What is a true Haiku???

Now now, you're replying to me again, good man...

So, why should I bother, before seeing a real change?

^^
ps. I do believe it was this little nugget that set this thread alight; the one where you patronise us all and throw your toys out the buggy...again

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/poems/1247614

I meant after this.
Are we being childish again: Thanks God that I am not there anymore.

"throw your toys out the buggy...again" !!!!!

That sounds like true art, Lucero.

More ambiguity and giving way to the temptation of replying when you really ought not after what you promised. Come now, good fellow, I took you for a clever sort of chap...
To be honest, if you are good for nothing else, you are good for a laugh and you do somehow manage to keep these threads amusing. However, I am now entirely bored of your schoolboy philosophies and childish rants at the world around you and so I will say goodbye. The difference is, I mean it.

Goodbye, old bean.

It is somehow an interesting tale. It reminds me of Karel Capek sort of novels. They are quite phenomenon. Specially if you are into these kinds of stories. Specially the story about the composer in London and then the other about the poet. I use his stories in my arguments about music. That if musics by themselves are sort of speak have meaning or only arouse some senses that could be interpreted to meaning, though very vaguely and limited. In the second case the meaning is subjective. For example the same motion of sound that convey the flow of water, could be interpreted as walking in the park, or breeze, and so on. Capek story if it is not fictional, proves that music is related to object as worlds and sentences are. ( the title of what I wrote was "Concept and Music"

Haha if The ddavidd say so.

The fact of the matter is that I too question those changes. Not all the changes are good. Maybe from thousand changes one or two would pass through the extend of time. Human is by nature is fallible but history in its totality would not make mistake and renders a true judgement in the end. Still that doesn't mean that mistakes do not happen in history we still interpret the history according to our relation to the events, and take side. But every thing settles by the passage of time and after while we could see the true natures of everything that happened. This is why I mentioned: in the end.

If you knew about the expressionist and the vastness of his experience with colours and motions , his works would grow right in front of your eyes to a full fledged dexterous adult in a second.

Haha My experience of real life is so complicated that I can not portray a little corner of it without going to pages. You should have asked me this in my fortnight. I was craving so badly for questions like this there. But if I want to put everything together, there is no real life, only matrix, only the state of consciousness.

Hellon,

I understand your point about Basho, including that he was accepted as the greatest in the style. However, three and a quarter centuries have passed since his time and the genre has since been brought to the western world. The translation of Japanese by itself is not suitable for exact meaning of Haiku, much less the meaning of the original and when, exactly a human might be said to be present. Listed among his works as Haiku are poems that we would call Senryu, for example:

come children
let's go out and run
in the hail.

man who wears a straw mat -
what sage could he possible be?
Blossoming Spring.

Now, the real issue here is that in Basho's time there was no division. Senryu was adopted as a distinct form only during the life of Senryu Karai in the 1700s, about a century after Basho.

Guys, I was happy when Ben noticed the three of you are actually agreeing to each other in a thread. :-)

Anyway, I'd like to share a feedback I got from another poet named Albert Schepers on my waterfalls haiku. My original text was:

Waterfalls
Water splashing down
One, two, three, rhythm repeats
For eternity.

Albert, who writes a lot of haikus and has his personal research on them said that haikus basically do not have titles, which on my research I noticed Basho actually did not put titles on his haikus. What one can do, still according to Albert is, to get the first line, enclose it in square bracket and make it as the title.

He actually re-wrote my haiku into this:

morning rain
off the roof
drip drip drip

He said this will give the reader a simple image, like what a traditional haiku will do. Also give it a simple internal rhythm. I like his insights, I think he has great points. I think the original haiku form should really read like his example.

Personally, I think we can have our own take at haikus abiding to the structure and generally should be about nature and without human elements. However senryus are still under the haiku category. So even if it has human elements and you label it a haiku it's still okay.

It is so cute:: Rain rain rain. I did not think of that.

The best Haiku I have ever heard dear Liz and one of the most influential piece that ever affected me and my Mentor, A Shamloo is this, from Master Oshima Ryota (1718-87) ::

They spoke no words
the visitor, the host
and the white chrysanthemum

or my trance ::

No one uttered a word
not the host, nor the guest
neither the white chrysanthemum.

Dream the imposible dream::

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzm0SJc6GZs

and now back on track
discussing haiku again:-
interlude over.

she guides us onward
through mysteries of purpose
when is it haiku

Larry
"David Zimmerman" I could not find anything of his in internet but one picture. And whether him want to call himself impressionist or not, I can see his version of impressionist is a modern one. I see touch of Surrealism in that in my untrained eyes. Marsha Reeves I do not see the word of impressionist anywhere mensioned in her profile ( maybe my bad), but if there is, it is certainly is different to the original ones. their works seem all right to me but I can not find even a Wikipedia page of them. They could be local artist as far as I see.
I see that they are Modern Impressionist. Impressionist fallowed by... Cubism and surrealism... start from 50 to hundred or hundred and fifty years ago . They have still juice, sort of speak. But classical? They have long way to adapt to the modern century.

