Acceptable Losses

It is my understanding that it was voted by the American congress today to still allow know terrorists access to buy weapons

The sheer stupidity of this decision is beyond comprehension!!

I saw a funny thing on facebook earlier today. Paraphrased from memory cause I'm old.

"I have a solution to the gun issue in America. Get JJ Abrams to say "no starwars Ep7 until we have better gun control" and then watch as the geeks go crazy and fix the country by comic Con".

Silly, but I do sometimes wonder if it'll take a celebrity getting shot in one of these massacres before something is really done.

I'm not an expert on US politics, but can Obama not use his executive powers to enact gun control right now, if he really wanted too?

Jared Lee Loughner
Jarred Lee Loughner ran a red light on his way to

the "Tucson shooting, in which he shot and severely injured U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords, his target, and killed 6 people, including Chief U.S. District Court Judge John Roll, as well as a 9-year-old bystander Christina-Taylor Green.] Loughner shot and injured 13 other people, and one man was injured while subduing him.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Acquaintances said that Loughner's personality had changed markedly in the years prior to the shooting"

https://youtu.be/abPZbEMEX1E

It is my understanding that it was voted by the American congress today to still allow know terrorists access to buy weapons

The sheer stupidity of this decision is beyond comprehension!!

^exactly, governments profit and gain a stronger foothold when these attacks happen, sadly the American people have become too comfortable and no longer have the balls to "fight city hall" so to speak.....if you try to organize people against the government , you'll be the next one killed in a terrorist attack, or fake robbery, or whatever . We've allowed them to become too powerful without the checks and balances, and they know it.

^^^

Maybe you all need to seek asylum if life is so paranoid over there...just don't come here with your guns you hear!!!

^you'll never have to worry about that, I've been fighting all my life, this is nothing new, I only wish my posts were here from 6-7 years ago when I basically predicted all of this, course I thought it would have happened to our country a lot sooner and a lot worse than it has. We are our own worst enemy......like many nations before and after us will be....Yeah this is my land until they bury me in it, so no worries.

Hellon, I can honestly, legitimately say I have never been afraid someone has a weapon or that I would be shot. I have a concealed carry permit, but I very, very rarely carry. I don't feel it necessary, but I wanted the permit just in case (and that way I'm within the law around other CCP holders in their vehicles).

The idea of a registration terrifies me, only because people think that is going to solve a problem and it can't. I know this is a talking point, but criminals don't register their guns. Look at the cities/states with the strictest gun control (Chicago, IL and California as a whole). Schools have a zero weapon tolerance. All these places that mass shootings happen at are no-gun zones. Are people truly ignorant enough to believe that if we say you can't have guns, it'll all go away?

I have multiple guns. Some are for target shooting, some are for hunting (which we hunt for our food, not the sport), and some are for personal protection (pistols). I have to go through a background check every time I purchase a new gun. I wish we could add mental illness records onto a background check. Not if you've ever attended therapy or if you've taken a medication... but if you have ever been deemed a threat to yourself or to society, suicide lockdown etc, that should be on reports somewhere. The problem is 1. The stigma behind mental illness - we as a society are so incredibly ignorant to mental illness, it baffles me, and 2. This won't solve heart issues. We have a morality decay happening in this world, and specifically our country.

While there are a lot of shootings, there are also a LOT of murders that don't happen via guns. Also, I feel like until we have statistics showing per capita, we will always have a skewed version - you cannot go based on countries overall when my state of Oregon alone is the size of Ireland. We are a giant country, it's unfair to do crime statistics based off developed nations overall.

And then there's Switzerland... they seem to truly have their act together.

But let's not talk about the most current shooters being ISIS supporters.

