One race, divided people

Thought I'd put this out there. It's certainly a topic of debate in the Australian media at the moment but is often sidestepped by many in Australia and abroad due to political correctness, and the unwillingness to have an opinion for fear of being called racist

And that is the refugees Australia is accepting due to the crisis in the Middle East, particularly in Syria and the percentage of Muslims that are accepted under our immigration policy and how they assimilate into the Australian way of life
A little background first. Australia is a very multicultural society, 24.6% of Australia's population was born overseas and 43.1 per cent of people have at least one overseas-born parent. 2.4% are Muslim. Prior to the 1970's when 10,000 Turkish immigrants were accepted then another 20,000 Lebanese after the Lebanese civil war, most Muslims have arrived in the last 10 - 15 years to now number approx. 520,000

The other day at one local primary school approx. 30 Muslim children were allowed to leave assembly so they didn't have to sing the Australian national anthem as it was against their religion to sing on that day. This caused a bit of an uproar which may seem trivial to some, I mean to say it's only a song, but to others it's the foundation Australia was born on, part of the Australian way. When you become an Australian citizen you have to swear allegiance to the Australian flag etc and be willing to go to war for her if required.

Many see this as a widening division within this country where the Muslim community comes up against a Christian society which is what basically Australia is, and which all previous ethnic groups have successfully assimilated into, be they Italian Greek Chinese Vietnamese Indian... it's a culture that many Muslims shy away from..

Like any group there are always radicals be they Christian, Muslim or whatever. Nobody is saying all Muslims are bad maybe the percentage is less than 1 %, it's something you can't put a number on, and like many on here I count some Muslims as my friends

But here is the thing, one of the main concerns that is becoming more prevalent is the worry that the crisis in the Middle East will be brought to our shores

Australia's terror alert is at its highest level, we have been told it's not if we will have a terror attack its now when. We hear a of a small percentage of Muslim priests are preaching the word of hatred against our society and that killing in the name of Islam is justified, maybe some Christian priests preach the same hatred? After a Muslim terrorist held a number of hostages in a coffee shop in central Syd and two were killed, somebody carried out a survey amongst Muslims and found 1 in 20 supported the actions of the terrorist. Now that is pretty scary.

So how do we sort out these issues? We are taking another 12,000 refugees from Syria. Many are calling on the government to accept only Christians, who incidentally seem to be the most persecuted ethic group from that region, and would by all accounts assimilate easier. Yet from early statistics released it looks to be 50/50 Muslim, Christian as the Government doesn't want to be perceived as racist

Is all this needless worry? a storm in a tea cup. Or should we take care? and how do we tackle this immigration?

I keep in touch with all of the Muslims that most likely find these members of messages unfavorable to their statements or questions dramatic . By the way Abed has a book out available . I just am overwhelmed with the politics that, look to some, have us on a course to world war three

I am still excited about an
Animated Movie of "The Prophet " When I read that poetry over thirty years ago I thought it was rare

https://youtu.be/lwQbMxDcRGE

I don't think any state should be able to force citizens into patriotism. I live in the U.S. and I was raised to believe in democracy, so it's my belief the people choose (and should choose) the state, and the state/government should be at the whim of the people. Like PnQ. How absurd would it be for us to force all of you to participate in some symbol of patriotism of the site? Equally absurd I should think for anyone -- including Muslims -- to have to sing a national anthem, especially on a day that their religion deems there should be no song.
I, therefore, support the primary school decision.

You said it yourself, Nicko. There are radicals belonging to any group, especially in such enormous groups, and especially in groups that revolve around a belief system or religious doctrine. Radicals gain the most media attention, but it's our job as intelligent beings to understand the different between media hype and reality. It's not hard to be educated with the internet at our disposal. Unfortunately, too many people don't know how to intelligently use an intelligent design such as the internet.

