Plastic

In his latest novel, "And the Mountains Echoed", Dr. Khaled Hosseini says, "I learned that the world didn't see the inside of you, that it didn't care a whit about the hopes and dreams, and sorrows, that lay masked by skin and bone. It was as simple, as absurd, and as cruel as that. My patients knew this. They saw that much of what they were, would be, or could be hinged on the symmetry of their bone structure, the space between their eyes, their chin length, the tip projection of their nose, whether they had an ideal nasofrontal angle or not.
Beauty is an enormous, unmerited gift given randomly, stupidly."

-- What's your saying about the perceptions of our new world order regarding beauty? Do you support plastic surgeries? Share your opinions, please.

I have had plastic surgery for a birth defect that was going to cause me issues as my body grew. It wasn't a cosmetic surgery, which is what I don't agree with.

Im torn, because while I don't love my nose, and think I would look better with some changes, I accept the way I look and generally like it for the most part. I am happy with myself, however that was only after I loved myself on the inside first. The only reason I had my surgery was because of the problems it would cause later. I disagree with breast implants, though I understand it. I think butt implants are ridiculous..all the lip work...ew. people can look so overdone, and it really takes away from their beauty.

Long story short, I disagree (but don't judge) with cosmetic surgery. Fixing things that cause your body pain or problems, that to me is just smart :)

Thanks. A gulp of fresh air!!. Finally someone comes with something worth to talk about, something higher than kindergartener order of lettered.
lets see how far this goes for obviously we are interested in nothing but games and names(competition that is)

I concur, the doctor's diagnosis is right.
however plastic surgery is a vital medical tool to help the victims of accidents, wars or birth defects also some extreme cases. And it has been abused like any other thing because of the obsessiveness of the commercial world.
The world that its motto is: if you have $100 spend $99 for advertisement and only $1 for your product. 99 present for attracting others, only one for the quality of what you attracting others to. This world as you could see has only one present care ( even not that) for the inside's quality.

Interesting and thought provolkong topic. I agree that plastic surgery should be used for medical reasons such as birth defect or problems/pains cause by accidents or age.

But to make yourself look better? I think not. As a women, there are things I definitely don't like about my body, but to go about changing it would be changing a part a me. I believe that everyone is beautiful in there own way and a lot of people are too stupid or too jaded to see it. Beauty shouldn't be defined by Hollywood or the worlds standards. A good way (in my mind) to think about it, I that of someone isn't attracted to you, don't try to change your appearance to fit their shallow oponions, find people that love you, all of you, for who you are. After all, beauty is IN the imperfections.

Do any of you know a person, who has gone through a cosmetic surgery, a friend or a family member?
I do, and they are very pleased with the end results! They have more confidence and feel happier even though they live far away from Hollywood :)
And since I sense much spirituality within this thread I would love to see how would your tone change if you would sit down and talk with Chaz Bono, or God forbid if he would be your child?
After all, as I recall, he used to be a beautiful little girl from the outside, right? Would you still protest against Plastic
or would you become more enlightened and understand freewill?

As far as a sex change, I disagree, thats simply because of my faith though. I believe if God made us male or female that is who we are meant to be. . like Britt I pass no judgement though.

I am in the beauty field. I am an esthetician (skin care specialist), ive thought long and hard about my work. I love it! I dont perform the surgeries, but do work on the skin and Im also a makeup artist. What Ive gathered is I love my work because with skin, its actaully an organ. And we all need it to be healthy. so facials and chemical peels and microdermabrasions, that helps with healing your skin and of course makes people feel better about themselves.

With makeup, my gosh I love it. yes we all have natural beauty, but seriously makeup is made to accentuate your best features! Come on, I dont care who you are, all eyes look more popped and gorgeous with at least mascara.

As far as cosmetic surgery, I dont totally knock it. To try and look like someone else is stupid, embrace your features not others. But for instance, my best friend has little to no boobs...and any type of shirt just does not look good. She looks flat chested. Some will say, well have her embrace it. No. Its a woman thing. Theres something nice about having decent sized breasts. So she wants breast implants when shes older. But with her, she isnt going dramatic. Just natural looking, up a cup size. If women want to do natural looks cosmetic surgeries I support that. As we lose weight or age, our bodies change. And if anyone wants to try and accentuate their features still, but need surgery to fix it, go for it. It makes them feel better about themselves. Isnt that what we need?

