Thoughts for Paris

Larry,
Unfortunately, You can eradicate these groups, but the void will simply be filled with another group of fanatics. The solution is much more problematic than that.
And the first steps in my opinion are acknowledging some blame on our side. We have done some truly atrocious things in the middle east ourselves, stretching right back to the Blair and Bush debacle. To imagine that that would not have far reaching consequences is naïve. I am not saying that if not for that war this would not be happening now, but it didn't help.
We have to see and be sensible enough to realise that some of the blame must be attributed to the west, and until our own political attitudes change to some degree, there will always be another ISIS.
These people are evil, pure and simple and as I mentioned, religion has nothing to do with it....but we continue to give them a good excuse to hate us, don't we?
There are always two sides, and the west can certainly look to its own actions a little more than it has thus far.
All the best

Donna, that's what I figured, I didn't really make myself that clear, haha. That's what I get for posting on a work break :P

"We must be against the members of Al Qaeda and ISIS."

Amen. I posted a dismemberment unrelated to ISIS before they started making terrorist videos featuring beheadings and burnings , Then crucifixions were reported along with victims being stoned . These dark age executions are dark indeed , but the killing of innocent people is about as dark as homicides get, Killing non aggressive civilians is something all groups should avoid at all cost (IMHO)

Larry's right. Starting from the bottom up sounds nice enough, but there's no time to transform the root of all evil. ISIS is acting now. Top down approach is needed. Worry about the root and reasons once we've prevented more mass killings from this specific group that is terrorizing all reaches of the world.

I wasn't going to say anything.
Sometimes I find I have no opinion.
I try not to follow the flow, I don't want to be a sheep.
I was appalled but not surprised by the Paris attacks.

I hear people blaming Religion.
My own view of Religion is 2 fold,
Firstly, Some People need a belief system. They need to feel they have somebody to turn to in times of need. Religion seems to be highlighted every time something bad happens. Religion rarely receives good press. It doesn't sell newspapers. Today a program about policing Britain they run a report on a female vicar who dons a police jacket and patrols the streets with regular police. The local down and outs and drunks she speaks to show her more respect than they do the police. One asked her to pray for him, he had no home, no job and struggles with alcohol addiction. She had calmed him down after he was being a bit rowdy. This was a rare glimpse of Religion doing good. When you next walk past a Church just take a moment to see what they are doing with your community. In most cases they are the hub of the local community. People whinge that community spirit is dying in Britain. So are the number of people going to Church. Coincidence?

Now my second point on Religion,
It makes money, lots of it. Some of the standards and practices of some faiths are very out dated and out of touch. When a miracle happens it is an act of God, when tragedy happens we either have silence or 'mysterious ways'
Religion is becoming out dated at a similar rate to Science being more accomplished. We can explain how the world began without mentioning the Garden of Eden.

So you see why I am stuck in the middle somewhere.
If Religion teaches people to be good to one another then I am all for it.
If people need to believe in an afterlife then that is up to them.
I believe that we simply cease to exist, we stop breathing and thinking. Have you ever tried to imagine that, hopefully I am wrong.

These massacres are not Religious based as such they are Power based. They are money based.
War brings profits, somebody makes these guns and sells them. Other bad news can be hidden behind war. financial difficulties can disappear overnight because of war. Stocks in some fields can rise because of war.

I feel for the innocent people of Paris, all 129 of them.
They were going about their daily lives.

I also feel for these atrocities so far this year
(my facts taken off the internet so may be off)

Shikarpur 60 dead
Kabul 50 dead
Baghdad 76 dead
Garissa 147 dead
Sana a 137 dead
Kobani 146 dead
Baga 2000 dead !!!!
Beirut 43 dead
Ankara 102 dead
Mamasapano 67 dead
N D Jamena 38 dead
Fotokol 91 dead
Leego 70 dead
Sousse 38 dead

These were also trying to go about their daily lives.

I feel for any innocents who died after France bombed Syria.

I feel for those that are media brainwashed.
Somebody local commented on facebook that we should all kill a Muslim.
Muslims are already being killed.

I will finish this ramble with two scary stories I heard today.

My local corner shop is run by a Muslim couple and has been for the last 20 years. Today I found out that they have been threatened by a few people after what happened in France. This is the power of social media, it gives idiots the wrong idea. This couple are the nicest couple you could meet. They are not members of ISIS or any other faction.

