NC Law ((HB2))

So i was curious if anyone had any opinions on House Bill 2,

the bill effectively takes away LGBT rights in the state of NC, it also overturned the what the city of charlotte was trying to do to allow transgender individuals into the restroom of their gender so that it would no longer take effect.. (this makes it fairly obvious where i stand on the issue)

But thats not all it does...

It also makes it so that businesses are allowed to discriminate against the LGBT community, anyone with disabilities that feel like they were being discriminated against have to go to the federal level, and it also makes it so that no city is allowed to make any law to protect LGBT groups (or others really). Ohh and also Min Wage is now allowed to be increased at the city level.

To me personally this is insane, There have already been times where non trans women have been harassed out of restrooms and asked for an ID or asked to leave the premise because they look to masculine. I can understand if you are worried about men in the restroom but i can guarantee we are not really a threat (as represented by a states that have already made protects for them, they have said they have had no increase of perverts in restrooms) also ugh.. I cant even.

I can go on and on but i wont,

Ohh, also it is affecting the states economy, i guess i should add that in their as well...

Ill leave this here and let people form their own opinions.

^ Hi, thanks for opening this up for discussion!

It's actually neat you brought this to the forum. I wrote some notes the other day just brainstorming on societal expectations vs the biological side of things and PC and terms used and the sincere feelings of people who may feel more feminine one day and more masculine the other....Recently I read a book about a character who was gender fluid and her journey through it. I had no idea that people struggled with their identity this way. I think the author gave awesome insight and I truly cared about this character. I totally believe that the discrimination she faced happens in real life and it completely saddens me how we can "dehumanize" someone based on identity, (as you can say the same of religion, orientation, status, etc). I had heard of body dysphoria from one person but that's about it. So in the past few weeks I've been looking at more stories on-line, wanting to know and learn more (as in not just to gain knowledge but to be more open-minded). I read A LOT of posts. Especially about transgendered people. Many people commenting claimed that transgendered suffered from mental disorders or were disillusioned. I was kind of shocked that while there are obviously people dealing with this currently, the ones who weren't were very quick and easy to almost treat this person as "not a human" and that the simplest solution would be to throw them in an institution.

I don't know much detail of these laws you're mentioning yet. I'm just learning about how much violence there has been against transgendered people, and that breaks my heart. I can't judge, I can't say what this person was going through, if they had felt from the beginning they were not comfortable with their sex.

Then there's a HUGE debate about sex vs. gender. I'm just putting this out there from what I've come upon. People say A). they are the same or B). sex is what you were born as and gender is what you identify as (who you are). That brings up the concepts of gender as a social construct and if you can identify as a certain type of gender. There's lot to consider.

But the main thing to me right now, and call me simple-minded or naive, is that humans are humans. Always. EVERYONE has dignity.

I'm not going to go into contrived situations where this might happen or this might happen, as I can't think of any and don't feel knowledgeable enough to respond... as some posts on-live have referenced the "confusion" if children see a male that's really a female, etc.

Personally, contrary to the ideas of some people I know (a few of my conservative family/friends included), I don't really think any of this is a "liberal" agenda. People matter, their feelings matter. To just say "oh it's the liberal nonsense" is demeaning to anyone. I kind of grew up with the belief that the media and our culture was completely pushing their liberal agenda, (very conservative family), that that's all the LGBT community has ever done. So my first mindset was initially the whole "Me vs. Them" mentality. Which I want to get away from. I don't see the LGBT community as violent or rather would like to assume the best in people (again don't have any friends that are transgendered or gender fluid, etc).

This is getting quite long. Basically, I think with all these laws there will just be more opportunity for riots/ protests/ non-peaceful encounters, whatever you want to call it. There needs to be basic laws, but I've heard one story (don't know how valid it is) of a law coming that would require ID to enter a restroom? I think that's crossing the line, especially of privacy if they are pushed to "check" your genitals. I also don't think seeing from first sight if a person is "too" masculine for a female restroom is going to do any good. I mean, we can't define someone else's identity FOR them. And we certainly can't assume just from looking.

I've seen pictures of restrooms that just say "open to any genders". It brings me back (pardon if I'm too simple-minded) to the basic idea of why we use the restroom. To relieve ourselves. A toilet is a toilet. If there is a stall or wall of privacy, I doubt anyone would be wanting to cause any trouble. We all just need to use the restroom when that time comes.

