#freethenipple ? Your thoughts.

I didn't know this was a thing, but apparently it is. There is a movement right now called #freethenipple to make it a "norm" for women to be able to walk around topless, because everyone has nipples, and it's being considered sexist to require women to cover theirs up while men don't have to.

It's probably no surprise to anyone that I disagree with this movement (lol). I ran across this article and thought it was interesting, and made the same points that first came to mind:

http://www.kevinathompson.com/freethenipple/

What do you think?

Feminism gone too far methinks.

This could only work if women and men no longer saw the female breast as a sexual object.

You only have to look at the advertising world to see that this will never happen.

I am in favour (us Brits have a 'u' in favour) of equality in the work place. We had a female prime minister who in my opinion was the best prime minister of my life time.
We have a female monarch, who is probably our greatest living monarch. The next best two are both female, Victoria and Elizabeth 1st.

For true equality there needs to be more women in board rooms and as CEO's

More female police chiefs.

In this country only Tennis is a sport that women are as famous as the men.
I could name as many female tennis players as I could male.
But I couldn't name any female footballers, (soccer) snooker players, golfers etc.

If this free the nipple ever came to pass, then only exhibitionists would walk around topless.
It's wired in our brains that this is wrong.
The same part of my brain that tells me not to be sexually attracted to my female family members does not want to see these same family members topless.
What about young girls 12-18?
Who wants to open that can of worms to sexual predators.

The female breast is a sexual object pure and simple.
Unless we can all have mass hypnosis to retrain us otherwise.

The only exception to this is breastfeeding in public.
This is a natural act as nature intended.

However most of us men will still feel a bit sheepish around a stranger or friend doing this.

Totally agree with both of you guys. Breasts are sexualized. Hyper-sexualized. Breast augmentation is one of the top 5 cosmetic surgical procedures in the U.S.
It's weird and unfair, and makes zero sense to me, but that's the way it is! "Freeing the nipple" will just make a lot of straight men happy. Period. It won't de-sexualize breasts. Maybe if women stop wearing push-up bras or lacy lingerie up top, or cleavage accentuating tops, and STOP getting breast lifts and implants, we'll finally see a change in the way breasts are perceived. I don't see that happening any time soon.

I am all into women empowerment and having equal opportunities. But lets look at the facts. The female breast is not the same as the male breast - if it was, this would never have even been an issue. Whether these "feminists" like to admit it or not, they do have boobs and the fact is, most women would be highly offended at seeing them walking around with them out. (I know my wife would)! Ultimately, it doesn't matter if it were legal or not - most women wouldn't take part. It is legal in New York, but let's face it, it certainly isn't the norm, and if anyone is spotted doing it it becomes headlines.
The fact is, most of the women behind this "free the nipple " campaign are celebs looking to..........further their careers, by whatever means possible.
Lets face it, if you told a hundred NORMAL women that they could walk down the street topless, how many would do it? Two, three? what seems to be forgotten is that most women THEMSELVES do not want people satring (which they would) at their boobs. Boobs exist, whether "feminists" want them there or not. And, gthough I am a man, I'm sure true feminism is anything but walking around with your boobs out.

Ps,
Silvershoes, I agree with what you say to some degree, but there is nothing wrong with the breast being sexual - it's one the primary forms of attraction that we can't fight even if we try. Men find women's breasts attractive, because to men they are - there is nothing wrong with that. The female form to most men is a beautiful thing.

Cmon.... I truly thought I'd be on the opposite end of this. I usually am! Lol.

A for effort for trying to find a controversial topic to discuss? Haha!

Not so. It's not entirely biological. Attraction to breasts is often thought of as socio-cultural.

Before westernization of Japan, breasts were treated as mere child-rearing organs and fascination with breasts was considered childish. Typical female dress, like the kimono, was designed to compliment the female figure by flattening the chest.

