So...

I was hosting for a year, I knew who all judges were..

and you posted this thread, so are obviously not judging still.

and you post game threads or interesting youtube clips to spike conversation, neither of which ever relate to your complaints.

so in a small sense, we do know what you do and dont do around here.

with your first paragraph, thats what Im saying though, if thats your opinion and you find it a problem, I get it. Glad you pointed out something that we could tweak actually. But you never post a solution. .

What do you want judges to vote on? Do you agree with making a list? should we publicly make one together and have judges vote on it?

We cant keep complaining and not suggesting what to fix.

"I dont know what the hell the lollypop analogy is, but Im not a teenie bop little girl. I post poetry and my songs on facebook and get more responses there than here."

calm down you getting angry again you really have problem reading what I mean I did not mean you are that girl I used exaggeration to sink my point.
gosh how could you judge people's poetry when you misunderstand a simple conversation like this?? I know you are nerves now . I am done here you are not hearing anything I say and keep on defending yourself in which I did not even once said anything against you.
so good night

Wow...I wish we could have conversations using are voices...I curse people...its a filthy habit, but its not anger. cripe.

when Im angry its badddddd.

how can you judge poetry when you are so hard to decipher half the time?.... were we getting personal now or??

Jesus, now I'll get mean.

*finds dead horse*
- oh theres one!

*beats it*

<---------------Suggestions ------------------>

1._ read each individual poem as if it was to be your lover, decipher it, figure out what its content is about, but don't let it fool you into believing that is the one just because of the first impression.

Suggestions:

-Bulldoze PnQ.

-Rebuild.

-Do background check, lie detector test, IQ tests, and sanity tests on all members before accepting community members.

Goodnight.

Can we get something straight here before we continue...I was not complaining, merely stating an observation which I'm more than happy to stand by....I was able to predict on an average of 95% these last few months, who would win when they posted a new poem.

I was under the impression that there were certain guide lines that the judges were advised on...perhaps not anymore? I have done my fair share of judging for contests on the main boards and, it is easier when the poem is anonymous (although certain poets have a very distinct style)...maybe something worth looking at though?

I think the anonymous part can't be done without Janis, and with the very distinct style, we can't do anything about it. The anonymous aspect will not work either, even if Janis implemented it.

Read each poem like its to be my lover?

well...Im single, so my lover is non exsistant...If I read the poem as a non existant, then there is no poem, ya see?

anddddd Im pretty sure Britts lover hunts and farts....so thatd be a bit tricky too.

Hellon , shocker, you suggested something Janis has to fix. :/ Any Janis fixes should just be chucked off the suggestion box, though I like the suggestion.....

which brings me to why I say, bulldoze this place and if any mod truly cares about it like they act like, then rebuild a poetry community so we can install these suggestions and not rely on a dead beat owner.

Janis wouldn't be needed :) Instead of posting new poems to our account...if we think we have a winner we nominate it ourselves (let's see how shy/bold some of us really are haha) Send it to a mod the mod posts it here and then...we all get to judge/vote....probably wouldn't work but...hey, you did ask for an idea....:)

"Read each poem like its to be my lover?
well...Im single, so my lover is non exsistant...If I read the poem as a non existant, then there is no poem, ya see?"

That would explain why I am still single, nah? And also the important of getting to know someone, and the importance of reading a poem to the point of falling in love with its structure, it's content, its creativity.. etc.

But also, I guess that would explain why I haven't found the poem I'm looking for. It's non existent. no poem deserves a 10.

Edit: I like your suggestion Hellon, but wouldn't that be trouble some for the mods? I actually think it will be a good idea for an experiement.

It may be troublesome..not sure...Mods? but, I doubt there'd be the same volume of poems coming through each week if we were self-nominating.

There are a lot of poetry sites online, a lot of contests, and a lot of different approaches for how to judge, how to comment, how to even get your work out there. Allpoetry.com even gives commenters easy fill in the blank style structure, with specific instructions to end positively (I could be wrong, but I thought I saw buttons you could use to say "keep going!" or "well done!" ...Something of that ilk.)

Personally, I think rules and commenting/judging structures dampen the ability of judges to be honest and writers to be creative. If we had judging rules on here, I'd probably toss them out and ignore them. Nothing personal, just I'm not about to follow someone else's idea of what's good or bad when I'm perfectly capable of deciding for myself. Not to mention, if I don't write my poetry to please someone else, why should I judge to please someone else? No thanks.

But what I'm really saying is, there are a ton of sites, a ton of options, a ton of competitions and site-wide challenges out there. Why, oh why, is the specific formatting of this one teeny tiny contest so important that it needs to be debated again and again and again? I think it works fine as is. But if I didn't, I'd try to expand my horizons and try some other contests first before tearing this one apart.

