Weekly competition, how we feel

Hi all :)
My feelings,

the truth being, is that PnQ's members have such a familiarity and a community where real things happen. Where people interact, communicate and have various communication. Which creates mainly members that keep this site what it is.
Which brings me onto the weekly competition. Open to the world, which is pretty cool! When i first joined the site, i read poems that were winning the glory each week. I felt this wa s serious competition, and by the standard of what poets here write, actually blew me away.
I wanted to begin this thread, with my honest feelings. I really was overjoyed when i won my first competition, back then i felt honoured. The competitio each week, i feel the majority of stoic members do want to win. isnt that the point!? I certainly do, because it inspires me for whatever reason, but also if i dont, also gives me inspiration. Its so nice to feel something as a writer, in this sphere it really does.

I think at times, when a member wins the weekly competition - do they really care or not? Because on the weekly competition thread, its mainly regular members that show their appreciation for judges, and congratulate winners and HMs. This poetry website is infectious, i certainly feel it, and its great!

In order for more excitement, diversity and to keep the site alive, we need the nest generation of us old school members, as we werent here from the start. I really do not feel new members come to this thread much. Its not an order or policy, but the truth is you just should want to get involved and become part of a fantastic poetry website :)

The way i feel is that many of us older school members do the best we can, to enjoy what has been created by us! I was a new member once, i jouryened with myself and writing, and this site has helped me without a shadow of a doubt. Its a site that needs involvement and a little commitment., and the future of the site will always depend on new members to become involved, its the only way. I sense many regular members offere to be judges, and thats a nice rsepect, but i feel very few new members since i have been here have become more involved. maybe i have got it wrong, however i really feel the competition has a huge value and i love it in honesty.

Such a rant, but just nice to feel safe to post this to you all, thats cool :) xx with love, M

Michael,
It’s a refreshing experience to read your thread. I agree that the weekly is an invigorating contest. I am happy to report, though, that we do have new members who volunteer.
Thanks again for your enthusiastic discussion!

It is a fact that whatever you do in life for 99% of us at any given time there will always be someone better or worse at it than we are. That will never change so being content with being your own personal best makes for a much happier life.

On this site there are a small number of people who consistently write at quality levels that most of us can only dream of but who by their presence and continual support of this site inspire others to strive for improvement in their writing.

In an ideal world we would have competition tiers based on ability levels but in the real world only the same top three would ever win.

What I love about the weekly competition is that because of the three tier voting system there is always a chance for a HM or Win for everyone because poetry appreciation is very personal and if more than one judge likes your poem then you have a chance. (In the retail world its the quantity of people who like your work and buy it that makes a best seller)

It is a shame that the system doesnt allow for winning ties because it can be demoralising if you rarely have a win or if it would have been your first win but we all know that this isnt possible at the moment. So no point in worrying about things that cant be changed.

There is so much more that is great about the site the best thing of all being the people. People who freely give their time to moderate and judge each week. Those who set and manage competitions or discussions on the blogs and who read, comment and encourage and support people on the site.

These are the people who make this a site like no other on the web. Who make this place home.....

Well said, Milly.

Ideally, the weekly could be tweaked in my opinion but (at present) it is what it is and it's only a very small part of the site as a whole and the positivity that surrounds it. Ultimately, we really could do with Janis making an appearance...

Before I joined (rejoined) this site I hadn’t written in ages, and I’ve been writing weekly since! The competition inspires me to be a better poet, and if I had more time, I’d devote more to the site. I enjoyed being a judge but it was difficult to do every week. What’s interesting most is that the judges change a lot, who of course favour different styles of poetry. The community here is special, and the regularity of the same poets winning might be demoralising, but it should really act as a push. It did and does for me, even if my overly opinionated self doesn’t always agree with the winning poems. :D

When I was new to this site, I saw other poets as superior, and felt in competition with them. It helped in a way, because essentially a contest is a competition, it helps us improve. Lots of people mightn’t admit that, but it’s healthy (for me at least) to critique, read, comment, try to better yourself and even give suggestions. It would be nice to see a ‘new face’ on the front page every week, it’s always exciting reading new poets and poetry...

Nice thread Michael :)

Thanks, Michael for sharing your feelings about the weekly competition. All comments, so far, are valid and I agree.
Imagine this site without a weekly competition and without encouraging comments. . .