We dont need anymore depressed, overweight, binge drinkers, smokers, tanning bed worshippers (all contributing to skin change and body feature change)...let people enhance their features as time changes them, and stop the depression about how the look. I support it, again, only if its natural looking. I will roll my eyes and triple d breasts, oversized lips....But I will smile at face lifts or makeup tattoos. Makes people feel good.

Makeup tattoos freak me out. Look at how much style changes. I know a girl who, at 23, got eyeliner tattooed I'm that winged style. I'm pretty anti tattoos for the most part, because I know so many people who got these ridiculous things that mean nothing, they just looked good at the time. Our culture is too instant gratification.

I disagree with sex changes, spiritually speaking as Chels said. However, to each their own and that is between them and God. Its not my battle to mend.

I have quite a few family members who have gotten plastic surgery, they're a huge influence as to why I'm not in love with the idea. One aunt went from flat chested to a double D cup size. She not only looks ridiculous, they're waaay too big, but she still feels terrible about herself. Her awful husband and years of addiction obviously factor in, but did she think big boobs would fix that? She didn't fix the root.

Her daughter also got implants, way too big, and she has the same issues with self esteem, bad choices in men, addictions etc.

My cousin got lipo and a tummy tuck and regrets it, she won't show anyone but says its absolutely awful, and that she shouldve done it the right way.

A friend of mine got lip injections. Theyre lumpy! Maybe that's just bad plastic surgery, which you run the risk of, but she was beautiful before. Now her lips look deformed.

A great aunt had a face lift and her face was so tight it was awful. She seriously looked SCARY. Whats wrong with wrinkles? She was a little old lady, she earned those laugh lines!

So you see why I'm anti plastic. Lol. I believe its a mask to the real problem 99% of the time.

Many people feel better about themselves post plastic surgery, if the surgery goes according to plan. Should they? I think that's the flaw in our culture... that we give people reason to feel more confident after altering themselves.

I think having a few things done would greatly increase my confidence. I'd love a different nose, bigger boobs, etc., and I could attain these things with surgery. I would be more confident because I would receive more attention, and would be regarded as more beautiful. I might congratulate myself for making the choice to change myself.
I think it's giving your own morality too much credit to think you'd prefer the girl with a giant nose to a girl with a cute, little nose post surgery.
As long as we continue to reward beauty, we will continue to prioritize it. It's terrible that we place significance on practically unattainable physical beauty. But we do! We reward beautiful people for being beautiful. We want them. We want to be them. We hire them. We promote them. We even view attractive people as more intrinsically "good." We continue to do this while secretly hoping that our own ugliness is the exception. We want beauty, but hope others don't mind if we're ugly, and will reward us all the same.

What on earth is wrong with us!?

Nin, by Hollywood, I meant it has a huge influence on how people feel about themselves and they see movie stars and people of that stature to be role models, that's what I meant by Hollywood. I did reread my post and I apologize If it sounded at all judgmental, as I am not a judgmental person that was just my personal opinion.

I'm with Britt and Chelsey on the sex change thing, I disagree with it because of my faith. But if i were to meet chaz bono or have any of my children decided that, i would simply say its your decision and your life, what you do won't really effect te way I look at you, its whats inside that counts. People have impulses and desires but that doesn't necessarily mean we should act on them. The idea to take the body you have been given and change it, in my mind, isn't wise. But yeah, to each there own (:

I think I'm disagreeing with the statement from Dr Khalid Hosseini here?

Http://www.thefreelibrary.com/I'm+not+The+Bo
y+David+any+more+..I'm+a+man+now+and+I+don't+want+to...-a0107603527

Read this...perhaps it will change the opinion of some. I had the great privilege of meeting David when we both lived in Glasgow...he was an engaging child back then and I could tell he was going to struggle but definitely overcome being different...

"So undaunted is David by his appearance that two years ago he moved to Hollywood - one of the most looks-orientated places on Earth.

Here, he hopes to use his talents as an artist and graphic designer to direct movies - or make a living as a special effects man. He would even consider a role in front of the lens.

Surprisingly, he enjoys the town's superficiality. "If I can make my mark here, then that will be sending out the message that anyone can"

Wow....what a statement!

