So...

Where is my award for best leading actress?? come on...

you all know you'd vote for me :)

*refills sibs popcorn*

Let's see:

1) That there is a pool of at least a few inspiring, 'best of the best' poems on here to pick from every week that are being overlooked.

^^ I'm actually aware of that... that not all the weeks have "best of the best poems." That's why I'm also targeting nominators and writers, not just the judges. I know there are best of the best poems in PnQ that aren't going to the list. I'm also aware that it's almost impossible to spot them if not everyone participates, and that those who go to the list is because they are active. I know they Deserve their poems to be consider for the front page.

I'm also aware that the poems being posted can be personal or not, can be written on the spot or not, or are written for contests, etc And that the quality of the poems will vary, yet each poem is good on its own way but only a few of them are front page material. I mean I feel there should be a way to involve more people instead of just closing ourselves into a particular group, I just don't know how. But by opening to more people, the chances of finding those poems will be greater.

Now on this:

That the current and/or other judges don't do what you do by voting for what they think are the best poems. Unless you are a mind reader it is impossible to tell what other judges are thinking but it seems like you assume they vote for their friends and the name attached as opposed to voting for the poem.

^^
Actually, I think they vote for what they think is best with a few exceptions. That's why I mention " favoritism whether intentional or NOT." I mean whether the judge realize it or not. It happens.

I'm sorry but it still comes across as contradictory to me that you could defend your own picks (I agree with you on your judging methods) but then turn around and say the other judges aren't picking the best poems and that they are showing favouritism.

^^ oh, don't be sorry. It's okay. What we are trying to show here is clearly that there is favoritism ( intended or NOT), not whether all the poems I picked during my term were the best poems because I am saying that on some weeks I had regrets and that was due to ... I guess my inability to completely follow that judging method...

Narph mentioned this:

"Secondarily, only read one poem per poet. Never repeat. Dwelling on individual poet's work can have the unfortunate side affect of finding a common interest in said poet's work."

^^ haha, she may be kidding but it's kind of like that. We can grow attach to certain type of style and it doesn't allow us to see the quality in the others. But I think she is kidding... first, I had a hard time picking my first three. Then after having picked my top three, I had the hardest time on choosing the scores... and that's where I regret my scorings and my poor judgement for not being able to choose which one was a 10, or 7. . during some weeks. Those scores made a difference. If only I had commented first before sending the scores. It's hard to be a judge and not be bias.

But overall, I think I did not do a good job as a judge. In fact, I feel I did an awful job specially in some weeks. However, I defend abracadraba's poem because that was one of the best poems I stumbled upon during my term. I also mentioned that "there have been weeks where the winners inspired shallowness" rather than during all the weeks, this ties down with the reasons why I'm also targeting the nominators and the writers ( which I am also targeting myself ).

I mean I'm thankful for the judges work. They give their time and also they go into a lot of pressure. I know what is like. They have a life. I'm also thankful for those who hold contests. So I try to show that I'm thankful as much as possible by either stopping by in the weekly threads and congratulate the winners and Hm's even when I didn't write any poem during that week. There have been weeks when I don't stop by or when I only congratulate the judges but not the winners. Or I congratulate the mod team. Etc. And when I don't stop by, those are probably when I don't agree with the winners or It slipped my mind. But out of respect to the judges, I prefer to remain silence. Right now, I only "spoken" because this is the time to speak and figure out what's going on and how to get more people interested as well as to find a common ground in judging. .. as well as this is a great opportunity to learn ...

Other judges may have a different opinion on what the best of the best is, but you may be mistaking that difference in opinion for favouritism.

^^ hmm.. I don't think I am, I still think is Favoritism, preference whether intended or not. But I do want to point out that this happens only for certain weeks not for all, and that I feel there are factors that influence it. Out of this term, I can tell for instance, Narph's poem Orange --> Front page material. There are others, but it's pointless to be naming this and that was and is not.

So what's the problem with the weekly contest in General! my opinion?

Favoritism whether intended or NOT. What is the solution? There is no solution. As long as we are humans, we will always have a preference whether we see it or not. Whether we admit it or not.

And Narph...

lol.. you have a good sense of humor.
First of all, I can't stop reading poetry on PnQ.... or any poetry site... sadly, at least not until I find the poem I'm looking for.
Second, that solution is too harsh. Yet how in the world did you read my mind? that's sort of what I did ...with a few exceptions though.

And Thirdly... I am Mexican and I do happen to eat lots of beans and taquitos... they are idk delicious?

but eating them didn't seem to make judging easier or to make me truly impartial. There has to be some other way... there has to be some type of way to understand and learn how to truly be impartial.