That's right, it's a bleak place. The contest and comments help to encourage members to write, and they do, posting poems daily.
A helpful rule of thumb, regarding comments, return a comment for a comment. If we all applied this rule there would be increased activity.

How to showcase newer members? Hmm?
If around a dozen successful members agreed to not post poems for one week each month, this week could be devoted to another 'tier', so to speak. Maybe worth a try and it doesn't need Janis to implement.

The 'improvements' that Janis made fell well short of our wish list. This was a shame as this would have increased members and browsers alike - ultimately, this would have increased profitability. A wasted opportunity.

I love PnQ, but like many others, I would like the activity of 10 years ago return. We have a unique family spirit here and it's that warm community feel that keeps us coming back. New members want that and more. They and we deserve that. Janis, come back and try again.

I find this thread and the various perspectives to be very interesting and I think all make a valid point.

I'm coming up to my second year as a member and I've found it to be an amazing community. I'm not now not now nor have I ever been a member of another site. Can't see that happening to be honest. Admittedly I've had a minor spat or two in that couple of years (everyone has a nerve that can be tweaked) but things settle and return to normal.

A while after I first joined mighty mouse (aka Ben) commented on one of my poems and added nominated at the end. I had to ask what he meant as I had no clue about the weekly contest at that point.

Since then I've had a couple of poems win and one or two HM's. This still amazes me given the quality of work by others. Do I like a win or an honourable mention? Dam right I do, but I find the fact that a poem has been entered an even bigger accolade. Especially when you consider the people who are nominating it.

As a somewhat newbie compared to many, I still think the site could be better set out in order to give new people a better insight of what it has to offer. Took me a good couple of months to fully understand its potential.

With regards to things I've nominated and voted for while judging. I tried to be very diverse especially when nominating. I didn't nominate the newest ones posted but would trawl through subject matters seeking a wow. This proved tiresome as not many new poems pop up in the fringe topics (fantasy and mystical for example). But if you don't pop an eye in every now and then you miss some brilliant works. Yes I know such things are not to everyone's taste.

I like Michael's idea of taking a step back (although I wouldn't consider myself successful) I would happily do this if it show cased new members. The only down side I can see to this idea is people like me. I write spontaneously.

Sometimes I have a bit of a block and slump (Especially if a new season of supernatural is released) and at other times I can write 2 or 3 pieces per night. Good or bad they all end up here. However I don't wanna mass post poems.

I've seen many do this and it cracks me up. I've written 3 this week and posted em which I feel guilty about. I'm also nearly finished a fourth, but that can wait.

It's a shame we can't do some kind of show case event to highlight new members

Anyways cracking thread and thoughts

Regards to all

Craig

I like Michael's idea too. There are a couple of problems in my opinion though. 1) how do we decide who is a 'successful' member? Where is the line drawn? And there's bound to be endless disagreements there. Also, despite being a successful member, doesn't that person have a right to post as and when they choose?
And 2) if you took maybe 10/12 poets out of the equation that week, there may not be too many poems posted as undoubtedly the most successful members tend to be the most active (not always though)

I too have loved reading everyone's thoughts and perspectives on this (thanks for this kickstarting this thread, Michael).

Just my 2 cents before I settle in for the night. I really resonated with what Craig said about writing spontaneously. I don't "plan" when I write, nor do I plan when I post. If I feel strongly about the piece I either just wrote or have been contemplating, it's a matter of if this helps me share, if I'm ready, if it's cathartic etc.

I am wary of ever restricting other poets or even telling them to wait a week to post, as I know firsthand some poems demand to be written and that emotion is fresh and pure and honest... and I post it to tell my truth. My journey.

It would be fun and refreshing to somehow showcase new poets but I have seen lately a few poets get the ball rolling so to speak and truly react and respond (like S.T.A.R. for example). I've reached a point in myself that I am almost apathetic about the weekly contest in regards to myself. It was kind of exhilarating at first to be nominated or such, but now, it doesn't matter to me. And it's totally awesome and cool if it matters to you and gives you a lift or encourages you to write more... if anything, the contest inspires me to seek out other poets and get their word out. Make sure that if they have something to say and I'm moved by it, that it can reach others. But with myself and where I'm at now, I write to tell my story. And I'm not here to worry about points or nominations. That doesn't excite or motivate me. Simply having a platform to share this and be vulnerable, whether or not others read or leave comments, that's enough for me.

