When the site breaks a tie in the weekly...

...can someone please tell me once again how it happens? I know, in the past mods have said it's random and..if that is the case shouldn't it be changed...the 'site' cannot have an opinion can it? It (the site) cannot think, so I'm wondering how can it judge?...how does it work? At the moment, it seems to me to have a lead weight leaning in one direction most of the time...

I have, in the past offered to break a tie if necessary...so far, I've been asked once...

Hellon, firstly I would just like to point out that i have lost as many tie-breaks as I have won ( if indeed it is me you are referring to in the lead weight comment) . However, I am all in favour of change. i was thinking about this last night. It certainly doesn't seem fair that if someone has a clear winning poem already, they should then scoop a second from two other potential winners purely by random. That's something that I would think could be easily programmed in but that requires Janis...
Can I also add that I am genuinely sorry to other members if they are frustrated also by me winning twice this week, especially as one was a tie-break and perhaps it would have been fairer to see a third winner up there. All I can say is that I am as helpless as anyone else.

*Edit. I would also like to point out that I have just served as judge this last term and during that time I did my best to award my points to a wide variety of people: men, women, older members and newer members and tried frequently to highlight people who weren't always recognised like they should be (in my opinion).Also, ironically, one of the poems I 'beat' in the tie-break was my there through my 10 point vote. Ultimately, I am as much inclined to see a variety of members on the front page as anyone.

Personal opinion

If it's a tie I think it should be decided by the number of likes a particular poem has.

If after this point it is still tied then a hidden (permanent) member should break it.

I do however realise it will take the invisible one to orchestrate such

Hence! I guess people better get used to frustration because there seems to be a distinct lack of interest from the sites owner.

After years of studying the situation here is my take on the tie breaker:

If there are two poems tied the win goes to the member with fewer wins.

If there are more than two poems, the number of wins drops out of the equation. At that point the number of likes, comments and views are factored into an algorithm known only to Janis.

I have long felt that a tie breaker ought to be set up. Some years ago the members voted to allow the site to break ties. New members have populated the site since then and may feel differently. I’m all for majority rule on the issue.

We could have a guest member break the tie or set up a specific formula to execute. Although the mods could break the tie I personally would prefer to avoid that choice.

At that point the number of likes, comments and views are factored into an algorithm known only to Janis.
^^^^^

So if a member posts a thank you on one of their own poems would that be counted in the equation? I've seen poems with maybe 20 comments on them, half of which are actually thank you comments from the author.

It’s possible, but I don’t know.

Well, my suggestion is that the members who feel the need to thank others for comments left, do it by pm for now just to see if that makes a difference.

My personal suggestion is that members continue to post, comment and reply in a way that suits and feels comfortable to them. Simple as that. I believe we had this discussion not long back on a thread and arrived at the same conclusion. Lots of people (myself included) do like to post a quick reply (which a pm isn't) to say thank you for your time and comment. For me, it is for no more devious a reason than manners - certainly not on the small chance that the amount of thank yous left will swing a potential tie-break my way. However, that is rather appealing now I think about it! I for one will continue to thank away :)
Ultimately, we are only having this discussion because Janis has deserted us. Nothing concrete or really worthwhile can be done until he returns. Not saying thank you to people for leaving a comment (like most do on most poetry sites) on the off chance it will affect the weekly is not the efficient or satisfactory answer in the long run, in my opinion. However, some people like the tie-break system so who knows what's right?

Lots of people (myself included) do like to post a quick reply (which a pm isn't) to say thank you for your time and comment.

^^^

What's the difference between taking time to say thank you in a pm or saying thanks in a comment...same amount of words IMO.

I would like to know if it does make a difference to the tie-break results and still suggest that members refrain from thank you comments on their own poems for now, because if it is an actual factor in the 'sites' decision then it is totally unfair.

If there are four comments on my poem, it is far quicker to write 'thanks' four times and 'post' than it is to message each individually, clearly. But again, it's down to the individual and I shall continue to that. But it's down to the individual, i suppose.
Also, wouldn't you need a direct contrast? ie, one with comments and one without - as in none whatsoever from anyone otherwise you'll still have comment amounts 'competing'

But you don't actually...you personalize them so, why not just pm them????

an example

http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/poems/1264333

Because it takes longer to go through the message system, Hellon

Look, i've said my piece and I've been here enough times to know where this leads. Do what you like and let others do what they like. Also, may I suggest you take a more direct hand in the results and judge, anonymously or otherwise.

Take care, Hellon

How much longer?

Anyway...when I leave a comment on a poem I never go back to check on whether the author has looked at it/agreed or not so if you left a thank you for a comment I may have left I probably would not have read it. On the other hand...if you had pm'd me there's always the guarantee that I will read it at some point.