When you say someone carried out a survey that found 1 in 20 Muslims support terrorism, I'd like to know more. Seems like conservative propanda to me, not reality. How big was the sample? Who conducted the study? Who posted the results? How was everything documented? What question or questions were asked exactly?

Way to go, Oz, for taking in Syrian refugees. People should help people in need. I don't care what body of land is where and who thinks they own it or what language they speak. People should help people in need.
I do think it would be wrong for the government to accept only Christians. There are a lot of good people belonging to the Muslim faith, and there are just as likely a lot of bad people belonging to the Christian faith. It's a gamble either way, but it's a gamble worth taking I hope. Save human lives!

Firstly I hope nobody thinks I'm anti Muslim .. That's certainly not what I'm saying.. I'm very for the acceptance of refugees into Australia.. I don't care if they are Muslims or not. I worked in Syria and found it one of the most progressive Arab countries I've visited and the people were friendly and very helpful... What has happening there is tragic

One thing that does annoy me is the lack of help other Arab countries have given to halt the rise of Isis.. It's left to the west to try and fix the mess and stop the spread of Isis to other countries

Jordan took in about 1.5 million refugees, and it's a pretty small country relatively speaking, with about 6 million people prior to the refugee crisis. Lebanon took in refugees as well.

The richer states are paying money via organizations and etc to support them taking in the refugees, but have not taken in refugees themselves, which isn't surprising given the amount of human right violations by the governments of Qatar & Saudi Arabia, from my understanding (via friends who have been to Qatar and saudi arabia) is that the average citizen have a bit of 'elitist' attitude towards other muslims, and taking in a large amount of refugees would probably fuel more tension, but take that statement with a huge grain of salt, since I cannot confirm it or find any reputable source to confirm it.

Ha Nicko, good of you to clarify your stance to the rest of the site, but I already knew where your head was at. I like that you didn't express an opinion in the first post. You left the door open for all opinions.
Good topic.

Nicko...I'm not in Australia right now so have probably missed the hype the media has probably stirred up over this incident. I did google it and here is what I've found...

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/fury-as-muslim-students-allowed-to-walk-out-of-assembly-during-national-anthem/story-fni0cx12-1227583278175?sv=25b6f46627b223fb59f60260064485b&nk=ec1bf6aa90a8f4c9a19c891cc27bdd8a-1446769400

As you can see (according to this story anyway)...these students seem to have been invited to leave if they wished and did not request the right to do so for any reason, religious or otherwise.

As I said, I'm not in Australia right now so I don't really know if this story is the correct on or not but...it doesn't surprise me that the media always seems to bide by the old saying..."Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story".

"Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story"

Caught that sentiment like a bear getting a salmon. Whether or not it is true in this case, it a perfect description of how the media deliberately stirs thing up in order to sell papers.

Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story

What do you mean Larry? sorry should have read Hellons post more in depth

This story only came to light because many of the parents objected to how the school had handled it. and many considered it un Australian. And yes some in the media ran with it because they think it raises serious concerns about the direction this country is taking. Many have questioned what comes first, would you fight for your country or your religion ? Its a tough question and yes maybe a storm in a tea cup but it does beg the question where do peoples loyalties lay in a world gone mad ??

Jane the 1 in 20 survey thing was reported in the media some time ago, i would have to try and dig it up, I'm pretty sure it was higher than 1 in 20 but erred on the side of caution

Larry was quoting a quote that I had on my post above.

I've had time to do a little more research on this topic and have come up with this...

Muharram is a length of time (10 days) I think which is the start of their new year but, depending on whether they are sunni or shi'te it means different things to them which I found a bit confusing. This is part of a description which seems to be observed by both...

"This year, the new year falls on Oct. 13. Muharram is one of the four holy months of Islam and unlawful acts, such as fighting and bloodshed, are forbidden. In fact, the term "Muharram" translates to "forbidden."

I found something that will cancel that out in my opinion and wondered what others thought..

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/asia/afghanistan-taliban-woman-stoning/

This happened during Muharram and while I don't condone it at any time I certainly think I would call it double standards regardless.