That would require the mods to make an account, all under the same name, post the poems to them (once people nominate anonymously), then judges vote....the mods already 'do a lot', I doubt theyd want anything added to their list..and when we suggested more mods, they turned it down cuz 'they got this'.

even if that worked...we wouldnt be able to get notified if someone commented on our winning poem because it wouldnt be on our account.

Oh! oh! Also,

*pushes up nerd glasses*

if you want to be technical, no one can post a poem that isnt theirs.

null and void.

. Not to mention, if I don't write my poetry to please someone else, why should I judge to please someone else? No thanks.

Finally!! ^^^ where have you been. Im backed up!

If you want to be technical, no one can post a poem that isnt theirs.
^^^^

Not sure what you mean here...when a member hosts a contest they post all entries anonymously...don't they? I meant something along the same lines...nominate you own poem...send it to the mod account, they post it here on a certain day each week and we all get to vote. After that all authors are free to post to their account so they will still get any comments/votes due to them?

Edit

if I don't write my poetry to please someone else, why should I judge to please someone else? No thanks

When you write...for yourself is fine but, as a judge I believe you have more to consider than just yourself...your judgement puts these poems on the front page of this site after all and I think this remark, from a previous judge is a little flippant?

Ohhh I thought you meant we still nominate others, the mods would post them.

But Im still confused....how would it get to the front page 'anonymously'....or theyd vote while the poems were anonymous, but then the mods would have to vote?? to make sure they get to the front page?

Soooo. youre suggesting limiting judges then in general? and its a public vote? or by 'we' you mean judges?

OK...say twenty members nominate their own poems...like I said, I expect the volume to go way down if self-nominating. The cut off time for nominated poems would be the same or similar to it is now, I think that would give the mods time enough to count the votes still? Then...it would just be a case of one of them notifying the three winners in time for them to post to their account and one mod to vote on their placings? Like I said...you asked for a suggestion Bah!!!! you got a goofy one I think :)

EDIT

Sorry Chels...I meant we as in Joe Blogs the public...rather than 5 judges...do away with all the stress they seem to have.

Hellon, in that case, not only would all members voting have to be prepared to vote regularly (so as not to slack off periodically and change the odds for the nominated poems of that week), they'd also have to leave legitimate comments regularly and put in weekly effort.

While that alone might not be a problem, accountability would be. If you think favoritism is bad now with only a few anonymous judges, what do you think is going to happen when everyone can nominate and everyone can judge?

Off the top of my head alone, the simplicity of sending out mass messages to have people vote for your poem in exchange for comments is just too easy. Who's going to keep track? Who's going to monitor every single person on the site at once to make sure that everything remains fair? Who's going to watch out for people making duplicate accounts, roping in non-regular members, etc. to swing the vote? The mods have enough to deal with. It sounds like a total mess.

Goofy one, but I actually think this idea might work best for a monthly one...

Where we are given the chance to each work on a piece and like seriously try our best.. I think their would be better poems o(^.^o)

I just think the problem here is 'mod this, mod that'.

dont get me wrong mods, you do a fine job, but adding your list when you already claim to have busy lives seems harldy fair.

Theyd need more help.

we can eliminate judges.
do something to what youre suggesting.

if we get a host again (raises hand). *suggestion btw*

send all votes to a host (either self nominated or others, however you decide)...the host organizes it, like she did, posts them to be publicly voted over the weekend....and the top 3 poems with the most votes, the hosts sends to mods. mods vote them to go to front page.

winner winner chicken dinner.

Hellon, in that case, not only would all members voting have to be prepared to vote regularly (so as not to slack off periodically and change the odds for the nominated poems of that week), they'd also have to leave legitimate comments regularly and put in weekly effort

^^^^

Isn't that what the judges commit to right now?

While that alone might not be a problem, accountability would be. If you think favoritism is bad now with only a few anonymous judges, what do you think is going to happen when everyone can nominate and everyone can judge?

Not everyone can nominate...you only nominate your own poems and, if they're anonymous, how can favouritism come into it?

Off the top of my head alone, the simplicity of sending out mass messages to have people vote for your poem in exchange for comments is just too easy. Who's going to keep track? Who's going to monitor every single person on the site at once to make sure that everything remains fair? Who's going to keep track of people making duplicate accounts, roping in non-regular members, etc. to swing the vote?

^^^^

I hadn't considered this...perhaps I'm too honest :) but, at the moment, isn't there the possibility that some members may be doing just that right now to have their poems nominated in the first place?

It sounds like a total mess.

^^^^

Yeah...you're probably right haha!!!

I dont know if I like the self nominating.

