God if you dare.. part 1

God...... if you dare

I know this is an old record around here and I'm probable not going to change anything but maybe some will ask a few questions and challenge their own beliefs.
Only through questioning does any change happen in this world.

Those among you who would put answers to my questions it would be great...

(Note: I got some of the numbers off the internet)

For those that know me know I'm atheist, my daughter thinks I'm the most atheist person she's met. But I still respect those that follow any religion. I don't understand how or why but its up to the individual. I just live in hope that if they just sat down and logically looked at the reasons and myths that surround religion, I think maybe the light bulb would turn on. Religion does some good in the community granted, But a lot of what's wrong in this world stems from religion (of course not by a long shot but a lot) not just now, but thought out history

For example as soon as Christianity gained a foot hold in Europe about the 11th century after the decline of the Roman empire we went into the Dark ages where humanity regressed. The churches started spreading control, stifling advancement, free thinking, a period of catholic corruption. If this hadn't happened it is widely thought that humanity would be well advanced from where we are today. The Romans had sanitation with sewers and sanitation, developed roads and Highways some 55,000 Km, built Aqueducts, Surgery tools and techniques, Concrete, calendar, Newspapers. Central heating, Insulated glazing which wasn't reinvented until the 1930's. With the advent of Christianity much of this was lost for hundreds of years

But I'm digressing a little. Now I'm no expert in religion or the Bible, even though I have attempted to read it. But I look at it from a logical stand point. There is much to it and its been refined over the centuries to counter those, such as me. But it has a few fundamentals, one is gaining access to the afterlife "Heaven" and those that fall from the path go to hell

So I will begin with Heaven

And if you are reading this and are a Christian have you ever thought about or questioned this

1 Prior to the advent of Christianity in approx 33 CE there was no heaven or hell ? so those humans that died prior to 33 CE where did they go ? was there an afterlife for them, note we are talking millions upon millions of human beings here

2 after 33 CE, at the beginning of Christianity, very few had heard of the teachings Jesus, yet they were condemned to hell for eternity purely for not knowing of his existence ?

3 This holds true even today for those that don't follow Christianity. All Muslims, Hindi, Buddhists. Remote tribes in Africa or PNG that have never heard of the word of god ? there are approx. 2.2 billion Christians in the world and about 4.8 billion that aren't. so do the 4.8 billion that are wrong and not Christians go to hell as it says in the Bible ?

4 What of all the other creatures of God that, walk, fly, swim on this earth all the insects, animals, birds, fish, where do they go after death ?

5 How big is this place called heaven and how crowded would it be now after 2000 years ?

6 who would want live for eternity ? many on earth are happy to die after 70 - 90 years after living a fulfilling life. Would anybody want to live for a million x a million years ?

The world created in 6 days 6000 years ago

According to the Bible God created the word and everything in it in 6 days some 6000 years ago

Now Christianity discounts evolution and anything to do with it. Not to would mean the death of Christianity, those that control it, understand that fundamental, as it would wash away the foundations of the religion

There are an estimated 8,740,000 species on earth each one unique with their own habitat, what they consume, breed and live. And new species are being discovered each year. There were approx. 18,000 discovered last year alone. Did God create each and every one with its own unique habitat, mating rituals, life cycle colouration ?

Its estimated that 99% of all species that ever lived on hearth are extinct, that's something like 5 billion species. Now did God not like these species and wiped them all out ? did he spend 1 day making them all, then wiping them out the next. Or do you think science is lying and none of these species ever existed ?

What of the Dinosaurs ? using modern aging techniques they lived on the earth Millions, many, many millions of years ago, way before the 6000 years ? how can this be if you are a Christian ? do you think all the fossils are fake ? that there were no dinosaurs ? or that God made them 6000 years ago and then wiped them out with all the other species before he created Adam and Eve and the other 8.74 million species ?

Coming part two

I would not dare to answer any of those questions objectively .

