Weekly Winners - May 23, 2016

We can argue until the cows come home, but this isn't getting us anywhere.

What is clear is that people have different ideas as to what is acceptable and what isn't. If you are down to earth or blunt, you will often meet with disapproval. Why should people step carefully around those who don't?
But, as above, it isn't just me so it is too simple for you to just tell people to 'stop complaining' - life isn't that black and white. There is an issue here or we wouldn't be discussing it.
If the judge is happy to be so 'honest' then surely, they are happy to take a little bit of....'banter' back.

If it was just me, I would have held my hands up and said sorry, I've got it wrong. But there are two sides clearly, Britt, whether you like it or not.

Ben, I've responded earlier regarding the judge's remarks above, the judge did not mean to come across as rude, but simply stated their thought process behind their selections, it may be rude, but I think it's important to let people practice free speech, there's nothing in the judge's comments that come across as purposefully malicious.

I can see why you think the comments come across as belittling, but I will still defend the judge's comments and their ability to comment and select poems however they please.

As at the end of the day, the weekly contest was something was implemented to showcase poems and poets, I believe comments were not mandated in the earlier stages and were included to help poets grow, and offer some insight as to the reasoning behind their selection, and it's run by some absolutely wonderful people who set aside some time to read the nominated poems and judge, it's something that's they're doing out of the goodness of their heart and something we should really be grateful for, and allow the to operate with autonomy, if they don't like a poem or thought that a week's worth of nominated poems were boring or weak, and wanted to make note of that, then they should be able to do so. Yes it's comes across as rude, but they should be able to do so. And another thing, the contest works off nominated poems, and relies on people to nominate poems, if for a week all that was nominated were formed poetry, and the judge in question prefers free-verse, and wanted to make note of that, then they can. It just worked out that one week there were a lot more formed poetry being nominated by the community, not anyone's fault nor does it mean the judge was being flippant of the competition for that week.

Mark

I appreciate what you are saying, I honestly do. But like I said, if you are going to make remarks like "I am bored tonight" then there will always be risk of offense being caused. If none was meant, fine, that's great, and if they are not flippant towards the competition, that's fine too but it was a flippant remark, open to misinterpretation. Which leads me back to what I said: Perhaps a little more thought should be applied.
Again, I should point out Mark, it isn't just me with the issue.

something that's they're doing out of the goodness of their heart and something we should really be grateful for

^^

And again, this doesn't give anyone free license to make those kind of remarks or make them exempt from criticism for doing so.

Lol.

I'm an awfully young woman and therefore that disqualifies me, I get it.

Ben, I'm sorry that you read everything with a clearly negative underlying tone. If you could hear my voice, you'd hear me laughing like "c'mon, man, let's move on. Life is way more than this, relax a little!". But apparently I'm coming across as arrogant. I haven't been called that in a long time, so maybe I'm just a tad too jet-lagged and need more coffee before logging in today ;)

Oh, and I don't even like horses. (sorry, Jane).

I know it wasn't just you. Samia, Andrea, and Darren agree with the fact that it came across as rude. I can definitely see why, but there is a different between being blatantly rude, and coming across as rude. The judge's comments were the latter, the judge has reached out to Jane and myself, to let us know there wasn't no malicious intent by that statement.

That said, if the judge was blatantly rude and submitted a comment such as "wow, finally a poem that does not blow. literally everything else was absolutely painful to read.", what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to ask the judge to play nice and rewrite that comment, or let them practice free speech. I ask that genuinely, and not as a rhetorical question.

Very witty, Britt but at no time have I seen a hint from you of 'let's move on' or that laughing across the Atlantic.

Goodnight Britt.

Mark

Lovely to speak moderately with a modertator.

I see and agree with what you are saying, absolutely, in regards to not being able to do anything. On the other hand, at no point did I or others ask anyone to do anything - we just raised the issue.

Some people don't know how to deal with criticism. Plain and simple. No judge is forcing any poet to accept the changes they might suggest, and at the end of the day it should never be taken personal. It's the poet's choice how to react to something. If I, as a mod or member, felt a judge was harassing someone or making personal comments directed toward the poet's character, then I would raise that as an issue and question whether or not that judge should be on the panel. If we didn't think the judges were being honest and judging for the right reasons, we probably wouldn't have them still judging.

Take it with a grain of salt.

EDIT: In this case, it shouldn't bother the poet if the judge says forms aren't his favorite. Or that he/she is growing sick and tired of them being nominated, or bored of them. He/she is being bluntly honest. I like and admire that too. We all have different tastes and it's not like it's infringing on the poet's right now to keep using forms and writing in a certain style.