Tale two

On the way to wrestling today with my 9 and 12 year old daughters in the car they both asked me when terrorists are coming to Great Yarmouth.
The kids have been talking at school and are worried that we are so close to France and with refugees coming here, that there may be a shoot out in the town centre.

I told them that terrorists are more likely to target a major city, however we have agents who's job it is to stop this before it happens. I said the best thing we could do was go about our daily lives.

trouble is, on reflection, so did the thousands mentioned above.

Ben,
I understand your point, but, as with religion, I don't give a fig for blame placing or the hand wringing about how this or that country has engendered just as much horror.

The issue, plain and simple, still is eradicating Al Qaeda and ISIS.

We must be against the members of Al Qaeda and ISIS.

So Ben you agree with Kevin to an extent when he says "While terrorism has no religion ISIS does" then go onto say that this war has nothing to do with religion. so which is it? If Islam or Christianity didn't exist, are you saying with authority that ISIS would. Correct me if I'm wrong ISIS is following the Koran to the letter which is why they are also killing other Muslims which they consider apostates from Islam.

If you took Islam away from ISIS would this war be happening ???

And religion is a mockery, be it Christianity or Islam with all there fairy tail views about how loving and merciful and just God is, If God allows this sort of thing to happen then he is pure evil

We allow Religion to be used as a tool, as in the case of ISIS. For example they use religious fear and ignorance to indoctrinate the likes of suicide bombers. Take away that tool and you will take away a lot of that hate and misunderstanding, Will it end all terrorists and political power hungry nutters of course not, but it will take away the very right for ISIS to exist which isn't a bad place to start...

But at the end of the day its all pie in the sky and rhetoric, Islam and Christianity or some other such crazy cause will always exist. Mans greed and stupidity never fails to amaze me

One could surely make the case that predictions are fulfilled daily due to the number of them

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/598434/Nostradamus-predict-ISIS-prophecies-linked-extremists-what-happens-next-Hitler-war

Healing can seem quick and slow even in a so called "civil " war. History has a way of repeating itself, if only changing the names could protect the innocent .

Https://youtu.be/DRkmmfJ5BzU

And religion is a mockery, be it Christianity or Islam with all there fairy tail views about how loving and merciful and just God is, If God allows this sort of thing to happen then he is pure evil

^^
If God would NOT allow things to happen, it would mean we are mere puppets without free will. A bit like the Truman Show, if you remember that movie.
The fact is that WE have an evil side to us and some have a lot of that in their system and the rest of the world suffers as a result.

My parents made me, should the world then fault them for all the things I do wrong? No, I have free will and will have to face the consequences of my own deeds. You could also call that karma, it tends to bite you in the bum, most especially when you have done things that you seemed to have gotten away with;)

Ingrid God doesn't exist, it's people's free will as you say that is responsible nothing more. If you look at it logically it reads like a fairy tail. But it seems many need a belief system even if it is totally illogical

Actually Darren said it pretty well

I've heard this view many times, how 'God doesn't exist', but most of those spouting that view have never made any attempt to look for the evidence, preferring instead to base their opinions on mans logic and reason and the material world that they see and have built around themselves.
One has to see beyond the earth and the sky, and not judge that what they see around them, is all that there is, and therefore there cannot be anything else.
You have to open your mind my friend and have that one thing that so many poor souls lack, and that is called 'Failth.'
Free your mind from these earthly constraints that you see about you, and believe in what your God has created.
For proof, try going to see a Medium, and you'll find the proof there that you seek in abundance, and you'll find that there is an Afterlife, as promised by God in the Bible, and that we never die.
Such a comfort when our nearest and dearest die, and we know that they are still there but just in a higher world than ours and that we will meet up with them again.
Free your mind, and have faith, that is the key.
God DOES exist.

We are going off topic so happy to start another thread to continue this particular topic

If god is real, as so many seem to believe, could we as his 'children' sue him for negligence? Larry......?

