egoistic. You fight for what you believe. but above all you learn and you better your believes in that process .

Most importantly you learn the manner of democracy in which is shaking hand and saying good by in the end.
If you hold on into grudges or anger after tastes, it means you have not learn the manners of the so called democracy that you are the advocate of, and haha invaded other countries for, in the first place!!

democracy must be learned first at home!!

I use to love those movie critics: Gene Siskel & Roger Ebert. who are both death by the way ( God bless them)
They use to fight and argue furiously for their point of view over movies, like you would say they are going to kill each other, but then at the end they laughed and shake hand is such a friendly manners. I found that really democratic!!

Do you have grand son?? I do not even have children.
can I call you grandma??

I do not seek revenge
for the killer of my brothers.
I do not need blood
to be shed
in sacrificial rituals
of sanguinary rages.
I do not need
for the slaughterer of my grand grand fathers to be slaughtered
I do not want the tyrant of my nation
to be murdered
I do not want any pointless pain
But
I do want
the cruelty
the slaughtering
and the tyranny
to die;

It is not the singer
it is the song,
that
I am
after!

Democracy must be learned first at home!!

^^^

Try telling my grandchildren that RM...yes I have six of them, oldest 7...youngest 10 months...the youngest is a girl the other five...boys....democracy among the boys only comes when the oldest has the toy he wants to play with...I'm waiting to see what happens with my grandaughter when she's old enough to challenge them...:)

and.. no..you cannot call me grandma...they don't haha!!!

I don't give a crap how many books one reads and who wrote them. Facts are only weapons to use in place of truths and reality. Reality is, every all civilization did its share of inhumane activity from Russia to China to Africa Australia from sea to shining sea. Holocausts brutality, removing heads, what ever. To imply that "only" America does these things is distortion of History. The world is reality. People are reality. And above it all still going on today in the primitive Middle East....women are being stoned legs hands and feet being removed for made up charges or worse because someone thinks something. People are having their heads removed. ... Poison being dropped on people. Christians being killed by those who can't stand reality. Religion still the bases for wholesale murder. And as far as Shia's vs. Sunni history shows reality is each blame each other for killing Mohammed so they spent couple thousand years killing each other. Not the USA.
So let's all cut the crap and get back to enjoying each others company and leave truths to the real world naturally finding its own water level.

Hahahaha it is so me Hellon to ask a question I I know the answer is no. Or start a battle I know I can't win
I guess I am Don Quixote (De La Mancha) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaN8jxAFtDY
:
To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go
To right the unrightable wrong
To love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star
This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far
To fight for the right
Without question or pause
To be willing to march into Hell
For a heavenly cause
And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest
And the world will be better for this
That one man, scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star

or longer version with the magnificent act of Peter O'Toole::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfHnzYEHAow

"I don't give a crap how many books one reads and who wrote them. Facts are only weapons to use in place of truths and reality."

This means that you only believe in your own truth and do not care about any facts that endangers your version, your utopia of reality. Nothing would get in, except from only one angle one party. What about objectivity? What about facts, and democracy of which anybody has right to be heard? What you're saying is the democracy we import , in the boxes of Napalm and Fat man and Little boy.

You say " let cut the..." right after you disregarded any other facts, after calling Muslims and Middle eastern "primitive", then you ask every one to put their opinion aside and enjoy each other company, right after you dismissed their believes, and any other believes and knowledge but yours. This by itself is very American. Not the Obama's America, Martin Luther king America, Ernest Hemingway America Marlon Brando's... though. This is the America of those who want to turn our kindergartens to battlefields.

"In primitive middle east."
The firs civilizations in the world started in the Middle East. Calling whole nation primitive in account of a bunch of fanatics is nothing but a primitive approach itself.
Because of your animosity with knowledge I am sure you are not familiar with the Inquisition committee that executed, BURNED, stoned and assassinated hundreds of thousand of Christian in medieval time, or the fight between Protestants and catholics. They burned people only for saying that it is the earth turning around sun not vice versa, even though it looks the other way around. ( fanatics only see what comes to their eyes!!)
So Islam is much younger then Christianity. (700 years) it hasn't had its prime yet, the "renaissance", in which brought the Christians from dark ages to the light, this is yet to happen amongst Muslims. (And because of the interference of the colonialism it is delayed also.) That is why Muslims act almost as primitive as their Christian brothers few hundred years ago.
Shia's and Sunni like Catholic and protestant have long history of conflicts. But they were living with minimal conflict in Iraq until the American invader started to built walls between them in their neighborhoods. It polarized them to two resenting entities. It is the Winston Churchill's motto: To rule them make them fight with each other!!