-------

So in a way, I like Hellon's suggestions... couple with Nicko's suggestion as well. ( from past conversation about the weekly).

It may sound goofy like Hellon said but it could actually be put into a trial.

I mean what if we follow with how the weekly contest is at the time. There will be weeks where everyone is happy and there will be weeks where not everyone will be, but realistically there's not much one can do...

How to explain myself....

Okay, we let the weekly contest run like it's running right now. The judges do what they have been doing, the nominators nominate like they have been doing...

But the difference will be that after the third week, those who want to self nominate their poems send them to the Mod team. They have only... let's say Monday to do so.

Then the mods post those poems for voting on Tuesday ( anonymous). The weekly judges rather new judges (to give the weekly judges a break)... pick their top three poems... They will have tuesday, Wednesday, and part of Thursday to pick their choices and send their votes to the mods like judges usually do, but this time only taking into account those poems in the voting thread and not the nomination list. ( oh and those self nominating people cannot be a judge)

After the mods have the results, They can ask the Winners to post their poems so they can go into the nomination list and Win based on the judges results.... I am hoping those self nominated poems will have more quality than those just written to post in our accounts as they could have more time to focus on one particular poem....
It will sort of be like a contest. Which will require participation. But it will not be weekly rather in a longer time. A set day. So those people self nominating poems will have to be on the look to post their poems on Friday so their poems could be nominated that day, and the mods could just click on the buttons to send the winners to the front page.. and post the results, either on friday or on Monday.

After that, the weekly contest continues working like usual. The weekly judges now retake their place and focus on the nomination list.

I mean this could be set, every month or every two months? The weekly judges could take a break for one week. And those who are self nominating, could work on one particular poem.. focus on improving their writing... idk

If not, then we an continue with the weekly as always and once again, trust that our judges fight against favoritism... the non intended.

Wait, what?! The beans didn't improve your judging experience?? You must have the wrong beans, hmm. :)

I have no problem with trying something new, if that's a strong consensus on the site. But I don't really want to interrupt the current structure if there is a significant enough portion of people who are already satisfied with the process as is. Not really sure how anyone would poll that, but I'd be curious to find out.

To put one thing in perspective: I'm flattered that you thought my poem was front page worthy, but if I had been judging my poems that week, I can think of a great deal of non-winning pieces by other people that I think are better, not to mention other things I've written. So even there it comes down to preference. (And I'm not sure if you can call it personal favoritism if I would logically vote for one of my poems over another because it fits more with my conceptions of "good" poetry... Guess it's lucky we aren't allowed to vote for ourselves, hah!) Just food for thought.

I read 10 or so posts and have more catching up to do, but for now, I want to share a couple thoughts.

A. People enjoy complaining. It's human to feel unsatisfied.
B. Judging is imperfect because judges are imperfect.
C. It's tiresome when a member nit-picks about something they've not volunteered to do.
D. There's nothing appealing about judging. It's weekly work and it's thankless.
D. Crapping on the judges efforts is like grumbling because someone gave you a gift you don't like.
E. There are real changes we can make to improve the site contest - more volunteers would mean a larger pool for mods to pick from; a green J by members' names who have judged would be a small way of saying thank you; the nominations page could be anonymous to lessen bias...
F. Most changes require Janis, but not all. Colm posted an interesting idea above.

G. Thanks for the excitement. PnQ needs a little bit of drama.

~

Hellon, what do you want me to do, tell people not to comment on or view my poem and comment on yours instead?

^^^^

Colm...Don't be ridiculous. I used both these poems as comparisons to back up what I said earlier. You are a club member, a mod and appear to be in the 'popular'crowds and this, I feel reflects on the votes/comments you have received this week. I am in neither of the above mentioned fractions by choice because I have been in a few clubs over the years and know that most encourage commenting on fellow members'poems. I also know for a fact that one club in particular had a rule where you could not post a new poem before commenting on two others from club members...that is so wrong and I will never be part of that scene again. As a result, I don't get as many of my poems read as I did before but...I also know that this is not a reflection on poor work, as Luce has said...and I do back her...there is favouritisms all over this site where intentional or not.

As for my suggestion...did you even discuss it in the mod room before discarding it completely?

EDIT

Jane...you posted just ahead of me. I believe the dig about not volunteering as a judge was directed at me so...let me answer you. I am never in any one country often enough to commit to a three month stint and, as I would hate to say yes and have to pull out as seems to happen regularly with the judges you have, I have declined. I will say I gave one of the mods the dates when I would be available as a stand in and...was never called upon although there were more than a couple of instances when I surely should have been. And...to say I've NEVER judged before is wrong...maybe you should check back to the week of 2nd December?