I can't help the way you read me, Ben, but I assure you, I am not the arrogant child you think I am. It's OKAY to have differing opinions, but it's not okay to personally attack. You get pissed when people do that to you. And I feel like it's more socially acceptable to be witty than arrogant, so I'll go with that.

Child? Never mentioned.

Poet on the piano - NOT about criticism - read the whole thread - it was about flippant remarks about the comp!

Pardon my exaggeration... an awfully young woman to have such authority. :)

Ben, I know you never asked to do something about it, but genuinely asking, how are we to proceed now that the issue's been raised. I think all of the mods would prefer to grant complete autonomy to judges and only step in when there are issues, such as evidence that the judge is being biased (conspiring to vote for a certain member or clubs poems only), or just be a downright rude comment without it being constructive i.e "this poems sucks." (which would be a bit hypocritical since the judge would've voted for it), but to my knowledge none of these scenarios have happened.

From what I saw above, 3-4 people agree with Ben's long post -- assuming that means they agree with every word of it since no one specified.

Alright, so it seems a handful of members think this judge has every right to be critical or blunt, and a handful think judges should not say anything at all if they haven't anything nice to say.

A couple things:
1) When and if this judge reveals themselves, I think you'll all be surprised. In my opinion, this person is one of the nicest albeit sometimes cheekiest member of PnQ - always in an endearing way.

2) Seems we're split down the middle and that's no good for moving forward.

3) People who have never judged don't have the credibility to criticize judges. We struggle every term to convince people to step up. Finding judges isn't easy. When we pick them apart, they likely won't volunteer again. And then where will we be? No more site contest before long. Getting mad at a volunteer for doing their job every week and doing it the best that they can hardly seems appropriate coming from someone who's never volunteered. Our judges have very busy lives, but they still step up to the plate. It's a thankless job.

4) Hasn't this judge been more harshly judged at this point than they themselves have judged harshly? They've been insulted left and right and have no voice to defend themselves as they respect the importance of judge anonymity.

Right.

Jane, I will try to make this clear again.

"....shouldn't say anything at all if they don't have anything nice to say."

^^^

No. I never said that at all and I don't believe anyone has. There's too much word play and deflecting of the issue going on here.

My point is this: Critique a poem, say what's good/bad about it but stick to the nomination. Making negative comments like "I am bored tonight" has nothing to do with the judging of a poem. If you don't like a poem, don't vote for it. The one you do vote for, critique - positives and negatives.

Mark. I am not necessarily saying anything can be done, but that doesn't stop 1000s protesting at a Trump convention or people sitting up a tree for weeks on end to have it cut down anyway.

All I am saying is that perhaps a little more care with comments that aren't relevant to the poetry (such as the example I keep highlighting) are though about.

If I stand up now and scream and shout that I am homophobic, people will get annoyed.

If I - later on - say "I was only joking " - would that have stopped the outcry? No, because you didn't know that I was only joking.

If anything can come of this (at Mark) then perhaps just an awareness of how things can be construed.

As I say, pick a poem to pieces constructively - fine - but stick to the topic.

Britt - I'm done, and I'm sorry it's got like this.

So I read the comment as "I'm bored of these poems" more so than "I'm having a boring night" ?

Oooooooohhhhhhhhhhh you know what? This judge usually writes the mod some comments before the scoring/comment section in the PM.

What I'm seeing here,is the judge is entitled to comment how he or she sees fit...supported by the moderators. ..
And others

But Ben is not entitled to share his concern?

So some people feel one way and others feel differently. ..that's how it goes. ..

Everyone is entitled to share a concern... however when addressed by the mod team that we have verified and all collectively feel it's not malicious, and then judges get picked apart... that's the not okay part, in my own opinion.

Throughout the history of this contest, judges have been made out to be bad guys so often. The quicker we nip nit picking in the bud, the better. It's a thankless job, and having SO many people refuse to volunteer because of the nasty comments, you can see why we want to eliminate nasty comments that don't get anyone anywhere, which it seems like it has been lead to this.

Britt

You simply refuse to see that there may be another side, don't you?
Just because a judge is a judge doesn't give them the Almighty power to say and do as they please without the possibility of somebody taking a disliking to it.
The judges being hard to come by is neither here nor there as far as the morals of the issue go.

As for "nipping it in the bud " - well that really is freedom of speech and a liberal mentality finely displayed, isn't it? It's funny, freedom of speech in this politically correct time, seems often only to work one way. "Nip it in the bud" - you are a moderator, Britt, not our high school teacher.

