THAT ISN'T COMEDY!

I'm a massive fan of standup comedy, usually of the darker more political variety. With extreme standup you'll often find there are literally no subjects immune from mockery or examination in some way.

So my question to you fine poets is this. Are there any subjects you would never focus on as a subject for poetry?

I personally would never write an erotic poem. I don't disregard it as poetry from others, nor do I think it's beneath me. It would be so far removed out of my comfort zone to write specifics. A generalized or widely metaphoric poem, maybe, but even then I'd probably laugh like a 12 year old boy throughout the entire thing.

I also won't touch on topics that aren't overly personal or experiential in my life. I cannot write on being discriminated against for the color of my skin, because I have never experienced this personally. I cannot write on a male perspective as I am female. I have a hard time "channeling" another persona and do it semi-well because there is something about the emotion of experience that is necessary, for me, in poetry.

GREAT subject, Kevin.

Comedy is the better half of drama and from ancient philosophy tragedy may be perceived as the other half . I have been known to laugh at tragedy ,but feelings, I am told by experts, are neither moral nor immoral . I don't believe many of us have not let an opposing subjective feeling get under our skin . Humans often group just like animals tribes, clans, and so forth So my question to you fine poets is this. "Are there any subjects you would never focus on as a subject for poetry?" No moderator has ever attempted to censor me on my page and I can't think of a genre or topic I have deliberately avoided

Great question, Kevin. There's nothing I would specifically avoid but there is much that I would not care about.

Almost anything I write about has some current need to be said for some purpose or it would not even be on my radar. Exceptions usually are entries for prompts.

Britt, that's an interesting thing you said about not writing from a male's point of view as you are female. I, too, could never presume to write from a female's point of view - how could I know?
It's funny because I've just read a book called "Before I go to sleep" which is written from a woman's point of view and found out after it was written by a man. I don't like to be closed-minded about any form of writing, but it was such a personal book, relating to so many things that were uniquely female, as it were, that I couldn't help feeling it was an invasive write somehow! (Great book though!).

I believe there are some people who can write from other perspectives and relate or capture some of the emotions... but I personally really struggle. I could write a poem about sports (football for example) because I am passionate about it (I know, I know)..or hunting perhaps, but that's about as "male" related I can get.

Of course I know I'm stereotyping and generalizing, here. :P

There's nothing I would specifically avoid but there is much that I would not care about.

^^

I agree with this. Nothing is particularly off-limits or 'taboo' as such to write about, it's just most things don't interest me. Or I don't have the motivation to write about most things.

I feel to write from a particular point of view, you have to get into that mind set and that character and have a some empathy with that character.

With this in mind I wouldn't go near anything to do with child abuse or peadophiles.

Since having children myself this feeling has intensified.

Great subject, I agree!

I would not want to write a poem that names and shames a person or a group.

I wonder if any of you would ever consider writing a poem about child abuse from the point of view of the abuser? I remember Nirvana's song "Polly" which is written from the POV of a rapist and murderer.

Could you?

No.

Collective Decisions verus destiny /fate

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=142936
"On Pain
Kahlil Gibran
Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain.
And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life, your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy;
And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields.
And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief.

Much of your pain is self-chosen.
It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self.
Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquility:
For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen,
And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips, has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears."

Hurt people hurt people , but nature is no excuse for the unnatural

I have a vague memory of an English teacher asking us not to tell our parents about a suggested assignment to prepare us for a poem written by a famous poet (possibly Edgar Allan Poe) written about a murder from the perspective of the murderer. Now days the only difference between a killer and a murderer is justification . of course there can be no justification of robbing a child of innocence . There always seems to be a gray area of morality that require a con/science to discern human nature from higher expectations . I would find the area of darkness I avoid to be less than inspiring. The darker the subject the more silent lambs become.

Write a poem from the POV of a child abuser?

I could, but I'd have to descend into the hell and pain of the abuser's mind.

I think I've only written one slightly funny poem, and it was by accident. I try to steer clear of comic poetry for fear of failing miserably. Not my forte.

"I wonder if any of you would ever consider writing a poem about child abuse from the point of view of the abuser? I remember Nirvana's song "Polly" which is written from the POV of a rapist and murderer."

Yeah, definitely. I have no qualms with imagining the viewpoint of abusers. It's necessary to understand their POV to catch them and/or treat them in a controlled environment.
A poem from that POV would also probably raise awareness about mental illness and abuse.

I edit for a criminal psychologist who specializes in sexually violent predators. Her reports cover criminal, psychological, mental, and familial history of pedophiles, as well as in depth interviews with their past and present states of mind.
To be fair, I don't think most people could cope with the sh*t I read. It's rough. If I've learned anything, shows like Criminal Minds or Law & Order are NOT exaggerations of the real world. I was terribly mistaken.