. Also, may I suggest you take a more direct hand in the results and judge, anonymously or otherwise

^^^

Well that's exactly what I'm trying to do here, give everyone a fair go on this site...if I think there is something needing looked at in order for this to happen..if the underdog is needing a hand...I will put my hand up in stirring the pot Ben...we don't all have to have the 'cushy' jobs...you know:)

Get rid of the weekly contest. There problem solved. ;) :P

It's all a popularity contest nowadays anyway. :)

You all have missed the solution.
Forget comments, likes & what have you.
Vote on a method for tie breaking & avoid all these issues.

1) have mod-on-rotation ask a guest judge from a queue

2) set particular criteria - member with least wins

3) set particular criteria - most likes + “non-reply” comments

4) have mod-on-rotation cast subjective vote

Come up with other criteria or just say choose from these & I’ll start a new thread for a vote & send a mass message to get responses

I like solution 1

And Jamie, you always say the same thing until you actually win and then it's the best thing since sliced bread. To say it has become a popularity contest is an insult to the poets who win and accuses the judges of unfair bias which, naturally, is an insult to them too. You are not informed enough to be slinging that kind of mud about.

Hellon, thanks for raising this issue and bringing it to our attention again because I also don't like how it's become sort of "routine" for the site to break a tie and we just have to accept it or explain all over again that it is random (or as Larry said, some Janis algorithm if more than two). And Ben, great thoughts here too.

Personally, as this could also tie into Michael's current thread, I think it's neat and gives a kudos to whoever's poem is highlighted, regardless of how many points they acquire (channeling "Who's Line Is It Anyway" where the points don't matter lol).

But I can certainly understand frustration when it's by random that one poem stands out more perhaps for that week.

I don't feel comfortable as a mod deciding that or breaking that tie, so maybe we could have alternate or guest judges? In my opinion, I would like to steer away from basing the winner off the amount of likes or comments as it's already been mentioned that some poets reply directly to each comment. I usually reply once and include a general thank you because I don't like too much piling up but to each their own. I know some poets love writing a personalized reply and it's special to them. I don't think we should be the ones discouraging or monitoring that because frankly, comments shouldn't measure the mere worth or validity of a poem. I will also note that I often forget to "like" a poem after I've read or even commented. It's kind of an afterthought for me and I cringe a bit at the idea of associating popularity with likes (too reminiscent of Facebook).

I'm happy to go along with suggestion one and have already said I'm more than willing to put my name on a list.

In the meantime I will, once more, suggest that members refrain from making thank you comments on their own poems if, indeed, they are counted in the equation...I know some of you don't agree but I will ask these members...do you really want to win in this way when half or more of the comments counted in the tie break are actually your own?

Is there any opposition to having us start a pilot program using guest tie-breakers?
If not please PM any of the mods & we'll start a list.

Larry, i think thats a great idea have a list of random volunteer judges who are happy to step in at the last minute to tie break. It seems fairer than letting the automated system choose.

I apologise in advance because this is digressing from the point of this thread but ...
As an avid reader of most of the poetry on this site its interesting and fun for me reading not only the the poems but also the varous comments and often bantering responses to the comments because it all contributes to the experience and friendly feel of the site. I always try and thank people for taking the time out to read and comment on my poems not only because its good manners but because I'm genuinely touched that they liked my poetry. Milly x

Can I just say Milly that I also do not have a problem 'reading' the various comments that may accumulate on a poem but, if these comments count in the final result of who wins the tie break then..yes I do.

Ben's comment from the other thread...

I think the issue has become sidetracked a little, not sure though. Initially, the main point Hellon made was the seeming unfairness of the tie-break system, not how many times people win with clear points. That is down to the judges and no one has the right to tell anyone which way they should vote. I do believe, however, that if a winning poet (like me this week) has one clear winning poem, he should then be automatically eliminated from any tie-break he may then find himself in, no matter how many are involved, to allow for greater diversity on the front page. But doesn't that come round to Janis again?
I, too, Michael, have a dream...

^^^

I would like to make it clear that I never mentioned you in particular Ben...it was just a question as to how all poems in a tie break situation are viewed and how the result is formed. I do not have an issue with a poet having two or even three poems on the front page in any one week if they got there legitimately...my whole question was (and this was only because I was being fobbed off in the past with "we don't really know how it works...it's just random") can anyone tell me how the tie break is broken by the site? Now it seems, if there are more than two poems in the tie comments count and, I will reiterate, if half of them are by the author of the poem they should not be included.

EDIT

Just a thought for those member who feel the need to leave thank you comments out of good manners...maybe do them after the close off period for nominations in that particular week.

I think it's a great idea, Larry.