I accepted the position of Godfather to several of my nieces and nephews , while I sought a commitment of my own . I found question number five most amusing 5 How big is this place called heaven and how crowded would it be now after 2000 years ?
I used to solicit dates from a woman that managed a burger place . At the time the place had a sign in the front "Size Matters " I was not intimidated because I imagined my heart to be competitive . I am by no means a fundamentalist
and I am not sure I would still be alive under a strict survival of the fittest government . Again I am not saying your questions are not valid . I believe I do have a problem with the math of moral codes as innate , but I know you would not approve of a system that was strictly might is right.

Just a note, Nickp. I was taught evolution by nuns and priests all the way back in the 50s.

The Catholic position is certainly not mine to present, but back then we were told the Bible was written to guide people who needed answers to basic natural issues and moral conflicts. We were told the bible is quite often symbolic, not literal.

In the USA there has come a split between those Christians who follow these tenets and Fundamentalists who believe in the literal words of the Bible.

Interesting thread Nicko...kind of reminds me of the movie The Man Who Sued God starring Billy Connelly...anyone who hasn't watched it seriously should!

Just another question that you may like to add regarding the Christian faith <<<I did not use a capital here but my program self corrected for me :) If a baby/child or anyone for that matter dies before being baptised they will forever remain in purgatory and never be allowed into heaven. I mean, a pure innocent little baby, who has done nothing..come on, what kind of god would do that? (funny how my program never corrected the word god to a capital BTW?)

That's the thing with Christianity Larry it's had to adapt and change to survive, even if it goes against the very fundamentals in the bible, are you saying you believe in the overall picture of Christianity but the bible got some of it wrong ?? Which bits are right and which are wrong ??religion can't fight against science anymore since it now has facts you can look at under the microscope. Religion has only faith and a book written some 30 - 90 years after Jesus was killed.. And nobody really knows who wrote it.

We as a species are evolving, we are not the same genetically as we were some 6000 years ago. So does this mean we are no longer in Gods image ?

I think it's an easy throw away to say the bible is just a guide, but you can't escape the fundamental that God is supposed to have created everything, if you believe in God you must believe in that . And that brings me back to did he create the dinosaurs etc and the other 5 billion species only to wipe them off the face of the earth ??? And when did he create them did he create one species and they evolved into thousands or did they evolve some 4 billion years ago out of primordial soup

It's impossible to relate religion and evolution, they are mutually exclusive if you put your thinking cap on

Whether a God or not, evolution or science etc the fact is we are all going to die.. heaven or hell or nothing in the after we will not know until the day we die! I was brought up Christian and all I got from it was to be a good kind person and you will go to heaven.. I live by being good as do all of my mates yet we all suffer from mental health issues! why do the good suffer and the evil prosper? I've had too much to drink to remember all the questions asked. Ask a vicar and the only response you will get is 'we don't question Gods will' or 'God works in mysterious ways'.. Fact is nobody has any real answers!

I think it should be clear to anyone who has even an shred of compassion in their hearts for the troubles of other people that the Roman Catholic church is a corrupt and damaging institution. You only need to look at how its leaders handled the child abuse scandal...and actually are still handling it.

Did any of you know they had a huge meeting to discuss the issue. All the halloween hats were there. Someone proprosed a one strike and you are out policy...and it was voted down. Yeah, that is right. The leaders of a religion that claims some divine authority on ethical truth and human direction decided that if a priest abuses a child they can't be sacked from their job. I don't really need to say any more.

Humanity has moved beyond religion now. No one except lunatics really believes as we used to hundreds of years ago...except of course in some parts of the world were Islam is held in place through violence and oppression...but even that is breaking apart..painfully but surely.

Anybody in authority can and will take the piss if they have it in them out of vulnerable people.. sad but true! I agree that only lunatics agree with how we used to live hundreds of years (or not even so long) ago! I didn't even know that I was abused until I reached 30 and was going to write a book on embarrassment.. it was a taboo subject. I was 4.. nothing to do with religion but damaging just the same.
Some people are just pure evil and can't resist temptation, I know that if any of my kids were abused (sexually or any other way) as they grew up or even now that they are adults I would not be responsible for my actions.. back when I was a kid, the crim got sent away to another family member and then it was a taboo subject.. he lives a normal life and I can not!..