Just my 2 cents.

A lot of restrooms in Asia are unisex. There are no urinals...only cubicles. This takes away the gender issue and there has been no discrimination that I'm aware of.

EDIT

I'm curious to know why the minimum wage has been affected by this bill...they don't seem related to me...what's the deal guys?

Lol i think it sucks for north Carolina because their economy will go down the hole (if it wasn't there already). A lot of allies and obviously lgbt people are going to avoid it like the plague. I am not too surprised it passed though, i have heard Carolina is a very religious state. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but... its mind boggling to me how people put one group first instead of the whole community.

But

I also don't really support nor hate the lgbt either. But to be fair each "community" will have hateful people and good people thats life

^^^

This is why I can't get a grip on American politics...WTF has going to a rest room got to do with economy??

I don't think Americans know what American politics are like lol

In all seriousness, we have trump running for president. This is how dumbed down americans have become, i think the media has a ton to do with it.

But back to the topic-

I have no idea to be honest. I just think there are too many labels and people judge because of that. Kill the religious and lgbt labels and the world would be a much happier place. But i am just a dreamer.

Hellon, because this bill passed, many large businesses are saying they will move to a differect state, or others won't open up shop there at all/do business in North Carolina.. thus creating job loss etc in said state. Businesses are heavily influential in our political system.

I don't know much of the in's and out's of these laws. Unisex toilets would probably be an ideal situation, all cubicles. I can see both sides of this argument. I think a potentially much bigger issue would be the issue of changing rooms in the places like swimming pools, school gyms, etc. I'm curious to know what the situation is currently there in terms of laws and actual practices at the moment.

On a similar note, Bruce Springsteen is one of my favourite artists and I have big respect for him, but cancelling the show when 1000s of fans have likely already booked tickets, transport, hotels, booked days of work etc. is fairly unfair on them.

HEllon, the issue isnt really the bathrooms affecting the economy. Plenty of other states of banned this..

What it has done is taken away all rights to anyone LGBT

And also taken away a lot of rights for people not in the LGBT group

They threw min wage in there to take away the ability for cities to control their own economy (they want it done at a state level).

Businesses do not like the idea that it has taken away the rights of people, they view this as against their own policy. ALso certain fields (like the tech field) a lot of LGBT groups work there (hence why big companies like red hat are threatening to leave the state)

Google said they are pulling out and everyone is giving them crap because they have been putting fiber lines down in our area and no one things they will stop..>

What they dont realize is they did something similar in another state where they built a huge building that was worth (i think 10-20 mil... I cant remember the actual price) but the moment it was built they walked away from it because of what said state did.

Literally just let the building rot and now its just chilling there..

Which is kinda crazy.

But like i said, the bathroom thing is really just what has sparked the discussion. In actuality it affects so much more

Also hellon is is VERY normal for our laws and the bills we make in the usa to contain multiple things at once

The reason this is done is because... Say like we wanted to pass a bill that banned gay marriage (which is federal law now so this cant happen) but we are in a very liberal state. They would tack on other things that the liberals wanted to help influence them to vote yes.

Stuff like this is added all the time to influence votes.

i find it dumb.. But yeah...

Also --- im not super into the politics and stuff so im sure someone will correct me on something.
Thats cool.

But yeah its become a huge thing here. One of my friends was stalked by a police because she didnt have her ID on her when she was trying to use the restroom. She was born a female.. The cop told her she had to leave the premise so she did. The cop then followed her for about 15 min waiting to see if she would go over the speed limit on a highway. It was fairly bad..

But theres a lot of the law is really dumb

Edit: also something i have viewed as wild is that some states have banned transportation to our state now (pretty much only bans anything if its paid for by their government...) And thats pretty crazy imo.

I have a layover in NC next month, they better not mess with that. I have a goal to be in every state, and that layover will help me mark off NC.. lol.

Re the federal law so states can't ban...yes they can technically. Federal law states Marijuana use is illegal recreationally, and my state it is now legal, as are other states. Which absolutely makes no sense to me, why we have federal and state laws differing from one another.

^ its actually state law and local. So its on an even smaller scale.