The fact is, very few people actually need a gun. In Britain, you need a license and a particular reason to actually have one eg, being a farmer.
My father grew up on a farm and had shot guns most of his life ( I too used to shoot them as I grew up in the country) but he decided to give his license in as he no longer needed it.
Britt, there is a morality decay going on in the world right now. Now couple that with ease of access to guns. It surely is not an ideal scenario is it? Lunatics plus guns equals carnage. It seems a pretty simple equation.
"Are we ignorant enough to say if we can't have guns it will go away?"
^^^^^^^^

Britt, it certainly would not be that simple because of the amount in circulation, but to think that it WOULDN'T help is surely more ignorant?
I agree with Bob that it will never happen. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't. Very few people need a gun, in America or anywhere else. As I said in an above post, by giving these individuals such easy access cannot be helping the situation. No, it will not solve the problem, but it will be a huge step in the right direction.
You mention California being a no gun zone - but where are they coming from? A state surrounded by states where guns are legal may as well have no law in place at all. The guns are simply brought in because they are so easy to acquire elsewhere.

Telling criminals they can't commit a crime isn't going to stop them. Put a gun in my hand and make me put it up to someones head, even a murderer, and I wouldn't pull that trigger. Not only because it's unlawful, but morally I couldn't do that. Self defense, a kill or be killed situation, that changes things. I think there should be stricter access to guns, but I guess I only know the laws in Oregon (each state is different) and I know it's not an easy, simple process. As a CCP holder, it's easier, but I've gone through courses and classes and evaluations for that.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say California is a no-gun zone. It just has the strictest gun control. That's what I'm saying, a place like Chicago where you limit access for CCP holders to legally carry guns, you have more crime. The FBI has incredible statistics out about many shootings were deterred because of legal carries.

Http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/?utm_source=GSL

I know this is obviously not as many as the shootings we have, but this also isn't an extensive list. Just saw this pop up on FB from an anti-gun friend, thought it was interesting.

#8 is my local (30 min drive) mall.

Interesting points you both make, I often wonder if they had these same arguments about swords and Catapults in the roman days and before. Civilizations were built, and unfortunately destroyed from weapons, you'd think we'd learn, but then again, you'd think we'd learn about voting the same idiots into office year in and year out, but we haven't in either case. What a glorious world it would be with no weapons, without having to worry about protecting yourself or your family from two legged predators....As a father, I'd love to see my boys not be burdened by such, and yet as a realist, I know better. Greed, fanaticism , envy, self righteousness, and just downright ruthlessness will never allow us to live in such a society....But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make this a better world for all and I stress the word all, mankind......One of the most ignorant phrases I've ever heard in my life is "God bless america"...think about that for a minute and maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from.

There are NO Acceptable Losses
I have no interest in taking away "every gun" or even most guns.
I want to renew the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act which expired in 2004. For ten years (1994 to 2004) semi-automatic assault weapons and high-caliber magazines were banned from manufacture for civilian use.
That is a start to sanity.

*********************************

James Holmes killed twelve people and injured fifty-eight others in an Aurora, Colorado movie theater. He carried a Smith & Wesson M&P15 and a Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun, and two handguns.

At Sandy Hook Elementary Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster version AR-15 rifle in the shootings.

Five assault weapons available at WalMart
http://www.thenation.com/article/five-assault-rifles-you-can-pick-walmart-photos/

******************************

"Efforts to pass a new federal assault weapons ban were made in December 2012 after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Connecticut.[38][39][40] On January 24, 2013, Senator Feinstein introduced S. 150, the Assault Weapons Ban of 2013 (AWB 2013).[41] The bill was similar to the 1994 ban, but differed in that it would not expire after 10 years,[40] and it used a one-feature test for a firearm to qualify as an assault weapon rather than the two-feature test of the defunct ban.[42] The GOP Congressional delegation from the State of Texas condemned Feinstein's bill, along with the NRA.[43] On March 14, 2013, the Senate Judiciary Committee approved a version of the bill along party lines.[44] On April 17, 2013, AWB 2013 failed on a Senate vote of 40 to 60.[45]"