P.s I have read plenty of books and watched films on how kids were treated in catholic homes by priests and nuns and it makes me feel sick to the stomach! but that is not to say I am against all catholics.. anybody in any sector can abuse their power and plenty have, but you are right the way these people are 'getting away with it' is sick and twisted!

God created the tyrannosaurus,
It was good, he was happy with his work

He created the Stegosaurus and the Triceratops and many more.

They ate the flora and each other, but left the planet alone.

The air was the cleanest it had ever been
the grass and streams a plenty.

God's foe sitting on the moon, disliked this. He tossed an asteroid at the earth and wiped out these reptilian bores.

So God created Man, once the ice age buggered off.

Man set about destroying the planet and each other.

God's nemesis was happy with this and left the moon, for another galaxy elsewhere.
He didn't pass through heaven on his way through.

***

Maybe when we die the following happens

We are reborn, into another Human.
As we take our last breath our soul moves into a fertilized embryo.

We are reborn as another animal if we fail to get to Heaven, maybe if we are a mass murderer we come back as a slug. If we are a good slug we are reborn as a snail and so on.

We die and re animate on another planet billions of miles away.

We are not alive at all, we are already in Heaven having died previously. We can still die in Heaven and are reborn if we have not sinned. If we have sinned and do not deserve forgiveness then we cease to exist. (naturally weeding out the bad eggs)

We take a side step into a parallel universe. Where we have a second attempt at the same life.

We die and move to Heaven, It is an place that exists only in our collective minds. Overpopulation doesn't exist because we only encounter people in Heaven that we have encountered in real life.

****

I think religion may eventually die out. It might take a 1000 years. Trouble is will man survive man for another 1000 years?

I have read the Bible, The Koran and a little bit of The Tora ! And all this knowledge made me decide that Religion is Men made and it is not for me!!!!
But make no mistake, I believe in God with all my soul for it is everywhere, in every sunset, in every budding flower.. God doesn't give a **** about your coloure, sexuality, religion,... God has given you freewill to love or hate, to kill or to create... God only created you, God is not here to govern you, to look after you! You are the master of your Life, your Destination so it is time to Understand not look for an "outside help" when you have a crisis in your life, dont pray for forgiveness to God but ask the one you have hurt and if you are lucky they might grant you one...

I guess the obvious question you have now is : how do I feel God?

Well, it is easy ~~~~smiles~~~~
Show Love and empathy to all leaving things, be kind and honest..

So illum if religion is man made why not God as well ?? the two go together

Where did this God of yours come from and why is he so important If he has no input other than create you

I have a friend who is similar, for most of his life he was a devout christian but when he looked a bit harder and 2 and 2 didn't make 4. He now feels the same as you, even though he still goes to church he says he prays to god in his own way

To me its a bit of a cope out, its being pseudo religious. It always interests me as to why many need this other source of energy in there life to give themselves strength, this innate all powerful presence that's everywhere but nowhere. thing is we already possess that energy, we just have to realize it comes from within not from without

"So illum if religion is man made why not God as well ?? the two go together "

No way!!! The 2 have nothing in common... Religion is a power struggle between men, You and Me are here not by evolution but by design by the One!!!

Oh.... and which human did he create first ? evidence points to remains found of homo Sapiens some 200,000 years ago, was that when God first started it ?

Note that there is evidence that we are still evolving, we are not the same genetically now as we were some 15,000 years ago

"evidence points to remains found of homo Sapiens some 200,000 years ago"

Ok, so you want to praise Darwinism so let me ask you this: is 200k years enough to develop a frontal lobe? Or perhaps explain one thing to me: how come I don't see any Evidence of ongoing Evolution today?
I mean, can you see a fish trying to grow a leg to walk on land????

Presence that's everywhere but nowhere. thing is we already possess that energy, we just have to realize it comes from within not from without

^^ yeah, 'cause God is within us.

