Thoughts for Paris Round II

I think most of us make positive changes it's just that some seek out more attention than others for doing so.

Dark Secrets...did you miss my question further up???

Call it what you will.

Lovely speaking with you, good to see you still have your fire

Helon, the issue you mentioned happens around a lot in Islamic countries, and it is the result of ignorance in Islamic rule. Basically in Islam Adultery is punished by stoning, not just love. A relationship without sex is not punishable under Islamic law, but some extremists punish for that. I don't know whether there was sexual relations in the case you just presented, but if there wasn't she shouldn't have been punished and the people who committed the crime are punishable under Islamic law.

Of course, most honor crimes are not done through a valid institute, but rather the families or tribes, which shouldn't be done. In Islam the judge is a council elected by Muslims, and they must be trustworthy. Like I said, lots of people take things like this lightly when they are more complicated.

Another thing is that forced marriage in Islam is invalid. In order for a marriage to be valid, the woman and man have to agree to it, they have to pronounce their agreement. What happens in forced marriages is that the parents agree without their children's agreement and they pay the shaikh (Islamic priest) to make it valid (on paper).

When I got married the shaikh made sure I was in a good emotional state and that I pronounced my agreement very clearly and he made me say it more than one time, while checking my voice for any indications that I may be forced. Then, he wrote the marriage contract. That is the way to do it properly. Alas, there are many corrupt shaikhs.

Other terms and conditions for valid marriage:
* Mental health
* Being of age/ aware of what marriage is (9 year olds do not count even if they are technically of age - had their periods)
* The woman/ man can state some conditions/ terms that have to be met
* A dowry for the woman from the man (doesn't have to be large).

And those (especially age) are not always met. Lots of Muslims make major mistakes in the name of Islam, there is a lot of corruption, especially in shaikhs.

Thank you for your honest reply and please don't think I'm having a "go" here but..previously you said it's again Islamic law to hurt a woman or child and now you say it's ok if they commit adultery? I'm just confused because one seems to contradict the other??

Lol, yes I know, we're just discussing the topic.

It's not ok to commit adultery, and it is punishable by stoning. I said love relationships while not recommended are not punishable by Islamic law. So, having a boyfriend/ girlfriend (with intent of marriage) is permissible in Islam, but there are barriers not to be crossed, like going out alone, holding hands.. etc. Those while forbidden are not punishable, what is punishable is sex. Even then, if the person repents (by their word) he/ she is not punishable. A person who is Muslim, commits adultery, has 4 male witnesses or 8 female witnesses who are objective, and does not repent (defies, and announces there is nothing wrong with it) is the person who receives the punishment.

or was it the hurt part that you were talking about? Either way that answers your question. It is a punishment for Muslims only and has many details to it. Punishments are laid to those who sin, because being Muslim they have to abide to Islamic rules. You can't be a Muslim and do everything that Islam forbids. If you are born Muslim, you are only accountable when you reach the age of 14. If you decide to leave Islam then, because you don't believe in the teachings then you are not punished (supposedly, not what happens in Saudi).

Sorry...still I'm confused because the couple I spoke of neither of them were married so no adultery was committed. The girl was promised by an arranged marriage but she was not married so...no adultery was committed...I'm unsure if they had sexual relations but if so that would be classed as fornication...wouldn't it...? Voluntary sex by two unmarried people.

Sorry about that, fornication is forbidden too, and punished. (I was confused about the term Adultery).

In the case you presented there was no evidence of fornication so they shouldn't have been punished, they should have been married. If they fornicated and were caught, had the witnesses and didn't repent, then the punishment is valid.

So, to answer your question, innocents are not to be punished, Muslims who commit sin are. Yes, hurting others is permitted by Islam in some cases, but there are terms in order for that to happen.

"then the punishment is valid" but earlier you said and I quote..."We are not only forbidden to harm children, women and elderly in war, but we are even forbidden to harm plants and animals"

Yes, an innocent. The children have not committed any sin, nor the women, and it is not our business in war to see whether the women have committed sin. We fight the people who are fighting us.

Plus, these punishments are not just carried out, there are conditions to each punishment. A trial has to be carried out.