^ 40: a b Steinhauer, Jennifer (January 24, 2013). "Senator Unveils Bill to Limit Semiautomatic Arms". The New York Times. Retrieved May 26, 2014.
41 ^ Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Rev. Gary Hall, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy et al. (January 24, 2013). Assault Weapons Ban Bill (video). Washington, D.C.: National Cable Satellite Corporation. Retrieved April 13, 2014.
42 ^ Kucinich, Jackie (January 24, 2013). "Democrats reintroduce assault weapons ban". USA Today. Retrieved April 13, 2014.
43 ^ Freedman, Dan (January 24, 2013). "Feinstein offers new assault weapons ban". Houston Chronicle. Retrieved January 24, 2013.
44 ^ Steinhauer, Jennifer (March 14, 2013). "Party-Line Vote in Senate Panel for Ban on Assault Weapons". The New York Times. Retrieved March 14, 2013.
45 ^ Simon, Richard (April 17, 2013). "Senate votes down Feinstein's assault weapons ban". Los Angeles Times.
Categories: 1994 in lawGun politics in the United StatesLegal history of the United StatesUnited States federal firearms legislation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban#Efforts_to_renew_the_ban

*************************************

The AWB defined all semi automatic guns as "assault weapons"-which refers to a firearm that can automatically discard spent cartridges and subsequently reload the next round without human intervention. For semi-automatic guns to be labeled as assault weapons, the gun in question must contain at least 2 of the following 5 features for its specific classification-
Semi automatic rifles with two or more of the following
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grips
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor
Grenade launcher attachment
Semi automatic pistols with 2 or more of the following
Magazine that attach outside the pistol grip
Unloaded weight of 50 oz
Flash suppressor, barrel extender, hand grip, or suppressor attachments present
Barrel shroud can be used as a hand held
A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic gun
Semi automatic shotguns with 2 or more of the following
Pistol grip
Folding or telescope stock
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazine
http://gun.laws.com/semi-automatic-laws

Is it insane that I think the government sets up some of this stuff?

I'm becoming a conspiracy theorist, and I hate it lol.

I'd love to hear some of those theories Britt...I have also become a conspiracy addict so...hit me with your best theory guys...

Catching up and haven't read through every post, but popping in with my 2 cents.

Coming from a country with gun controls, it is difficult for me to understand how staunchly people still reject the need for more gun control in America.

True that people's decisions are the main reason for these mass killings, but the easy availability of guns is undeniably a huge enabling factor. The fact that people can own multiple semi-automatic weapons, pistols, etc. is absurd to me. Most of these guns are specifically designed to be able to shoot many times in the space of a few seconds, they aren't designed for hunting.

People who argue for the right to bear arms and have multiple weapons etc. are often reasonable, intelligent people, which shows how deeply the gun culture is ingrained and how difficult it is for me to understand. But surely the same lax laws that allow decent citizens carry these firearms are the same laws that allow potentially unstable people to obtain them.

Not the best metaphor here maybe, but I think it makes a point (hopefully). Imagine if there were no speed limits on roads. I know most people, myself included, would be sensible and still drive safely, but some people wouldn't and they are the ones who would crash into you. There are still going to be car accidents with speed limits in place, but by regulating speed, there are a lot less of them.

Saying all this, I accept that enacting more gun control laws will be a nightmare for whoever tries to do it. There are just so many guns around that it is nearly impossible to contain at this stage, the horse has bolted somewhat, it needed to be done 50-100 years ago. It's just sad that despite all the deaths, and in this day and age, there is still a debate about this topic. I remember basically writing this same post on here 2, 4, 5 years ago and will probably be doing the same for the foreseeable future.

Can I ask...those of you Americans who seem to see your guns as just another day item that you put in your purse...how do you feel when travelling to a country that prohibits them?

I have to say, I've been doing a lot of research on this and watching lots of interesting debates. I didn't know that in the parts of America where people have a right to concealed carry, crime is much much lower than in parts of the US where guns are more strictly controlled. Now I don't think this is an ideal solution to fighting crime, but as stastical facts go it is odd.