Itd be different but eh...

and how can it remain anonymous? we dont list names, but how will they win?? because theyd have to wait to post it to their account to keep the animosity. and then hope a mod says 'hey your poem won, post it so we can vote on it'' ??

I guess thats how self nominating helps....so youd have to write your own poem, kind of like a challenge a week, and wait to post it?

Well...I doubt I'd self-nominate any of my poems but...hey, I've never felt comfortable on the front page anyway so...it wouldn't bother me but, I think it would be interesting!!!!

Like I said further up...there would be a time frame set up similar to the weekly right now...you can only nominate until a certain time and then it closes. The mods...and I'm only saying them because it's them who post the congrats thread right now..a host would be fine, then post the entries on a Friday for example and the public gets the weekend to read and vote...Sunday night that also closes and the mods notify the winners to post to their account where they then (mods or host) press the 10/7/4 buttons and...voila..the winners appear on the front page as normal....I'm making this up as I go along so...may need some fine tuning...or major tuning I think LMAO!!!

Just have to reply separately to this comment from Colm...

Fact is some poets are better known than others, some write better poems more often than others might. Better known poets are more likely to be read and more likely to therefore be nominated, that is always been the way, fair or not

^^^^

I would say we are on a par as far as being known on this site goes yes? and yet...

posted 31st December...5 comments...(not all good I will admit) 5 votes and 115 visits and it's not even a week old?

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/misc/poems.php?id=1230028

my poem...posted 13th November

2 votes...no comments 91 visits

http://www.best-love-poems.com/poems.php?id=1228084

Predicting Colm's poem as a winner this week :) or at least to have an HM...since the judges have changed over...last week it would definitely have won...

I've probably missed a lot reading through these posts but I'll try to reply as best I can.

Firstly, anonymous wouldn't work for many reasons as posted above. Firstly it'd need Janis to do it properly and secondly, it would probably end up not being anonymous at all and if/when 'well-known' people win, others will still come up with the complaint that it was easy to tell their writing style, or people knew who wrote what by sharing in pm's etc.

The idea of sending poems to the mods wouldn't work either for a few reasons I can see. First, poems can only be nominated Monday-Friday (one of the contest changes people wanted that Janis actually was around to implement) so its impossible for mods or anyone to nominate it and then give the points. It would also mean all mods being around on Sunday evenings or whenever to vote and also try to work around glitch votes, the whole process would be too open to human error and also after a while less and less people would be nominating poems via pm and it'd be an even smaller pool of people being considered each week.

***** SUGGESTION***** (in case you miss it in my long post)

What I can do is organise a monthly contest. Anybody can send one poem to me or the mods, I send it to the judges anonymously, they vote and I or a host announce the winner on the forums. That person can be 'poet of the month' with all winning poets of the month going forward to a 'poet of the year' competition in December? But I don't see how it can be done that these poems would be on the front page as weekly winners, it would have to be done in conjunction with the weekly contest. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't turn out to be the revelation or miracle cure we all seem to need.

Just to reply to a few people:

Hellon, what do you want me to do, tell people not to comment on or view my poem and comment on yours instead? Or should my poem not be considered because I have won before and am 'well-known' as you say? I don't know how many times you have brought this up, its either judges voting by name or if not that then its by club. If you feel that strongly about it you could volunteer your services as a judge and judge who you think is worthy to win.

To Everlasting:

'I think on my term it was when Abracadabra got the top scores. But those poems were good. So I understand the feeling, and the stress coming from both sides: from being a judge and from being a nominator.'
^^
You were a judge and you said they were good and your opinion counts, yet you are complaining of favouritism amongst judges now?

As I said way up at the top, three poems win and many more don't. 5 judges can never decide on 3 universally best poems. No matter what poems win or don't win, there will be people who don't agree with the winners or think they are 'shit.'

Also, it would be favouritism and bias to not consider people who had won previously or for the judges to feel under pressure to pick new winners.

Chelsey:
"Jesus, now I'll get mean.

*finds dead horse*
- oh theres one!

*beats it* "

haha let me tell you something; you beat dead animal, they are even more innocent than the life ones, so they are powerless in this world, but they are going to beat you back in the other world. Like my father said: if a blind man catches someone sleeping with his wife, the beating is nothing you can imagine.

By the way beating dead animal is against the law in the Harry Potter world; they allow these things only in places like P&Q. So I hope you are not expecting to see a unicorn for long long time, beating a poor dead horse. Didn't they teach you can not abuse your power like this??

I agree Colm these suggestions, even though clever, are not practical at all.

added:
I do not think Everlasting's complain was about all the judges I think the main focus was about the last three month.

You take everything too literal. . beating a dead horse is an expression....not me beating dead animals and hoping to see unicorns. .. whatever the heck you mean by that one too. Your responses are so comical, you should write a childrens book! :)

I hate Harry Potter anyways.