Also, many tribespeople, like the Yanomami, do not really sexualize breasts other than to identify a girl entering womanhood. And this isn't really the best identifier since some girls (15%+) begin developing breast tissue at the age of 7.

Evolutionarily, we're one of very few animals with permanent breasts, which is arguably maladaptive for men, but adaptive for women. Breasts were once temporary features, as in they protruded while a woman was pregnant or nursing (or when she was not "sexually available"). Breast-feeding acts as a natural contraceptive. Somehow having permanent breasts became 'the norm,' and it became impossible for men to differentiate who might be pregnant/nursing and who might not.
Also, while some argue that large breasts indicate heightened fertility or health, that's not really the case. Breasts are expensive, in that they have a high concentration of fat cells, and the body stores toxic chemicals in fat cells... chemicals that can be passed on to offspring.

So from a biological and evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that breasts are seen as a distinguisher between men and women, but it doesn't really make sense why we've evolved permanent breasts, why many women have large breasts, and why many men find breasts in general attractive.

I'm not a big fan of the movement, but I hear people talking about it in a positive light all the time. Fun fact: I'm surrounded by hippies.

My discomfort in it is really the idea that freeing the female nipple would somehow empower women more. I'm really sick of pop-feminism masquerading as true feminism when all it's really doing is sexualizing people who might not want to be sexualized. The female body needs to be free of rape culture, yes, but females need to be free of having every feminist article exclusively make demands on how clothed or UNCLOTHED their bodies deserve to be. Especially when their bodies are being policed by other females who claim to speak for he whole population. Yeah, we've got boobs. And a lot of people (male and female and otherwise) find them sexy. We get it. Can we move along now and stop spending time reading #freethenipple articles that are pushing aside bigger issues? What about racism? What about the third world? What happened to #blacklivesmatter? #Freethenipple is so much more about allowing extremely stereotypically attractive women walk around naked because they're proud of their extremely stereotypically attractive bodies than it is about women's rights. It's maddening. Also I was reading an article on EveryDayFeminism the other day and it was about how to talk to your sexually active elementary aged children as if their was really nothing to worry about and having sex in 6th grade is no big deal. In short, this brand of pop-feminism sucks.

Also, Jane have you read Breasts: A Natural and Unnatural History? It's real interesting. Best part is reading about how some "scientists" believe breasts evolved only to attract men, as if their ability to feed offspring was just a happy accident.

The fact is, breasts are attractive to men, so that is natural. A natural, primal attraction can never be regarded as unnatural. After all, evolution is about the change of what has gone before and breasts have become, not only glands to feed with, but a secondary sexual feature.

Sassafrass - I agree completely - it is a non issue continuously brought up by women who are anything but feminists and just want to show the world their boobs. It is sickening that it is regarded as an issue at all and people can't stop talking about it. If I were a woman, I'd be really p****d..........surely, that's not what feminism is about.

^ I'm really sick of pop-feminism masquerading as true feminism

Best comment in the thread, Narph.

We have here the situation in which banal issues are treated to more attention than substantive issues.

Agreed, Larry. It's a sickly subject, despised by most women, and made "popular" by the worst sort of women. It is the kind of subject that embodies all that is wrong with society right now. It saddens me, especially when I have a daughter who's seven and has to grow up with it.
Far from feminism, these people and topics like this, simply objectify women further.

I have a theory that few people have vivid memories of breast feeding , but I recall a time in my youth that the sight of a nipple inspired a strong lustful reaction that included feeling weak in the knees and dizzy headed. I also have a theory that each individual varies in the degree of flesh and shape it takes to raise the heart rate.
Mystery and fantasy is sometimes stronger than physical reality.

Not meaning to give more attention to this than the other issues out there.. just trying to spark conversation. I didn't even realize this was a thing until yesterday.