Larry,
The biggest problem is as I mentioned above, there is no use in eradicating ISIS or any other terrorist group. We search so long for a perfect answer, but sometimes there just isn't one. This is one of those cases.
How do you stop one man with a rucksack walking into a building and killing hundreds? Do you really think that by getting rid of ISIS these atrocities will stop? ISIS is almost irrelevant to the wider issue which is something we have to " give a fig about". There is an inherent hatred towards the west spreading and ISIS is just these peoples' latest evil flag to fly under. Get rid of ISIS, fine, but what about all those people spread throughout the world, lurking in dingy little holes in cities making bombs and hiding machine guns under their beds?
The group ISIS is just the very surface of the problem, and "not giving a fig" is, perhaps, the more serious issue that lurks beneath the surface. We are constantly giving these people an excuse to make the world a miserable place.
Either way, as I said before, these atrocities are truly awful and I'm afraid I will be proven right - they aren't going away for a very long time - the problem has spread too far now, and it really isn't just about ISIS.

Just a quick point, though, and Darren touched on it with his poignant list of tragedies.
Just look at that list. How often do we hear about those disasters - how often is the reporting on those unacceptable losses of human life half as much as that of Paris?
It's happening all the time out there to children and women and innocent lives - families destroyed EVERY day. But it happens in Paris, and suddenly it's that much worse. Why? Because it's in the west, happening to westerners? It's no worse. A life is a life.
That's the kind of bias that from a media and political point of view really doesn't help anything.

Larry.
In truth, of course you are right,ISIS need stopping, I agree, or at least getting on top of. We cannot just ignore them. But the ideology itself is not so easily overcome and as above, it only takes one fanatic with that ideology - ISIS or not

**NIcko
I was agreeing with Kevin in regards to reformation of the Koran, (to some extent) not with ISIS fighting for religion. You misunderstood my post, which admittedly, was a little unclear. I just feel a thug is a thug. Shoot someone and say you have done it for the Koran. Take the Koran away, for arguments sake, or reform it? Do I still believe these thhugs would kill or terrorise innocents in the name of something else? Absolutely.

Anyway......as you said, the thread has gone off topic a bit. Look at us all, squibbling about......religion :( This was supposed to be a peaceful and respectful thread for those who have tragically lost their lives. So I'll be done there.
All the best everyone; some interesting views.
Ben

No what you are saying isn't off topic just off the mark ... ISIS has to be addressed but guns and bullets aren't the answer long term. yes they must be slowed and unfortunately war is the only way at the moment that will stem the flow. but long term the Middle East has to come together as one to find a solution, one that can rob the terrorists of influence and power...

can i see that happening...... nope!

the world is a pretty F#@Ked up place if you ask me

Nicko - we certainly agree on that last point.
All the very best.

The real enemy is not a group, it is what lurks inside each and every one of us: evil. For some of us, this is just a small part and what it does is make us tell a little white lie here and there, but some allow their dark side to take over completely, for whatever reason there may be.
We all know Jimmy Saville, right? Pure evil. The worst thing about those kind of people is that their evil is hidden so well. The power they have allows them to continue and expand and those who know what is really going on are either threatened or bribed. It is the same for ISIS, they have billions of dollars to execute their plans and the money is what attracts young people of all nations to join them. Young people that have had a rotten childhood and/or little education. Evil lurks and power and money are the tools to draw followers and the means to silence or wipe out those that are deemed 'the enemy'.

People are killed each day, children are beaten to a pulp by parents each day and also raped sometimes, 1/3 of the female populations is raped at least once during their lifetime. Evil is not far away, it is inside us, it is amongst us and the only way to deal with it is to address it and expose it.
Also: each and every one of us should try and show what we so want to see in others. This famous psychologist Wayne Dyer said "Choose kindness over being right". Let us put that into practice.

As this really kind hearted member on P and Q alwawys says: I wish you all the best. Even if we don't agree, there is no reason for me to like you any less. Who is to say who is really 'right" anyway? No one knows anything for certain on this earthly plane:)

And now I really have to go back to my study books!!!