With extreme standup you'll often find there are literally no subjects immune from mockery or examination in some way.

^^^^

No subjects immune? Can you give me an example of a stand-up doing a joke about child abuse? I sincerely hope not...

I'm sorry, but I feel there is absolutely no place whatsoever in any form of entertainment or art for trying to understand or "get inside the head of" a child abuser or rapist. Surely, even in this time, some subjects should still be stayed clear of. I have to be honest, I would never be able to write from the point of view of such an abuser and would question any piece that did.

What I have often heard is that an abuser, of whatever kind, feels his/ her victims 'deserved it'. So a poem written from that point of view, would probably have a message along that lines in it...but who would want to read that? Having said that, I know child porn is downloaded all over the world anonymously, so there is a 'market' for at least watching this.

Ben, isn't that like choosing to be ignorant? Or at least not wanting to draw attention to something that does happen frequently and everywhere?
I know a lot of people feel uncomfortable when confronted with the sick and twisted that hides in the shadows, but someone has to be brave and acknowledge what's going on. Drawing attention to child abuse, which is prevalent, is vital to understanding it.

Ingrid, some abusers don't think their victims "deserve it." Some don't think one way or the other because they have severe Antisocial Personality Disorders that prevent them from being able to empathize or sympathize with the pain of others. Some have distorted perceptions and misunderstand the situation to the absurd extent that they think their victims enjoy being mistreated. Some are deep into drugs and are barely conscious of their behaviors, acting impulsively and animalistic. Some know they have a problem and feel incredible remorse, but don't have the willpower to seek help. Some have childlike brains and the hormones of an adult. Some come from different cultures and don't realize sex with kids is wrong. Sometimes kids don't realize what is happening to them is wrong and they think it's love. They then begin molesting their younger siblings or neighbors, in a skewed attempt to show love, and eventually they're adults, and guess what? Still molesting. Still not aware it's wrong.

There are infinite reasons why abusers exist. Some have been abused, some have had serious head injuries, some have histories of family illness, some came from loving families.

I read a report the other day about a man who traveled between Europe and N. America and abducted over 1,000 prepubescent boys, whom he forced into child pornography. He sold his films for a lot of money and had an enormous client base. He even traded a few "special boys" as sex slaves. When he got tired of one or the boy became too old, he gave the boy as a gift to another pedophile.
This is real. This is a man in prison within several hours of me. He feels zero remorse. He confesses that if released, he will try to resume sexually abusing young boys.
This case is one in about 100 that I have read in the last year. Every case is different. Every one is real. Almost none of them have made the papers. It's just too common.

Could I write from the perspective of a child abuser? Yes, probably. I've read enough reports from their perspectives to understand how they think. I can understand how they think because I don't have an Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Yes, all of the above may be true - but it doesn't actually help the victims, nor make the subject more approachable or understandable. Some people cannot be helped, nor deserve to be, despite inherent issues they may or may not have. Children should be our only and ultimate responsibility - not the adults that hurt them. Do not think for a minute that a man who molests a child will ever be "well". So no, I never "choose to be ignorant" but choose to stand up and say what is wrong, what should be unapproachable and what, in my opinion, is beyond hope or repair.

Maybe, more moderately put, it should be addressed and studied but (sticking to the point) not in the arts. That isn't where these problems are to be solved - just my opinion.

I think we all acknowledge the problem, Silvershoes, or we wouldn't be discussing it. What I cannot acknowledge is the issue taking any form of representation in entertainment which is, ultimately, supposed to entertain. Maybe the experts should be left to deal with such evils, and not mere poets, lol

I understand where you are coming from , and I am not sure the song Polly was about shades of gray. I have seen evidence that many who claimed to have been abused by a parent still have a very forgiving nature that seems supernatural to me . Without giving out names I saw a post about "my father is in heaven", by someone who accused her so called father of unthinkable acts

Yes, Jane, I know there are many kinds of molesters, but the end result is the same, alas!

What baffles me is that there is such a large group of abusers and that they are also to be found in the upper regions of our society. I have heard about judges, specialised in children, who turn out to be child molesters. They had access due to their profession, the excuse being they would 'monitor the child's behaviour closely(!). And what to think of people like Michael Jackson, Jimmy Saville, etc. They were doing it under the eyes of the whole world and those that knew, probably looked away or were paid to keep their mouths shut.
Child abuse is a huge, world wide problem, or should I say, disease....

I think, ultimately, the term "choosing to be ignorant" cannot really be applied popularly to someone simply because they wouldn't write from the perspective of a child abuser or rapist. I think also, I would be in the vast majority in that case, not because I am ignoring the issue, but simply because to pretend to be able to understand what is probably the most vile evil would be absurd, so the write itself would be meaningless.
I personally won't say anymore as these issues have a way of getting heated (for me, if I'm honest) especially as I'm a father who struggles with the concept.
Great thread and I respect and can understand each view offered.
All the best everyone.