Britt, see makeup tattoos again, Id disagree if they were dratic. My teachers best friend lost her eyelashes now that she got older and got permenant eyeliner to make her eyes look a little more defined. I support that. Hell, Im lazy, I wish I wasnt a wuss or Id get that done too so I didnt have to apply it every day and scrub it off. lol

Jane whats wrong is it is with technology increasing we now have easy fixes. I dont know if anythings wrong with that. I wonder if people in Victorian Ages or Rennaissance would like and enjoy and go for what we offer now, makeup wise and surgery wise. They had to embrace natural beauty and try to be creative to do makeup, sometimes they punched their cheeks for rosey looks and bit their lips for lipstick. i read that in school....bet theyd appreciate some Covergirl lol

Chels...I'm going to agree with you to a certain extent...I've had eyelash extensions done and...why the hell not...I don't need to worry about eyeliner or mascara for around six weeks so bonus!!! I saw someone in Thailand with an eyebrow tattoo and I wasn't so keen on that...her brows were shaved for the tat and when they started to grow back it just looked weird to me!... I've been reading about eyebrow embroidery...do you know what that is? It lasts for 18 months or so..therefore not as permanent as a tat...like Britt says..even makeup fashions change right?

Having said all that..I don't really care whether people get stuff done...science/technology has made us live longer so why not use the technology to enhance our appearance if it makes us feel better.

I note that a couple of you have said already that you don't judge and yet...in saying that a double DD cup is...whatever term used...unrealistic/unnatural...you already did.

* I don't dislike tattoos either...I have two myself, they are just strategically placed lol!!!

* Edit...might save this point for later...

I believe the choice for elective surgery is solely the decision of the patient with guidance from the doctor and input from their family. That includes sex change surgery.

The benefits of reconstructive surgery are immense, regarding birth defects and recovery from cancer surgery, such as mastectomies.

I believe that most breast augmentations are not wise but that is my personal opinion.

Some surgery robs the individual of the charm that made them unique. I think of Jennifer Gray, from Dirty Dancing. She had a nose job & then could not find work because she blended in with the other hopefuls.

I also think the ease of surgery can lead to spectacular fails such as Michael Jackson & Burt Reynolds. Even then it must be their own choice.

I do know what that is Hellon...and p.s I am an awesome false lash expert ;) so if youre ever in the states and your eyelashes fall out, I'll fix them for ya hahah

I dont think I am judging someone with a triple d cup just because I think its outrageous and unnatural. I may roll my eyes, but that doesnt mean I wouldnt speak to them or be their friend even, I just think its over the top. ...Heck there is a TON of things my best friends have done that I 100% disagree with, but theyre still like a sister to me. Its not that I judged them or viewed them differently. I dont think theyre a freak, or obssessed, or conceited. I just think we should embrace our bodies and cosmetic surgeries should help us simply when we start to age or need it for medical purposes. But lets keep the boobies at a D. haha! Just an opinon.

Hellon I judge the action and surgery. Not the person. If you saw my aunt, you'd understand why they look ridiculous. She is a beautiful woman who ruined her body. Her breasts look like theh stretched and pulled skin everywhere to make them so big. Her skin is almost that waxy look because its pulled so thin.

Cosmetic surgery, like all technologies is only going to become more powerful, less expensive and much easier to perform. I don't think we're that far off living in a world where you can change sex over the course of a weekend, even change your ethnicity. People who don't ever change their sex will be considered old fashioned...but of course by that point we'll have figured out how to cease aging and our species will not be confined to planet Earth.

I don't really care much about it on a personal level, but then I rolled lucky on the genetics dice and came out with a body I'm fairly happy with. If I'd been born with some major flaw (like birthmarks etc) I wouldn't have a problem getting it fixed. With other people I view it much the same way as I do makeup. If used sparingly and with a focus on being as natural as possible, it can actually have positive results but the tendency is to push it too far. I don't like women who wear heaps of makeup and I think the majority of plastic surgery results have a similar effect.

I have thought about getting a tattoo of hair for my bald spot.

Hahahaha : My bald spots are already tattooed with hair,
my body, with degeneration
and my heart,
with love.

I saw this last night and was thinking about it....

I like what Jane said about how we give people more reasons to feel confident after altering our body/physical features, that is thought-provoking.