Ingrid

A wonderful post, Ingrid, and spot on. I think in principle, we all agree: These people are evil, their acts atrocious and they need stopping. I guess what we all differ on slightly is the solution. The problem is, I'm not really sure there is one...
Ben

At the end of the day, no matter what fine words are exhaled, one must always have the right to fight our enemies, or one will simply be eradicated. We must always have the right to defend ourselves, and if that means killing all evil monsters that walk the earth from time to time, then so be it.
Hoping the problem will go away and wringing one's hands in desperation, are never an option, or thinking that by talking to 'them', then they will listen to us and be friends.
That's a pipe dream, which some people unfortunately, seriously think that this is the solution to all agressors and agression waged against us.
Just laying down in front of evil doers and waving a white flag and hope they will leave us alone, doesn't cut it I'm afraid, when faced with a machine gun placed at your head.
Well, I live in the real world and I want my family and theirs to be protected by our government, and if that involves meeting force with force, then so be it.
I make no apology for that to anyone or indeed, God.
Violent people and murderers have always been part of the human race, and always have to be controlled and dealt with, the consequences of doing nothing, or going down the road of appeasement, are frightening.
There is a solution, and one that the human race has had to deal with since its existence, and will continue to have to deal with until our race leaves this earth, and that is to be brave and stand and fight.
Fight force with force. There is no other way..

Thank you Ben:)
I think freezing the assets of all members might be a good first step?
Each new member is payed for his services. Would be interesting to see what would happen if they have to risk their life without a financial reward;)

Ingrid

I live in a racist town, case in point, our bank was robbed a few weeks ago, the description was man dressed in black with a black mask on, facebook immediately became a lynch mob, let's run all the blacks out of town and kill them, then when it was discovered that he was white and a local, the rhetoric subsided.......what does that have to do with this.....The wrongful persecution of the Muslim people. Don't think for a moment that these governments don't know who these terrorists are, a lot of what is happening is done by design, not all of it, but most of it is and has been foreseeable .......most of the people killed thus far by Isis have been the Muslim people themselves, now they are branching out with the U.S. as the main target and anyone else who supports them, and why not, we interfered and stuck our noses in where we shouldn't have. You invade my house and try dictating how I should live, I'm not going to have love for you either. Europeans have been bullying nations for centuries and if you think they are going to sit back and take it, you're mistaken. We try to justify our actions by claiming our way is the right way, "says who", then when our soldiers are sent back in body bags the other side all of a sudden becomes the devil and we are ordained for our actions through our mourning.......what of the soldiers that we killed, weren't they family men as well, weren't they protecting their freedoms to live, weren't they protecting their rights....I hate war, I loathe the racism and hypocrisy that follows such.......I'm sure most of you watch the news or have a facebook account, just listen to the fear, listen to the injustices, but more than anything, listen to your own mind and draw your own conclusions, and seek the truth, don't be swayed and played by the vast majority, don't be a sheep......

Bob, that is the most honest and truthful post yet. These people do need dealing with, but we HAVE to accept some responsibility for our own actions too. Remember, in some corners of the world, Blair and Bush are regarded war criminals.
Weapons of mass destruction, wasn't it?
Get rid of ISIS, absolutely, but it will not solve the problem until something deeper changes.

Yes, to see that all of us are flawed and have/do evil things, not just 'them'.
So many people are sheep, Bob, even those who think they know 'the real truth'...which medium is not controlled/manipulated?

Ingrid

"The practical politician assumes the attitude of looking down with great self-satisfaction on the political theorist as a pedant whose empty ideas in no way threaten the security of the state, inasmuch as the state must proceed on empirical principles; so the theorist is allowed to play his game without interference from the worldly-wise statesman. "
Immanuel Kant, Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch, 1795

I for one would eschew Kant's famous moral dilemma in favor of the recognition that procrastination in the face of violence allows the violence to continue. Would I stop a man from harming my wife? Hell yes, and I would not stop to consider whether or not he may have some intrinsic or situational right to do so.

Do I understand that the eradication of ISIS and al-Qaeda would not end violence? Of course! But it would end the current spate of violence. While we wait hundreds of victims die in Syria, Iraq and the Kurdish sector of Turkey. Border routes to Jordan have been captured, leading to further expansion. If we continue to argue over the ethics of using force to stop violence we will be faced with the Caliphate that ISIS has declared as its intention.

<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2665670/ISIS-seize-key-border-crossings-Syria-Jordan-John-Kerry-lands-Baghdad-showdown-talks-Iraqi-PM.html>

The fact that ISIS has managed to bring destruction to worldwide destinations is in large part due to misguided delay in addressing the organization directly.