Ben...I read your last response to me before you changed it. You know the one where you said "I'd made a clown of myself" in a previous thread? You have also called me a 'glorified troll' further up in the thread. Not only do I find name calling to be childish but I also find it extremely rude. I don't think you should be pointing the finger at this judge and calling them rude when you are clearly not shy to being rude yourself.

I actually see all sides, as it's not just a 2 sided issue. I'm in favor of the judges side. Not the mods, not the members. In this case, it's the judge. You've had your ability to speak quite freely, including being deliberately disrespectful to multiple people. I'm not throwing a fit, nor am I even using my mod powers, because that'd be ridiculous... so please understand that I am not stopping free speech. Technically I could delete this entire thread - now that would be stifling speech, but I won't and wouldn't do that. This hasn't been a monologue, but a heated discussion. Ben, you clearly have it out for me today, and to be quite honest, I'm allowing you to get under my skin. I'm choosing to not allow that to happen anymore for my own personal mental health. I'm letting you know this because I don't want it to come across in any other way or that I am purposefully ignoring you. Rather than saying things I don't truly mean because I am extra tired/cranky/emotional/whatever you want to call it, I'm just going to bow out of this thread entirely.

Hope you all have a great night.

Hellon - good to see you here, old girl. I knew you'd show up.
Yes, I thought I'd be more moderate as I didn't want to remind everyone of the unnecessary grief you gave the judges last term - thus ending in you making a clown of yourself. But as you are happy to acknowledge it, I'll run with it.

Now, let's just think back to that charade.....

Bit rich, isn't it Hellon - you backing the judges after that embarrassing time...

Britt - go on, delete the thread - I dare you. I'm sick to death of people thinking they can be rude to people and have nothing back in return. you look how you started this conversation tonight and then look in the mirror. STOP COMPLAINING EVERONE or some such - very moderate.

oh, I think I even apologised, yet you continued.

And Britt, when have I ever been anything but polite to you in comments or messages? Never. So maybe - just maybe - it could be the way you entered this discussion tonight that got my back up.

Response from the judge:

----------

When I agreed to judge I set myself certain targets/standards.
I will not vote for a poem over a week old. Most of the nominated poems sit around for two weeks in the contest nominations section unless they win. This means the same poem could receive an HM two weeks in a row. If it didn't win one week why should it win the next?
Just my opinion.
(I did break this rule once with Larry's poem, but his poem was magical and once the mistake was rectified deserved another look)

If I am stuck for who to award votes to I will pick a fresh face.
This will usually mean that if I have a tie for first, second or third I will pick a member who hasn't won before or not often.
For it to tie means in my mind both poems are equal, I can only choose one.
Why a new member?
To keep the contest interesting and give everyone an even chance of winning.
How does the contest look to a new member if the same pool of 6 or 7 poets win every week?
If they don't know the site or its members it looks like a closed shop.

I would use spelling or grammar to split the 10,7 and 4 positions.
Every week I compile a top 6, then I look through them all again and eliminate or relegate poems based on spelling and grammar. The best poem of that week shouldn't contain mistakes.

My Comments;

"Nice to see some new names nominated this week, much more enjoyable to judge tonight. However I fear I am not an unbiased judge anymore. If it is a form I wont score it high unless it is the best of a bad bunch. I am also trying to distance myself from knowing who the authors are as I read. It is difficult when the choices are limited."

I actually enjoy formed poetry and have written heaps of it myself. This comment as with all my 'rude' comments are targeted at the pnq community as a whole. There seems to be a trend of nominating formed poetry as acts of genius because it is a form. Are forms difficult to write?
Properly yes.
Most of the forms nominated have little imagery or meaning behind the poem. They have the correct syllable count and the rhyming scheme is correct, but they are soulless.
In most instances it is ticking boxes
in my opinion.

I have been harsh some weeks, yet I am actually bored tonight. Form after form after another form...

The part of the comment discussed on the boards ^

The other half of the comment not discussed ;
I wanted something different yet I have been presented the same gifts just re-wrapped and re-worded.
A circle of nominations that is turning the weekly into a closed shop.
I was tempted to step down as a judge tonight. Purely because I am not sure whether or not I am truly impartial in my choices. Not that I am picking the same people...more I am avoiding to try and help the weekly have more variety of winners.

With this comment I questioned my own rules. I questioned whether my style of judging was producing the fruits I was searching for.
Like it or not when you read 20 odd poems every week and these are similar to the week before or the week before that, it gets stale. Again this is not an issue with the poets nominated. They cannot help who nominates their work and what they choose to nominate. This is aimed at those who do not use their nomination to add variety to the contest. I questioned my impartiality, I was looking for something different but was that the right thing to do? What makes a different poem better written than a good sonnet?
I like to explain my thought process.