We have like 3-4 cities that protect a lot of te stuff that the state law says we cannot.

Also where in nc are you going :D Come visit me :D! xD

Edit: Now that i think about it some of the law is also different from the federal. Theres just a lot to the law.

My post will probably shock a lot of people and maybe even piss some of them off, and I've actually given it a lot of thought over this past year. and it's weird because I've always fought against many forms of discrimination. First let me say that I don't even feel there should be any laws whatsoever regarding gay relationships, who is to tell someone who they can and can't love, course I don't believe in civil rights or affirmative action either, because if all men were truly created equal than we shouldn't need laws to make it so, but in retrospect if we didn't have those assurances, people would still get away with treating others with inequality......but anyways, I believe North Carolina should have the right to pass their own laws, I believe all states should and I'll explain why in a minute...It should be up to the citizens to vote for amendments to repeal and or challenge any laws that they don't agree with, they can easily do that in the court system or ask for an addendum on election day.......Utah which is a very religious state , should not be forced to accept federal laws that go against their religious beliefs, such as abortion, gay marriages, etc.....because after all the laws and the law makers should represent the people to whom they are accountable to, not those in another state......This is one of the reasons I think we should get rid of the federal government and let the states be responsible for themselves, and the only part the government should do is be an overseer.....In some states weed is legal, but not the majority, how does that work, yet the government forced all states to honor gay marriages. My motorcycle is registered and licensed in Pa, we have a no helmet law, and I can ride all day in pa without a helmet, but if I go to maryland or virginia I get a huge ticket for not having a helmet.......in colorado you can smoke weed, in pa, you can go to jail, wtf......so if you're going to pass laws like that , by leaving some laws up to the states but making others mandatory, then you're creating a bias and it's not fair to all the people, if we are indeed a nation, than all laws should be national, if we are separate states, then by all means, let the states make their own laws and butt the hell out.......in the interim , let the people decide.

remember this as well, laws were initially made to keep order and protect a civilization, now most are made to control, and sadly oppress

Bob I totally agree.

I just have an hour layover in NC, then off to Ohio!

Bob, where I disagree is I feel this is a human rights issue. This country has always had states unwilling to make necessary changes for all human beings to be treated with basic respect... states filled with people who refuse to recognize when they are wrong, and without the federal government stepping in on human rights issues, we'd probably still have slavery in a couple states and women unable to vote. In the very least, we'd see states with Jim Crow laws set in place. Just look at how many Trump supporters there are who adore his racism and sexism. These people exist and they are in masses. When the trans community is such a minority, their vote doesn't go a long way. People neutral on the subject or still learning about the trans community may not know how to vote. It's the hateful anti-trans people making damn sure they make it out to vote on these issues.
Also, I don't think this issue of stomping on the dignity of others, no matter how small the group, is at all comparable to the legalization of marijuana. I agree that decisions regarding illicit drug use should, at least at this time, remain state-based. I'm with you there. Can't say I agree on topics of LGBT rights.

Anyone here who identifies as transexual, know that you're not alone. You're not the only ones fighting for your rights. I'm a heterosexual, biological female, but I will always vote for your rights, seek to defend your rights, and if it comes to it, fight for your rights. From one human to another, you have my respect and my support.

Https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiSq-2P64bMAhVKET4KHbuxDN4QFggsMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.un.org%2Fen%2Funiversal-declaration-human-rights%2F&usg=AFQjCNFla8ag1sj9ECzP1ZbSFR7pO8TBWQ

I think if every state adopted this and lived by it, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

"Also, I don't think this issue of stomping on the dignity of others, no matter how small the group, is at all comparable to the legalization of marijuana. I agree that decisions regarding illicit drug use should, at least at this time, remain state-based. I'm with you there. Can't say I agree on topics of LGBT rights."

I understand what you mean, Jane, however I only brought this up as an example of our federal and state laws being different but the same and confusing and overriding others etc because those outside of America questioning may not realize we have these types of laws. It wasn't comparing the issue, but comparing the way laws are done, state vs federal.

It is very confusing, I agree with you. I didn't read your comment above, sorry about that, I just read Bob's and responded to it.

Reading your post now:

"Which absolutely makes no sense to me, why we have federal and state laws differing from one another."