You were a judge and you said they were good and your opinion counts, yet you are complaining of favouritism amongst judges now?

^^ yes, and I stand to what I said. The difference is that is obvious when one poem was chosen because of favoristim. Here, by favoritism, I mean that one judge whether intentional or NOT, it's drawn to the poem because they know the writer. It's hard to explain. But during my term, I had the people I talked to the most, and I read their poems over and over again, as well as other people's poems, but I realized that I knew what my "friends" poems were about because I talked to them on a daily basis. But also every time I read one of my "friends" poems, I literally felt impress by how their writing was improving and I was compelled to vote for them yet I didn't.

I set upon my mind to re-read every poem, and to forget that they were my friends, so I started paying attention to each poem as if one single poem was an individual. Some had a lot to say while others didn't say much, yet if I read them again those that didn't say much, I realize there was a lot more in them that I thought or vs. And abracadabra's poems, at least those poems that won with the highest score were entitled to the title. She's written others like "happiness," and just like other poems they are good but in my opinion not for the front page. I don't mean to offend the writers nor the judges. I seriously think there's a lot of talent in PnQ and I would like to see the front page with poems that move people, that inspire people, with the best of the best poems. I'm not only targeting the judges, in fact, I'm targeting everyone: the nominators, the writers.

I don't mind seeing the same writer in the front page, so long as the poem speaks for itself. Yet How pititful it is that I can't even explain what I mean what the best of the best is, as that would only be my opinion. Any who, I guess I'm just being selfish and bias by thinking just about myself and what I want.

P.s. I actually don't have a favorite writer. I read any poem and I search for poems in the whole site and in Allpoetry.com as well. That's how I have found plagiarize poems in this site before. Or how I go ( used to) and nominate poems without even knowing the author or without even letting them know I nominated it. Janis needs to do something about the love category, many love poems are not nominated because of the glitch - I guess. It's troublesome to go and ask the author to change it to other category.

A lot of things that you say is right Everlasting and I know that you did a good job when you were a judge. I think you make a lot of good points but I think you are making 2 assumptions that are a bit off:
1) That there is a pool of at least a few inspiring, 'best of the best' poems on here to pick from every week that are being overlooked.
2) That the current and/or other judges don't do what you do by voting for what they think are the best poems. Unless you are a mind reader it is impossible to tell what other judges are thinking but it seems like you assume they vote for their friends and the name attached as opposed to voting for the poem.

I'm sorry but it still comes across as contradictory to me that you could defend your own picks (I agree with you on your judging methods) but then turn around and say the other judges aren't picking the best poems and that they are showing favouritism.

'How pititful it is that I can't even explain what I mean what the best of the best is, as that would only be my opinion.'
^^
I think you actually hit the nail on the head here because it largely comes down to judges opinions. Other judges may have a different opinion on what the best of the best is, but you may be mistaking that difference in opinion for favouritism.

Solution: Don't read any poetry on PnQ at all... ever. The only time you should read poetry is when you are a judge, in which case you should only read the nominated poems. Secondarily, only read one poem per poet. Never repeat. Dwelling on individual poet's work can have the unfortunate side affect of finding a common interest in said poet's work. Which, in turn, can lead to favoritism.
On second thought, don't talk to members either. Talking to people can potentially form a relationship, which can also lead to favoritism. Definitely bad. Don't join clubs, as clubs can form an unintentional bond for appreciating (and therefore voting on!) each other's poetry.
Set up shop in the deepest, darkest corners of the messageboards and change your name and profile picture often so as to confuse would-be friends. Stay out of any active thread, in fact, don't even read the threads or the thread titles, so as not to be influenced by site politics. Live the nomadic PnQ lifestyle. Eat lots of beans. This is the only way to have truly impartial, unbiased judges. Definitely something we should be striving for.
Problem solved. Yr welcome.

This discussion started out with dire potential & took a surprising turn to the creative.

Ddavidd: all I pointed out was that you are complaining about the natural consequences of your statements. You are fully aware that I do not seek to dampen any discourse. In fact when was the last time any mod edited out opinion, argument or did more than say "Everyone, breathe!" ??

I know that Larry : I refer to your era in the P&Q as the best time. Your tolerance and intelligence is so overwhelming and pleasant, like the breath of fresh air to me. You are a real Godfather to all of us.

Narp your clever inclination to sidetracks can not erase the main path. As I always said : you can hide behind obvious but you never could hide behind transparency.

Aw, man! Too bad I already ate all my popcorn!

We need a like button for comments

RM, I'm not hiding behind either. It was a genuine suggestion.
Try it, see if it works.