Quick Question for you guys (basically let's fight/debate)

Is it helpful in improving writing?

To me is the similar to receiving a vote. It doesn't help much in improving, or vice versa, to some a vote or the words might be helpful.

The way I see it, all the required comment will be doing is identifying the voters. That is in the case that people don't know what to comment.

So I really feel that what really would help is having the voters identify.

The vote isn't like a vote for the contest to see who wins so I don't think it'll really matter if they just get an I'm speechless, or that was great. Now if someone posted a low vote or a needs work comment and then just said something like "not great", then that's annoying, but really...it's not the end of the world.

Yeah, it wouldn't matter. And very true, it's not the end of the world.

I just have this weird sensation that I can't figure out what exactly is. I'm like "yeah, the requirement might help, as people want an explanation for receiving lower votes, but..."

I have this feeling that I can't figure out what it is. I hate it when that happen. I hope others might comment their views and may be that will help me figure out.

Everlasting, it seems one of your concerns is wanting to vote, but not leave a comment. Assuming this is partially because commenting takes more time, what if there was a "bookmark this poem" option so you would remember to come back later to leave a comment + vote?
Honestly, I'm with you on this and am already envisioning all the potential problems and new complaints we would receive with a changed voting system. But that's good. Hopefully we can come up with a well thought out new system and whenever implemented, we can tweak it as we go :)

As for lack of depth in comments, what if there was a minimum word limit? Say, 10 words. We could have prompts for each numerical vote. For instance, you click "1" and a prompt comes up, "Please comment in 10 words or more how this poem could be improved in your opinion. What are the poem's weaknesses? What is one strength?"
A "3" vote might generate a prompt like, "Please comment in 10 words or more how this poem made you feel. What are the poem's strengths? Are there any filler words, grammatical errors, or structural errors? Do some parts seem forced? Can cuts be made?"
So on and so forth.
The prompt idea was inspired by Darren.

Also, it would be awesome if voters/commenters got a notice when a poem they've voted/commented on receives an edit, and could subsequently adjust their vote & add more to their comment. Maybe only 3 vote changes allowed?

How about separate sections for poems with the most votes regardless of score and for poems with the highest overall scores within a 1 week timeframe?

Keep in mind, you would still be able to comment without
voting (unless we decide to change that too).

There's a lot to consider. Keep brainstorming!

"Also, it would be awesome if voters/commenters got a notice when a poem they've voted/commented on receives an edit, and could subsequently adjust their vote & add more to their comment. Maybe only 3 vote changes allowed?"

I like that!!

I read over my comment up there and realize I may have seemed kind of "my way only", I really am just throwing my idea out there too. I was in a hurry when I wrote it and not much thought went into it lo.

Some sort of vote change ability could be useful.

Britt, I don't think any of your posts have come off that way. We are members too, not just mods, so it's valuable for us to add our ideas/opinions IMO. Heck, look at how many time I've posted already. Oops.

The problem at the moment is that almost every vote given is a 5, so a 5/5 vote has no value, even if your poem genuinely rocks someone's world. Comments are where it's at. Having to comment before voting is an improvement but I bet it'll still come down to a lot of 'I live your poem, 5/5' type comments.

For a voting system to work better (I don't think it'll ever work truly on such a subjective site) I think there needs to be a culture change across all members of the site. I was never a fan of the voting system either way so don't really mind what happens to it. But how lovely and refreshing it would be to get a genuine, backed-up-by-a-comment 2/5, 3/5 or 4/5.

I think a 'like' type button would be better for responding to forum posts and maybe even other people's comments instead of on poems themselves.

^ I see your point, Colm.

I love the brainstorming here, seriously. My thoughts: the emoticons/like/love don't fit PnQ the way they fit and seem to make Facebook more active or vocal. I agree with Colm that the "like" button seems useful for discussions or showing your support/solidarity in the forums. To me, a like doesn't add substance after reading a poem. . Same with "dislike" or "needs work". It would be the minimal reaction from someone and wouldn't satisfy me as someone who may want a critique, unique perspective on a poem.

Go, Abby! You said something that needs to be reiterated and shouted down these lonely PnQ halls. We need words. All the different feels (wow, angry, sad, etc) just encourage a person to use symbols instead of expression through words.

I'm definitely on board with the needing to comment to vote idea. I think a doable option would be the word limit? Like a Twitter post *tweet tweet* I like Darren's plan of attack by being faced with prompts, too. They could be simplified and just give a general thought-provoking question as to why that 1 or 2 was given.