Yep, agree. I guess where I would like federal and state laws to link up is on the topic of human rights, but not on topics like marijuana, helmets, etc. Things like that should be up to each state, if that. Maybe up to each city.

See I have a huge problem telling people what they must accept, it's like certain communities have certain regulations, some communities in Napa valley have an agreement between home owners that there is to be no smoking within the development, now suppose a development is founded on religious difference, and they adopt a policy that marriage is between a man and a woman, and there should be no gay couples within that community because it goes against the community beliefs......you see the problem here......the laws shouldn't be forced down people's throats, now common sense law is one thing, like human sacrifice, etc, but lifestyle is another thing.......you can go on and on, porn, gun carrying, ....let the states make their own laws according to their citizens, and not a group of legislatures who represent a party or a special interest group rather than the majority of the people

The issue with me is how its being portrayed. They make it seem like transgender individuals are the ones that are sexual predators, if you look up states that have legalized it they have had 0 (i think there might have been one or two claims but they were against the law and were making an expample) transgender iattacks where when you look at the attacks on transgender groups when using the other bathroom its fairly high.

of the group i know over 50% of the people that had to use the other restroom had been attacked.

Also they make it sound like they will run around showing their stuff to others... I mean idk about anyone else but i go to the stall.. Do my thing.. wash my hands and leave.

Also.

http://www.vox.com/2016/3/25/11305188/north-carolina-transgender-bathroom-law

Transgender men really dont belong in the womens restroom.

The last thing is how they say if we allow transgender to use the restoom of their preference then we are allowing people to sexually abuse people? like no.. It will always be illegal to do ANYTHING to anyone else no matter what space it is sexually.. Period

Other then that it really saddens me about the rest of the law. I can understand this issue being brought up for transgender because its just really being brought to light. People are just realizing there is a lot more then just a few of us.. But for disabilities ? taking away their rights is stupid.. They also mention its okay to pay LGBT groups less.. Its really kinda bad how crazy this law is.

Theres so much to it and schools are being forced to follow this.

And... I got a chuckle when i read today that big porn sites have banned NC IPs.

Either way... its gotten fairly scary here in the state for me and a few of my friends.
Harassment is real

http://paigejulianne.com/2016/04/and-the-hb2-profiling-starts/

*disappears*

^ Wow. Things are happening so fast I feel like. Then again, I've been in the dark for awhile about this. And you're right, the portrayal is just insane. How can we portray someone as a sexual predator who we don't even know? How easy it is for us all to judge so quickly.

I read a few articles (some from quite Conservative standpoints) who literally accused (the community I'm guessing?) transgender people of being these big scary monsters who would sexually abuse children or you know, in some way incite sexual crimes in the future. Who started the idea that transgender people are violent? I don't know if that's ever happened, but like you said, I doubt they'll be running around showing themselves to people inappropriately. And in my mind, why would they even want to be the one to influence attacks? In my view, it seems they just want to use the restroom like anyone else and feel SAFE doing so. To not be afraid.

The comments on one article especially - I think it was an article about the future of our children if exposed to transgender people. I mean, I'm not a parent so I don't know if children inquire about things if they see someone (or even recognize?) a transgender person. Basically the article suggested that this would give children the idea they could be whatever they wanted to be, and they would be a confused, sexually frustrated, generation. I think it was parents in a video linked who raised their children not in a specific gender, but let them pick? And the other parents were commenting on that choice.

^i have been asked are you a boy or girl..

Im a girl!! Thats all i say. All that happens.

And they will be like Ohh she is so beautiful! and go on and on. I love kids. They always steal my heart i love them :3

I think there's enough hate and discrimination in the world without the problem being needlessly added to.
I have three children. All I wish for them is that they grow up to be decent, respectful human beings who are decent and respectful to other people.
Not all transgender people are good. Not all gay people are good. Not all heterosexuals are good. Not all black people are good. Not all white people are good. So let's concentrate on those that are.....whoever and whatever they may be and not isolate them for what is irrelevant.

My sentiments exactly.

Have you ever thought of this

transgender, born a boy, wants to be a girl, gets in trouble, should they put him in woman's prison or mens

transgender, born a woman, wants to be a man...should they put her in a mens prison or a woman's prison......now do you see the problem with that.......

personally I could care less what sexual preference someone identifies with, I love my sons and if they were gay, I'd love them the same as I do now, but by the same token I don't think they should receive special treatment, and if my son identifies with being a girl, hell no I don't think he should be able to use the girls restrooms.

