Congrats Andy Murray

He had so much weight of expectation on his shoulders, Yet he did it and did it in style. Murray wins Wimbledon. The NO. 1 grand slam in tennis.

Go Murray!!!

I only glimpsed through the match but I'm glad he won.

Certainly deserving for Murray and for England after ? 77 years of drought on home grounds. Enjoyed part of the match. Congratulations.

Err....Andy Murray is Scottish!

He was born in Glasgow just like me. Sorry..I just hate when people give the English credit when it's not due :)

Every sports report I heard or read this morning said he was the first Brit in x amount of years to win.

Hellon :) That is because us "commoners" sometimes mistake England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland as England. I knew he was Scottish when I first wrote and had this add on "Hellon would be proud of her former homeland lad"...which I should not have removed.

http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain.html

^For us foreigners....ahhm.....here is something to help ...as the Scots, Welsh and Irish (I believe 1/2 of the mods) might feel offended when called English. Sorry, Scottish lass to offend your pride :)

Britt, I believe calling them British is technically correct for newspapers, as Britain is more equated to the British Isles as in the full name of the country (UK's full and official name is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"), but still not as acceptable to the Scottish and the Irish (those not from the Irish republic), most times.

Hellon,
As first generation Irish I can relate.
Richard Harris used to complain that whenever he won an award the Tabloids would praise the "British actor." However, every time he pulled a rowdy they would scream about the "Irish hooligan."

It is similar with Andy Murray, when he wins he is British when he loses he is Scottish.

I just think he is a great Tennis player, he has done well in an era that has Federer, Nadal and Novak playing.

Well that is just plain confusing.

He is definitely a great player. I watched a few clips of the match, made me miss playing so much!

As far as I am concerned, whether he is Scottish, Welsh, Irish or English, he is British and one of us, and so I congratulate him as a fellow Britain for doing so very well! I am proud to be British!

Peter..

Hey ALS!

You know who IS from England and won Wimbledon way more recently?

I'd tell you, but I don't want you to lose out on a wiki moment. Go!

PS. This is just a very mild example of how the cunning media can distort things so well.

Peter...are you proud to be british because Andy Murray won Wimbledon or just proud in general?

I'm very proud of my Scottish heritage but not necessarily everything that involves me as a british subject....we have a very old saying and...a lot of men have it on the belt buckles of their kilts...

"British by birth
Scottish by
the grace of God"

^^ Hey Abby: I knew it was coming :)
No it was not ALS who made up the news...it was the British Tabloids (Daily Mail and others), who don't consider "women as people". :( I am just a reader, sorry. Good try though :) And thanks for giving me another opportunity to dig up the real facts, not necessarily from Wiki...

FOUR (not ONE) British women have won Wimbledon singles since the Brit legend Fred Perry in 1936. Can you guess which one's, so I will let you check your Wiki :)

ALS..."Women as people"? I think this comment refers to Virginia Wade winning Wimbledon way back but...pretty sure Abby is meaning last year when Marray (not Murray) won the doubles final at Wimbledon?

One thing I learned while playing tennis in school is that you could be the best doubles team/player in the district and you don't get any recognition. It's all about the singles players, so it makes sense that the media wouldn't include doubles teams winning.

Well, I think Peter is proud in general, Hellon, but should check to be sure!

Strange thing is that Peter loves Scottish people (he is British) and that the one person I knew well and was Scottish, despised the British and said that Scottish people in general do so?

Hi Hellon,

I am proud to be British because Andy won on behalf of ALL us Brits, the Scottish of course included as also our Welsh and Irish cousins.
I have no time for bitterness or grudges born of battles fought long time ago between all members of the British Isles, and as such, love all the members of Britain and its racial component peoples who make up this great Country of ours.

I love Scotland very much, its people have made huge contributions for the good of us all in this beautiful Island of ours that we share.
Those that harbour grudges over their neighbours in this wonderful free country of ours, inevitably leads always to bloodshed, as we all witnessed watching the Irish situation over many years, and the troubles and the blood spilled there over long held grievances and hatreds...
What is the point of all that?

We are all blessed with being given a short life here on this wonderful planet of ours, let's not waste our short lives here despising and hating others on long held past grievances.
That is not the way to live our lives, they should be lived in peace and harmony not war mongering.

That motto you express is distasteful in the extreme, and I hope few Scottish people welcome that, for it is born of hatred towards ones fellow man.

To all those in the world who harbour such ill feelings towards others, I say stop despising and start living and loving. Your time is short here on this earth, make the most of it in peace and love towards your fellow man, and leave hatred where it belongs, In hell.

Peter..