We agree on most of what is said by both of us. Your words imply to mine as a difference. In reality my words were explaining not as "at the moment" but as the world turns from then to now. Of course Christians were always persecuted but by even other Christians. Then you go on to say Muslems are behind the times because they must be allowed to ferment into turning the other cheek which in your words indicate would take centuries to reach consummation. Meanwhile thousands upon thousands continue to die. When instructions are there for everyone to see.

In the end it seems we "we" both want the same goals. Peace love harmony. Facts only prove what is wrong and can be twisted to blame what is wrong when reality shows us both what is wrong. It is up to us to see to see truths.

Side note, under Saddam Hussein in Iraq, Sunni and Shia did not live in peace. Saddam treated Shia as did Catholics treated Protestants. Protestants and Catholics eventually found common ground but inside they still oppose one another. (Ireland). I have a hard time saying but a small percentage of Muslems are excepting their's together. Using outside sources to blame is an excuse to be used or to justify all the hate and harm.(reality)
It is said excuse that Hussein feared Shia ties to Iran were his reasoning to persecute, when in reality thousand years no outside source instilled the hate they have inside for each other.

Peace can never be until reality is recognized.

All religions are primitive. All had their shares of hatred and persecution. some however are stuck in a time warp.

This is a very positive turn in the tune of this conversation. And I appreciate that. Something that we could not establish in this thread before. Even by over using of the word crap in the other post., you as always are respectful and gentlemen and never call me communist or terrorist. In which the second one I heat the most. To be able to talk in unpoisoned environment regardless of all the differences is democracy. I myself do not care for living in the world that there are no, difference of opinion, and diversity.

pay attention what Don Quixote says about POETRY and madness::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttTDDa5r_vo&list=RD02MUmYX-hUyN8

Dear dan I agree with you in the essence of Christianity regarding the turning cheek witch most of the time they do not practice (they even go opposite.) This part is not shared neither by Old Testament nor by Quran.
These two religions are teeth for teeth, eye for eye kind of religions. Some people argue that aspect has something to do with their Semitic root, but Christianity has the same root as well. In this aspect Christianity ( just on paper) is much closer to my own Zoroastrian background, which is soft and kind
In the makyavelizm of the others' there are justification for any act, any cruel act in the name of a righteous goal . But in Zoroastrian believe you cannot use the means of evil to fight against evil. You cannot put bombs in public places to fight against the injustice and tyranny. You cannot take someone's Land based on you religious documentation. Or blockade their town with women and children for months and years , starve them and savagely attack any ship that come to aid civilians, you cannot napalm up whole nation, burn all their woods and villages in the name of fight against evil. In communism they do the same. Stalin killed thousands of farmers to teach them it is better for them to share the land!! So that is why I choose the REAL Christianity in compare with the other Abrahamic religions. I believe the Sufism and Kabbalah are the good part of Islam and Judaism. I believe there is still true Christian left in the world who still believes in the WORD, (JOHN chapter one). I believe there are Good Communist in the world also. Gorbachev is my favorite politician of all. He is the man who turn around soviet union with all its traditions of subordination. Gorbachev's democracy was deeper than all the western politicians even though he came from a country with long attitude of feudalism, tsarism and Stalinism. I also think the Fareast religions have a very healthy attitude towards peace and justice; religions like Buddhism, Zen, Tao... And if all these make me a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian or a communist or a Buddhist, then so be it. I am all of them. All the fingers are pointing at the moon but we can't see it, we just see our fingers and the other fingers are off from our angles, because we are trapped in our individualities, ourselves. We are separated, disconnected to each other, and the moon, consequently. So our fingers are in real turning and only pointing at ourselves instead of the direction we all share.