<http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/06/17/world/middleeast/map-isis-attacks-around-the-world.html?_r=0>

Larry

We made a bloody mess of Iraq and killed many innocent victims; I wonder if they feel it's the west that needs eradicating?
My point, again, is that getting rid of ISIS will not put an end to this violence - it may lesson it for a while, but what it will also do is anger a whole new generation of misguided fanatics. There has to be - ultimately - a deeper look at the problem.

In the meantime, I do agree, ISIS need stopping.

I really didn't want to get into this, but do any of you truly know who is responsible for creating Al Queada, and ISIS?....when you figure that out and learn the TRUTH, things may seem a bit more clearer to you, we can sit here and say they need stopped, which is true enough, but your governments need stopped as well, because truth be told, they are the basic foundations for groups such as this. History is a great thing, but only true history.

^^Thanks, Bob. You said the bitter words on my tongue very clearly.

Bob, I agree. But you really don't have to look that hard. The facts are there, clearly, for all to see if we could only be neutral enough to try.
Tony Blair and George Bush invaded Iraq. They did so because we were told they posed a very real threat to the west with weapons of mass destruction.
So we invaded. We killed scores of innocent people, and destroyed the country, in every conceivable sense, leaving it leaderless, directionless and a thousand other adjectives you could choose from.
The real kick in the guts, though, is that there were no weapons of mass destruction to be found. Because really all it ever was about was revenge for 9/11 - the need to look like something was being done.
Considering we bombed and destroyed parts of Iraq and killed innocent people for a reason that proved ultimately false, I would imagine that this act could be called a war crime.......even terrorism? Why not? Because we refuse to accept that of our beloved west?

ISIS are an evil, untameable group of twisted maniacs. But they have arisen because of the very poor decisions made by western leaders.
Do they fight for religion? maybe. Do they fight for revenge? certainly. But they do fight for a reason - why was it we bombed Iraq again? Was our reasoning any more sensible?

Isis and the West continue to act appallingly. It is spiralling and will continue to do so.

You go into a country, wipe out the parents of thousands of kids, who then are left not only orphans and impoverished, but also set upon by numerous sides. They are then taken under the wings of radical groups who use them for cannon fodder.
Sound familiar.
Yes, it is ISIS, but it is also a paradigm played out in several African regions as well.

Ben, If you agree ISIS must be stopped, yet you still refuse force, what exactly is your solution?

Larry, I did not say anywhere that force must not be used. My point is, the fact that it has to be, is at least partially, the west's fault.

In truth, as above, I don't think there any longer IS a solution. This problem will not go away, ISIS or not

We may agree on several things:

Beginning in 2003, the West (particularly Bush/Chaney & Blair) caused this current problem by removing the only linchpin that held the precarious rest-@-unrest together in the mid-east. As Secretary of State Colin Powell told George W Bush: "You break it, you own it."*

Additionally, by not providing effective security in Iraq as the de-facto government, Bush & company opened the doors to insurgents. In fact, the invasion of Iraq gave new life to al-Qaeda.

By not finishing the job in Afghanistan we gave the Taliban and their al-Qaeda allies the ability to resurge against the local thugs we put in charge.

By leaving much of the defense of Iraq in local hands we allowed genocide, which in turn gave rise to recruitable youths which al-Qaeda gathered up. When the leaders of al-Qaeda in Iraq split with the main group we did not respond to the much more voracious military force created in ISIS.

As to Syria, the US may not have caused that anarchy, but we've done precious little to resolve it. The turmoil in Syria has allowed ISIS to gather strength and income through blood-oil exports.

ISIS claims to have the intent to create a new Caliphate comprising Syria, Iraq and beyond. Meanwhile, in the territory occupied by ISIS there is no civilian administration; instead there is a military oppression that includes daily executions, amputations and floggings for violations of what Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi deems to be the "purest form of Islam"
<http://theweek.com/articles/572910/life-under-isis-caliphate>

In this setting, do we not owe it to those we ruined the duty to restore them to a secure position?
How else but by massive multi-lateral force against the estimated 30,000 troops under ISIS?

As to the argument that it won't solve any problems, there is historical precedent to the contrary: we took out Hitler and Mussolini and rebuilt Europe under the Marshall Plan. The mid-east deserves no less.

.