That motto you express is distasteful in the extreme, and I hope few Scottish people welcome that, for it is born of hatred towards ones fellow man.

^^^^

Why do you find it distasteful? It's only meant as an expression of gratefulness that we were born in that part of the UK....nothing more.

There is no where in any of my posts where I said I despise ANYONE nor have I made reference to past history or grudges against anyone so please don't put words in my mouth.
--------------------
Strange thing is that Peter loves Scottish people (he is British) and that the one person I knew well and was Scottish, despised the British and said that Scottish people in general do so?

^^^^

Ingrid...I'm not really sure what you mean by this? Scotland comes under the same roof as England, Northern Ireland and Wales...we are ALL British so for a scot to say they despise the British is really saying they despise themselves I believe. Don't know who told you this but...it doesn't make sense to me.

Cmon Hellon, all you Scot's are crazy! :P

I thought the motto Hellon said wasn't a bad thing against Brits at all, but showing a pride in Scottish heritage.

Dear P.E. even though I agree with almost everything you said, I have to make this adjustment about the subject of hatred . Hatred is one of the human emotion that is necessary to our continuance. we have to hate and despise in order to love and survive. One who can not hate child molesters, tyrants or true terrorists... is a victim of indifference, the worst shape of alienation of human from human!! But If the hatred is more in the personal level and directed at the individuals instead of the social causes, that hatred, as you mentioned, is in its way to the hell . We are talking about constructive hatred: Without One Zero is meaningless!!

Well said Peter, Darren and Britt :)

Asides, on the topic of Murray regaining men's tennis Wimbledon singles title for the UK, I think Darren's little Abby may also love to read about the legend of Fred Perry, one of the greatest British born Tennis tennis stars that ever lived. This amazing sportsman not only won -
-3 consecutive Wimbledon men's singles (1934-36)
but also,
-3 US Open's, among a total of 10 Grand slam titles, and the first in the world and the only Brit to win all Grand slams in his career.
- He also had wins in the World Table tennis championships (Silver in doubles 1928, Gold in singles 1929) ! amazing, as Ping pong is predominantly a wrist game as against Tennis being shoulder/elbow. Wow !

He was unfortunately snubbed and ignored by the prestigious "All England Club", so much so that he left England 2 years after his last Wimbledon win to become a US citizen. I guess times were different then.

Anyway, this is more of an congratulatory thread for Murray and his countrymen, so why not congratulate him and his countrymen and hope he is as successful as Perry one day.

He was unfortunately snubbed and ignored by the prestigious "All England Club", so much so that he left England 2 years after his last Wimbledon win to become a US citizen. I guess times were different then.

^^^^

So what does that tell you? If he had been born on the north side of the border perhaps he would have stayed at home :)

Edit...

Just a piece of general information for all interested. Yes, Scotland is part of Britain that much is true, the currency in Britain is pound sterling. Scotland accepts English banknotes but very few places in England will accept Scottish notes....they will however, obviously accept the victory of a Scotsman!

Hellon I don't know how old you are IRL, but the way you talk about the English makes me think you are well over 50, cause that is the kind of attitude my parents and their parents had.

No place for it anymore. Even if we get independence next year we need to erase the borders, not write over them in permanant biro.

Who gives a flying spagetti monster if Andy Murray is referred too as "British" rather than Scottish. Newsflash, Scotland is part of Britain in much the same way New York is part of America. You think New Yorkers get upset when someone calls them American?

You might as well just confess that Braveheart is your favourite movie and Mel Gibson is a historian after your own heart. :)

Kevo...piss off! Braveheart was a MOVIE and anyone who thinks that it was fact is delusional!

Who cares about Andy Murray being referred to as British?....well...not me but, I butted in here because he was actually referred to as English....big difference IMO

Does it matter what age I am....don't you get pissed off when you visit England and your Scottish pound is declined....

Edit...

piss off just means a friendly way of saying....are you serious? It's used frequently in Australia without malice and...I thought Scotland too but....now I'm not sure? I definitely was not meaning to be rude when I said it...hope it wasn't taken that was by you Kevin?

Hellon,

the person I am talking about is a Scottish man in his fifties,who was kind of forced to move from Scotland to England in his childhood days, due to there being more work in the UK than in Scotland. He told me many times how much he hates living in the UK and actually does see English and Scottish people as two seperate people and the Scottish off course as the superior one!!. I know he is only one person, though, his views might very well be not shared by many of the younger generation, or even his peers?