This is addressed in Orange Is The New Black. A trans woman is sent to a women's prison. I agree with it. Especially if the person in question has already undergone reconstructive surgery, but even if not.

Its more of an issue of safety. The violence level is much higher on anyone transgender in a lot of these situations Trans women in men restrooms the report of assault either sexually / physically is very very high. I mean, ive had some pretty scary situations and have a stab wound.

If you blend well then yes.

I get looks if i use the mens room... It draws a lot of attention

A lot of unwanted attention.

The only way people will know is if they are looking in my stall

and the few times i used the womens restroom i was pushed out and was told im sorry this is the mens room...

Thats generally what happens

"Maam your in the wrong restroom"

As far as prision goes the amount of sexual assualt / abuse skyrockets for trans groups

As far as prisions are concerned im unsure. Obvious id say yes to it but im apart of the group and i cant really put myself out of it. I just have utter fear of me going into a mens prision

I mean... The picture i have here is bad, but most people are jaw dropped when they find out im transgender so its kinda like uhm what?

Hormones pretty much changed my muscle mass and body to the point where my strength levels are that of any other female so i cant really imagine needing to defend myself because the way most of society around here sees me is i am male pretending to be female... ----> means they hit me a heck of a lot more which kinda sucks.

Either way i still use the womens restroom in the state... No one even glances up or questions it so... Yeah.

Another strange thing was i was told by a police officer to just use the womens restroom in a certain facility because it would cause a lot less drama... kinda weird. But yeah.

That all sounds so sadly complicated. You face these little challenges that most of us don't have to think twice about.
Why can't a person get to just be a person? Why is it that the further someone strays from the "mold," the harder life becomes for them? ...The more rules, restrictions, and violence they are faced with.

I understand "different" can be scary, but aren't we an intelligent enough species to embrace different? If we could accept our differences more readily, we'd soon see that most of us are more different than we let on. Trying to fit a mold leads to depression and anxiety. People shouldn't be categorized so that we fit neatly into boxes. Everyone would be happier if we let variety blossom rather than try to stomp it out. We need to take care of each other. We need to love more easily and unlearn hate.

-your neighborhood hippie, Jane (poke fun at me all you want!)

Jane, I agree completely, but unfortunately many in prison may not share that point of view...
I do believe we should all be treated equally but as Bob alludes to, it isn't always that simple. Too often I think we look for a perfect scenario but too often there simply isn't one.

A man wants to be a woman and uses the women's restroom - debatable, but not dangerous normally.

A man wants to be a woman and gets sent to a male prison - it doesn't matter how utopic we wish life could be, it isn't and this is a dangerous scenario.
So do you send them to a female prison? They'd be a huge amount of controversy there.
There isn't always a right scenario - just varying degrees of bad ones, often instigated because of society's prejudices.

All the best

Read some of the horror stories of opposite sexes being placed in prison, some were murdered, some were repeatedly raped, etc. Have you ever heard of a hermaphrodite human.....I'll never forget they sent one to the prison where I was at, it caused such an uproar between the inmates that he/she had to be placed on Rule 31, which is 24 hour lock down protective custody.......personally if you have a penis, you should use the men's bathroom, if you have a vagina, the women's bathroom......because we live in a perverted society, what's to stop a heterosexual male from saying he's transgender and using the woman's bathroom and vice-versa.......in prison you got guys doing life that could give two shits about what you were born as, you put a vagina in there, well let's just say it's not going to go well.......now you can say mentality, emotions or whatever dictate your sexuality, it very well may dictate your preference, but the equipment dictates male or female, period....if they get it changed, then that's a different scenario all together, but if they have a penis, they are a man, a vagina, they are a woman, period

Oh btw, this was the morning headline

Man Arrested After Claiming To Be Transgender, Filming Women In Restroom

^ but even if the person was transgender... This would still be illegal? This would not have changed anything. If the person really wanted to go into the womens restroom he would have found a way. i assume it wouldnt be to hard to lock a stall and he can film or do whatever he wants.