"^^ yeah, 'cause God is within us."

~~~~~~~~clapping loud~~~~~~~~

Yes!!!!

Well yes there are fish that have legs that can walk on land for a short period its called a Mudskipper

and i can give you evidence that humans are also evolving. have you had your wisdom teeth taken out ? ever wonder what they are for. Thousands of years ago our diet was different, much harder to chew and digest our teeth wore down faster, we needed secondary teeth to replace the worn ones we evolved a larger jaw and what we call wisdom teeth, now they are not needed and our jaws are smaller in size which means they create problems for some and have to be removed

Another evolutionary step is lactose. In our history like all animals we could only drink milk as babies as we grow older our bodies can't break down the lactose. But since cattle and sheep were domesticated some 10,000 we have consumed it as adults, at first we were genetically lactose intolerant some still are but its estimated 95% are now lactose tolerant thought genetic mutation over the last 10,000 years

If you can drink milk your genes have evolved over the last 10000 years

Yeah, 'cause God is within us.

those are easy throw away lines a bit like "gods will" and " he works in mysterious ways"

Tell me Everlasting was God within the more that 1 Million under 5 year old Hindi children that die every year that he sends to purgatory for eternity ?

"Well yes there are fish that have legs that can walk on land for a short period its called a Mudskipper "

Really, is that all you can show?!?!?!? A firkin Mudskipper!!!! Prove me one ongoing link between humans and apes... Something, anything in between!!!

" have you had your wisdom teeth taken out ? ever wonder what they are for"

to loose them!!!! Any dentist will tell you Bro..

"Another evolutionary step is lactose. In our history like all animals we could only drink milk as babies as we grow older our bodies can't break down the lactose. But since cattle and sheep were domesticated some 10,000 we have consumed it as adults, at first we were genetically lactose intolerant some still are but its estimated 95% are now lactose tolerant thought genetic mutation over the last 10,000 years "

You might want to reread your post on this issue! Lactose intolerance affects as many as 75 percent of the worlds population. I can hardly call that evolution

Sorry illum its you that needs to do a bit more research, by 95% i mean they are able to ingest milk products without having an allergic reaction. Babies make Lactase that breaks down Lactose. after weaning lactase production stops. as i said after the the domestication of cows camels sheep goats some 10000 years ago our genes started mutating meaning some could get the full benefit of drinking milk, before the gene variants arose the milk had to be fermented, but that was less efficient at getting the full benefit from milk... 90% of the world population now has some degree of lactose tolerance

But it varies from population to population and where these domesticated animals were first situated

as for the missing link, Ape and Humans are on different evolutionary paths, there was a cross over with Neanderthals who became extinct some 40000 years ago and Homo Sapiens, in fact there have been genetic testing done on some humans that actually have some neanderthal genes

Tell me Everlasting was God within the more that 1 Million under 5 year old Hindi children that die every year that he sends to purgatory for eternity ?

In my opinion, evolution and creationism go hand in hand.
What I mean is that God is that energy that you speak about that is within us. I also agree that the versions of the bible are men made books. And I doubt that God sends those kids to purgatory. I am not even certain that Heaven or Hell exists beyond the Earth realm. But at least as per I currently have inclined my beliefs to, I could almost say that God is within each of us. Within each individual... He is even in plants, and animals. Except that they can't exactly feel or think about God. Their intellect or I don't know how to call it is not fully developed yet. I am not sure but if evolution continues to the point that even dogs could fully articulate their thoughts then they would also be able to reach God. The answers to our questions are found within us. However, finding the answers is hard.

On a side note:

drinking milk is not as necessarily as good for us. It doesn't provide as much as the calcium that advertisement claims does. But it's really tasty though.

^ "I have read the Bible, The Koran and a little bit of The Tora !"

Illi, the Torah is made up of books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Also, evolution (better called natural selection) is simple: traits that have greater survival value enable the creature a greater chance to have offspring, which tends to allow that trait to be passed on. As the environment changes, animals and plants adapt.