I thank the members who have spoke up, at least this has stirred up some passion.
My ultimate aim as a judge is to see an open contest where every poem has a chance written by anybody on the site, from a new member to a stalwart. If only a fraction of the poets who have nominator status are nominating then this will never happen. This week I saw a change in the poems nominated. It seems people were digging more for poems worthy of gracing the front page. Giving us judges more choice.
For those that disagree I ask you to look at your last 15 nominations, how many of those were spread across numerous poets?
Finally I am only one judge among 5. I feel for the other judges who's comments are not receiving much response. My 10 counts for nothing if the other 4 were in agreement with their choices.

A great and hugely appreciated response, at least from me.

Right. Nominations. I think we've had this before. It is a problem, but the reality is that if I read six or seven poets week in and week out I guess I am more likely to nominate their work. But I nominate it regularly because I read a lot of their work because I enjoy it.
I would also like to say that- most weeks - I use all three of my nominations. I think I nominated Larrry, Michael and Cassie (or Andrea)

I nominate them a lot as I find their work original and often excellent. Biut, I also spend a lot of time commenting on new members work and encouraging them too.
I do agree with the judge that formed poetry should not necessarily be voted because it is formed; ultimately, a poem should move you and say something.

To the judge:

I am genuinely sorry if I have caused you offense but I hope you can understand how SOME of your comments may have been misconstrued. I don't actively set out to get into rows with anyone here but I do lose my cool and say some stupid things sometimes - I guess I am overly passionate and a little sensitive.

Mark.

Thank you for all your sensible work throughout.

That's me done as it seems the issue is well and truly resolved.

All the best

When is the next judge cycle?

Glad that cleared things up,, and it is from july-october. The current judging cycle ends the last week of june!

edit: september, not october. woops.

Ah what a troublesome situation...

I feel there's nothing against the judge, rather is just about those particular lines - that type of wording that comment has that can give negative vibes.
To the judge: You seem to be doing a pretty good job. But please just be mindful of a few lines within your comments that may be taken wrongly. If you are able to spot them, may be find a way of rewording them?(just saying ) Overall, I do enjoy reading over the judges comments. XD

Also I think I might write you a sonnet tonight...XD or who knows.

I mean...

I like sonnets and I'm guilty of nominating them. I can't help it... i come across a few I find worthy ...and I just click and vote and there it goes to the nomination list.

Anyhow, Jane,
Yes! Everyone has their preferences. Hurray for that. I preferred corn tortilla tacos over flour tortilla tacos, yum. However, if I were to have a burrito, I would choose a flour tortilla then. Ah my dilemma.

Off to attempt to write a sonnet.

Have a nice day.

Ty

Lucero - your posts never fail to lighten even the darkest of threads, lol

Everlasting, couldn't agree with you more about tortilla types!

I was a little shocked by the name-calling in this thread and almost clicked to edit a comment, but I haven't used any editing/deleting mod powers in the discussion boards for years... I fear I've become a cowardly moderator. Let me remain that way please and rephrain from name-calling in the future. We can all be perfectly mean and rude to each other without it, ha.

I'm relieved this seems resolved. Of course if anyone has anything else they'd like to add, they should feel free. Claiming the mod squad doesn't allow free speech is a little bit funny... When's the last time anyone was moderated on the discussion boards?

Back to work for me.
Toodles, poets.

This has been a cathartic thread indeed. I applaud the fact that no one edited a post or deleted the thread. A good fight is a wonderful way to clear discontent.

I admire that the process is so completely different from years back.

"If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed."

-- Benjamin Franklin

I know he won't mind me saying this, but years ago when one of my (terrible!) poems won the front page, Bob came out and said I should not be a winner because my poem was absolutely horrible. It lacked technique and honest connection. I was so upset when I read that, like really mad actually, because HOW DARE HE. He called me out! That's not nice!

^that's when we kicked ass and took names later, man we were some very opinionated people back then, now the world and the site has changed drastically, let's give everyone a trophy these days and tell them they are the next best thing since peanut butter and jelly, and then they'll continue doing the same ole yada yada yada. There are valid points on both sides. If the criticism applies take note, if it doesn't, keep it moving. There are many gifted writers on this site and also many not so gifted that keep getting recognition because of the circles they keep and that's ok too, it's up to the judges to not only judge the poems on their quality, but they must also decide between content, relevancy, structure, format, etc......as one who has judged I can tell you, it sounds easy, but it's a pain in the ass, some weeks you're looking for something to grace the front pages, and it's a difficult task because the work submitted just isn't up to par and you have to make concessions, other weeks there's like 10 or 15 that could do the front page justice and you have to decide on the best ones all the way around, usually reading them over and over and making a case for one over the other......it's a damn nightmare, and the fanfare to be honest isn't worth it, but you do it for the members, and because you love being a part of the site.