As for the students leaving the assembly, as I said the were invited to leave as far as I can see...that was the mistake IMO

Yes they were invited to leave, i used the term allowed to leave and yes it was a mistake the school made, it identified them as being different and in the eyes of some unpatriotic. They could have just stood and not sang, but whats done is done

but i don't want to focus on this one issue, I used it merely to emphasis that there is becoming a larger gap in our society which appears to be getting wider and wider....

And I think it will become even wider if we, as a society, keep our thoughts zipped because we are afraid. Afraid of appearing racist, appearing to be not quite 'politacally correct' or just afraid in general...I would opt for the latter choice if I'm being honest. Although it's probably true that the majority are law abiding citizens I do believe that their religion would still unite them (the good and the bad) in times of crisis.

Also, I'm personally irked that muslims seem to be able to waltz into most western countries with a list of demands as long as their arms and having them fulfilled. As an imigrant myself (one who went throught the legitimate channels to be in Australia), all at my own expense..I would never dream of demanding my own Scottish School...place of worship etc.

Islam is currently going through its own reformation with modernity. You can look up discussions by people like Reza Aslan, Sam Harris and his colleague Maajid nawaz on this subject.

One race, divided people

^great caption, there is but one race, the human race, unfortunately we can't comprehend that mainly because of learned behavior and taught misconceptions from generations gone by......the biggest proponents of racism and hatred are sadly the many religious groups , the baptist can't stand the catholics , who can't stand the protestants , who can't stand the muslims, who can't stand the Jews, and so on and so on........

"children are conceived
with no hatred, racism
then teaching begins"

we are our own worst enemy, on one hand , we teach and preach "love our fellow man", and in the same breath we say except those heathens who don't believe what we believe so they are devils or condemned to hell. which is so utterly ridiculous it's frightening that people could actually feel that way. There are many people who have never ever been exposed to organized religion since the beginning of time, they've created their own belief systems and seem to be doing great, their tribes live longer, work together and do whatever is necessary to survive, despite poverty, drought or whatever they may face......

"I don't think any state should be able to force citizens into patriotism. I live in the U.S. and I was raised to believe in democracy, so it's my belief the people choose (and should choose) the state, and the state/government should be at the whim of the people. "

^I love this, and it's actually going to be our downfall one day, people being forced into religion or patriotism , choosing sides, we all know the saying, a world divided can not stand, being religiously overzealous or overly patriotic makes you gullible and and nothing less than sheep heading to the slaughter.....The Gung ho attitude after 911 was a great example of this and has even carried us to where we are now.....my fear is this is going to become another religious war like the crusades, it's actually been brewing for the past half century and is close to coming to a head.......you have to be utterly clueless not to be able to see it coming, false reports, stories and manipulations by those controlling the news media and yes governments as well.....the best way to control a people is to keep them divided........

as for not standing or singing a song, frivolous and the easy fix is not to allow someone to change the traditions of others, but to allow everyone their dignity and their right to choose, they could have remained and not sung.....drama avoided....when I go to a funeral and a priest or preacher is praying, I don't walk out because I don't believe in the doctrine, it's a sign of respect, maybe that's what we need to get back to, respecting choices of religion and cultures......Great topic, I could go on and on, I was born and raised in a very strong racial community, lived there, as well as in what many would call the hood, and to be honest, there was little difference other than the more diversity, the more educational life became, so yeah, believe in one religion, "love your fellow man, and then you'll discover there is but one race, the human race.

As for not standing or singing a song, frivolous and the easy fix is not to allow someone to change the traditions of others, but to allow everyone their dignity and their right to choose, they could have remained and not sung.....drama avoided....

^^^
To make choices like this, the ones in power (of whatever kind) need to have empathy and love as their guide. Hopefully the people in this world will grow up before it is too late.