Three precise instances of ongoing evolution:

1) The peppered moth in industrial England. Basically the moth was well camouflaged against the white spottled trees until coal furnaces in the industrial revolution blanketed the forests with soot. In this period the white spotted moth all but disappeared, being supplanted by much darker moths. Bird predation is considered a major factor (not necessarily the only one) in the natural selection of the better camouflaged darker moths. Since clean air provisions have taken place, the soot has steadily declined and today the darker moths are now nearly gone, replaced by the lighter moths again, which are once more easier hidden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/Moths/moths.html [explaining why anit-evolutionists are incorrect]
http://www.mothscount.org/text/63/peppered_moth_and_natural_selection.html

2) The Samoyan Blue Moon Butterfly male embryos were super decimated by a virus that had little effect on female embryos. Within 10 generations the 1% of the males which survived had passed on their resistance to their offspring so that the result was a leveling in gender proportion the same as before the virus attacked.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070712-butterflies.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/but-madam-butterfly-where/
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/07/12_butterfly.shtml

3) Darwin's Finches not only set him on the path to deciphering how natural selection works, they continue to provide evidence today. A small finch species had relatively large beaks, enabling it to eat larger seeds which carried more nutrition. A larger species of finch entered the area, competing for the same food. The smaller finches evolved to have smaller beaks, better equipped to eat the smaller seeds and endure the invasive species.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060714-evolution.html

NOW, in response to your argument that we cannot provide intermediate stages of evolution: this argument was made back in the 19th Century but has continued fully ignoring its steadily increasing lack of validity. The genetic and fossil records shows many intermediate stages in human evolution:
Prosimians 65 million years ago (M.Y.A)
Monkeys 40 M.Y.A
Prehistoric apes 30-20 M.Y.A
Modern apes 17-4 M.Y.A
Ramapithecus: (pithecus = ape) 14 - 8 M.Y.A. ... the most ancient human ancestor
Australopithecus ramidus: (austral = southern; ramidus = root) 4.4 M.Y.A.
Australopithecus afarensis: (Afar = a region in Africa) 4 - 2.8 M.Y.A.
Australopithecus africanus: (africanus = African) 3 - 2 M.Y.A.
Australopithecus robustus: (robustus = strong) (2 - 1.5 M.Y.A.)
Australopithecus boisei: (1.8 M.Y.A.)
Homo erectus: (1.6 million to 200 000 years ago.)
Homo sapiens: (sapiens = thinking, 400 000 to 40 000 years ago, Southern Africa)
Homo sapiens sapiens (... 40 000 to present) earliest were Cromagnons.
http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/waymac/African%20Canadian%20Studies/Unit%202%20About%20Africa/00human_evolution.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution#Evidence_from_the_fossil_record
http://www.sociologyguide.com/introduction-to-sociology/human-evolution.php

Sorry for a double post, but this one addresses Nicko's questions to me.

I was raised Catholic, I do not profess it now. My friends consider me one of the most spiritual persons they know who does not believe in religion.

The problem with science's debunking of God/gods is that they (we) can do no better. The issue with gods/God really comes down to First Causes. The attraction of a First Cause is the ability to point to Something and say you do not need to conjecture before it. For many religions this Something is God. Scientists have unwittingly come up with their own First Cause: the Big Bang.

For myself, it matters not what was the First Cause, or whether we are in a never beginning state. What matters to me is the life going on around us, the amelioration of suffering and the ability to develop in both a personal, human sense and to preserve life for the future.

Every time the sun sets to your west someone on a ship or continent may be watching it rise . The word purgatory is the purging of an entity or soul. Nicko , do you recall being born ? Do you assume you never felt something that would bring tears to your eyes . I was taught there were four states of existence Limbo no pain nor pleasure , purgatory or pain for the purging of the soul , Hell for those who desire evil as and alternative to paradise . I confess I (if it would left to me would rather believe Adolf Hitler is resting in peace as that there are unborn children destined to suffer for the sake of a more user friendly soul

There is a controversial priest that was in my diocese that refuses to believe that hell ever existed as imagined by many self righteous Catholics

https://youtu.be/tWCGkea9xqE

https://youtu.be/TMqhc0EjSyU