No, Britt, any criticism (from me at least) was not aimed at you. You're right in bringing the topic up to talk about so people like us can all cut it down and say how pathetic it is! I just meant the people who keep advocating it are the twits who have something to gain (fame) It's actually refreshing to read a thread that comes from the real world and isn't riddled with madness and to see that the normal person out there finds it absurd. It is a non issue in terms of the greater world, but even in itself - it will not (and should not) ever be considered seriously. The only ones that do are the current crop of misguided "celebs"

Anyway......boobs are great, and should be respected by all - not just left hanging out on the streets! lol

I'm happily surprised there aren't a lot of people "pro" this that I know. It's not something I can understand, at all.

"Anyway.....boobs are great" haha!

I agree, Britt. My criticism as to attention was not aimed at you, but at the pop-feminists themselves.

To clarify:
I love the anatomy, but I especially love the mystery

Not a week goes by that I don't compliment my wife on her own appearance, especially in that regard. I am very happy she has never felt it necessary to augment her natural beauty.

Weird - why have those paintings in the show if you have to blur them out in the first place?

Yeah, I've seen the show. Censoring paintings is bizarre, but I think the line that's drawn between nudity and gore is a question of what is socially considered private versus public. We're a culture that generally still values the naked body as something private and personal. Maybe not even "generally" though based on shows these days. So many breasts, butts, and sex, sex, sex. It's desensitizing and makes the real thing feel less special.. I have to look up freakin Parental Guide before starting a new show haha. I'm a prude though and feel like a pervert watching people have sex or seeing bodies objectified. If two people started getting naked in front of me, I wouldn't stand there and gape, I'd gtfo. It's hard for me to think of actors differently. They're still people. A nude body being portrayed artfully, that's something else and I have no qualms with it.

As for blood, guts, and gore... The intent is to shock and horrify, not get people feeling excited and like they want to participate. If that's the case, then Houston, we have a problem.

Desensitized?

My daughter, Lauren, works in reality TV. She got a one-day job for a documentary in Dallas to photograph the evidence at the DA's office that was used in the Charles Albright trial.

After she was finished capturing the gruesome exhibits, including explicit photos of his victims, she was not sure whether she should be appalled that she was desensitized to the material by the media or appreciative that she can always find work as a crime scene photographer.

Albright, known as the eyeball killer, ranks among the worst of real-life serial killers. You can google him, but after watching the youtube docs on him I decided NOT to post them here. Too disturbing.

I would say the nipple is the thing we should be much less concerned about with open facebook pages

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=726318644076537&set=vb.182556315119442&type=2&theater

Social media is the bane of modern society - I genuinely believe it to have become a worrying aspect of our society. Children on facebook seeing things that children should never be exposed to.

"Breast on women are sexual and a woman shouldn't show them, they trigger rape, asking for it, bla bla bla"

- western society

(ignores the millions of native tribes around the world where breast are completely normal, made to feed kids)

Patriarchy is the doom of all of us. If we never fight it back, its never going to get better. People always see
feminism like a "woman issues" or "what does that have to do with men...."

Equality between genders will elevate the quality of life for society as a whole...

to say that women can't show their bodies because it arouses men, implies that men are animals unable to control themselves.. you like that?? being considered an animal unable to control your emotions?

Patriarchy hurts men too, and it hurts them very much.
people expect softness from women and toughness from men.

You can't wear your breast out in the public,
but you can buy a playboy magazine anywhere. So u can sell breast in America, but not wear them...

bye, bye, bye

oh my god

And the #freethenipple movement was taken out of context.

it does not imply that women need to walk around topless,
it just means that we want men not to act like dogs when they see em. We want women to not have to feed their kids in bathroom stalls, we want to forget to wear a bra one day and not be stared at like we are aliens.

We are tired of people policing our bodies,
stop talking down feminism if you don't even have a clue of what it stands for and what it means.

Men and boys get rape constantly too..
why is no one talking about it? BECAUSE PATRIARCHY THAT'S WHY.