Personally, I hate the feeling of spending money or doing anything with needles or surgery. I would never get it. I can see the point Britt made with fixing something that would possibly harm your health in the future, disable or become an obstacle as you grew. I think it's all about intention. Of course, one can decide for one's self since the medicine/technology is available for this. If the intention is to do it to impress others or feel like a more (contributing maybe?) part of the society, I don't really agree with that. If you are comfortable with your skin, know you are beautiful, but want to enhance that beauty, I think it could be okay. I could see it quickly turning into an obsession though.

My brother jokes that my nose is big, which it kind of is lol, but I've never thought of years down the road, ever changing it. It seems like something still out of my control. Something I shouldn't mess with. I would never bother with it because I don't feel that urge to change, and I feel there are a lot more pressing issues. I think it's sad if a person feels the need to in order to land a job, become more of what a sophisticated woman (or man) is, and have more "symmetrical" features.... a few weeks ago I was watching this documentary on Youtube about young Chinese women I believe, undergoing plastic surgery. Some of it was illegal, but still being done behind closed doors at a high cost such as the leg extensions.... then others were interviewed that their ideal woman would have more Western-style beauty. I know South Korea is leading in its number of plastic surgeries done as well.

Kevin...You really need some surgery in a hurry looking at that avatar!!!!

Here you go Chels...just something you may want to read up on re eyebrow embroidery and...if I ever get back to the states I'll keep in mind that you are an eyelash expert...how long would it take you to do both upper lids from scratch...I'm talking individual lashes, not a strand and how muchae would it costae haha!

http://browsandlash.com.au/service/eyebrow-embroidery/

POTP....South Korea is leading in a whole lot of stuff right now and...I go there a fair bit so I know it's very safe and hygienic. Most of the cosmetic surgery is to get rounder eyes...they just love our eye shape. A lot of the younger girls where blue or green contact lenses which looks a little weird with their skin tone and dark hair :)

Hmm, I've never worn fake lashes. I tried once, but I'm no makeup expert.

A lot of my theoretical studies from university have been based around designing the body, more specifically body modification and the cyborg. The cyborg is probably pushing this conversation in a complete other direction as it starts to move away from plastic, but it's the technological advances over the last few years that have altered people's perceptions of what the perfect body is and why most of us strive in some way to change ourselves. I was really intrigued by a lot of the theoretical references I read that compared body modification in the form of cosmetic surgery, tattoos and piercings to the gym and working out. Obviously working out has many health benefits is considered more natural, but in some instances it is used as a tool to completely modify the body. Body building became a phenomenon years ago and here in Aus it's still a craze with my generation following what is known as the legacy of Zyzz; a young man who spent many hours building his body to what he believed was perfection. Apparently he died from steroids but many young males and females are still following exactly what he did as they believe that his idea of the perfect body is completely correct.

Take a look at Anastaysia Shapgina, a woman who used cosmetic surgery and makeup completely alter their face and body to look like Japanese animation characters. I think a lot of you be really interested and shocked.

Also the French artist Orlan. I will never forget sitting in a lecture and watching a video of her undergoing plastic surgery as part of her arts practice. She has had many procedures done including having protruding eyebrows like Mona Lisa as well as what look like bumpy horns on her forehead. I won't go into too much detail but while her work is absolutely crazy her concepts are intriguing.

I personally don't have a problem with cosmetic surgery on others but I pretty much live by the saying each to their own. Do I think people need it? No I don't think for beauty reason anyone should feel like they need it but many people do and if they get it that's up to them. I just think if anyone does they need to be going as natural as possible. Like most people have things is love to change about myself but in some ways I really do like my imperfections, some of them anyway...but not those little lines developing. Those aren't cool.. Aha

^

Actually, Aziz Shavershian aka Zyzz did not die of steroid abuse. His death was the result of a previously undiagnosed congenital heart defect. Something that ran in the family. He possibly cannot have gone through enough cycles to cause heart problems. As annoying as his persona was, he did accomplish enough.

Cyborgs and cosmetic surgery - apples and oranges. I support cybernetic enhancement, most definitely. Cosmetic surgery - subjective.

Hellon it takes me about a half an hr per eye with individual lashes...45 minutes if you want them thicker. I literally have a certificate that says I'm a lash and brow expert :) I did an additional training aside from school. haha. I love it! I'm a perfectionist so they have to be perfect before I let you leave.

Jane I think youd like them. The feeling takes some getting use to, but if you dont wear makeup but have gorgeous eyes, they just make them pop!

Cybernetic enhancement, very inserting

I wore falsies for my wedding and I hated them, so we took them off halfway through lol. I got talked into them by my friends.