Also, the US has a government that scares the crap out of a lot of people. With mass surveilance and drone technology I could sort of bend my mind around the idea that I'd want to have weapons in order to defend my liberty. I'm not pro gun...but I don't trust politicians to safeguard my rights at all, none of them.

I mean just look at how insane police brutality has gotten recently. You could argue a lot of that is because the police forces of the US are scared everyone is hiding a gun...but some of those video's are so barbaric and the members of the public are pretty much defenceless against what is in many cases a police state.

I have to admit, I'm not so 100% sure of where I stand anymore on this.

The world is going/has gone crazy and I don't think there is a simple or right answer to any of its ills anymore. Pessimistic, maybe, but I believe it to be true.

Merry Christmas. :(

What I've been saying all along, the stricter the laws against guns, the more gun violence.....Yet those areas that allow guns to be carried openly and concealed seem to have less.....and the police brutality cases are another thing that happens mostly in your areas of stricter gun laws, they have the upper hand and feel justified in whatever they do, because they are supposedly the only one with the control (guns).....20 or so years ago police were taught to maim, to subdue, now all are taught to shoot center mass, you see how we devalue human life.....I mean seriously a man with a knife is 40 yards away, you shoot him in the leg, or even both legs, problem solved, but no, we have to kill him......our government has gotten so corrupt, and so far out of reach and protected, that citizens giving up their guns would be like reporting for duty to be robbed daily or become enslaved to the regime, seems like we're already getting screwed every which way......it doesn't surprise me that Isis or any other anti-american group has a long list of people from america wanting to join up, people are fed up to the gills, another reason why the clown Trump is a front runner, people are so distraught they'll grasp hold of anything, sort of like religion, he's becoming a cult for those who can't think for themselves. But yeah the only assurance that people have against government is their guns, the only insurance they have against home invasion, is their guns....It's the last sense of security, and they can pass all the laws they want, they are not going go give them up without bloodshed.

I think it was Britt that said it, but yes I think anyone having mental issues, or seeking treatment for such, their records should be part of the application process for acquiring weapons......because many of these shootings were by people undergoing treatment or needing mental health treatment, not all, but the majority of them.

My opinion on this is not a popular one. I was raised in a gun-free household because my mother was a survivor of gun violence. I've had a gun pointed at me before, too.
I hate them.

You can argue all you like that guns are necessary for our protection, that they're fun, or that we just need more regulation. I disagree with all of it. Guns need to be gone, period.

Agreed^ guns need to be gone

Hellon, I have traveled to Canada twice and Guatemala twice. Guatemala you see police with ARs walking down the street. Who knows what the criminals had. I, nor anyone with me, did not carry a weapon..or even take one on the trip. I would have preferred my husband carry one, honestly, but we respect the laws of the country. I did feel uneasy a tad in Guatemala..but I was more afraid of the water...lol.

Narphy, I'm so sorry for your experiences. No one should ever have to go through that.

Kevin, it makes perfect sense to me. If you are a criminal and you want to make a statement of yourself and go shoot up a group of random strangers, are you more apt to choose a place where people are not allowed to concealed carry, or would you choose a place you know others have a gun? I'd choose the anti gun area. It always seems that most mass shootings, the killers think they'll survive. They end up shooting themselves when police or a carrier closes in. Our government scares the shit out of me, I will be honest. And when you think about the intent behind the 2nd ammendment, to protect yourself from your government, as sad as that is, it makes perfect sense. Humans are corrupt people.

Two things:

first, corporations actually do have conscience:

http://www.thenation.com/article/walmart-just-instituted-its-own-assault-weapons-ban/

Second: Murder by firearms in developed countries:
Australia 1.4
New Zealand 1.6
Germany 1.9
Austria 2.2
Denmark 2.7
Netherlands 3.3
Sweden 4.1
Finland 4.5
Ireland 4.8
Canada 5.1
Luxembourg 6.2
Belgium 6.8
Switzerland 7.7
United States 29.7 [more than 4 times Switzerland, 21 times Australia]

"With less than 5% of the world's population, the United States is home to roughly 35-50 per cent of the world's civilian-owned guns, heavily skewing the global geography of firearms and any relative comparison"

Both stats from:
Gun Homicides & Gun Ownsership listed by County by Simon Rogers, retrieved 5 Dec 2015 at <http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data>

Thanks for replying Britt. I just wondered if checking to make sure you had your gun before leaving the house was similar to putting on a watch...you know, just an everyday routine duty that you did subconsciously.