I also saw Janis signed in..did he talk to any of you mods about his to do list...did he even acknowledge it?

Yes, to all of us. Janis is cleaning up a few issues.

The consensus seems to be the vote should change.
Major points to decide:
- voter anonymous or revealed?
- comments required before voting?
- numeric of some degree or simplified words (like, love, needs work, pending)?
- ability to change vote (low number or pending, needs work)?
- vote tied to comment?
- prompting?
- minimum # words?

I'm not for the minimum word limit or comment prompt ideas. Don't make it tedious. I think a comment should be unfiltered, raw.

If the commenter wants to write:
"Thump, whoosh, splat. Heart exploded."
That's five words, but to me, that still speaks authentically of the reader and I appreciate that. I appreciate all kinds of crap.

This is a poetry site, not an English comprehension class, and we invite all forms of expression from people of all english literacy levels.

I don't mind if we have symbols or numbers if a voting system must remain, but make the vote and voter accountable via a mandatory comment. Any comment.

I'm opt for requiring a comment only when the poem is given a 1, and a 2. May be a 3. And ask for an explanation as to why voting the poem with those rates.

I'm not for minimum word limits on what to comment. It sounds like what allpoetry is or was doing. I like pnq due to the freedom it has.

I'm up for Voters to be revelead.

Edit: Britt, no worries. I read your comments as given by a regular member rather than a mod. :D it sounds like an opinion.

Jane, I like the bookmarking idea. I think my main concern is that the site as it is, is not too active. I fear requiring comments when voting might incite less participation. There might be more readers and the only thing showing their "activeness" would be the views in the poems. I can be wrong.

In response to Larry:

-Voters revealed.
-Ambivalent. Maybe required.
-Numeric is my preference. Make "like" available for comments and forum posts.
-Perhaps ability to change vote once.
-If there is a comment & vote, tie them together.
-Prompting could be helpful, but Abby has a point.
-Minimum of 3 words or no minimum.

^^ I like this.

Not sure about the minimum number of words. I don't usually leave big comments, anyway =/

3.....when you hit three, it means the poem needs some major work. maybe after you hit three a list could pop up like
1. Grammar
2. Spelling
3. formatting or sentence structure

4. the poem is tight, but not perfect

5. must leave a detailed comment as to why you thought this poem is perfect.

a 3-5 voting system gets rid of the 1's and 2's, those demeaning, pathetic excuses, and would also put to rest the complaints of people viciously down voting, because if someone has 6 5's and receives a three, it's not going to alter the scoring that much.....Just a thought. A reversal from the comment on lower scores, and comment on why a person feels the poem deserves a perfect score. Because in all honesty, there's far more upvoting than down voting

"Because in all honesty, there's far more upvoting than down voting"

Good point.

I ain't seen much fighting guvnor,

All tickety boo and lippedy skip

By Jove we can all play nice sir....

(Apologies, just watched Columbo in London, the Americans perception of Londoners is very comical)

I just skimmed threw this quickly, i really worry about the Needs work - Grammar Spelling or so on and so fourth.

SOme of my poems have everything lowercase for a reason.. Or certain words misspelled for a reason. I just dont want downvotes for things i am intending on if we are revamping it in a way that i actually might look at them with.

We could also have it like Site Top Rates or something on the front page for poems that are like a month old or less.. Say like 5 of em?

Another thing would be to add voting to the feedlog so that when i log in i can see what people voted on what poems. Say if i know i like the poems Britt tends to vote on but not comment (if she ever does xD) then i want to see that. Maybe she just didnt have enough to say but still read that poem...

I dont commetn often but i read * alot

Other ideas could be that we could turn voting OFF for certain poems / account wide.
That way we dont have to receive votes on poems if we dont want them (I would prefer that tbh)

Or maybe if they leave a vote they have to leave a comment and the author could dispute it expalining the reasoning it they believe that vote was invalid (because the persons vote / comment would be tied together)

^ That would creatre much more work for the mods though and i doubt they want that.

Also you could put bans on people who have abused the voting system, giving 1's for no reason or low votes with no comments, banning their ability to vote.

All of this is slightly wonky so sorry if all of these have been said or are just plain weird.

Not wonky at all. I'm impressed by all of your suggestions. You really know how to think outside the box, Brooke! I love adding votes to the feed log so we can see where our favorite authors are voting, and I also loooove the idea of being able to turn on/off voting for your poems.