Especially when transmen - a lot of them look more manly then there counterparts... So i think it would be harder to figure out who..

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/trans-man-takes-selfie-campaign-fight-ridiculous-bathroom-bans120315/#gs.xHIp9Rg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-carolina-transgender-tweet_us_56f3f787e4b04c4c3761652b

Now i didnt have time to read those through but they both would be using the ladies restroom.. And honestly i know transmen that were kinda disgusting in a bad way.

Personally i think its kinda silly.

Also a lot of the people who are pretending to be transgender dont really look transgender. Its not really something you decide on a whim.
They also generally dont use the medication ---> if you are on hormone treatment, (TMI Warning)

TMI... you cant even use my male anotomy for anything sexual. It literally does not work. this is super common for anyone who is actually a transwoman. I mean.. Usually all you have to do to determine it is figure out if they are on hormones and actually going through the therapy.

Which then people bring up how do you know.

How do you know that a transman isnt a man in the womens restroom.

Honestly its all pretty silly because the argument can go either way.

Now granted i do not think that fear and pictures of transmen in womens restrooms is really the way to try to change something. THats literally just going to make people who are worried about us think we are some super evil group of people.

Either way, i dont really think it should be something so cut and dry. Honestly id go for something along the lines of getting an F on your driver license should be much easier then getting surgery.

Female on the driver license could state you have been on hormone treatment for like 6 months and living fulltime as a female.

Would cause people who are pretending if they are caught to easily tell the difference by just an ID

But everyone makes such a huge deal about what the ID says so that will never happen. Silly.

Plus i dont really carry my ID on me when im in restrooms so i guess it really wouldnt do anything

Not sure. But there have been females who have been kicked out of establishments for using their restrooms because they didnt have their ID & people assumed they were trans. Its been happening a lot around here actually.

Anyways i got 10 min to get ready for work and im ranting enough and its not going to change anyones mind whose already decided one way or against.

Also ben i believe bob mentioned this, right now its a toss up which one we go to but we are put in solitary confinement to protect us.

It really is protection... as strange as it sounds, it is dangerous.

I think a law was just passed recently though that outlawed that for LGBT groups (though im sure they will do it anyways, not bad honestly, there just isnt a better solution currently and the protection is preferred over being attacked. so i mean... either way in that scenario to me it doesnt matter which id go to because i know id be put into lockdown. WHich is crappy but honestly preferred)

Also with something not as cut and dry....

Locker rooms. Public showers.
Im not sure which way to lean on it because i can see both sides of that coin very very well.

But when i go to the gym i personally never use the showers for that reason.. Even though my gym would let me... I go in put my stuff up work out grab it without even changing and head home.

But then again im also stealth so no one really knows im transgender at this point so.. *shrug*

Either way i can see both sides of that and i dont know where i feel we should stand on that as a society thing.

All of my transgender friends dont use mens or womens showers simply because either way we know its really weird and odd and it makes everyone uncomfortable.

^^^^^

My advice is you simply stay out of prison, lol

As for restrooms, well that's a little more difficult....:)

Take care and all the best,
Ben

ps thanks for bringing this up though - it's enlightened me to some of the problems you must face in every day life and made me think.

I'm going to be super candid here, and please bare with me through this whole post.

The day this was posted, I was very much like yes. Yes we should have these laws. I don't want men cross-dressing (perverts are this stupid) trying to say "well, I identify as a woman today" and coming into the bathroom that children are in... and then I kind of realized wait - why am I only concerned about children when it's in regards to a women's bathroom? Boys go alone in men's rooms all the time, too. So I start to kind of look at how I've just been taught talking points my whole life and just want to keep things the same, because honestly? It's easier for ME, and MY life.

Then my faith comes into play. I really struggle with the idea of the mentality because, well, I don't have that same struggle. I don't understand, and I CAN'T, because I'm just not in the same shoes. I have my own struggles, not necessarily unique to be, either, but they're more "accepted" struggles (that haven't always been accepted). What it comes down to is I know that every single human being on this planet is broken. My personal friendship with Jesus causes me to truly believe that all of these broken people (transgender, gay, straight, white, black, yellow, pink, the purple freaking people eater, men, women, children, every.single.human) need a Savior. The Christian community and Church as a whole pushes against anything that's called sin in the Bible (homosexuality, for example, is a well known sin in the Bible. So is gossip. And lying. And looking at a person with lustful eyes. Complaining. Grumbling. Boom - every single one of you reading this has sinned. No sin is lesser or greater than another - a murderer is just as loved by God as is the little white liar, but somehow we like to rank the sins and focus on the "big, bad" ones...) and singles out people.