Perhaps my perspective has changed though after being on PnQ for 11 years. Not trying to invalidate others of course. Some new ideas and ways to highlight others' work is always welcomed :)

Other than my hiatus of 6 months - a year I've been a member for 8 years and while I appreciate where everyone is coming from, I wonder if there may be a different solution. Maybe not stepping back from posting but judges agreeing to try more diligently in nominating and voting for pieces from lesser known or newer poets? Or perhaps having two sets of judges (one for more popular and one for newer poets?)

Sorry it's a shorter response but I think ally other opinions have been touched on by others so far :)

I like the suggestion of sets of judges. There could be 2 for all members and 2 for newer members only, the last judge could vote freely.

Just an idea or two....What about the first week of every month all the nominators nominate only people who dont yet have a HM or win under their belt and / or who joined in the last 6 months? Its easy to check and the judges can just double check when they read the poems?

Thats not asking everyone else not to write just asking them to hold off publishing until the next week?

Or...

Why not have a monthly competition as part of a regular discussion feed where anyone can nominate just one new persons poem saying why they liked it (then the current judges or moderators judge privately on the best) and the winner get posted as that months winning newbie? That way each new person gets the opportunity to be seen in a more publicly read place?

Just an idea or two....What about the first week of every month all the nominators nominate only people who dont yet have a HM or win under their belt and / or who joined in the last 6 months? Its easy to check and the judges can just double check when they read the poems?

^^^^

How would you regulate members who delete their accounts and instantly come back with new ones? Also, members with multiple accounts?

Each judge is at liberty to award poems based on their own criteria. As it is we struggle to get judges, so personally, I'm happy it keeps the contest alive; albeit in a controversial way.

I have a dream:
One fine day, on a colourful, vibrant site we will have 100's of regular members, and judging will be carried out in a way that is fair for all.

I think the issue has become sidetracked a little, not sure though. Initially, the main point Hellon made was the seeming unfairness of the tie-break system, not how many times people win with clear points. That is down to the judges and no one has the right to tell anyone which way they should vote. I do believe, however, that if a winning poet (like me this week) has one clear winning poem, he should then be automatically eliminated from any tie-break he may then find himself in, no matter how many are involved, to allow for greater diversity on the front page. But doesn't that come round to Janis again?
I, too, Michael, have a dream...

*Having said all the above, I am aware that issues have a way of (rightly) evolving and branching off. But even dealing with one thing at a time on this site (like the tie break) seems next to impossible. I personally feel whether poems should be given points on merit or to create diversity on the front page is an issue for a different day. Also, it is a harder one to solve becasue no one will ever agree on that.

I agree your comments Ben, the comments have got a bit side tracked. So apologies for my contribution to that. (I got a bit carried away with thoughts of how to help support some of the fledglings who haven't yet received a HM or win but who still need encouragement but that's probably something for a different feed).

It is nice to read about how people feel about the weekly competition and I think from what I have read here most people have the same idea that on the whole its a good thing that nobody wants to lose but that there are clear areas that could be improved when Janis is next available. Milly x

As for tie breaking, please refer those issues to the other thread "when the site breaks a tie"

No, Ben, not all solutions depend on Janis. We can do much here. For example, if the situation arises as you suggest like this past week, the mods can handle that issue given the majority of the members decision that you want us to do so.

Can I just steer you over to the tie break thread for my response on this as this thread is not about the tie break situation...

I have been a member of this site for a while now (taking my previous account into er...account)
Since day one the weekly contest has been a bone of contention.
It has and always will be part popularity contest.
When judging previously I found the same people nominated by the same group. This was the Same 6 years ago as it is yesterday. It evolves slightly as new faces are welcomed into the fold and older members become inactive.
That being said 'it is what it is'

I've always thought that friendship's are struck up through mutual enjoyment of a similar poetry style.
If that particular band are more active they would naturally read each others pieces first and nominate if they were 'blown away'
Those same people would probably also judge, purely because they are active and keeping the site trundling along. Although they aren't able to vote for a poem they nominated they still have a particular taste of poetry they enjoy. Hence the pool of winners sometimes is as limited as the gene pool in Norfolk.
(I'm from Norfolk so can say that happily)

If seeing new poets grace the front page is important to you then it's your responsibility to seek these out and nominate them. However just because they are new doesn't mean they are good or contest winning worthy. I bet I'm not the only one on here who would say my poetry from the first few years sucks balls compared to some of my later scribblings.