Another thing is that I start this discussion, responding to Hellon saying : "Maybe we need to get back to basics and become less complacent?"
See she is not saying as you claimed: "It seems to me they disagree with your premise that these art styles would lack a following if attempted by new artists these days." She was talking about return to the classical ones completely. Though I understand where she was coming from. Some of the new branches of art nowadays are appalling. Everyone likes to go back to the glory times, not knowing how more challenging were then and how only a hand full survived and their style became the dominant ones.

But any way to finish my argument whether there be any audience or not::
I think counting rhythm suffer the poetical inspiration in poetry. Of course I am talking about those who their writing is the resultant of inspiration instead of mastery of the language. I am not saying the second one is not important. Poetry only come to surface through the medium of language and a true poet must be prepared for the moment the inspiration strikes in order to be able to take advantage.
But there are a dialectical dynamism of contrast between these two, and a poet must be utmost careful to let the poetry win, instead of the music. The old poets they could not free themselves from the dominance of rhythm (music) in their works. Rumi has thousand and thousand magnificent rhymes, because he was a genius such as Hafez, Shakespeare, and Goethe... were. Though Rumi always said: these metrical lines and syllabus counting counting is killing Him. ( the funny thing is he even used rhythm saying that!!)
Because imagine if you are one of those who gets vision like Rumi while writing, when the vision strikes, you must stop the the inner rhythm of your flying to the deep of skies and and come back to the earth to count your syllabus mechanically. If anyone has ever experienced the true poetry, the state of heightened awareness, s/he would understand exactly what I am talking about, and how disenchanting this could be in the moment that ecstasy strikes.
If one has ever experienced this, s/he would exactly know what I am saying make sense, otherwise it would seems that I am just talking moonshine I risk that in onslaught of mediocrity because I want to give a hint to few possible talents like this that might exist in this site. Those who are blessed by becoming transcended while writing. And can go to the state of trance like Rumi or at list show some potentiality in that direction. I know Eluard and Lorca were like this too.
In the end those classical poets suffered greatly for paving the path for us. It is not for no reason the poetry started to declare its independence slowly from music from last century on. BECAUSE SHE WANTES TO BE AN INDEPENDENT ART. Though modern poetry would use music as one of the medium not the dominant one.

I apologise in advance but (and its not just me) I have to say something because I feel very strongly about it.

The purpose of this feed was to discuss what is a true Haiku for the purpose of clarification to people interested in knowing and it started off very well but then very disappointingly turned into a rambling showcase of personal ego rather than a pleasant discussion. Why anyone has to write reams and reams of facts about themselves that has no true bearing on the discussion I have no idea but this bombing of feeds is happening more and more often and people are getting fed up with it. Me included.

Well said Larry I agree. Best wishes Milly x

I entirely agree, Milly, and I apologise for my part in that.

*Haiku, sonnet, free verse, whatever - I think we have forgotten that they all come under the same banner: poetry. Let's all just write poetry and help each other if and when we can like defining what a true haiku is, for example...

I believe Hellon started this thread to have clarifications on what a true haiku is, and we are encouraged to share what we have personally learned about them. Whatever form of poetry may we be talking about here one thing is evident and thus we have learned: that we cannot entirely define what is a true haiku, senryu, etc. It's great that we are discussing poetry forms like this but it's sad that this is how it turned out.

I think Milly is upset why we expended the subject to art in general. What she likes is We should only talk about haiku Military style and do not deviate to any neighbouring subject.
I expended here the subject to poetry in general, all different style of painting. And because of that we are now in number 60. Look at the other thread , A very interesting thread that Darren opened and died in number 6 because we did not expend on the subject by going to the neighbouring one such as modernism , matrix and so on. I let that die because I was afraid you sending me another 5 page essay why did I deviated the subject. If you noticed I am not doing that because the dominant atmosphere in the P& Q. I however did it here in Hellon's thereat . We go long way and I know she did not mind.

Hellon said before her last post in here, encouraging me to elaborate even about about my personal believe in genera. Hellon said :: "So you study philosophy ddavidd...looking for the 'real meaning' of life..(I've highlighted real meaning because it's a previous name you've used) it's one thing to study it...another to experience it...what is your experience of 'real life'?" As you see she is even asking me to elaborate about the experience of my real life.

So Why are you so bothered Milly, you could just walk away and ignoring this thread which is just an insignificant line amongst so many others, specially since the owner of the tread herself encouraged it?

So if we accept Basho as the early master and see that he included both haiku and senryu within his legacy, should we take into account Senru Karai's attempt to clarify a single aspect of the form?

Frank, although your discussion on other things has been fascinating I have to agree with Milly. This thread went right off the rails. For some of your newer or even people that have been writing for years an actual discussion on what makes a haiku holds interest, including myself. I wanted to make sure I was following the proper form. Prior to this past 2 years the last and only time I had written one was back in high school, which by the way was more years than I care to think about. I totally understand you and Hellon are friends from a long time ago but perhaps if you want to discuss other things maybe do it between the 2 of you on a PM? Just a thought....