^exactly, and that's where it has to begin with each and everyone of us, there's a document the DOHR, I think it was drafted in the 40's, it is supposed to be like a national constitution of how to treat one another, i wish we could as a society grasp such a thing and implement it in our daily way of living.

We would have to let go of the needs of our ego to let that happen, Bob. If only people could see the bigger truth that lies beyond this mortal existence.

I totaly agree with you. I think deep down we all would like to just do that , respect the choices made by others and in return receive respect to choose .

If we will pause to think, all these ideologies, on which patriotisim , religion are based seem to be pointless and contradicting themselves. There is only one truth respect lives- your own and others. Treat one and all with dignity.

Yes, that is the core message, Jay <3

As a once refugee/ immigrant/ citizen of New Zealand I think that a person who lives in a country should respect the country they are in and treat it as their own (especially if that country accepted them in a hard time). They should be loyal to that country and love it. I still love New Zealand, love it and regard it as my country, even though I do not have a Kiwi citizenship and even though I have been living in Bahrain for about 14 years now (of course I am loyal and patriotic towards Bahrain too). Although, I am a Shiite Muslim, and I have loyalty to my religion too and I would follow my religious rites and rituals where ever I go.

In New Zealand we used to skip school on days of fasting (Ramadan) and some days of Muharram (like Helon said, the first 10 days are spent in mourning and so we do not have any song or dance). If we went to school on these days we were treated differently. Also, when we went to the doctors we, as Muslim women, were given a woman doctor to treat us, because that is part of our religion. Also, in parts of our lives where we needed to shake hands with men, we were respected and given the freedom to shake hands or not. As a race, we need to respect others and their religions, no matter what the situation. It is not because of the lack of patriotism that they did not participate, it is because of religion. I could be a patriot and not participate in a patriotic act because I simply cannot. A crippled man would not be forced to stand up for the national anthem, and a mute would not be required to sing it. Different people can express patriotism in different ways. The point is that giving religious people the opportunity to follow their religion only makes a nation stronger, and it makes immigrants and citizens love the country more. I know that that's what happened to me.

** Note: Shiite Muslims commemorate the death of the prophets grandson, Hussain on the lunar-hijri months of Muharram and Saffar. He was killed on the 10th of Muharram with his family and companions (even infants and children), which is why it is a very sad time for us. The first 10 days are intense, and on days 9 and 10 it's the most intense. Those are the days they where they probably said it's forbidden to listen to music.

The point is that giving religious people the opportunity to follow their religion only makes a nation stronger, and it makes immigrants and citizens love the country more. I know that that's what happened to me.

^as ruthless as Ghengis Khan was, even he knew that.

"The point is that giving religious people the opportunity to follow their religion only makes a nation stronger, and it makes immigrants and citizens love the country more. I know that that's what happened to me"

I would like to think that's true for all immigrants that arrive at foreign shores. lets hope reality is the same... or as in Martin place Sydney where a refugee went haywire...

There are always individuals that become murderous and stage terrorist activities. I do not believe you can draw a conclusion that because one is an immigrant it makes them a higher risk factor.

In the USA Donald Trump is making headlines and touching deep resentment in some demographics by focusing on an illegal immigrant who is charged with the murder of a girl in California. He totally ignores the fact that the majority of atrocities are committed by native born citizens: Aurora theater, Sandy Hook school. Even with all the publicity of these random acts of terror, most victims are known to their killers.

http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015#cite_note-156

Trump, lmao.....spouting all this immigrant stuff and all his wives were immigrants.....unfortunately too many people are taking him seriously.....

There are radicals in every religion, some use it (religion) as a crutch to do their dirty deeds, or hide behind it.......don't look at the religion, look at the individuals....