Men's nudes get leaked too, why is no one shaming them?

BECAUSE PATRIARCHY THAT'S WHY..

I'm sick to my stomach.

There's a lot of validity to what you're saying, Yaki, and the way you view the nipple freeing movement is refreshing, but it's being taken out of context not by us, but by attention-seeking celebrities trying to be edgy and sexy, not trying to promote equality. That's my impression.

From editing hundreds of evaluations on sexually violent predators, yes, boys get raped too, but usually by other boys or men, and girls/women are still disproportionally molested, harassed, and raped.

I'm sorry, but women too view there breasts as sexual (push up bras, low cut dresses, etc) so lets not pretend that men woke up one day and suddenly decided they were attracted to breasts out of the blue. The same way men can't walk around with their penises out, women can't walk around with their boobs out - is that "policing"? The fact is, they are viewed privately by most women, and the free the nipple campaign really is not feminism. You have a very corrupt view of it if you think it is. It has nothing to do with women empowerment and everything to do with exhibitionism. Either way, the aggression is entirely uncalled for simply because people have different opinions.

Lets remember, it's very easy to blame men, but it is the women themselves who sell their bodies and sexualise them - no one forces them to, they know exactly what they are doing. And - as above - most women wouldn't dream of walking around with their boobs out and most women do not "forget to put on their bra" - most women view their own breasts as private.

Either way, this is as larry said, an entirely banal subject that has no place in a poetry forum and has, especially on this site, run its course - maybe we should all agree to disagree and stick to writing poetry!

Ben, you should have been here about 8-10 years ago. We discussed EVERYTHING. Politics. Religion. Wars. Abortion. ANYTHING controversial, so long as it's respectful, goes on this board and generally strikes up a lot of really interesting and intelligent conversation. I don't think it's run it's course at all! :)

If we stick to just writing poetry, we'll never be on the boards. Which is why people complain we aren't active. lol.

I'm really curious what someone like Abby would think of the subject.

Ben did u just said women are the ones sexualizing themselves???..

no dear. u stick to writing poetry..

smh....

kill me dead

dead

dead

dead

Yaki, I feel you on this. My personal reaction to #freethenipple is negative, because I'm sick of feminist movements being highly sexual in all aspects (and from my experience, being a feminist surrounded by feminists in a feminist town) feminism has been shaved down to a sex vs sex/who's more privileged than whom gameshow... the #freethenipple campaign has become something that people I know talk about at the beach when they really just want to take a selfie topless cause they know they look good.

Now, to be fair, I have no problem with people looking good and taking pictures of their naked bodies and being proud. You do you and live your life. But the majority of the people I know who behave this way can and WILL turn right around and see anyone who does not fit their perfect "ideal" and complain that they aren't more covered. This is why I think this is an issue of pop-feminism.

The basis of breastfeeding and visual breast expression in general does not bother me. In fact, it pisses me off that women have to hide their biological breast capabilities behind a smokescreen of blankets and bathrooms.
People can ask me to breastfeed in a stall? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?! I WILL NOT. That's such crap. But PLEASE I'm so sick of youth society turning these issues into an advertisement for Urban Outfitters because these issues are so much more important than that.

I'm so sick of feeling like the entire conversation is based on sex and sexuality as if there aren't other issues in this world. As if everyone is thinking about sex and sex only 100% of the time. I get the #freethenipple campaign, I really do. But I don't like how it's been treated. And this is my problem. Feminism is great. I love it, god I am PART of it. But it has become a fad and corporations and people have just jumped on board and bastardized it. That's what kills me.

I want privileged white people to stop complaining that their nipples are covered at the beach and spend the time they spend taking selfies contemplating and taking action against the fact that the majority of people killed by police in the USA are people of color. I want feminist websites to write less about how to talk to sexually active 12-year-olds and more about how we can change the completely crazy rate of incarceration in this country. I want more substance in television and more trans actors given screentime without being tokenized as sex-objects on screen.