See...I still don't get this Ingrid...and I'm trying really hard to understand and...as you live outwith the UK it must be even more difficult for you so let me try to explain my thoughts...UK or Britain is made up of Scotland, England Wales and Northern Ireland...it's still all classed as Britain or UK so....I'm going to assume this person lived in Scotland and moved to England for work? but he still works/is British....is this correct? If so, he may not like living in England (not UK for...if he was still in Scotland he'd still be living there.. in UK I mean) So...I'm still confused about your perception of Scotland...I'm pretty sure you know where it is located on the map but...perhaps you have been mislead about other things?

Hi Hellon,

I know how Great Brittain is made up of different sections that once used to be seperate and also know where it is all situated. I am now visiting England on a regular basis and it's lovely, lovely people. I have no preference or thoughts about Scottish/ Irish/ English people. To me it seems they are all good folk.

The friend I told you about is Scottish by birth, but has lived in England most of his life and still does. He clearly dislikes living there, said so often and also says that the Scottish people he knows dislike English people (all who do not live on the part known as "Scotland", the most Northern part of the continent)

I can relate to this way of thinking a little. In my country people who live outside of the part that is known as the central part of the Netherlands are considered second class citizens. The people in the central part of our country talk without accent and live in the big cities mostly and the majority of the people in it earn more money each month then the ones who live in the more rural parts of our country. I know about this, but don't parttake in this nonsense. I am from a southern province by birth, and have lived in the central part of Holland almost all of my life, very near the coast and love both places very much. I don't really understand the need for labels anyway.

"You might as well just confess that Braveheart is your favourite movie and Mel Gibson is a historian after your own heart. :)"

So THAT'S what she's always quoting! One time, when Hellon was a part of The Club, we had an old member say they were going to move on and try Phoenix Rising.

Hellon said, and I quote: "Before we let you leave, you must cross that field, present yourself before Jane, put your head between your legs, and kiss your own ars*!"

I think a lot of friendships might have been saved if we had known she was just quoting some obscure movie that nobody had ever seen before.

I don't remember saying that Sibs but perhaps I did...sounds like something I'd say for a laugh. Maybe you should post it in the Interesting Quotes thread haha!!!

"Who cares about Andy Murray being referred to as British?....well...not me but, I butted in here because he was actually referred to as English....big difference IMO"

^To this I would like to quote the following history that I read, while researching Scotland's union with England:

"In the 16th century, there was a rivalry between two queens, Mary Queen of Scots, and Queen Elizabeth I, who each wanted the throne of the other, and who were cousins.

Mary Queen of Scots fled to England after being overthrown in her own country, and was imprisoned for nearly 20 years, before being beheaded by Elizabeth I for plotting against her (Mary's letters to supporters were intercepted by English spies).

But Mary had married Lord Darnley, and had a son, James VI of Scotland, while Elizabeth I, the "Virgin Queen" had no children. As such, Mary's son, James VI of Scotland was next in line for the throne of England, and ruled as King James I of that country. That's because Mary's grandmother was the older sister of Henry VIII, Elizabeth I's father. (None of Henry VIII's other siblings or his children had children of their own.)

The ascension of Scotland's King James VI to the throne of England as James I, really started the unification process, completed over a century later when the Scots claimants to the throne of Scotland were defeated in battle."

So, Hellon, it seems from the history that if the 2 queens, Mary of Scotland and Elizabeth I of England were cousins, and Mary's only son James VI who ruled Scotland after Mary fled, and later inherited England's throne as James I, as Elizabeth I had no child, titling himself "King of Great Britain", why distinguish Scotland from England.....they finally merged in 1707 under the Stuart lineage of Kings after James ascension to the throne of England?

I would imagine you would also be proud too to be called British. Aren't Scots descendants of Picts (Caledonians or "sea raiders") and Scotti (? Gaelic . Scotti were supposedly cousins of the Anglo Saxon Germanic tribes who populated England from a variety of sources - Celtic, Belgae, who in turn got over-run by Romans, Norse, Goths and Huns over the years.

I am all confused on this Scottish pride of yours? not being from over there. So kindly explain what makes a Scot unique and not "British"in modern times ?

You provide me with history and then ask

So kindly explain what makes a Scot unique and not "British"in modern times ?
^^^^
I never said I wasn't British in these modern times as you call them I never said, as a scot I was unique either....what I did say was...Andy Murray is not English and....that's just fact...he's Scottish. Also, I never claimed to be unique...just proud of my heritage.

Something for you to consider....

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Scotland

^^^^^^

Going back a little further...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Scotland

^^^^^

Here you will see that Scotland was once attached to North America and when it detached the land that is now Scotland stood alone.