The majority of crime is committed by males age 14 - 25 (the spike!), and then slowly tapers off into middle adulthood. The majority of immigrants to the U.S. are male and in early to mid adulthood. This factors into rates of crime among immigrants, however, when controlling for confounding variables like age and sex, immigrants are less likely to commit crime than natural born citizens. It's called the immigrant paradox.
There's a wild misconception that because immigrants tend to be socioeconomically disadvantaged, they resort to crime. This is traditional thinking, and it's incorrect thinking. There's no empirical evidence that immigrants commit more crime. Actually, there's evidence of the opposite. In areas with more immigrants, there is less crime. Immigrants lower neighborhood crime rates. That's right. Close your mouth, you'll catch flies.

"There are several explanations for the immigrant paradox. One simple explanation is that immigrants have a lot to lose, including deportation, and avoiding law enforcement is an especially good idea when you are in a new and strange land. This is particularly true for illegal immigrants where contact with the criminal justice system will reveal their status. Another reason why immigrants are less crime prone may be found in selection processes. Immigrants are motivated to come to the US, work hard, and play by the rules. Thus, the antisocial liability of immigrants is low because immigration selects for persons who are motivated and ambitious to achieve."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4078741/

-----

Basically what I'm getting at is... Trump likes to talk out of his ass and lend fuel to angry, ignorant Americans who will gobble up his steaming heaps of misinformation. Be smart and educate yourself. Don't look for info, no matter the source, that substantiates preconceived notions. Look for the truth and when you speak, speak with intelligence and knowledge. Base your opinion on facts.
Immigrants are not lazy criminals. They work hard. They lower crime rates.

Plus, if you're not a Native American and you live in the U.S., how can you hate immigration? Someone in your family was an immigrant and that's why you're here. The immigrants today are searching for the same things our ancestors were looking for, and I wish them all the best.

I don't know who I'm talking to... :) /end rant

The infrastructure of this country was built by immigrants,

"lend fuel to angry, ignorant Americans"

a great line and that's exactly what it is, has been for the past few decades, but none more so than 911, the current economy, and the media hype over ISIS coming to a town near you....we love to blame the outside world, call everyone else terrorist's while we play the innocent victim, it's everyone else's fault........cept truth be told, we've allowed this to happen to us, we've forgotten the basic responsibilities of what citizenship is all about, we've forgotten, "we the people"....we've allowed these politicians and big business to get far too powerful and thus we find ourselves defenseless to many of their dumb ass decisions, that have us hated near and afar....Very few people will even embrace the idea of educating themselves to what really is going on in the world today, very few people will seek out the truth, because we are a gung ho compassionate emotional bunch that will sacrifice our lives and the lives of each other without even knowing why, it's the loyal thing to do, the patriotic thing to do....shut up, there is nothing patriotic about dying for an unknown cause......that's not loyal or patriotic, that's stupidity.....anyhow, you should rant more often

How come this has become all about America I wonder?

"and the media hype over ISIS coming to a town near you"

^^^

A very flippant comment from you Bob...don't you realise they are most definately in your country already...quietly expanding and regrouping while "ignorant Americans" your words and Jane's (not mine) laugh at the very notion.

I'm lost as to why we shouldn't talk about or from the perspective of the country we live in?
As for ISIS in our country expanding and regrouping, can you give an example?

I'm not calling all Americans angry and ignorant. Just the Americans who eat up the angry, ignorant ramblings of Trump. Hopefully it's a minority, otherwise we're in trouble.

No Jane, thankfully I cannot give you an example but..10 years ago I also could not give you an example of it happening here in Australia..now it's, take you pick because there have been so many instances recently. I guess I'm just saying...don't be complacent about it...that's all.