Ben, if you think the main purpose of the arts is for approved 'entertainment', I'd say you're making a poor fool out of it, and humans in general. Art thrives in conflict, rises to the challenge, imagines the best and worst of existence, explores the darkest corners, and brings to light grains of truth about our world, however gritty and unpalatable they may be. It acknowledges our imperfections every time. It finds ways to raise awareness to issues that would otherwise fester.

Nothing should be taboo in poetry, nothing. What a crying shame to feel limited in expressing pieces of the extraordinary secret universe inside you.

It finds ways to raise awareness to issues that would otherwise fester.

^^
I agree, Abby. But how to write about subjects that are so horrifying you don't want anyone to think you approve of them?

That's my point, Ingrid - and Abby, why get rude simply because I disagree with you? That's what I dislike about these threads; someone always takes it down a notch by getting personal. Try to be a little more moderate in your posts, please. Put it this way:
You write a poem from the point of view of a man who preys on the young, sexually. One, I bet you couldn't, and two, see how many people like it. I wouldn't be so offended if it wasn't for the fact that I very much doubt I am in the minority. I may be many things, but not a fool.
Again, there are obviously people who have differing views here - hence the thread - but can't we discuss rather than start name calling?
This is what I meant above about the thread becoming heated - I actually didn't think it would be too many post before somebody did the obvious. What a shame.

Look, I'll try again to leave the thread on a moderate tone without being roped back in, lol.
My view is clear: Poetry or any form of art isn't needed to raise the awareness of these vile subjects - these people, unfortunately, are making it clear enough to all of us. No one needs to pretend to get inside such vile subjects - and rape and child abuse are that - unnecessarily. I'm actually a pretty liberal guy, but not for this. There is no understanding or any justification for these acts, and no art should pretend to understand it - in my mind, that's sick. They can't help it, we can.
BUT ........that is just my opinion and I understand the other views. Please do the same.
Again,
Take care,
Ben

I do not personally believe there is any topic that is untouchable in writing or comedy; but as should be expected, material created in regards to certain topics is likely to bring about a more... not so much hostile, but volatile response.

I do not touch upon overly sensitive, or touchy, subjects anymore, but I used to, to a minor extent, explore more serious subjects. One poem in particular, I attempted to write from the POV of a stalker, but ultimately, what I found out is, that it can be difficult to write something, or tell a joke, without glorifying or showing acceptance of certain behaviors. I don't necessarily regret writing the poem, but I have erred away from writing anything in that vein since.

I do not believe that any subject is overtly wrong to write about or utilize in comedy, but there is a decision that must be made- do you want to be tasteful, or is there intent to be offensive? That's up to the writer or comedian, and really depends upon the response they are aiming for. Is it inherently wrong to make light of some subjects? I don't think it is, but I do think there bares some mindful regard of the audience, or those affected by any such issue which falls under the topic of choice.

Now, I do believe there falls some onus of expectation upon readers and audience to have an understanding of satire, hyperbole, etc.- for example, Johnathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" proposes the devouring of newborns in order to solve hunger in Ireland. Now, he is not actually proposing such action, but utilizing hyperbole to point out how dire the hunger issue was in the country, and some of the absurdist ideas being tossed around as solutions.

Seeing as you asked so nicely Hellon, here is Mr Doug Stanhope doing a skit about child abuse (not sexual child abuse I grant you, but child abuse covers a broad range of things. He does have other jokes about priest molestation).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8APlx9btTn8

I'd like to respond to Ben Pickard.

"I'm sorry, but I feel there is absolutely no place whatsoever in any form of entertainment or art for trying to understand or "get inside the head of" a child abuser or rapist."

Did you know Shakespeare wrote about rape? He did and I know you must respect him as a writer and poet. Another example. In the book "Red Dragon" by Thomas Harris, a highly celebrated author, the character Wil Graham has the ability, through a very rare form of 100% undiluted empathy, to open up to and experience the thought processes of murderers, rapists and sociopaths. It isn't exactly good for his emotional state, but he does it to help people understand these individuals.

"There is no understanding or any justification for these acts, and no art should pretend to understand it - in my mind, that's sick. They can't help it, we can."

You are right about there being no moral justification for child abuse. You are very wrong about there being no understanding for the crime. A quick google search will show you how mistaken you are and I'm not being rude when I say that. You simply don't know what you are talking about. I get you are a parent and this one issue makes you see red. It does for me too but I know for that very reason, we need to push past those feelings and try to get a better understanding of the root causes, if only to try and alter society to lessen the instances.

The arts are the only place we are free to express whatever we want...though at least in the UK our charming government is doing their level best to change that. One could even argue it is the lack of healthy expression of fantasies, theories, dark ideas is contributing to our very closed minded view of sex and sexuality.