I wouldn't say it was a "dig" at you, unless you're willing to admit that half of your comments are "digs" at someone, haha.

If you have judged, I stand corrected. Pardon my crap memory and a big thank you for your services. Did your judging style receive criticism, or was it the picture of perfection?

I have not made a dig at anyone on this thread...I started out by making a GENERAL observation and someone took it personally. Most of my posts were regarding finding a solution and...it appears that it was dismissed without discussion..to bad, at least I tried.

I won't bother answering your other question.

Unfortunately, general observations can be digs if worded properly. I think we both posted excellent examples.

I would like to say thank you though, Hellon. It's nice to have something PnQ related to get worked up about :) The site is too unperturbed these days.

I'll leave on the note that I am very, very thankful for our judges. I'm sorry to those of you who feel under-appreciated, but I think most of us appreciate your time and work a whole lot. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Unfortunately, general observations can be digs if worded properly

^^^^

Yes, but surely they would be considered general digs and not personal ones? I mean...when I made my first general observation I had absolutely no idea who the recent judges were...they dobbed themselves in because they took it personally don't you see?

A well...you know me...thorn on your side...pain in the ass...HELL ON 4 WHEELS LOL!!!

I was a judge during the Sept-Dec Term and I liked the experience. It was real fun to read poems, to provide in comments for them and I must say, I am not affected by anyone who says "It was poorly judged" because I feel Judging is subjective, everyone has their own taste for poems. I always preferred reading the poems and overlooked who wrote them for I was here to judge poems and not poets, but I would say, that we as judges are really helpless in a way, we see the same poets appearing in the nomination page and I feel we all did a fair job of selecting the best out of them. I think if anyone is to be blamed are those who nominate, for they give us the same options every time and here we are, coming forth to help this site, but still criticized for letting the same poets appear on the front page. It really isn't any favoritism I feel and I really think the mods do a good job by being so disciplined in the execution of the contest and also the judges.

Please let us all make this effort of making this site a better one and if you all really feel the itch of criticism, kindly come forward and volunteer to make it better.

Thank you!

It's great you enjoyed the experience, Amreen. Perhaps I spoke to soon when I said there's nothing appealing about judging. With the right attitude, it most certainly can be rewarding.
Thanks for your refreshing post.

Yes, indeed was this a good experience. I can very well understand what you guys go through by continuous shifting of responsibility for the weekly contest. I like your Thank you PMs on my judging comments' reply, they act as an acknowledgement to my work, the time I spent on judging the entire term.

Likewise, I feel, we all should thank you Mods for being keen in making this site running and just everyone who participate in the Discussions too.

Criticisms would remain locked in this thread soon, but your efforts for making this site running is going to be continued. Life isn't going to stop and I feel, Britt, Narph and just any judge who did the term judging were spectacular in their work!

No popcorn here for me, cough medicine and tissues while reading. I am still trying to catch up but it's nice to see PnQ booming.

What is worthy of the front page is subjective. It is same when my boyfriend and I walk into an art gallery and he cringes my admiration of an Arthur Boyd piece. We are both creative practitioners and as much as I'd like to say that my opinion is much more tasteful than his I can't.

I am sorry if any of our previous judges were offended by what has been said in this thread, you all do a wonderful job even if I don't always agree with your selections ;). I really appreciate everyone who volunteers and takes the time to get involved.

As I said I am still catching up and I look forward to seeing if any practical solutions have been made.

Oh and if Colm's poem wins this week I am stealing your crystal ball, Hellon.

What is worthy of the front page is subjective.

^^^

meaning... https://www.google.com.au/#q=subjective

I have a preference for haiku/senryu but...most are not well written on this site and..I will put mine at the top of the list of bad posts but...it's my personal preference and yet...I would not vote or nominate one that is below par just because it's my favourite style...and a style I 'think 'I like because most of the other poems by this author were to my liking...

Half of the poems on the front page do not even have a comment on them so...what does that tell you about the person who nominated in the first place....OMG...a poem by X member...totally must be good, I will be sure to read it later?I've given it a quick once over on the road out the door...comment on it soon and...yeah..it goes on from there...in the mean time...nominated and...they seldom come back with promised comment....

Judges aren't professional poets to let go of their emotions towards a certain poem and grade it according to specific criteria. We are all amateurs here who want to enjoy reading, writing and sharing thoughts on each others' pieces.

And regarding favoritism, I think you can put it as 'my taste', meaning that all people favor certain poets over others because they click in tastes!
For example, I favor Khaled Hosseini over the worlds' writers. I am totally biased towards him. And whenever there is a new KH book coming, I instantly buy it. Blindly, you can say, favoring it over all other books, which could be (more) epic.
It's a matter of preference.
So I think the contest is great as it is. There's no need to make a fuss about it. There are things in life that are waaaaay worthy of your nitpicking.