Example:

The punishment for stealing is cutting the hand. If the person who stole stole something that belonged to him then the sentence is not carried out. If the person needed what he stole to live (i.e a poor man steals a loaf of bread) then the sentence is not carried out. If the person is younger than 14, then the sentence is not carried out. If there is no evidence that he/she stole, then the sentence is not carried out. If the person is a non-muslim, then the sentence is not carried out.. etc.

There are rules and conditions to it all.

In the case you mentioned there was no trial, no witnesses to fornication, no sin committed. Just two people in love. So, the sentence is not valid.

Well...you keep saying that Islam does not allow harm on children, women or the elderly and then go on to say...but...should they do this that or the other then...yes..that's fine...contradictions all round I think...

Making things clearer:

Harm on children, animals and plants: Not permissible no matter what

Harm on adults: Not permissible, unless:
* It is a Muslim who has committed sin and stood trial, found guilty and did not repent (there has to be some kind of law to insure Muslims follow the teachings of Islam)
* It is a criminal
* It is someone who began the fight/ war and there is no solution but to fight back.

Every country has a constitution, and laws and if citizens don't abide they are punished. Same with Islam, there are laws that the people are punished for if they cross. We agree to those laws once we become Muslim. If you are born Muslim, you have the choice to leave Islam once you are 14, then, if you sin, no punishment comes upon you.

If a Muslim country goes to war they are only permitted to fight after the other country begins the fighting, and only the soldiers, not the women, elderly and children in their homes. that is what I meant.

Is it clear now?

No..it's not. You just keep contradicting yourself and you've still not made it clear who actually judges the people who have done 'wrong'. If Allah forgives...why can't he forgive all?

I think...in your culture what you consider as a sin...we would consider as a mistake in life and learn from it..no hands chopped off, no stoning..just accept a mistake was made and move forward...

Yes Hellon, if the person repents they are admitting it was a mistake.. the law is not inforced on the person who admits it a mistake and promises not to repeat. Plus not all muslims are permitted to inforce these laws and not on every land and not on people who do not believe in them (non muslims).

Like you have courts and judges and trials, that's how it is with islamic law. There are courts and judges and trials and the sentence is only given to those who don't repent. If the country I am living is is not Islamic I have no right to change their laws. I am required by Islam to follow their laws.

If someone steals from me I cannot cut that persons hand because I am not given the authority to. No one is given that power. By Islamic law I have to go to a court if I don't forgive that person. The court finds evidence, witnesses and looks into the reasons for that persons actions if they are just he/she is let go. If not, he/ she must display their remorse and wish to do better. Then, the person is let go and forgiven. There are even rehabilitation centers/ programs that existed in Islamic countries before for this soul perpose. The extreme laws are only for those extreme cases, and as a last and final result.

ISIS, or anybody for that matter, are not given the authority by Islam to inforce these laws.

Again, if the person who made the mistake admits it and learns from it (repents) then by islamic law no one has the right to inforce these laws. It says in the Quran, ''Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.'' AlBakara 160. That is the first thing we look for after a person commits a sin. If they admit to it they are free to go without cutting hands... stoning.. etc

"Every country has a constitution, and laws and if citizens don't abide they are punished. Same with Islam, there are laws that the people are punished for if they cross. We agree to those laws once we become Muslim. If you are born Muslim, you have the choice to leave Islam once you are 14, then, if you sin, no punishment comes upon you."

Yeah? Well, I was born muslim but I didn't agree to anything, and I never had the choice to leave Islam. And I never heard that a muslim has the choice to leave Islam?! I'm an Atheist now, and I live with my boyfriend and that's why every muslim I knew thinks I should be killed. :)

I'm not saying that this religion or all muslims are responsible for the crimes ISIS members are committing, but I can't stand hearing Islam is a peaceful religion. There's nothing peaceful about it.

Hey Dark Secrets, I think you missed my question so I'll repeat if you have the time.

"Do you ever worry that having a book that was written so long ago be protected from any kind of update might put Islam out of touch with modernity? I mean the best of modernity as in philosophy, science and evolution of ethics."