^ A few months ago or a year ago or something i suggested having a tab where we can select what we want to show in the feed log. Like if someone didnt want votes in it.

I like options. Pretty much my argue is if you can do something or have a feature is there a way to remove that feature / so you dont have to do something if YOU dont prefer it.

I also think that individuality is key for sites like these, if people feel unique it tends to attract newer members. If everyone feels the samethen the opisite happens... People no longer feel special. There needs to be ways where Newer poets can get their stuff read by older ones. Especially the ppl who were around 2008 or earlier

An idea would be that the more comments you got praised the higher your newest poems were featured on the main page (like under the nominations?) this would encourage commentiing (assuming people actually used the feature) heck have the most recent poet name who got a praised comment show somewhyere in the feed log for everyone to see.

Obviously an option to turn said thing off.
Think of it like facebook but a lot less options xD (I still find it overwhelming)

I have a lot of weird ideas that would require a lot of site revamping that i dont think is currently possible.

The idea would be to reward people who do not have time to read / comment all day long or post 400 poems a day. We would want a way so that the people who do post 1-2 poems a week might see their name up for 1-2 hours, and a system that would encourage people to read / comment on them While still not punishing those that do do 400 a day.

I still believe they are wonky and the curse would be to find a way to make it as costumizable while still keeping it it user friendly, and not gimping the ability of new poets to read / have their poetry read by older members.

I think ^ is the best way to actually cause the site to grow -

Anyways thats completely off topic now.

as far as the voting system is, ill let yall know if i think of something new that might be easier to make.

Wowza, I'm going to have to come back to this tomorrow, but you have given us lots of food for thought. Some unique, great ideas.

Make people comment and let the author rate the comment. From one star to 5 stars. The points can be added and commentators can use those accumulated points to run a contest or make a special space on the front page to showcase their work; like self promotion.

Like wise put a rating star for the poem too rather then having numbers have stars to rate them.

An idea was presented to the mods from outside this thread:
What if the display showed a count for "likes" but not for dislikes. What if dislikes were used instead, along with likes, to present potential poems that the member may find interesting.

We've been focusing on the impact the voting has on the AUTHOR of the poem. If the only thing shown is the number of likes, there is no negative issue for the author.

Now think how the like/dislike affects the VOTER: by using the selection to determine the taste of the voter, the site might actually be able to suggest poems the voter may enjoy based on their stated likes/dislikes.

This solution eliminates the problems of downvoting & upvoting and actually transforms the process to a win-win.

Actually...can someone explain to me how the current voting system works because I never could work it out. If you already have a 5 vote on a poem and the next person doesn't think it's worth a 5 so gives you a lesser score...how do you know what score it was?

It works by averaging out the votes for instance

if a poem had a rating of 4.2
and like 5 votes

then you know the total number of votes was 21 (4.2*5), and assuming 4 people were kind and voted a 5, and 1 person was brutally honest and voted you a 1, it adds up to 21, and a overall rating of 4.2, but it can also be 4+4+4+5+4, and there's more possibilities. so really you can't truly tell what the vote breakdown was, but since most people on the site generally vote a 5, you can work out the "lesser" votes that way.

Jeeez....I totally understand now....NOT!!

Let's work our way into this...slowly for this dimwit...OK...my latest poem had one vote of 5 (with a comment I will add) then it went to a 4.5 with no comment so...what number was the second vote???

4

the first person voted a 5, the second person voted a 4

this is a total of 9, for 2 votes.

so 9/2 = 4.5

and that's the rating

Sorry....I'm really stupid with math...if the third person also voted 4 would that change the rating in anyway??

Yep

so three people voted, and they voted 5, 4, 4 for a total of 13.

now the site takes the added up rating of 13, and divides it by the number of people who voted, int this case, 3.

13/3 = 4.33

and that, 4.33, will be the rating the website displays.

No, I'm just doing a piss poor job of explaining things.

When you have a mathematical moron as a student you were never going to win haha!!! Thanks for trying though :)

EDIT

Can you do the math and tell me how this poem ended up with a 4.3 rating? It has 4 comments and 7 votes...I'm assuming the commenters left a 5???

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/sad/poems.php?id=1253420

Total sum of rating = 4.3 * 7 = 30.31

5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 2 = 30, that divided by the seven is 4.28 which rounded is 4.3. that's one possibility.

it could also be

5 + 5 +5 + 5 + 5 + 1 + 4 = 30, which divided by the seven votes is 4.28, rounded up is 4.3.

there's a lot more possibilities.