Elizabeth the 1st wasn't interested in the Scottish throne. She also found it extremely difficult to sign Mary's death warrant. Many times she refused despite the evidence put before her.

She had Mary stay in one of her manors under house arrest but always treated her as a queen.

There was no mention or inkling of England and Scotland unifying while she was on the throne.
Mary was ill advised and it was the enemies of Elizabeth (English at that) that convinced Mary that the English throne was her God given right.

Francis Walsingham was the chief spy master that uncovered the plot. It was the duke of Norfolk that was the main instigator.

I'm well off late for the post lol but Congrats to Andy Murray!!

He was the better player on the day and wanted it more, even at times he looked slightly tired and sluggish however in saying that I'm glad he won =]

^^And certainly Darren, Scottish (and UK) history would dispute your English version presented above, that Mary of Scotland was a "big problem". She on the contrary I suspect was a victim of the Protestant English and Scot nobles, neither of whom wanted her Catholic influence, it seems. She fled Scotland after the nobles rebelled against her and put her toddler son on the throne instead. She trusted Elizabeth I (who some would say was born illegitimate to Henry VIII before his divorce, and hence not entitled to the English throne), her cousin for shelter, who simply imprisoned her for 19 years instead, not meeting her even once in person! Then finally a "plot" uncovered by faithfuls (or framed? the accidentally discovered "silver casket letters" supposedly by Mary... were all unsigned) and then Elizabeth I orders a "beheading" of her own half-sister? What kind of a brethren would that be? Simply believing in her paranoia that Mary would bring about religious instability with her devoutly Catholic bringing up.
I have much sympathy for Mary here, married thrice, to frail nobles or alcoholics, raped once, fleeing her own kingdom for shelter to her half-sister's kingdom, only to be imprisoned and later accused of "plotting" and then "beheaded"! What bad luck for an otherwise noble queen. Here are the sources -

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/mary_queen_of_scots.htm
http://www.noblesandcourtiers.org/mary-queen-of-scots.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Queen_of_Scots

Enjoying this debate Darren. :) I am not from UK, so this gives me an opportunity to read and research about it. Hey, all the real UK people ( Kevin, Colm, and others) and I mean the Irish ancestry mods too - Larry, Jane & ? Sibs) will love to here your opinions on English and Scottish history. Feel free to correct/criticize my impressions.
Now, I have to side with Hellon's Scottish pride for the moment :), as I get an impression that Mary of Scotland was really poorly treated by her English cousin.
-------------------------------
"Here you will see that Scotland was once attached to North America "....Hellon (above)

^ See! now you do have a legitimate claim to be a New Englander (an American) from which Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England broke lose 250 million yrs ago :)
The big difference... most Americans pride themselves to be an American first (a hotch-potch of immigrants, cultures and religions), and Texans, Californians, New Englanders, English, Irish, Scottish, Japanese, etc next.

I'm going to skip all the history trivia...most of it is Wiki facts that are a bit dodgy IMO, Mary Queen of Scots spend most of her life in France, yes, she was the Queen of Scotland but her marriage was arranged at a very early age to some French guy (yes, this is off the top of my head, not Dr Google so...I could be wrong) just...some French guy. Guess he must have been important because he eventually became King of France which made Mary Queen Consort (hope that's the right word?)....she only returned to Scotland after his death and...as a catholic she faced a lot of problems with the protestant uprise then (I think)...I'm honestly not sure what happened after that...I do know she was beheaded so I guess Elizabeth finally became queen. Like I said....I could google but..these are just my memories from boring days in history class :) Oh...and...a lot of people think the whole of Ireland is tacked on to Britain but....it's only Northern Ireland which is very small compared to The Republic....not sure where Colm or the other irish decendants of this site come from but....you may not get them to answer because they or their families were/are not involved with the intricacies ...did I really say I was going to skip the history trivia haha!!! May not be 100% accurate here but then....neither is Wiki...

^ See! now you do have a legitimate claim to be a New Englander (an American) from which Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England broke lose 250 million yrs ago :)
(a hotch-potch of immigrants, cultures and religions), and Texans, Californians, New Englanders, English, Irish, Scottish, Japanese, etc next.

^^^^

I'll pass on the first part..I have no desire to a claim as a New Englander....there was no human life that I am aware of living in Scotland back than and...if there was...I wonder what they looked like....shudder to think :)

The big difference... most Americans pride themselves to be an American first

^^^^

OK...right back at you on this part I said I was proud of my heritage and...I most certainly am so...now you're telling my Americans are proud of THEIR heritage too and, you as an American citizen are also proud, that's the way it should be so....I don't see why you challenged me (asking why I felt I was unique) when you feel the same about America?