Hellon, think of how many dead baby jokes there are -- the fact that there's an entire joke category of "dead baby jokes" alongside "dumb blonde jokes" shows how incredibly interested humans are in turning child abuse or murder into comedy.
I say this without justifying it as good or bad, it's just an observation.

Kevin, perhaps you are right to a degree. I can take honesty without rudeness and can accept my own ignorance in certain topics - as you say, fuelled by my contempt for them perhaps. But personally, I cannot see any pleasure in reading or writing from a molester's point of view. And whilst there seem to be a few advocates of the idea, I still wonder if its easier to say than do. Sit down. Write a poem. As if you are an abuser of children. Make it hit home with all the language and imagery that would have to entail? Now, say you did write such a poem - who on earth would want to read it?

As for the dead baby jokes - there will always be the idiots who find such things "funny". The world is forgetting the meaning of the word "wrong". Like I say, I'm a pretty liberal guy - I'll sit down and watch movies with violence/gore/nudity etc and enjoy. But there is a limit that the recent generations have crossed. Laughing at jokes about dead babies is not art and is not funny. Just because I throw a lump of mud at a wall doesn't mean it's a painting.

You are assuming Ben that if someone did try and write a poem from the POV of an abuser, it would be a piece of writing filled with darkness and hatred. What if the abuser in question looked at their victims as divine angels they were destined to worship and adore and love? I am uncomfortable even writing this...but I can't help but try and see the flipside.

Also, humour is not for you, or anyone to define. It would be a very sad world indeed if any one of us got to set in stone the boundaries of anything. I personally, despite working in social care with severely impaired people, have a very dark sense of humour. I've even wondered if my dark slant on life has made it easier for me to work in such a challenging field.

I'm sorry, Kevin, but that to me is a line. I will speak honestly and openly there. No, humour is not for me to decide, but laughing at jokes made about dead babies is, I'm afraid, twisted humour. There is no way round that, and I doubt many would disagree. I can accept a lot of what you've written above, but if you think vile jokes aimed at babies who have died should be acceptable amusement to anyone, then I think we are going to come to a complete dead end.
But again, as far as the abuse comments are concerned, I respect your views, many of which raise interesting points that I shall do my best to consider!
All the best,
Ben

"It does for me too but I know for that very reason, we need to push past those feelings and try to get a better understanding of the root causes, if only to try and alter society to lessen the instances."

I really love this -- so often society wants to mask a symptom and make that better, but we have to dig deeper, get our hands dirty, and figure out WHY things are happening. I personally believe it's all a heart issue, which can truly branch out into about a million other things.

Kevin, I also like your point about abusers seeing their victims as divine and someone to worship. With an apparent mental illness or disconnect somewhere to make an abuser different, this can be very real..and I never thought of it this way. Of course I am not condoning it, but just bringing it to a different light in my brain. Mental illness can do some intense and interesting things to a person, and to them, that is their reality.

Others are just coldhearted and completely atrocious. When I originally read the question I thought there is absolutely NO way I could write from an abusers viewpoint. I still don't believe I could, but do understand how people could get into their shoes a bit in the case you referenced.

--

Dead baby jokes are so unfunny to me. I don't understand how others think some humor is, well, humor, but that's why I just don't listen to it. Humor is subjective and I've got a stick up my butt about a lot of 'humor' topics, I know lol.

I also think that poetry is definitely not just to express emotions. Poets have created movements and societal changes based on their words... while they were yes, expressed by the writers emotion, it also brings awareness to very real life situations. You don't have to glorify something bad in poetry, but you can use something bad to start a change, to bring awareness, to open someones mind.

"I also think that poetry is definitely not just to express emotions. Poets have created movements and societal changes based on their words."

Totally agree, Britt. I think the line, if there is one, depends on whether the author presents a voyeuristic work that gratifies the abuser-types or instead produces an analytically based work that seeks to expose the causes and sources of abuse, or to at least shock the reader into action.

Abuse does arise for different reasons and by different personalities. In my practice I run into many cases of abuse, both spousal and child, that runs the gamut. One of the first things of which I inform my clients is that if I learn of child or elder abuse that is not already being dealt with, the attorney-client confidentiality is by law over-ridden by my duty to report it.

From my own experience and study the largest category is comprised of those perpetrated by adults who were victims in their youth (most often who never received counseling). After that comes abuse triggered by substance abuse; quite often it's a combination of the two.

A distant third is by true sociopaths. These are individuals with a persistent life-long malady in which the person is incapable of empathy toward other people, has no feelings of remorse and sees others as mere automatons to be used for their own personal gain or pleasure. Often they are charming and intelligent and are good at faking emotions. In prison, sociopaths are generally not allowed to take part in group sessions due to their ability to manipulate the group. They also are not given the chance to improve their skills by group counseling - they won't redeem themselves from it, just get better at being monsters.