I think the site struggles because there is only so much back slapping you can do before it becomes tiresome.
Back at the beginning poets were brave enough to criticize your efforts, in fact one of my winning poems had a thread dedicated to it being not worthy of winning the front page.

How I miss those days

Anyway back to my hole.

Darren,
Back in the day it was expected to have your poems critiqued. We spent days on each other's poems in my old club giving critical feedback. It was not only appreciated but almost required. I too miss those days.

Darren, you have hit the Norfolk nail on the head. We can't possibly get the old days back no matter how hard we try. Without fresh blood we will be a world of poets travelling on a bus, soon to be a mini-bus.

From my observation everyone is too afraid to criticize a poem anymore. I think this for two reasons. The world and poets are oversensitive now. Two when ever a poem is criticized the person who is being honest is gained up on. That goes back to the friends thing though. You become friends with someone you defend them no matter what even if a poem is crap. It sucks because why post poems if you don't want criticism? And people will argue that there is a nice way to be honest, but that is not true at all. We as artists are our own worst critics, however when someone says one bad word about their poem they become sensitive. Thinking about it the only people who have criticized a poem on here for the last few years are you Darren, myself and hellon. I cannot suggest anything that i or others haven't said before, but unless janis hands other the site to someone on here, i feel like it will shut down soon enough and if it happens it's been one hell of a ride.

...soon to be a scooter

When judging previously I found the same people nominated by the same group. This was the Same 6 years ago as it is yesterday. It evolves slightly as new faces are welcomed into the fold and older members become inactive.

^ Well said Darren and thank you for confirming something that I've always thought to be true but have always been fobbed off when I've tried to broach the subject.

When I was first on this site, I, and a guy called The Tasteless were known for being quite critical, and when I returned here in November, the first few weeks I left criticisms as I used to. I got the impression that not many people wanted, or appreciated it being told they could change certain aspects of their poetry. I’ve never received a single critique of anything I’ve posted here, and whilst it’s great to be be back, I miss the days when people helped, gave feedback, suggested things to each other. I’ve stopped leaving longer comments because it just seems like a waste of time. In fact, save from a good few wonderful people, it’s a little lonely and empty sometimes. I think we mostly agree on this. As a disclaimer, I don’t comment to receive comments - it was just an observation.

Yes...I remember both of you and your critiques...many older members took offence but I loved it...hey..you know, you guys were still in school and therefore had the 'know how' of up to date teaching methods which included poetry. Sometimes I would not agree with your thoughts but that mattered none...at least I knew back then you had really read my poem....

I have to be entirely honest, I personally believe that in any given week, the best poems posted usually do receive a nomination at least and very few excellent poems go unnoticed, either through the awarding of a win or an hm. There are a few poets/poems that constantly seem to go under the radar, and I know that I for one do my best to nominate/award points (when judging) to those when I can. But again, no one has any right to complain about a person's nomination choice or judging choice. If you don't like it, nominate more and new people and judge more to directly affect the result. Too many people on here whinge whilst never actually lifting a hand to help.

i guess as far as the critiquing goes, the problem is, we are all amateur poets and sometimes 'suggestions' come in such a way that as an author you just feel 'who the bloody hell are you to speak about it like that!' There is certainly room for more suggestions and I know I for one can be honest and say it's only when judging that I feel liberated enough to point to anything that maybe improved.
Poets are sensitive people, yes Jamie, and that has always been the case; it isn't new. I think the trick is to remember that and do our suggesting in a way that takes into account the 'hard', 'soft', young (especially) and old.

^^^

Are you serious? 'who the bloody hell are you to speak about it like that!'

Now that is the whole reason I don't comment very much these days....