I do not agree Berenda, The thread was going to die after the Larry's explanation that we all agreed and found consensus. There was not any thing to disagree: Ben: "Good heavens. Myself, ddavidd and Hellon are all on the same thread and are practically in accord with each other. Now that's progression..."
So then because I did not talk to Hellon for four month I used the space to talk some other issues some vaguely related . and I apologised for it also. and Hellon seemed she didn't mind.
I am pretty sure if Darren was close to me as Hellon and I stated my argument there you would have said that I ruined thread and there was so many point there that were to be learned before I interrupted it . Now here we go, The thread with such a vibrant topic is dead in six, like all the rest of any topics.
But if you still think I interrupted this one. My bad I apologise again. But believe me The reason of Ben attack and now this one is not my singing off tune according to you. Me, Ben , Larry, and Hellon were talking about the same topic when Ben attack me again. His reason was not my deviation from Haiku topic , he liked where the topic was going. The reason is that he does not have strength to handle a good discussion and he is too irritable and self centre , self centre ness, sugar coded by smiles and How do you do-s.
To Prove my point I challenge him now openly, I invite Ben to have a discussion in any topic of your choice ( as long as I do know something about it to begin with) with me in front of all of you and witness how he would again attack me.

2nd attempt here:

So if we accept Basho as the early master and see that he included both haiku and senryu within his legacy, should we take into account Senryu Karai's attempt to clarify a single aspect of the form?
To explain: Senryu Karai differentiated the form from Haiku about 100 years after Basho's work, still over 300 years ago. Since then the haiku and senryu have been generally accepted as separate styles.

Larry, thanks for all the information on this topic - it really is fascinating to learn.

*ddvaidd - I say again, peace now and please stop mentioning my name after I have made clear I have had enough.

You insulted me two times with no fault of mine and never apologised. Your peace is a little one sided, wouldn't you say so??

So, why should I bother, before seeing a real change?

^^

Insults in answer to your collective insult. I say again. Enough - please.

you are a narcissist. You can absolutely see that it is you who insulting others and then turn around and misinterpret their concern as insult.

Bring any person in the world except Milly to clarify "why should I bother, before seeing a real change" as insult. In compare to what you've called me.
The improvement I mentioned there was just meant that I was still hopeful that you can improve your tolerance to a state that you can handle differences of opinion.

Absolutely, ddavidd - I am a fking narcissist - almost as arrogant and pompous as you! lol. The sad thing is, your arrogance stems from free verse that is almost the same with every write - and don't get me started on your overuse of explanation marks!!!!!! Try some variety before you compose your 'masterpiece'.
I admit, I'm a w~~~er! Bring it on you, Cretin! Nothing to lose? you ain't seen nothing yet, good man.
You are an arrogant, overbloated arse! And everyone knows it. I just don't mind saing it. Keep it coming, good man.

"almost as arrogant and pompous as you"
I know I am terrible, insulting you by saying : " why should I bother, before seeing a real change" after you trashed me totally in your fortnight.
The saddest thing is actually there are people who wold even support you.

The saddest thing is actually there are people who wold even support you.

^^

What a perfectly sweet thing for you to say.

Can anyone show how to adapt a uniquely Japanese concept in hokku?

kireji- known as a cutting word (hint: in English it may be more useful as punctuation)

Larry - now that's moderate

Now don't sweeten it for Larry too much. It does not look honourable to do that!!!!!

Okay Larry I have no clue, could you elaborate , as you know I am new in Haiku?

Why, why, why the explanation marks, ddavidd? for the love of god and all that is right in the English language....stop!

In the Japanese haiku the kireji is a method of either splitting the opposing images in the haiku or actually linking them or doing both at the same time. There are a list of words used for this purpose but in English we don’t have such literary devices. Instead you might use a comma or even a dash to provide a pause which causes you to mentally separate the two images. My question is how can we use this idea to both link and separate the images.
Of course the issue dwells on the final message - the ah-ha moment that ties the haiku into an intuitive package.

I hope you guys breathe for a while and appreciate what Larry is saying here. Thank you for sharing this Larry. So, in fact, the first two lines can also contrast each other? Wow, that's one learning for me, I always thought they should complement each other to build up the ah-ha moment. Isn't haiku a truly fascinating form? When you set the scene perfectly for the ah-ha moment, it is really what makes haiku stand out.

I am very curious if all of Basho's haikus follow the 575 format or were there some that didn't. I am thinking that maybe some really didn't, because he seems to capture the essence of nature as raw as it is. I have also read a lot of haikus from other poets and just like the example I shared which was written by Albert Schepers, I believe the haiku is more into the essence or the scene/moment that is captured in the most brief way. The very first haiku I wrote did not even conform to the 575 scheme.

Haiku#1

A crow wakes
Sound on the rooptop
The sun woke too.

What do you say, Larry?

Mel,
You’ve dipped your ink in the master’s Well - I bet Basho would smile.

When you get into syllable counting the West and the original are meters apart. Japanese poetry is based upon the “on” which is ussually, not always, an utterance yet which is not equivalent to an English syllable. This is complicated by having to read Basho in translation.