I was responding to the comment "angry, ignorant Americans", and well mainly because I also happen to live in America and am half natural American, but feel free to insert any country you wish, it's about America, but can be international as well......If you're looking for a war, don't invade my personal border, take it up with your own personal governments, I'm sure each country has their own, it just seems that America is the center point of all the other Government problems......I know there are people within our country who wish to do humanity harm, you can call them ISIS or you can call them some deranged nut who goes into a school and kills a whole kindergarten class, or someone who walks on a college campus and randomly opens fire, because his girlfriend is no longer his girlfriend, radical is radical no matter how you look at it...for you to be offended by words spoken on a site for writers is moot to me, when you really should be offended by what's going on in the world today and doing something about it, that time spent would be more productive don't you think.....

and it was Angry, ignorant Americans, and yes I support that statement, it's something I've been saying for a long time, and there are millions of them , sadly...just like there are millions of spineless Americans that continue to allow our present state to continue without so much as raising an eyebrow, in the end we will all pay dearly,

"And that is the refugees Australia is accepting due to the crisis in the Middle East, particularly in Syria and the percentage of Muslims that are accepted under our immigration policy and how they assimilate into the Australian way of life"

What you guys have to work with is nothing compared to the situation we have to deal wit in Hungary.. No offense but this messed up tragedy has nothing to do with ya all! Its time for you all to stop watching CNN lol

One race, divided people'

Brilliant title Bro! But as far we have religion we will have conflicts....

Peace sometimes comes when people run out of time and energy ...not necessarily in that order.

Or $ hahhaaha

Time is money, yet money often does not buy time

"yet money often does not buy time"
Tell that to a cancer patient.... or anyone whose dying

Jane and Bob....you both speak of immigrants which is quite different from the refugees Nicko was referring to. I imagine these immigrants who ,like myself, went through the proper channels to be in your country (well the majority I hope) giving your government ample opportunity to vito these applicants at their leisure and decide which were suitable and which weren't but how many refugees has your country taken in these past two years and, how many are muslim?

We have millions of Muslims in this country, imported and home bred, read about the 'Nation of Islam".......in today's world it apparently doesn't pay to be neighborly , and yet that's what civilization should be about......people have a lot of misconceptions about the muslim people, for the most part they are a peaceful people, and like any other religion they have radicals and extremists .......those are the ones that misinterpret the religion itself and have taken it to a whole other level.....I personally know many muslims that don't agree with these acts of terror and have spoken out about it vehemently.......people love to stereotype and place people in a group rather than look at the individual, not every Muslim is a terrorist and not every citizen of his/her country is a saint either.

Bob...I think you missed my point. I think most countries could claim to have imported and home bread muslims in their country. I'm talking about refugees who get thrust upon countries who have no time to process them in the proper manner. I thiink that's what this thread started out as...a question asking if we thought this way should continue or as Nicko mentioned....our government is being called upon by the people to be more selective because we are afraid. Should this be considered an option?

It's always interesting to see a thread run in different directions

This is more about how certain ethnic minorities namely the Muslims are accepted and integrate into a new society and what role they play and whether they enrich that society and not become marginalized

Religion is to blame for most of the problems the world faces and I mean all religions. For instant if you are a Hindi according to the Bible you will all burn in hell for eternity, Why? Because you just happen to be born in the wrong place. Yet if you are a Christian and spent a lifetime of rape and murder then repent on you death bed you spend eternity in Heaven.... now who can make sense of that...? I always wonder if faith loving Christians ask themselves the same questions of their almighty peace loving God. In India over 1.2 Million children die under the age of 5 every year. They have never had the opportunity to become Christian even if they wanted to, Yet as the Bible says, they are condemned to eternity in Hell. A baby 1 week old dies at birth condemned to hell for eternity. Now does the very fabric of your humanity say that is wrong. Hell yes, we all know it's wrong. Yet Christians will turn away from that, turn a blind eye... where's the sense where's the logic. Any Religion is manipulative and dangerous... Can any Christian tell me why that baby should be condemned to hell ???

And yes the majority of Muslims, of which some I am friends with on this site, are lovely peace loving people. But as has been said on this site before, it is the most dangerous religion, and if translated literally very dangerous. My fear, that hopefully will never become reality, is that though ignorance those non Muslims within countries like Australia, will become less tolerant and feel more threatened by the influx of Muslims and do something stupid that would galvanize all Muslims against their host country. And what we see happening in the middle east comes to our shores.