* in a 2007 interview with The Atlantic, Gen. Powell explained his warning and its consequences:
"[It] was a simple statement of the fact that when you take out a regime and you bring down a government, you become the government. On the day that the statue came down and Saddam Hussein's regime ended, the United States was the occupying power. We might also have been the liberating power, and we were initially seen as liberators. But we were essentially the new government until a government could be put in place. And in the second phase of this conflict, which was beginning after the statue fell, we made serious mistakes in not acting like a government. One, maintaining order. Two, keeping people from destroying their own property. Three, not having in place security forces--either ours or theirs or a combination of the two to keep order. And in the absence of order, chaos ensues."
<http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/04/a-conversation-with-colin-powell/305873/>

What you say makes perfect sense, Larry.

YOU guys are fools if you don't ralise that the Paris attacks were funded by the US, and that delghtful young brunette dressed in a white top and jeans who was seen in the photos crying her little eyes out? she's a crisis actress, the security guy standing next to her? her brother, they were seen in boston and sandy hook and some other place. open your eyes sheeple

Larry
I agree with the majority of what you say. But you could also argue, the fact that Bin laden was killed, but ISIS sprang up is proof that the problem can't be got rid of that easily.
This cannot be compared to Hitler's removal - times and technology have made that comparison irrelevant.
The problem that I see is that ISIS are like a malignant tumour. Certainly, the main 'lump' can be taken out, but what about all the cells that have spread? What of the thousands of nutcases that still hide out in the west wanting to kill innocent people with a bomb in a rucksack strapped to themselves? Removing ISIS won't solve this problem. As I mentioned, I would imagine it would help for a while, until someone else with billions in the bank comes along and gathers all the above mentioned nutcases to his banner.
Again, I really don't think there's a good solution anymore. The hatred or the 'cancer' has spread too far now to think that by simply removing the 'snake's head' will fix the problem.
I'm not sure what the answer is, ultimately, I just don't feel the removal of ISIS will cut it in the end.

Hazel, I'd love to see links to specific photos of the same individuals at the places you indicated. What is the conclusion you draw from your assertions with regard to international attacks attributed to ISIS and the conflagration in the middle east?

Ben, I will leave you with my namesake (PM prior to WW2). He thought he'd achieved peace in his time, you believe peace is not attainable - two manifestations of inertia. I will continue to advocate action by communications to my representatives and by speaking out.

For myself, I don't negotiate with cancer and will have it cut out, even if it has spread and more work is required. Never give up.

Larry,
A good answer. Never give up indeed. Be hopeless, but never be without hope!
All the very best
Ben

"What of the thousands of nutcases that still hide out in the west wanting to kill innocent people with a bomb in a rucksack strapped to themselves?"

Any credible source to that statement?

The US took in over 750,000 refugees since 9/11, not a single one arrested on domestic terrorism charges.

I mean, Larry pretty much nailed the major points, look at the history of the middle-east and you'll quickly understand as to why terrorist groups like why the Al Qaeda existed, and why ISIL exists. From the 1953 coup d'etat of Iran to the sponsoring the Mujahideen to wage a proxy war with soviet wars (and prior to that, I'd argue that most of the middle-eastern countries were relatively liberal/modern), and the Iraq invasion, a huge power vacuum was left that was unfortunately filled by those who had contempt for the West.

Even the current strikes that end up killing civilians just might push people to take the side of ISIS only because they're absolutely angry because they've seen their families blown to bits.

Not to mention the Arab springs is similar to the 1989 revolutions that resulted in the fall of communism, so there is proof that most Muslims do want change in governance that lead to the overthrow of Gaddafi (most wanted democracy, but there were factions such as ISIS and other various pro-government militias that popped up starting the Syria conflict that exists today).

ISIS only came to exist, because of the power vacuum that was whenever the west intervened; if there was to be an intervention, then make sure a new government forms in peace, and democratically, but this lead to a bigger question, as to what exactly happens after, if ISIS is defeated. They are not the government of any nations, should the west provide peacekeeping troops and training to the governments in charge (even if the western governments don't support the current government i.e Assad) But that's a question that needs to be answered after ISIS is defeated.

I did some googling Larry, and I believe Hazel is referring to this picture http://www.rawstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/crisis-actor-4.jpg ?