It was said with a little bit more jest than you make it out there Hellon and I was talking about the particularly offensive ones, not the polite suggestions and help that we would all like to see more of. When I first joined this site a few years ago, there were comments written by certain members on some of my poems which were not constructive but literally just rude.
Hellon, may I ask politely why you are trying to twist my words and make my comment look something other than it is?

No..I am not twisting any of your words Ben so do not try that tactic again.

Your condescending attitude is generally what pisses me off ...most of your comments on this thread start with "I"

Hellon, you are too often poisonous on this site and focus too often on the negative even on a thread that was started positively and constructively. You have twisted my words and taken them out of context on purpose, seemingly to start a confrontation which I do not want at all - let me make that clear.
Do you know, you are the only person I have ever 'met' that could start an argument with herself.
Also, over the last three comments it is very clear to everyone which of us became rude and immoderate for no reason at all. I have written nothing that could possibly warrant this attack by you.
I won't get drawn into another row with you; I'm passed all that. I'm sorry you feel this way.

Any judge's mantra:

Don't award a poem because the author is little known.
Don't award a poem because the author should have won last week.
Don't award a poem because the author is your friend/someone going through a tough time, etc
Don't award a poem because it was a good try/showing significant improvement etc
Don't award a poem because it is an important topic to you.
Don't award a poem out of spite or sympathy.
Don't award a poem to be fair to the other poems.
Don't award a poem to prove any point.

If you do award a poem, award the poem. Not the author, not your agenda. The poem. Always, the poem.

Can we have that in writing...
Oh, we have, now!

“The poem. Always, the poem.”
^^

O:

Agree!

“Without fresh blood we will be a world of poets travelling on a bus, soon to be a mini-bus.”

Vampires came to mind after reading “fresh blood.” Subconsciously, I read your line as “without fresh blood we will be a world of poets bound to perish.”

Hehe poets are vampires as per my subconscious.

Hmm... if I try to see it from this perspective, then is as if poets survive by sucking fresh blood but there’s no fresh blood...
Also, if poets are vampires, then poets can’t see the light of the sun directly, if they do, they become ashes.

I don’t know where I’m going with that, anyways,

I like what Abby wrote.

i like what Abby wrote and I like what you wrote, Lucero, lol. Weird and wonderful as ever.

I just gotta say that I love your train of thought, Luce! That could make a cool prompt or prose piece.

And glad you shared the mantra, Abby. I feel like we could reference it as THE Mantra. None of us judging are perfect but I think reminders to remain as unbiased as humanly possible are still important.

Oh. I also wanted to add (excuse my rambles, I still need another round of coffee though it's the late afternoon) that I think perhaps it's about how we read a piece: are we zeroing on technicalities like grammer or format or are we focused on the emotion and the voice? Though they often influence each other... I notice lately that I connect to the emotions and vulnerability of the poet sharing. It's not that I'm afraid to be "harsh" or worry that I would offend, it's that the center point of me reading poetry is listening to the poet's story. To me, it's not a matter of sensitivity, as pointed out that we are all sensitive to some degree... more so feeling the poet specifically wrote it in their style and unless they're directly asking for critique, I look at the poem as a whole and don't automatically go to analyze. Although that can be healthy and a fresh perspective to dig a bit deeper into the "bones" of the poem!

It's interesting though how we all perceive poetry and one thing I've noticed, like take Danny for example (if he doesn't mind), is what seems like a natural ability to critique by pointing out what works and what doesn't. Not that negativity on its own is meant as an attack, just that critique can depend on a balance of the author's strengths and weaknesses.

If that made ANY sense at all :P

MA, I agree entirely. Like I was saying, what I meant by unfair critique was those who come along and just say 'that's crap' and make off with no explanation. It doesn't happen so much here anymore thankfully, but I know it used to be a bit of an issue.
All of us have things to learn poetically, and we can all become more 'expert' at what we're trying to convey but only with actual help and suggestions.

Of course I don’t mind, MA! I wouldn’t say natural ability though, more opinionated drivel (:P) based upon 3 years of teaching English language and 3 years of writing lectures - it was a ‘skill’ that was necessary in writing workshops. I always try to encourage as well as suggest, though sometimes I understand some poetry may be pure catharsis, and critiquing is a little superfluous in that case. Either way, I need to keep critiquing as I’ve not the ability to nominate poems on the site yet!