I don't want to be known as a Jesus follower who isolates people from Jesus. If Jesus followers are to be the hands and feet, the light of the world, the salt of the Earth - HOW are we going to do this if we isolate ourselves from people we think are "bigger sinners" than the rest of us? Loving people, TRULY loving them, means chasing after their hearts. Connecting. Letting God's love shine through onto them, ESPECIALLY if they (general they) don't know God.

So while I still can't understand the true issue in the hearts of a man or woman who is transgendered and what must feel like a true soul-ache, I can understand that they are broken, just like me, a white female from a little country bumpkin town that lives in a tiny little protected bubble. I may not experience the same injustices and hurts, especially from people labeled Christians, but I do experience injustices and hurts from people (Christians, too -- I wish people would realize we are not immune to hurting others). I may not know the EXACT same struggle, but I do know struggle in my own journey. No one is less, no one is greater.

I think we set people up on a pedestal and say well xyz has these privileges and they just have it so easy. If my missions to Guatemala have taught me anything, it's that pain is universal. Different pain. Different circumstances. But we all feel it. That hurt, that heartbreak.

So I choose to err on the side of grace and mercy. I choose to believe that where the Bible tells me to love my neighbor and I will be judged in the way I judge others, I'm gonna give grace... because Lord knows I need a huge, fat, heaping dosage of it.

In the end, I've changed my heart, or rather, Jesus has. We need to battle the perverts, the abusers, not people who just want to use the bathroom to...legitimately use the bathroom.

PHEW, sorry, I had a lot of processing about this I wanted to do. lol.

Had a feeling you were struggling with this topic, and I know you're not alone. I'm sure a handful of PnQ'ers have read this thread and not participated. I apologize for how harsh my posts have been, and appreciate that you have posted and are being as candid as possible, and also as receptive to contrary views. That's the most anyone can ask for.

Can I just say... I'm thankful, in cases like this, that I'm not religious. It makes having my opinions much easier, otherwise I'm sure I'd be experiencing your same inner conflict. Because I don't believe in "sin," I've never had to try to love someone even though my faith tells me they are a sinner. I can't imagine what that's like. Nothing in my own moral guideline tells me the LGBT community is broken, so there's no inner turmoil I have about supporting/loving them.

I agree that we all suffer, and we suffer in different ways that can be hard to relate to. One of my classes has been dealing with happiness, what it is, how it's affected, and it touches on this point. I've learned a lot of enlightening things already actually.

Thank you for your post britt. Honestly i made a post here because i was hoping more conservative groups would post. I honestly want to see and read what they say without being attacked. If i try through any other means i get some pretty hefty hate thats fairly hard to get anything out of. I know a lot of it boils down to peoples faith. Which is funny because ive attempted to go to churches in my area that are hate free because i enjoy listening and learning. I was actually i really strong Christian at one point but struggled greatly to find a church of any kind.

So now i mostly read the bible in my own time and read. The bathroom thing wasnt an issue with churches simply because i generally did not use the restroom in them (I personally don't like making other people feel uncomfortable) but enough churches have threatened my life (and one group someone actually spat on me) that i generally do not go to them. Granted this was awhile ago but i believe that its still probably the same.

Either way thank you for the post britt.

I just hope that more people with your point of view will come forward, i know Bob is very passionate also and i know its one of those issues where we will never agree on.

"I've never had to try to love someone even though my faith tells me they are a sinner. I can't imagine what that's like. Nothing in my own moral guideline tells me the LGBT community is broken, so there's no inner turmoil I have about supporting/loving them."