Kevin, my answer was the first response below your question. Anyway, here it is:

Not really, because I find all modernity in the Quran. Actually changing it would cause problems, because what I claim is made by a god that does not make mistakes is not changeable by a human who is can commit mistakes. Furthermore, the Quran has lots of modern information in it, info that scientists are now discovering. One is that there is a tiny being on top of a mosquito, and the fact that female mosquitoes are the ones that suck blood. This was mentioned in the Quran way before the discovery of the information. Also, in Al-Tareq (verses 1 and 2) the quran describes a piercing star that has a knocking sound, this was discovered recently and you can hear it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggNeLYjNsnQ

There are many more scientific facts that have been mentioned in the Quran way before they were discovered. There are also scientific facts (we will call them hypothesis) that hasn't been proven yet; one of those is that there are 11 planets in our solar system and scientists are in the process of discovering other planets.

Outdated info, like stories of the past are there in the Quran as a warning or a lesson to us, and it says that in the Quran. History is meant to be learned from. As for the teachings of the Quran, they apply to any day, date and time, ask me and I could answer you of any teaching that you would consider outdated.

Nourayasmin... I don't think you should be killed. I don't agree with people who just go around killing. There are many details to an Islamic ruling. I know some people who have turned athiest from islam and they're still intact. Not all Muslims live on human impulses.
No verse in the quran says that we should kill people who chose another religion, on the contrary, they are free to believe whatever they want and are accountable for their actions in the hereafter. The only time a ''murtad'' (person who changes their religion from islam) is supposed to be punished is when they fight against muslims and force muslims out of islam.

There are Muslims who misinterpret islamic rule and how it all works.

Exactly, the Koran is just like the bible, in order for a person to get the full meaning you must read the entire book, not read a scripture, phase, psalm, proverb, etc. and run with it......people tend to do that and get lost in the full meaning of the entire "word" or purpose so to speak.......back in the day right here in America a wife could go to her priest, preacher whatever, and say she wanted to leave her husband because he was physically abusive, most were always told, if ye suffer from unrighteousness, Ye are truly blessed......that is a phrase in the bible, but definitely was not to be a justification for spousal abuse.......ill never forget being stood up in a classroom at 5 years old and having a nun break a ruler over my hand saying that I was evil because I was born left handed, so you see, it's not just Islam where the interpretation is distorted, it's all of them and on who is doing the interpretation.........here's a parable that should be in every book, don't believe everything you hear, and trust no man when it comes to divinity........thanks for the educational posts.....

Hey Zahra, if you don't mind, I'm just interested in getting your perspective regarding: 1) french muslim groups calling on imams to receive a 'license' in order to preach (as in the content of sermons, not sure what the arabic equivalent word) islam that does not push towards extremist propaganda, and 2) the ahmadiyya community, in particular their persecution in pakistan & afghanistan. My understanding is that it stems from the belief that the promised messiah arrived as Mirza, whereas other non-ahmadiyya believe that the promised messiah, is yet to come. Is this correct? Are there any other historical events that added fuel towards the relationship between non-ahmadiyya & ahmadiyya muslims.

Also, thank you for taking time to answer questions.

Exactly Bob... which is why all holy books should be interpreted and the interpretation written, standardised and revised every couple of years.

^ and Kevin I think that also answers your question. Any ''outdated'' info can be solved by renewing the interpretation.

1. I agree... not only that, all preachers/ imams should be background checked as many of them are corrupt in their own lives. My aunts ex was a shaikh who appeared on tv and preached islam and yet was terrible with his family. He beat my aunt until she could take no more and ran away and then he took her kids and didn't let her see them. She still can't contact them to this day.

2. I haven't heard of ahmediya and non ahmediya. However, there is conflict between different muslim sects and even between sub-sects and sub divisions of the sub sects. The ''fuel'' of the biggest conflict is not about our massaih but about the khalifat of the islamic state after the death of our prophet (p.b.u.h). Some believe that the khalifat (rulers) were the prophets companions, others believe it's the holy household of the prophet (the decendants of the prophet from his daughter Fatima). The first believe the khalifat was placed by the prophet himself and the second believe that it was a godly choice. The first believe that the holy household of the prophet were wrong to object to the khalifat of the companions and so must be punished for their disobayence of the khalifa and the others believe that the holy household of the prophet were opressesed because they were denied their right. That is where the conflict starts. The first group are fighting the second group because they are disobedient to the islamic khalifat of the companions. This conflict is not logical to me since in the quaran in says ''to you your religion (belief) and to me mine'' Al-Kafiroon; 6, in regards to any conflict of belief. That is the answer simply to you your belief and to me mine. We can still live in peace.