I know a lot of people into body building. It's gross to me, especially when they get the orangey looking spray tan. Oompa loompa on steroids. Okay, that was mean. I really wonder why people do that.

I don't agree with the gym being a part of it all. I mean, I guess with body sculpting to the extreme (or anything to the extreme ever). I gained a lot of weight after some bad times in my life, and therefore became unhealthy. Working out will obviously change my body, but it'll also help me get healthy. Maybe it does fall under it all but one of those grey areas where it's physically helping you, rather than just out of vanity? Who knows. I'm rambling at this point. :)

^ "I wore falsies for my wedding and I hated them, so we took them off halfway through lol"

Bet that trick gave the whole church a treat.

The feeling of falsies are kind of itchy when you first get them on, I can seen why people hate them. But they are so cuuteeee.....I love the glam world! People on my Facebook know this, lol

Halfway through pictures, I should say :) HAHA. There are pictures of me like yanking them off, and my friend (who is a lot like Chels) was HORRIFIED. She's like NOOOOOOO, you need them, you need them! lmao

I suppose the thing that interests me about plastic surgery is that is lies on a continuum with things already mentioned like tattoos, piercings and other alterations we make to our body. I think it has a bad rep because of how drastic it can look when it goes wrong.

We do much to change how we look though, and most of it might be temporary, but we still like to do it to feel better about ourselves. I think makeup lies on the same continuum as plastic surgery, just at the other end.

Considering we inevitably spend so much of our lives pretending anyway, I have no problem with plastic surgery. There's almost a kind of honesty to it.
Ideally, of course, you'd want people to be happy with their bodies and not feel compelled to reinforce unreasonable standards of beauty. And you'd want people to spend that much money on seemingly more important issues... but it's their money, their body, their life, and there's lots of people spending ridiculous amounts of money on far more ridiculous things than plastic surgery.

We have many interesting posts in this thread since I logged in.... And it is a pleasure to my eyes!

Thank you all!

The first time I read this post I felt the boundaries of religion speaking, so I was trying to unveil it, to let you bring in the word God!...

"i would simply say its your decision and your life, what you do won't really effect te way I look at you"

^^^I have much respect for you after those lines but would you live up to your words or your faith would blind you to see true Love if this were about your realm ?

Yeah, this has definitely been an interesting topic.

In response to (just) NINs post answering (just) NINs question,
honestly, if my kids decide to get gender change surgery or even I they told me they were gay or really anything that's 'against the bible'. I would tell them that whatever it may be is against the bible and spiritually wrong but I would also tell them that there decisions are there own, if they want to do whatever it is they may want to do, it won't effect the way I look at them because I have my own sin in my life. As a Christian, all I can do is show love, because that is what I've been shown. It's not my place to judge anyone else, but it is my place to make known what I believe and why. But really, everyone has there own convictions. My faith is a personal relationship with The Lord, it's not something that should be use to justify my own actions or condemn others.

10000 times yes!

Haha God resentment!! I guess religions have done the same thing to the notion of God that Stalinism did to the ones of equality: enforcing the things that should come natural and from within.
I do not think anyone were talking about religions here my dear. we were talking about the triviality in the notion of beauty in the market world of today. If you take the superficial world as something acceptable, those above reasoning of abby and hellon and chelssey... they all come to perspective.
In the world that the size of man pines is more concern that the immenseness of his soul, the size of woman breast, more than the vastness of her heart, in the world that the motto is: spend 99 dollars for commercial and only one dollar for your product, of course beauty is portioned like this. Really how many of us would rather to go to art gallery instead of bar, nightclub or any other meat gallery. Even though I accept those things are all parts of the life necessities; like sea has depth and also shallow. So if shallow is your place go ahead, knock yourself out, but you would never meet the mermaid of deep sea. you would never hear the music of deep water.
In the other scale, nobody said that doing a little cosmetic surgery here and there is a capital crime, if it really makes our frivolous and depthless living elevated, we should go ahead, but with moderation. Be aware that obsession in this, is the road to destruction of our soul, our true beauty and ironically, our physical beauty as well.

Do I think that people should have to feel that they need to change something about themselves to be accepted or admired? No. There are things about my face and body that I know would make me prettier if they were changed... but it's my face. I love my friends for their sharp or flat noses, big and small lips, etc. Maybe it's part of being an artsy type - we find the beauty in the odd things. I'm still 25, so maybe I'm speaking too soon, but I don't think I would get it.