Jane I will say it has nothing to do with the LGBT community being LGBT that makes them broken. We are ALL broken. Every. Single. Person. If we are not all broken, Jesus died for absolutely nothing. He died for humanity, because we -all- sin. I'm sorry if my post came across as I view that "group" of people as sinners, but realistically, I view every single person as a sinner... not because faith says so, but because no one is righteous and perfect. You don't have to believe in God to see that, I don't think :)

The inner struggle I have isn't because of my faith, it's because of the people who have distorted that faith. I truly believe Jesus is face-palming over Christians who act "in His name" and yet they are hating people. That's not the Bible I read, that's not the Jesus I know. So when you have beliefs that are man-made shoved down your throat of you have to hate certain sinners, but love other sinners (since we all sin) but homosexuality is a bigger sin than lying (it's not, not in God's eyes)... that's where it's like wait... DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN HEAR YOURSELF TALKING? It makes absolutely no sense to rank sin. The Bible says if you do not love others you do not love God. Not if you do not love other people who love you, or who act like you, believe like you, look like you... other people. Everyone. Even the terrorist. The homeless. The adulterer. The murderer. The liar. The list goes on. Even the sweetest, well meaning people are hard to love. I think I'm learning so much more about Jesus and growing in my relationship with Him, and in that I learn more about how to love people, like REALLY love them. And there is no condemnation in love.
More rambling, sorry, haha.

Girl who never was (I don't know your name, I feel like once you tell me I'll be like oh, duh! haha) I'm really sorry that you had that experience. There's absolutely no excuse for it. We may disagree on things, but it doesn't call for hate, not one bit. This is something I've definitely matured in, and humility goes a long way. It just goes to show that you can call yourself a Christian and not follow Jesus. :/ I'm glad that those hateful people did not turn you away from God. My favorite church ever is actually in North Carolina, and that pastor is one who helped open my eyes to this thinking. He repeatedly says don't you dare tell me you read my Bible, and then hate someone in Jesus name - that's not the Jesus I know. And it's like um, yes! YES!

Social issues of any kind are scary and difficult, because SOMETIMES fear is from the lack of understanding. It's hard to change things. Somehow in this very country we went from having black men work on and sign our Constitution, and then hundreds of years later had to pass a bill to make them known as human and not property. I'm sure that was a terrifying change back then, as stupid as it sounds. We cling to what we know and when it changes, it's like wait. Why are we doing this?

I just want people to love Jesus. I'm never going to prove He is real in my life if I believe and act differently from Him.

Bahh I just wrote this whole post, hit submit, and I wasn't logged in. Lost forever.

Essentially, I said:

"Jane I will say it has nothing to do with the LGBT community being LGBT that makes them broken. We are ALL broken. Every. Single. Person. If we are not all broken, Jesus died for absolutely nothing. He died for humanity, because we -all- sin. I'm sorry if my post came across as I view that "group" of people as sinners, but realistically, I view every single person as a sinner... not because faith says so, but because no one is righteous and perfect. You don't have to believe in God to see that, I don't think :)"

I agree we're all broken, or flawed, and from a Christian standpoint, we're all sinners. I think we also agree on most sins, or why they are considered sins. Most sins fall within my own moral code (don't kill people, steal, lie, cheat, etc.), but some things considered 'sin' are what caused me to lose my faith. Homosexuality, for example, and also the denigration of handicapped people, and quite a lot about the duties of women. I shouldn't have suggested your faith was causing your inner struggle because I know your faith and Jesus bring you peace and comfort. Quite the opposite of inner turmoil. My faith as a child did cause me inner turmoil though, so that's why I said it. Being Christian and learning about homosexuality as a bad thing when my best friend's moms (lesbians) were such wonderful, loving, generous people... it was hard to comprehend. I foolishly told my best friend that I was scared her parents would go to hell because homosexuality is a sin. Years later, she told me how much that hurt her and terrified her, and I felt awful. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I meant no offense by my last post. Religion is different for us all, and it has been very positive in your life. I think that's great. Even greater if it helps you to love people. All people. I know I'm not that good. There are some evils I cannot forgive or look past, and some broken people who cannot be fixed. Like a case I reviewed today about a father torturing and raping his pre-adolescent daughter for ten years until she was finally rescued by a social worker. It's people like that who make me feel hate.

^ Thats awesome

I was Nei - i was going through a name change every week for awhile so i just stopped updating my User name. Im actually in the process right now to officially change my name. Once it goes through i figure it change it to that on the site that way it will be permanent. Till then i do not want to chance choosing something then changing it again on people. So i dont really go by an online name right now.