I applaud the fact that no one edited a post or deleted the thread

^^^

Not quite true Larry...Ben edited one of his posts. The one were he referred to me as "making a clown of myself" in a previous thread but..hey that's ok...he finally reiterated his statement.

In answer Ben....I am not embarrassed in anyway about the thread you refer to...Unlike the 'harrassment' you are causing this one particular judge because you feel their comments are not in your favour and are therefore unacceptable I just came right out and said I thought a certain judge was from a certain club...PR and....as it turned out I was correct....why should that embarrass me?

Bit rich, isn't it Hellon - you backing the judges after that embarrassing time...

^^^

I think the judge has said more positive things than they have been given credit for...by you anyway.

Lol, Hellon.

I truly applaud you for the art you so consistently display in regards to twisting words and forgetting the crux of a situation to suit you at any given time - commendable, indeed.

But, let's just have a look a little more accurately at your comments and see if we can't find some flaws....done! That didn't take long, did it?

"because you feel their comments are not in your favour"
^^

Let's look at that one first. Now, I will very carefully reiterate again - especially for you - that this was never about me. Look at the comments I have highlighted as having an issue with; they are to do with the competition - not me. So let's leave your little fixation on me aside for a minute, glance over the thread again and then - and only then - if you still have anything in regards to my problem being about me, we will discuss it again.
I don't like to go on, but as stated above, the comments on my poem confused me - I asked the question - and the judge has explained them.

Right then. Now that that's cleared up, let's look a little more closely at that last debacle that involved you.

As I recall - but I may well be losing my memory (one of us is anyway) - it went a little further than you pointing out that there was a PR judge. In fact, I'll do away with the manners (yes, again) and just come right on out and sya it, good woman! You actively accused said judge of bias (completely unfounded at the time), Mark then produced a VERY (sorry, very) comprehensive list of how the votes had been distributed and you were conclusively proven incorrect.
You did not once hold your hands up for the constant and unjustified abuse you dealt the judges - everyone apologised but the one person who should - you - and everyone on the site got sick to the back teeth of you.

Now, there's the details - what say you of them?

Edit I have come back to this after 10 minutes. I believe the details are accurate, but obviously you don't, Hellon. I have had a wretched few days and I am suffering and simply don't have the fight for this anymore.
I made a point rightly or wrongly because I thought It needed saying. Others disagree, and that's fine - I know there are two sides. I think the issue itself is resolved now.
The continuation of this is purely personal between You and I Hellon, and is entirely pointless. We don't see eye to eye for whatever reason, and that's life - but surely, this isn't getting us anywhere? Not me anyway.
As I stated,my life has been tough the last few days and I have been constantly wound up - maybe it culminated in all this - but let's just leave it there now. The issue has become irrelevant now; it is the Hellon and Ben show and neither of us come out smelling of roses in this one.

I am well and truly done and can't carry on with this thread at the moment, so say your piece if you wish Hellon - or even message me, god forbid - and let's move on.

All the best everyone and I am genuinely sorry for the bad feeling all this has caused - rightly or wrongly,

Ben

Mark was not a mod at the time if I remember correctly so he would not have had access to the voting pattern...he did provided different possible scenarios, that's all. Jane actually came up with the voting pattern and, while it did look like one particular judge was voting for a certain club and in between times voting for members who were particular friend of theirs I decided not to pursue the matter further due to certain circumstances...the fact is...I wagered a bet that one judge was from a certain club and..I was correct so..it's not me who's losing my memory pal....

You guys are married to each other aren't you?......lmao

^ We really need to get Janis to put in a "like" button

Congrats Winners and HM's :)

Thank you judges for your insightful comments and valuable time and thanks Mark for hosting.

You know rather then bickering and nit picking about comments I think each and every member here must appreciate the fact that these judges are giving up their time to read each and every entry and give insightful comments.

Its not easy been a judge and they are all giving their honest feelings. Even if you are going to publish a book there will be judges and critics out there who will like, and nit pick about your book! If they like it they like if not then not!! Its the same here so for heaven's sake lets not make this a "lets attack the judge" week and APPRECIATE the work done!!

Otherwise STEP UP, be a JUDGE and do what is EXPECTED!

Congratulations to all the winners!!!!!!