I don't think this poem deserved a 1 or 2 vote but...it did seem to make a huge difference to the ratings which I think is a tad wrong.

Which is why i'm not a big fan of the numeric system. totally changes rating of the poem drastically when someone downvotes (asusming that's what they're doing), it'd be different if someone voted a 1 and left a comment explaining why, but that's quite rare.

i actually like the system proposed recently by having a like and dislike button, and show only the total number of likes, and use the dislike button to just rank the poem internally.

i remember checking out the person's profile after they posted that, it was at 5, downvoting seems to be after the win, and they hadn't signed in since they posted it, which sucks. I'd really like to read more of their work.

Yeah...but will people be able to say why they dislike it? If not, what's the real difference between the dislike button and voting a 1?

Sorry I'm packing right now so maybe I've missed something??

The dislike button will do absolutely nothing other then affect the ranking internally. so it might not make the "top rated poems section", but doesn't affect the overall "rating" or rather counter of how many people like the poem. it has a minimal effect on the author.

I don't really care ...what ever is good with me. I think we all have to remember that it's only one person's opinion that they didn't like your poem or..perhaps you just pissed them off and you'll never know why that resulted in you getting down voted...

Slight clarification
The internal ranking only has to do with the voting member's preferences in order to suggest poems he or she might like better. This entails a new window called SUGGESTED POEMS custom tailored to each member based on their likes & dislikes

(EDIT: To put the idea into one post I've copied the essence of the plan here from an earlier post)

We've been focusing on the impact the voting has on the AUTHOR of the poem. If the only thing shown is the number of likes, there is no negative issue for the author caused by dislike votes.

Now think how the like/dislike affects the VOTER: by using the selection to determine the taste of the voter, the site will actually be able to suggest poems the voter may enjoy based on their stated likes/dislikes.

This solution eliminates the problems of downvoting & upvoting and actually transforms the process to a win-win.

NOTE: The plan eliminates numerical voting entirely so that
- only likes are recorded publically while
- both likes & dislikes are recorded internally for the sole purpose of suggesting poems to the voter.

There is no motive to down-vote because it does not harm the author or downgrade the poem

There is a motive to avoid up-voting because honest answers are more likely to bring you suggestions of poems you really will enjoy.

How would this new proposed system affect the "Most Recent Top Rated Poems" section in each of the categories of poems? Would it go by number of likes? This seems like it would make it into a popularity contest.

Instead of likes and dislikes, why not utilize a feature that P&Q already has to suggest poems for people to read? There is already a favorite authors tab and a favorite poems tab. When people favorite an author it shows their new poems, comments, etc. under the account news. Why not create something similar for poems that people favorite? Use the favorite poems section to suggest other poems that are similar, or similar to Amazon and other sites, have the feature suggest "other people who put this on their favorites page also liked this..."

I don't like the idea of like vs dislike buttons, it doesn't actually give the author any feedback on his/her work. If someone just clicks the like button to see more poems like that, why should it be displayed at all, and how does it help the author improve his/her writing? The numeric system allows for a quantifiable measurement of what others think of a poem. There are already notes next to each number to suggest what each number represents: bad, poor, fair, good, and excellent. If people choose to vote 5 for everything, they are not actually voting on the quality of the work. if someone votes a 1 without leaving a comment, they are not interested in helping the author improve their writing. This site used to be about more than getting likes, it was a place to put your poetry up and receive honest feedback. While some of the honest feedback hurt, it allowed new poets and experienced ones alike to improve.

I like the numeric system, but I understand some abuse the voting system. If you are going to get rid of the old numeric system, consider not displaying a rating system at all. Change the "Most Recent Top Rated Poems" to a random display of poems posted in that category in the last 7 days to allow all to get some exposure. Change the "All time favorite poems" to a random display of older poems so people can enjoy older work that may has gotten buried over time. The "All time favorite poem" displays never seem to change anyway. Allow voting for the weekly contest, but only allow the judges to see what members have voted.

No rating system at all would be better than likes and dislikes. I feel likes will be even more meaningless than the current voting system.

No rating system at all would be better than likes and dislikes. I feel likes will be even more meaningless than the current voting system.

^ agree

If the threat of down voting is removed the comments can be constructive. This will help us all grow. Usually the amount of views is an indication of how good a poem is. I often find myself reading and rereading poems I like.