Did you feel afraid on your Canadian trip?

No, I don't carry daily :)

I was a teenager when I went and more focused on boys than terrorists ;)

Yeah....I remember you said you didn't carry all the time but, I wonder about the others...do you guys just pack your gun as you do your wallet when you leave home? Also, when you say you have multiple guns are they all under lock and key or just lying around? General question to everyone.

I'm pretty sure most Americans who own guns lock them up. Those licensed to carry a concealed weapon, like the woman whom I work for, don't usually casually carry them around. Maybe she carries after an inmate is released whom she was trying to keep behind bars and she testified against them in court... I should ask.

Britt
I understand what you are saying but it is almost defeatest
To simply suggest guns should be carried to protect yourself. The fact that mass shootings may occur in areas of stricter gun control is not in itself an excuse to carry them. The problem is being overlooked: guns. The problem is, you guys have had them in circulation for si long now that making them illegal might be largely irrelevent - there are just too many.
But as long as they ate so easy to come by the problem will persist, in stricter areas or not. To think that by making guns illegal wouldn't help eventually cannot be a logical assumption.

I'm not being clear. What I mean is simply this: carrying guns to deter those who would do evil with tthem is not an answer - it is a weak band aid. Protecting yourself with the problem (,guns) cannot be the solution. The problem is guns. People should simply not be allowed to walk into a shop and purchase such things. It is clearly - as has been evidenced - a recipe for disaster
No it wouldn't solve the problem but why make it so much easier for a lunatic to destroy a family at will? lets just hand all the heroin addicts a needle and give up

Has anyone diusgussed the accidental shooting deaths in regards to guns? I haven't had enough coffee to post the statistics.... But just last week a 20 yr old went out hunting, went to his girlfriends house and proceeded to clean his gun in front of their 7 month old son....the gun was triggered somehow , gun went off and killed the baby...they are ruling it accidental death. This happened just about 20 miles from me...accidental... Ugh.

Years ago when I was 10...my neighbors teen boys were playing in the attic, found their fathers gun...and started to mess around with it.... The brother shot the other, accidentally... Killed him.

I can't go walking in the woods without wearing orange without fear of being shot.

Look, we can debate this until we are all blue in the face..but stricter laws need to be placed...just my thoughts on this...

Talks of mental evaluation before purchasing guns....what happens when a farmer purchases a gun....then 20 yrs later he gets Parkinson's disease, one of the side effects is severe depression.. He shoots himself....20 yrs prior he was mentally stable... But not on the day of my grandfather's death.

Nah I'm sorry folks, stricter laws are needed.

Andrea, I have to agree. Lots of guns + lots of people = lots of death.
Guns have become a curse. They are the perfect example of all that's wrong with humanity: we are clever enough to develop the technology but cannot control the results.
Bob pointed out, I think, in an above post that it is human nature - we will never change. I agree.We are, at our very cores, still the animals we try so hard to distinguish ourselves from.
I don't know about you, but a troop of chimps with assault rifles would terrify me. What a stupid comparison, you might think......now switch on the news.

I believe you should have to go through extensive training before you purchase a gun. There should NEVER EVER EVER be any accidental deaths when cleaning a gun. Gun 101 is you unload your weapon and triple check it before leaving the range, loading it into your vehicle, again when bringing it home, and AGAIN before you begin to clean your gun. This is common sense. The only loaded gun I have is my pistol on my nightstand, that is immediately checked and unloaded every time a child comes over.