And..to Kevin

No place for it anymore. Even if we get independence next year we need to erase the borders, not write over them in permanant biro.

^^^

And when they have leached every resource that Scotland has to offer then they will quite willingly hand it back and it will become independent...

Sibs...remember that time in pirate camp...not band camp...when we decided to stalk the member who deserted us for PR? Nicko was in charge (I know he's Abby's husband but Sheeewwwws he has really fat thumbs)...anyway...we were looking over his shoulder (they are also big) looking for directions and we ended up in RPC...we did some good shopping that day but never lassoed our escapee...maybe I've got this one wrong too LMAO!

No, that sounds about right. I had almost forgotten! I wonder if he ever did get our letters...

ALS. MQS was the daughter of James V of Scotland & Mary of Guise. She was not the half-sister of EI

You may have her mixed up with Mary I of England ("Bloody Mary"), who preceded EI & was her half-sister.

Larry: Thanks for joining in. I was beginning to think that this interesting thread is going to run dry soon after Hellon "shoved off" the history behind Scotland's most famous and persecuted Queen.
As stated in my post above, and per Wiki above (fascinating reading) and other sources,

But, MQS aka Mary Stuart, aka Mary I of Scotland was the great-niece of King Henry VIII of England. Mary's grandmother (Stuart line) was the older sister of Henry VIII, Elizabeth I's father (Tudor lineage). None of Henry VIII's other siblings or his children had children of their own. She is mentioned as a half-sister of Elizabeth I for this reason, who never married (nicknamed the virgin queen). That is why MQS sent an envoy some years prior to her fleeing Scotland asking Elizabeth I to name her (MQS) as the rightful successor to the English throne (as Henry VIII's lineage had run dry..no grandchildren), which led to the later misunderstanding and imprisonment of MQS by E1, when she fled Scotland seeking refuge from her cousin/half-sister. Further, the Catholics contested the legitimacy of E1 citing the order of succession as E1 was thought to be born out of wedlock to Henry VIII, before he was divorced and remarried.

Completely agree, Bloody Mary = was Queen Mary I of England, the only daughter of Henry VIII from his first wife, who brutally persecuted the Protestants during her 42 year reign following Henry VIII's death, earning her this title. E1 succeded her.
But, I did not mix her up with MQS, Larry. The names are indeed confusing but the stories behind each of them, intriguing.
----------------------
Hellon: Thanks for your comments on MQS, but they do not match the recorded history. MQS indeed had a tragic life, for a woman....You may find it interesting to revisit Wiki and other sources cited above to straighten the facts out. Just by reading more about her, I feel sorry for her lifelong tragedies and do sympathize. She did not spend most of her life in France. At age 18 or19 she returned back to Scotland, after her French Prince/King died at a similar age. all of it is worth reading again, at least I enjoyed it thoroughly. :)

But, MQS aka Mary Stuart, aka Mary I of Scotland was the great-niece of King Henry VIII of England. Mary's grandmother (Stuart line) was the older sister of Henry VIII, Elizabeth I's father (Tudor lineage). None of Henry VIII's other siblings or his children had children of their own. She is mentioned as a half-sister of Elizabeth I for this reason, who never married (nicknamed the virgin queen^

^^^^

Because she's mentioned as a half sister (and I wonder where you got that from)...doesn't make her one...I say probably a second cousin at a guess? Mary I of England and EI of England were half sisters.

As for your footnote....I did say it was off the top of my head and I had not visited Wiki for my post but now I have and....according to that information which I don't fully trust regardless of it backing up what I said....MQS left Scotland for France (although she became Queen of Scotland at 6 days old) at the age of 4...she returned aged 25 after the death of her French husband..King Frank :)

I don't sympathize with her or anyone else in that period...after all ...it's nothing new..people are still doing the dirty behind one another's back today...She was forced to abdicate and was replace by her one year old son...what does this tell you? The people who ran Scotland in her absence didn't want her back I guess?

I notice you never replied to this part....

Your full comment...

The big difference... most Americans pride themselves to be an American first (a hotch-potch of immigrants, cultures and religions), and Texans, Californians, New Englanders, English, Irish, Scottish, Japanese, etc next.

I think the first three you mention are states within America so they are not countries...Scotland is. The others well...I would have to look at your oath (discussed before I know) and America asks for people applying for citizenship to....

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

Australia has a more laid back approach with their pledge...

From this time forward
I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
whose democratic beliefs I share,
whose rights and liberties I respect, and
whose laws I will uphold and obey.

I would NEVER renounce my heritage and....gladly I wasn't asked to do so. Obviously you feel very different about yours?