However, I definitely get why people do it, and I would not want them to feel bad for doing it or feeling better once it's done. There is a huge pressure (overwhelmingly disproportionately put on women, btw) to be physically beautiful. We already diet, work out, wear makeup, and learn to do our hair a certain way in order to fit certain beauty standards.

We already pay a ton of money and put in a ton of effort for it - the only difference about cosmetic surgery is that it violates the second part of our Beauty Rule, which is:

"You should be beautiful, BUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO WORK FOR IT."

According to "the world," we should be beautiful, but it should be natural. We prize natural makeup over things like red lips and winged eyes, because on some level we are trying to make everyone believe that we don't actually need makeup. We put tons of stuff on our faces to make it look like we aren't wearing anything on our faces. Celebrities are admired when they say "oh, haha, I don't really need to do much more than some spiritual yoga to look like this. I eat cheeseburgers like, all the time!" People would be concerned over a female celebrity who said "Yeah, I'm on a very calorie restricted diet, and I pay people to make me run every single morning."

The difference with surgery is that it's unabashedly, unavoidably unnatural, as compared to our more temporary, accepted forms of unnatural. There is still a lot of shame associate with it, as you can tell by the internet lists named things like "15 celebrities who have had NOSE JOBS OMG!" I think it would be refreshing if more famous ladies came out and said "yes. This is not my natural nose." It might make everyone else feel better for not being naturally gorgeous.

So, basically - we've perpetuated this system where people feel they need to be naturally physically beautiful, look down on them when they're not, and shun them when they do anything to artificially change it. It makes me sad, but I get it. The issue is in a society that makes people lack this confidence, not in the people themselves.

I'm not sure why sex change operations really got tied up into this, but I think it's a separate issue. Most people get cosmetic surgery to look more beautiful, and fit even more closely into social and gender norms. Trans people, if they elect to get an operation, are doing something that's strikingly AGAINST social norms, is likely to lead to conflict in their family and social lives, and is likely not even going to be noticeable to everyone. They're doing something that's emotionally and physically painful, and financially draining, in spite of the fact that it's widely unaccepted. I guess I feel that while most people get plastic surgery for other people, trans folks would be doing it in spite of other people, and more to fit their physical body to the gender identity that they fundamentally feel they are.

(By the way, what does the Bible say about transgender people, specifically? I know there is an OT section about "men shall not wear women's clothes," etc, but it's in the same place as "don't wear synthetic/blended fabrics" and "don't plant different seeds in the same garden," so I'm guessing most people don't really take it literally.)

Sib you asked a really good question about what the Bible says about transgender people. I googled it and tried to see what articles and sermons were out there, because its not a topic I know about.

The verse you mentioned (all in Deuteronomy) is the most commonly quoted, and yes it does go into God's law of house railings, gardens and cloth. One of those weird areas. So I want to research more.

One article I read touched on the fact that the chromosomes are still the same.. so technically your actual genitalia do not matter. If you are a woman who physically becomes a man through surgical means, and are with a man... that's still a man/woman relationship so is it sin? I don't really know what I think on it because its obviously complex.. but here are my personal thoughts:

I don't think physically changing genitalia is something God wants us to do. He created us a specific way and I do not believe He makes errors. Did He put it on a transgender persons heart that they should be the opposite sex? I honestly don't know.. I don't personally think so, but thats not something I can truly prove without looking and studying more. It all comes back to its one of those God and you things. I don't agree with it personally, but that's between you and God.

Ha, lots of rambling and I essentially said nada. I'm gonna ask about it!

David.. to a believer who's faith is foremost in their world, it definitely has everything to do with the discussion :) please don't confuse religion with faith. They are two radically different things :)

Haha Britt I do not think you know what I was talking about. I was responding to: " The first time I read this post I felt the boundaries of religion speaking"
but it is okay I have learned to not expect more.

Edited::

furthermore, exactly my point, I do not confuse these two. I am trying to distinguish between them. Religions are like ...hoods to me, something personal and selfish like team, something that people are ready to cheer for, get exited, all agitated, enraged, go to war, jihad, to crusade, for. But faith is something more personal, it is the relationship with the essence. This is how St. Treresa describes it : ".... that the soul should conceive of things as if there is nothing but God and itself in the world"