The problem isnt guns. It's morality. Right and wrong. Mental health. The way we raise our children. Stupidity. Hearts. The list goes on. Cain killed Abel with a freaking rock. We don't need guns to kill people.

Yesterday a man at a London tube station was kicked and punched unconscious before being repeatedly stabbed, while the attacker was saying "This is for Syria" and "Blood will be spilled!"
The victim is seriously hurt but in a stable condition and 1 other was injured with minor stab wounds before the police tasered and arrested the attacker.
Has our government made the wrong decision in getting involved?
On the one hand I think we should try and help the people of Syria and fight against ISIS but on the other I think we are asking for trouble!

Britt, no one said the problem was the guns themselves, but that doesn't change a thing. They are there. We have them (we being the problem as you say) and they do make killing an awful lot easier. No, they are not needed to kill...but they make the act extremely efficient, don't they?
As you say, we are the problem. But guns themselves are a symptom of that problem - we don't seem able to control our need for violence; the very fact they were devised in the first place is proof of that.

As I keep saying, I agree, guns are not needed to kill and by eradicating them won't cure peoples' ills, but it would make it that much harder for them to be acted upon, surely. Not least, it would show a willingness to WANT to move forward and do something
All the best

Deaths that occur from cleaning a gun are not accidental, no matter how tragic the situation, they should never be declared accidental, they are negligent ........any gun owner knows that you never ever clean a loaded gun and the first thing you do is unload it, including checking the chamber for those guns with clips, so I don't buy accidental in those cases.....I like the finger print concept of using a gun once it's purchased that way if someone steals your gun it will not operate without the persons fingers, that's also a good way to keep track of who fired what.......I'll admit I carried a gun in my younger days because of what I was into and who I hung around, but if I have a gun now, someone's getting shot, my grandfather said, never pull out a gun unless you intend to use it and I've lived by that principle all my life...I've lived in some rough neighborhoods, where many people couldn't even be caught in and I never carried a gun, although I did have access to one whenever needed, I've had a shotgun pointed in my face, have been shot at and have shot back, but that was long ago, and a situation of being young and dumb, wreckless and careless ........

"We must finally draw the conclusion, however opprobrious it may be, that mass killings are entirely tolerable to the American public.
This conclusion is the only possible explanation as to why there is little, if any, serious attempt to initiate gun control despite increasingly frequent mass shootings.
Congratulations, NRA members. You have won the right for every adult person in the USA to obtain weapons of mass destruction."

^^^^ Sadly, guns dont kill people, people kill people with guns!!!!!

You can take away the guns anytime but if someone wants to kill you, mess murder your family, they can always find away to do it!!! You see, it is in their mentality.... And if their is a will than there is a way...

From the NY times:

"The vast majority of guns used in 15 recent mass shootings, including at least two of the guns used in the San Bernardino attack, were bought legally and with a federal background check. At least eight gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems that did not prevent them from obtaining their weapons."

I'm sick of hearing the same 'bad people will do bad things' rhetoric. So give them guns? Is that the point? They'll do bad things anyway, why try to prevent it?
Posts like this are entirely useless and disheartening for those of us who want to see the frequency of mass shootings reduced.
Thanks to those of you who recognize we can and should try to make a change in this new, tragic phenomenon.
Guns are given away like candy. It's too easy. The road to less gun saturation in our society will be a long one, but it needs to start. Anyone who says 'why bother' is confirming Larry's assertion of acceptable losses.

...

Maybe legally owned guns should by law be locked up while not in use or on your person, and gun owners should be held legally responsible for the security of their firearms. If your 18 year old nephew can get his hands on your weapons that are designed to kill, you should be held accountable. Seems a lot of killers have easy access to guns that don't belong to them. Guns belonging to parents, family, or friends. Be a responsible gun owner.
I have a crossbow that's hidden and stored in a different location than its arrows. Guests don't know where I keep it. That's how I am a responsible owner of a weapon that can kill.

I agree, those negligent should be held responsible, but depending on who you are , how much money you have and your status, is the difference between an accident, being held accountable and negligence...sadly