There are things in life that are waaaaay worthy of your nitpicking.

I think you missed the word more in this statement but hey...I get your drift and..once again..it's not right IMO to put your personal preferences first..if you want to buy a book by your favourite author then..that's fine...I've already stated I have preferences further up here but...when you have been given the judge's seat you PERSONAL preferences should no longer count...

Edit...

and just for those who still think I slack off here..ask Luce about the dramas we had when I was judging one of her contests...the one where she provided the pictures...one was of a bull that everyone else could see but me! I was overseas...had no access to any of the pictures...at the time the site had also locked me out of the pm system so...it was very stressful but..we still had a winner in the end...so...normally don't like to blow my own horn but when someone shits onyou you sometimes... just have to stand up and be counted....

"when you have been given the judge's seat you PERSONAL preferences should no longer count..."

^ maybe it's true if, again, we are professional writers/critiques.. afterall, no body wants to sit for hours judging tens of poems according to certain points, etc.. it would be dull and un-enjoyable...

This is a long-ass thread and I've skimmed over it, so please ignore me if this is just a rehash, but...

HONEST QUESTION:

Do you all think it's really, serious, honestly possible to completely leave your personal preferences out of judging? I kind of don't. I think most of us operate on little more than a gut feet for what we like and dislike - honed, perhaps, by the experience of reading a LOT of poems.

I mean, I get that thinking "Jane is my friend and she wrote a poem so I should vote for her" is way out of line... but I also don't really think that happens. If it ever ever does, there are still 4 other judges, at least one of whom would also have to vote for it.

But much more likely, I think we could tend to be biased towards personal preferences for style. But how could anyone completely root that out? I can say "I tend to like free verse poems with good internal rhythm and fresh juxtapositions of words and ideas." Does that mean that I should purposefully NOT choose poems that have those things?

If anything, maybe knowing your own biases and preferences thoroughly - and acknowledging them - makes you more able to pick out good poems that DON'T meet your normal preferences. ie. I tend to think a lot of rhyming poems are hokey, but a really great one, I will notice regardless.

I guess what I'm asking is: Does anyone have a deliberate way of avoiding voting according to stylistic preferences? (As for myself, I tend to be overly-conscious of my motivations, all the way down, to the point where if I think about it too much, I don't even know what I really think anymore. Ha!) But how do you know when you have swept aside all your biases and have finally arrived at your completely objective judging face? Can that even exist?

---

On a slightly different topic - I do think that there is some mystique attached to names sometimes. I'm not super active these days, but I have been in the past, and I was a mod, etc., so people have been exposed to my writing. I think if I had been writing more regularly, I wouldn't have had the percentage of wins I've had lately - and yet something like 2 of my last 4 posted poems have "WIN" tags pinned on them. I wonder if we have a tendency to say "Oh, Sibs posted something new. I like her writing. I should vote for her!"

On their own, I would not have expected these poems to win. They were just little quiet things that I wrote for myself. But I wonder to what extent we treat the poems of better-known poets as extensions of their entire body of work, rather than as individual pieces.

(This isn't to say that the judges who voted for them were being sketchy or didn't know what they were doing, etc. I can readily trust in their judgment. It's just a possibility that doesn't hurt to think about.)

I find that if there are grammatical mistakes, spelling errors, weird punctuation or line breaks, I'm much less likely to like the poem. Unfortunately, that goes for pretty much all styles of poetry, too... I just don't want to put something on the front page that has glaring errors, I feel like it invalidates the integrity of the site? In that sense, I may be too picky, and that definitely could be an unfair bias that I have. So I try my hardest to get past such things, but still, it's a little hard.

Stylistically, I don't think it's possible for us to separate our judging from what types of poems we like or don't like (we're human, right?). Only I think judging can be less about liking the poem and more about being in awe of the poem. I like reading things I feel like I've never read before, that are outlandish or clever, and that make me view the world in a new way. So if an amazing poem pops up that focuses on a new idea and drags me down with it, I would probably want to praise that, even if it is full of mistakes.

I think I'm rambling. But basically, I guess it's about balancing your likes with being open to new things. How could you fault someone for that?

To be honest, someone is always going to be unhappy with who wins, and that's okay. We have other competitions on this site, and there are other competitions online. I've had poems win on here and get only one or two comments... and I've had poems win in site contests and get five or six. It's all perspective. I don't think being on the front page necessarily attracts more attention to a poem. But I guess the WIN buttons are a nice shade of pink.

:) :)

Locking this at 100 ... Feel free to start another one. ;)