For me, the concept of God is simply an acknowledgement of impenetrable knowledge. It is something to celebrate. This is the most wonderful and most human aspect of being alive. We will learn incredible things about the material universe with our amazing brains, but our perception will always be flawed and our truths will be provisional and based on probability. Science teaches us that much. In a way, in its thorough worship of the world, in its ceaseless unveiling of how much we have yet to discover, science is the most spiritual subject out there. It is everywhere, it is boundless, and it brings wonder and peace to my mind. That is God to me.

Being indoctrinated is for chumps, obviously. And being a spiritual person doesn't mean you stop respecting evidence-based research and start spouting drivel about evolution not existing (UGH if I have more time, I'll be back to illuminate someone here).

It is noble to find individual meaning in life however you like (without causing harm) but, philosophically, religion is about a deference, and I like to understand it like that.

I'm still waiting for the first brave Christian to step up here to defend their faith. But they usually stay clear of hopeless heathens.

I was just thinking about these religious debates and how many there have been over the years...numerous I believe and the major religions mentioned have always been Christians and Muslims with a dash of hindu, jews and some others but...no one that I can remember has mentioned the Church of Scientology ...Mormons...or Jehovah's Witnesses all big money spinners so why do they never get a mention???

Save your energy Nicko. What evidence are you going to provide to Koan when he so clearly doesn't value evidence? He is trolling you bro, even the pope has accepted evolution. Don't bite.

Many have faith that Evidence can be transported through cyberspace . In debates the etymology becomes relevant to us who believe word meanings evolve . I recall having a desire to denigrate the papacy . Imagine my surprise when I found out the man who is known as the author of the Copernican heliocentric theory was a bishop that I imagine suppressed his own evidence for the sake of the authority of papal doctrine. Pope John Paul 11 gave closure to the suspension of Galileo and a statue of Giordano Bruno is said to honor his memory where he was burned on charges of heresy which included supporting the idea that the earth revolves around the sun

Creator, creatures , creation ..what if anything do they share in common ?

Would it be an over simplification to place the axiom of our discourse at whether God created religion or did religion create the Christian God who allowed himself to be crucified by religious fanatics through the mystery of the Holy Trinity ?

Not only do i find this thread hilarious, but also a tad disturbing, and this has always been my problem with religion, and those who don't believe.......they'll try to justify themselves and coercer others to understand their point of view, or their belief, and if you can't grasp that, you're either a heathen and going to hell or you're an idiot that doesn't understand logic, or science.....you really can't explain any of it away, of course there are many things that can be questioned from either side, but the truth is nobody can ever explain the power of blind faith or beliefs in the spiritual world.......In any event, when and if you guys find out all the true answers let me know, then I don't have to wait to die for them to be revealed as the Bible states somewhere......lol

Aww, now, Abby. You know I don't steer clear of heathens!

I find no use in defending my faith because arguing about the love of Jesus is a tad hypocritical to me. God is a big God and He does not require me to defend Him, but to love people. There's a difference to me between religion and spirituality. Religion is man made and terrifying, full of laws that are looking for ways to condemn you. Jesus isn't about that, though there will be judgment one day. I will never pretend to have all the answers, and I do have many questions myself. I also know what my personal experiences are, and that give me proof that God is real. My experiences won't change anyone's mind. I'll never chase someone into Heaven.

Instead I choose to live my life following Jesus. That means I do my best to listen to His voice, His guidance, and His plan. I mess up, ALL the time. We are all broken, fallen people, not one single person can escape sin (daily!). I do not see my sin as any bigger, smaller, better, or worse, than anyone else's sin. God extends grace and forgiveness to me, the least I can do is extend that same grace and forgiveness.

I'm also not anti science. Science is an incredible thing I truly will never be able to wrap my brain around - my mind doesn't work that way. ;)