In short, #freethenipple is a small part of a massive issue that is affecting modern feminism. The movement itself doesn't need to stop (as is evidenced by anyone here who would be offended by breastfeeding or who thinks it isn't ridiculous that a hyper sexualized fan-service perspective of women (and women really ONLY) still exists rampant in TV shows while men are nearly never shown at a "comparable" level of sexual nudity) but it does need to be expressed in a way that is mindful of the world around it. People DO NOT understand what feminism is, and THEY WON'T even try to if every interaction they have with it is so sexualized it looks pornographic from an uninformed standpoint.

I have so many problems with this, but I'll stop there.

Edit: Also, Ben Pickard, please stop saying what "most women" think or what we "wouldn't dream of". It's unfair to make those assumptions and statements.

Also, the "celebrities" that have been mentioned -- can we have citations for those endorsements, please?

Yakz - you are rude, so I know longer need deal with you.
But as a final point, no one forces women to take their tops off on page three or post endless inane pictures of themselves and tweet them or be a model in a magazine, so grow up and take some responsibility for your own sex - these women are not handcuffed and made to take theur clothes off - they know exactly what they are doing.
Men certainly are not innocent, the average music video degrades women horribly, but again, the women don't have to take part.
Unfortunately, sex sells, and both sexes take part - please - grow up and stop trying to pin it all on men, it is actually pathetic. I'm done.

To be more moderate, when I say most women, I mean the women I know and have spoken to about it. But please, ladies, I am allowed my view - surely the discussion can be carried out without the aggression. After all, if the issue was that black and white, we wouldn't even be here talking about it. Watch any music video by the likes of Rihanna or beyonce and tell me women don't know how to sell their bodies - please yaks - the idea is absurd.
And Britt - the only reason I said let's leave it is because these types of threads always descend into people bein rude.
Pps. Now I'm done, lol

Bye have a nice life

u beautiful responsable human being who most certainly takes responsability for his own sex and believes women blame everything on men

(while ignoring everything i said about patriarchy hurting men too)

lmao stop gaslighting women, u did nothing more but expose exactly why we need feminism.

bye

Yakz, Why is it that you feel the need to be so rude on a comment thread about other peoples opinions?
I would have left it, but I have a daughter and when you start getting personal, it isn't funny anymore. You have no right whatsoever to level anything at me in any respect. You know nothing of me. I hope my daughter grows up in a world where she is respected, FREE but where she respects herself too. The same as I hope for my sons. The same way I try to live. I take responsibility for my actions - we all have to. I don't come to this site for animosity - if I did I could have stayed on facebook. But how dare you start getting perssonal simply because our opinions differ. I will ask nicely now to agree to disagree and end contact there otherwise I will take it further. I can put up with a lot, but not those kinds of entirely inaccurate insults. I hope that's the end of it,
Ben

You said we should all stick to poetry

I said you should stick to poetry.

they are both opinions...

except u got upset. Just because I said you should stick to poetry doesn't mean I am rude. U said all of us which obvs included me...

and I didn't call U rude!

why are you so uptight....

lmao...

but anyways my existence does not depend on how nice u find me. i am not on earth for that purpose

xoxo

"You did nothing but expose exactly why we need feminism."

Once again, please stop now. Mincing words is a pointless game to play with me. All of the commnets you have made aimed at me have, as everyone on here can see, been rude. All I am asking is we agree to disagree, But please, do not judge me for having an opinion that differs from yours. Remember, I am all for women empowerment and feminism, but the argument only ever stemmed from the fact that I do not agree that the people involved in free the nipple are particularly genuine. The ones you hear of anyway.

Ofcourse. because I try to bring a point across and u do nothing but gaslight me telling me to take responsability for my own sex....

when we need to work as a collective
to better society. u can't push women issues on women only... we need to include men too... you know why?,

because we birth them...

bye