Ha, I wrote that specifically to bait you, Britt. Thanks for coming over. I get that people won't usually swerve others' opinions with their own deep beliefs and personal journeys, but I think it is healthy to keep questioning your path, especially if it's carved out by any sort of mass thinking system (this includes science research teams keen on receiving government grants). I know you find great gratification on the one you're on, and it drives you toward doing good, so that's wonderful.

Great to know you have a respect for what science has to say. Do you, then, have any moral and intellectual conflicts over the teachings of the bible and scientific evidence?

It doesn't matter what we believe in or not. If it means you are a good person and try to do right by others, then it can only be a good thing - be you religious or an atheist.
The bible is in itself a great moral guide, if nothing else. maybe we could all learn from each others' beliefs and get that much closer to the truth. The problem is, people always want a black or white answer: there is a God, or there is science. Why not both? You could argue that science disproves the image of God that we have created...but does that mean it disproves the idea of a 'higher being' altogether?
I don't know and I don't think anyone will ever truly know. So people should just concentrate on being good. As immature as that sounds, wouldn't it make a difference? Instead, the world spends its time arguing over a pointless pursuit: does God exist? The fact we are still here debating it says something.....
I am not religious, personally, but I respect anyone who tries to live their lives properly - religious or not.

Take care everyone,
Ben

That's a great perspective Ben, wish everyone thought that way, I actually imagine they do, but then topics like this confuse them or interfere with those very concepts.

And you knew I couldn't help myself, Abbafabulous!

Honestly, no, I don't have any conflicts. I don't put much time or research into anything scientific to be honest - and my thought is there is no way that every piece of this world/universe could have been put into the Bible. It'd be impossible. We aren't here to argue science in my opinion. We're not here to argue at all, technically. The Bible is a book of relationships and relational living. I believe God created everything and in that He created the sciences..as beautiful and complex as it is.

No one can prove to me 100% God isn't real. No one can prove 100% that God is real. So evidence leaning in either direction may help sway opinions or lead you to a belief, but overall, no matter where you fall in your belief system, I think it Is safe to say we all have a calling and a longing for purpose. That's deep rooted in humanity. For me, I believe God placed that within each of us to do great things - like follow a passion in science and learn more about the universe He created.

There are folks on both sides of this discourse that believe blind is implied to come before faith. I am sure the same folks have another forerunner to the word hope ,it seems both sides are conditioned to believe love is conditional , does this make sense? common sense for a common era ?

It seems two brothers built a machine in the image and likeness of a bird that took millions of years to evolve with blind faith that they may get the last laugh

Love must be experienced before there is any hope a creature believes in it

I think Bowie explains religion quite well in this new single,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kszLwBaC4Sw

Probably not his best, he is also looking a bit old now,

But here is a take on Religion is it really any different to any Religion?

Ben appreciate your post, but the Bible is hardly a good moral guide, for centuries it inspired the death and persecution of millions, it advocates slavery, stealing... it stifles freedom of thought..

If it never existed the world would be a safer more advanced place to live.

but is not, its a complete bloody mess....

^"No one can prove to me 100% God isn't real. No one can prove 100% that God is real."

Truth. I do not believe we are at a point that discussions like this will sway any of us. On the other hand, expressing our beliefs, (or lack of beliefs if you're agnostic) is an end to itself.

I find it remarkable there have been no knock-down drag-outs. OF course, sure as I say it . . . .

Abby comes the closest to my own stance. However, I must confess that I am an adherent in faith to psychology. In particular to Carl Jung. You need have no religious conceptions nor anti-religious conceptions. Jung simply presents a method of living that keeps one growing called Individuation. Fascinating stuff.

It stifles freedom of thought..

-- Nicko, on the contrary, the bible makes one think outside and inside the box. The bible is ... have you seen those puzzle boxes where you have to move certain pieces to open the box? well, in my opinion, the bible is like that. When one thinks one already is about to open that box, turns out that we are not even close...The bible makes one think.